Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: rocker59 on March 30, 2015, 12:46:32 PM
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Pete,
Have you seen or heard about this one?
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd70/BNWombat/BNWombat010/image.jpg1.jpg)
http://advrider.com/forums/showthrea...83358&page=333
wisejangrae:
"The guy was riding with me (& 1 other on our way to Doonies place)
the bike is a 1 owner, well looked after, I think just shy of 20 000 Km
I can tell you he NOW rides a Tiger"
"The failure took place on your average major type dirt road, the type any 2wd car could travel.... not a rock in sight.
Speed certainly not excessive approx. 50 to 60 Kph.
Bike certainly not overloaded.
Bike has only ever been ridden solo.
Like some / most large ADV bikes this bike has spent 90% of it's time on sealed roads.
Yes there were some Pot Holes *just your average small ones.
The rear tyre is not damaged, nor loose pressure.
The rear rim has no dings / dents
As stated previously this is a one owner bike and has not been involved in any accident in the past.
Where the Arm failed "just happens to be straight through the middle of a 5 to 6mm hole (Factory) drilled to hold a plastic fastener"
Also fact, the resulting accident could have been much worse this could have taken place at 100 Kph on anyone of Vic's pot holed bitumen roads with a vehicle coming head on."
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Ladies and gentlemen,
let the handwringing begin.
:pop
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Ladies and gentlemen,
let the handwringing begin.
:pop
I'm sure this one will be right next to the flaming BMW rear drive, to survive on the Internet forever .... !
Lannis
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That's why I was wondering if Pete had seen or heard about it.
Looks to me like the guy was probably riding it way outside its intended mission.
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additional discussion about it in the Stelvio threadfest at ADVrider. Some input from some WG regulars:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=26408277#post26408277
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I'll put some JB Weld in that hole. That will put a stop to that possibility.
:D
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Oh woe! Woe betide CARC owners. Your riding a ticking time-bomb. These CARC things are the worst designed, crappiest built, most failure-prone work of the devil ever.
Dollars to doughnuts there's a bit more to this. The week before he was probably riding down a rock covered mountain at speed. Look at the tyre, that's an off-road tyre. He goes places the dirt road and bitumen brigade don't.
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Strange, because that bike is currently listed as a repairable write off on the Pickles Auction site and the description of it says that it is impact damaged due to a crash I believe?
http://www.pickles.com.au/damaged-salvage/item/-/details/C2012--Moto-Guzzi--Stelvio-1200-4V-NTX-ABS--Motorcycle/252412894
Pete
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There is surprisingly little damage to the left side of the bike. That tells me that this was not a side impact (the right side looks good too). I can only deduce that the swingarm broke due to an impact from below, like being airborne and coming down on a big rock. The wheel is still in good shape with no obvious deformation. You can break darn near anything if you stress it enough. In this case it would appear that the rider was well beyond any reasonable expectation for a 650 lb + motorcycle. Oh, the BMW guys will be hooting about this...if only to distract from the rear drive problems they have had.
Peter Y.
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'in the name of the Father, the Son and..."
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"Denial ain't just a river in Egypt" ;D
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looks like it broke a seam.
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looks like it broke a seam.
There ain't no seam at that point in the swingarm. I have one and have looked closely...no seam.
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Certainly looks like the last tour was an adventure! Maybe a carc bike shouldn't be rock hopping.
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I know the bloke that wrote that (not the owner), might see him today but as in post worst hits we get here tend to be monster potholes on bitumen roads, far better to break it slowly on a dirt road than fast on a pothole.
Like riding in the rain, dirt roads are unavoidable if you want to travel in Aus, where they were (Briagalong) is foothills of High Country, Graeme is 250 miles from home there, he would be on graded roads, as he says 2wd car roads, not a rock in sight. I go far deeper in on the ol dunger without fear of breaking anything
Will report back if I see him but I don't doubt the story, no reason for him to make it up, he actually likes my bike and was thinking of getting a Guzzi himself.
Might be a bargain at auction, you got a spare swingingarm Pete ?
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Swingarm here is dear as poison. Overseas? Not so much. Still questioning why if it was a failure it is listed as impact damage.
Sky not falling, nothing to see here. If there was a problem this would be commonplace. It isn't. The Stelvio has been in production since 2008. If there was a problem with the swingarm design in this application we surely would of heard about it sometime in the last seven years? Those with a pathological dislike of anything 'Modern' will of course jump on this as 'Proof' of a flawed design. S'fine, matters not a jot to me or anyone else who prefers the benefits of the 21st century.
Pete
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The jokes on Guzzi of course; I hear it now... Guzzi put the "R" in CARC in the wrong place. :beat_horse
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This old swing arm (Paralever) has been rolling down the highway for over 140,000 miles. I suspect it might be a bit more delicate than the CARC design, however, no issues, aside from a driveshaft (u joint) that failed at 121,000 miles.
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/bcgilligan/Montana%202009%20all%20pix/HudsontoMontana2009018Small.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/bcgilligan/media/Montana%202009%20all%20pix/HudsontoMontana2009018Small.jpg.html)
There's several thousand Beemer single sided swingarms out there, and aside from the pic of the 'flaming' one, I haven't seen too many pics of failed units, at least not any that look like the CARC pic in this thread. I have to agree .... the Stelvio must have hit something in its lifetime that fractured the swing arm.
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BMW have never been able to build a gearbox, at least not in living memory.
Pete
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Moments after reading this thread, I rushed purposefully into the garage, threw my arms around the '03 Stone Touring and whispered, "I'll never trade you in for one of those high-falutin' CARC things, no matter if they should come with hydraulic valve adjustment".
Ralph
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GUILTY...until proven innocent..........a ccording to several BMW MC owners. ::)
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:bow
The jokes on Guzzi of course; I hear it now... Guzzi put the "R" in CARC in the wrong place. :beat_horse
;D ;D
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OK, I saw original poster, Graeme, today, not a hater, can ride a bike, he's ordered a WON-Z from me, rides in rain & dirt roads but not trail riding, doesn't break shit
I only missed the Stelvio owner by a couple of hours, they're good mates
Long story short
Bike never been dropped, owner did ride to rallies, camping gear in boxes as expected of this type of bike. Never 2-up, never overloaded (in Graeme's words, to me the damn thing's overloaded in showroom). He's not fast nor daring, very average, no mad riding at all.
Was exactly as post says, in Graeme's mirrors, suddenly wildly out of control for no obvious reason, then fell
Instantly diagnosed as broken, trucked out, only observation that crack was around P clip hole (for ABS wire ?)
To their credit local importer offered him brand new complete bike as goodwill (I'm sure a swingingarm would satisfy warranty requirements)
Badly shaken, he didn't feel he could trust one again and took money instead.
End of story
Still questioning why if it was a failure it is listed as impact damage.
Those with a pathological dislike of anything 'Modern' will of course jump on this as 'Proof' of a flawed design. S'fine, matters not a jot to me or anyone else who prefers the benefits of the 21st century.
Pete
He fell off, must be other marks on bike
I like modern, just organised test ride on new KTM, I like to know what's state of the art, single sided shaft drive bikes are not. If I jump from old, will be for lighter not heavier
Cheap buy for someone who wants one though, I'm just left wondering why JSA didn't take it in, fix it, let fewer people know it happenned
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Oh, let's guess? Probably because they and anyone else who likes post Piaggio Guzzis are either stupid or crooks?
I still don't buy it but I haven't seen the bike.
Pete
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Oh, let's guess? Probably because they and anyone else who likes post Piaggio Guzzis are either stupid or crooks?
I still don't buy it but I haven't seen the bike.
Pete
I've nothing to sell, nothing for you to buy, ask at JSA
Seeing pictures & hearing first hand story enough for me
Shit happens, it did.
Deny it all you want, the earth is round & heating up.
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Not denying it may of happened but there has to be a back story. The fact JSG offered a new bike or refund would, to me, indicate integrity. Of course if you are a conspiracy theorist? Well, the opportunities ares ion. Now! Where's my tinfoil hat?
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Dollars to doughnuts there's a bit more to this. The week before he was probably riding down a rock covered mountain at speed. Look at the tyre, that's an off-road tyre. He goes places the dirt road and bitumen brigade don't.
Brilliant, guess you're a detective ?
At least the importer took it as it is, sometimes the innocent get a fair go.
All's well that ends well but the accusations linger on the net.
Tyres ? FFS, they get sold by the bucketload in Australia, std equipment on 2015 KTM's road registered "Adventure bike"
I go further on std road tyres but nearly every overloaded pig of a bike has them fitted, just how it is, marketing.
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Gosh, I wish I was you. You're so clever and knowledgable. Is there anything you don't know? I doubt it. :bow
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I hope the swingarm is returned to the factory for met. analysis. It could easy be a one off casting that had a hair line crack that eventually gave way. Whatever the cause it would be reassuring to know a complete investigation took place.
Either way it must be a very rare occurance which would not put me off a CARC model.
Edit: I note the bike is on a auction site. From what I have said above that is not acceptable unless the true cause is known already.
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Shit does happen in any brand. Being such a rare occurrence does make you wonder but a bloke I know was riding his Suzuki SV650S which he'd owned from new, never dropped, 20,000K's , well ridden but looked after, never been on dirt, when the fork headstock cracked off the frame and threw him down the road. He got nasty gravel rash but luckily it happened at slow speed.
The cops wanted to charge him with neg driving because it had to be trailered. Crazy blanket rules. But suffice to say, there are thousands of these bikes that never have any such problem, in fact it would be amazing to find one other case. You just have to be unlucky I spose.
Fractures like that carc could possibly occur from an initial scratch in the wrong spot. Being a big hollow tube with a hole drilled at that point, there might be something there, some kind of a deep scratch or score, that started the thing over a long time.
If anyone is worried they should have close inspection of their carc in this regard.
But I'll be surprised if anyone else has the same problem.
I do believe the story though and it seems wrong to make out that the owner is a bullshitter. Especially with no other evidence than the story which sounds totally plausible. All castings are not equal, we should accept this.
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I hope the swingarm is returned to the factory for met. analysis. It could easy be a one off casting that had a hair line crack that eventually gave way. Whatever the cause it would be reassuring to know a complete investigation took place.
Either way it must be a very rare occurance which would not put me off a CARC model.
Edit: I note the bike is on a auction site. From what I have said above that is not acceptable unless the true cause is known already.
If I were the factory, and knew something was getting this much publicity, I'd have the swingarm back for metallurgical analysis too. Could have been a flawed casting; could be that the new mounting hole for the ABS line created a stress riser in exactly the wrong place.
At any rate, it hasn't put me off my CARC model. Our Stelvio carried a 500 pound payload (an overload in anyone's book) over some of the roughest potholes I've seen on the truck-hammered roads in Nova Scotia approaching the Cabot Trail, and if it survived that it'll survive anything ....
Lannis
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Oh hell.......now I "NEED" to go on a diet ;D
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Shit does happen in any brand. Being such a rare occurrence does make you wonder but a bloke I know was riding his Suzuki SV650S which he'd owned from new, never dropped, 20,000K's , well ridden but looked after, never been on dirt, when the fork headstock cracked off the frame and threw him down the road. He got nasty gravel rash but luckily it happened at slow speed.
The cops wanted to charge him with neg driving because it had to be trailered. Crazy blanket rules. But suffice to say, there are thousands of these bikes that never have any such problem, in fact it would be amazing to find one other case. You just have to be unlucky I spose.
Fractures like that carc could possibly occur from an initial scratch in the wrong spot. Being a big hollow tube with a hole drilled at that point, there might be something there, some kind of a deep scratch or score, that started the thing over a long time.
If anyone is worried they should have close inspection of their carc in this regard.
But I'll be surprised if anyone else has the same problem.
I do believe the story though and it seems wrong to make out that the owner is a bullshitter. Especially with no other evidence than the story which sounds totally plausible. All castings are not equal, we should accept this.
This :+1
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I tested mine by having my wife ride with me.
It will withstand anything.
:wife:
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In aircraft structures, you'll rarely see conventional aluminum castings used in any significant load carrying role. The properties are so erratic that it is necessary (by regulation) to impose a high factor of safety on the design, which makes the extra weight not worth it. What about aluminum forgings? They're fine; no extra factors are needed.
It's possible that this swingarm had especially bad properties right at the location of the stress-riser (the drilled hole) while also being subjected to a rougher life than normal. It all added up to the failure even if the motorcycle was never abused. Bad things can happen at the skinny arms of the distribution, but that doesn't put all the other samples at risk.
It's my guess that the swingarm was sized foremost for stiffness and strength mostly took care of itself (was the hope).
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What Deke says , and Pete , why do you say BMW can't build a gearbox , either Trans or bevel ?
Dusty
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FWIW, the swingarm (part # 978350) is the same on the 8V Norge, Griso, and Stelvio. It is also found on the 4V Stelvio. That tells me that this failure is extremely rare since the part has been used for at least 7 years and in multiple vehicle types. One bad casting...stuff happens.
Peter Y.
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The jokes on Guzzi of course; I hear it now... Guzzi put the "R" in CARC in the wrong place. :beat_horse
Hahaha! ;-T
Here's a few more:
CARC kills.
CARC is whack.
Looks like it fell through the CARCs.
The jokes practically write themselves!
I vote for a one-off metallurgical failure. File under: Shit happens.
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FWIW, the swingarm (part # 978350) is the same on the 8V Norge, Griso, and Stelvio. It is also found on the 4V Stelvio. That tells me that this failure is extremely rare since the part has been used for at least 7 years and in multiple vehicle types. One bad casting...stuff happens.
Peter Y.
Actually I think it's more like 10 years, as I believe the CARC debut on the 2006 Breva 1100 is exactly the same structure.
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It would be nice to see more detailed closeup pictures of the unit. I would vote on a bad casting, and I can see the owners point of taking the money vs a replacement bike. Glad to hear the guy WAS able to walk away from the crash and glad to hear he is still enjoying riding two wheels.
Why all the hate on the original owner? From what was posted on ADV the orginal owner DIDN'T even post the pictures....some other guy on ADV came across them on an auction site that is trying to sell the bike.
It would be nice if MG would do a follow up on this unit and have a report on the findings but thats not going to happen. Never seen any follow up reports from BMW and Honda on their failed shaft drive units either.
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No 'Hate' on the owner from me. If the story is true I can perfectly understand his concerns and his choice to move to another brand. What I think is absurd is that after one failure on a single machine all the shrieking hysterics come boiling out of the woodwork claiming that the design, used on many different models, is flawed and unsafe.
It also doesn't explain why the wreck is listed as impact damaged. Who knows the real story? Nobody!
Pete
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What I think is absurd is that after one failure on a single machine all the shrieking hysterics come boiling out of the woodwork claiming that the design, used on many different models, is flawed and unsafe.
Where are these "shrieking hysterics" of which you speak? ???
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If the price was right and depending on all the other damage, I would buy the bike. A new part and whatever other parts needed for repair and ride it.
I didn't bother going over to the Adventure site to read their responses.
Any other failures on Guzzi bikes? The only one?
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No 'Hate' on the owner from me. If the story is true I can perfectly understand his concerns and his choice to move to another brand. What I think is absurd is that after one failure on a single machine all the shrieking hysterics come boiling out of the woodwork claiming that the design, used on many different models, is flawed and unsafe.
Pete
Haven't seen any of those yet, but I suppose that past experience may tell us to watch out for them .... !
Lannis
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No 'Hate' on the owner from me. If the story is true I can perfectly understand his concerns and his choice to move to another brand. What I think is absurd is that after one failure on a single machine all the shrieking hysterics come boiling out of the woodwork claiming that the design, used on many different models, is flawed and unsafe.
It also doesn't explain why the wreck is listed as impact damaged. Who knows the real story? Nobody!
Pete
I do, read my posts, he fell after it broke, understandably, think I would've too, lucky he was going slowly, very lucky.
Why it wasn't removed and analysed is another story, you can prob find that out with a phone call.
Hysterics ? where ? most seem to think a one off casting fault, tend to agree but reserve that judgement to an expert in metallurgy, not me.
Someone will buy the thing, surely
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I do believe the story though and it seems wrong to make out that the owner is a bullshitter.
I don't see anyone calling out the owner or poster. I think we're all in the same boat and just wondering how this happened. The most logical explanation is at some point, there was an "event" that caused a crack, and over time that crack grew until the final result as seen in the pictures. The million dollar question is, what was this "event"? I think we'd all agree that the most likely scenario is an impact of some sort, possibly days, weeks, or months prior and the owner never knew a crack had formed. A much less likely scenario, but I guess still possible, is this idea of a bad CARC from the factory (i.e. a casting defect). Hopefully someone will post up better pictures of the whole CARC, including the underside. If there are no signs of impact along the fracture, then I guess we have a unicorn and the first ever CARC failure from bad casting (at least the first I've ever heard of), but my guess is an impact started this disaster.
In the end, CARC'd Guzzi's are more overbuilt than my car, so I'll keep riding the heck out of mine and not worry a moment about a similar failure.
-NV
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This old swing arm (Paralever) has been rolling down the highway for over 140,000 miles. I suspect it might be a bit more delicate than the CARC design, however, no issues, aside from a driveshaft (u joint) that failed at 121,000 miles.
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n284/bcgilligan/Montana%202009%20all%20pix/HudsontoMontana2009018Small.jpg) (http://s115.photobucket.com/user/bcgilligan/media/Montana%202009%20all%20pix/HudsontoMontana2009018Small.jpg.html)
There's several thousand Beemer single sided swingarms out there, and aside from the pic of the 'flaming' one, I haven't seen too many pics of failed units, at least not any that look like the CARC pic in this thread. I have to agree .... the Stelvio must have hit something in its lifetime that fractured the swing arm.
One would think that something out of the ordinary would have caused this . Possibly started on a previous ride undetected but nobody really knows.
Good to hear from an unbiased Beemer owner . I love them all and always have just have a preference for Guzzi and that's ok . I hope he has better luck with the Triumph !
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Well, I think someone got a bargain. I watched towards the end of the Auction but when it went above $4,000 I lost interest, I dont have that sort of money at the moment and Jude would of had my bollock on a plate if I'd bought it. I think it went for about 4.6k which for a 23K bike is pretty damn good!
Pete
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I don't see anyone calling out the owner or poster. I think we're all in the same boat and just wondering how this happened. The most logical explanation is at some point, there was an "event" that caused a crack, and over time that crack grew until the final result as seen in the pictures. The million dollar question is, what was this "event"? I think we'd all agree that the most likely scenario is an impact of some sort, possibly days, weeks, or months prior and the owner never knew a crack had formed. A much less likely scenario, but I guess still possible, is this idea of a bad CARC from the factory (i.e. a casting defect). Hopefully someone will post up better pictures of the whole CARC, including the underside. If there are no signs of impact along the fracture, then I guess we have a unicorn and the first ever CARC failure from bad casting (at least the first I've ever heard of), but my guess is an impact started this disaster.
In the end, CARC'd Guzzi's are more overbuilt than my car, so I'll keep riding the heck out of mine and not worry a moment about a similar failure.
-NV
Have another look at picture, it's swingingarm not carc that broke,
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd70/BNWombat/BNWombat010/image.jpg1.jpg)
Agree with Pete it was a bargain, I should've jumped on it, I'd use front end and brakes , engine, box and carc could've found homes for sure.
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I have witnessed folks taking a NEW bike off a showroom floor for a test ride ... and absolutely THRASH it thru the gears. Often wonder if these sort of people also take a Trail bike and do the same thing? Have never bought a demo bike yet ...
The only people who will know the truth on this single event is either a very good metallurgist or a rider that rode that bike in a way that created a fracture....
would just take one single event to do that.... was the bike parked somewhere and a gremlin with metal fracturing powers pick on it??
Keep it away from me!
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Who has the schematics for welding braces onto the CARC to avoid this mishap? Maybe someone can come up with a right side bolt on gizmo and drive the rear wheel from both sides?
Better yet, an ejection seat is in order, that way you'll hit the ground much later than the bike and thus be able to video the whole affair from the air.
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I haven't zoomed in on the picture, but it looks to me like the crack was there for a while. Dark colour in front of the tire , and shiny ( fresh ) aluminium colour where it finally let go.
Giving it a bath once in a while , that crack may have been discovered before it failed completely, Ohhhh thats right , some of you guys are allergic to a clean bike :D
-Ron.
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I haven't zoomed in on the picture, but it looks to me like the crack was there for a while. Dark colour in front of the tire , and shiny ( fresh ) aluminium colour where it finally let go.
Giving it a bath once in a while , that crack may have been discovered before it failed completely, Ohhhh thats right , some of you guys are allergic to a clean bike :D
-Ron.
I'd noticed that Ron but didn't think it worth mentioning as I was sure I'd be shouted down and told I was an apologist for Piaggio. I still reckon it stinks of pre-existing damage that led to failure. How and why that damage occured is open to conjecture.
I know of lots of people who ride their CARC Guzzis on dirt regularly, myself included, but the Stelvio I recently had to do the complete engine rebuild on lives several km down a real goat track that only gets graded once every couple of years. If anything was going to kill a swingarm? That would do it! Both that bike and the owners previous one, an earlier 'Small Tank' Stelvio', have never given any problems in terms of chassis *Irregularities*. In contrast BMW's used previously for similar tasks has continuous niggling issues, broken spokes, collapsed bearings, gearbox issues.... I know which one I'd trust.....
Pete
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For perspective, here's a Stelvio (not mine) that hasn't had any reported problems with the swingarm:
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x192/cj750/Guzzi/Stelvio/MG_9558-1280x853_zpsaqcdmvbl.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x192/cj750/Guzzi/Stelvio/MG_9507-1280x853_zpsj9pg6ebx.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x192/cj750/Guzzi/Stelvio/Stelvio-6-1280x853_zpsz2zthqgs.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x192/cj750/Guzzi/Stelvio/stelvio_Guzzi-1-1280x853_zpsvy6bu7kr.jpg)
(photos from the ADV Rider site.)
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Have another look at picture, it's swingingarm not carc that broke,
(http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd70/BNWombat/BNWombat010/image.jpg1.jpg)
Agree with Pete it was a bargain, I should've jumped on it, I'd use front end and brakes , engine, box and carc could've found homes for sure.
It's interesting how the cross-beam of the swingarm tore open along that dirty looking break... with that kind of pre-existing damage I would expect it to fail as bad as it did.
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It's interesting how the cross-beam of the swingarm tore open along that dirty looking break... with that kind of pre-existing damage I would expect it to fail as bad as it did.
I haven't been on the site for awhile because of reasons relating to a similar situation. I was quite surprize to see this post and glad to see I wasnt alone.
I have agree with the rider and the chap that submitted the post as being as close to the truth as one can get.
In my case to be brief happened with the same bike same amount of KM's/mileage same year same type of rider.
Sorry to say Pete it broke in the exact same place and here are some photo's!
Speed at the time was between 100-105km/h as I was peeling back in my lane after over taking another vehicle in a normal pass
sorry Im havind trouble loading a photo attachment - is there a secret button hiding somewhere??
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Look, it's very unfortunate but quite simply the design has been in production and use for well over a decade. There has been no pattern of systematic failure. Ofeople want to scaremonger they are welcome to but it's bullshit plain and simple. Two failures in a decade does not a 'Flawed Product' make. If it did BMW's system would be streets ahead in the failure rate.
Pete
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Chain drive rules.
BMW's are lovely.
The Tuono is slow.
The 75HP small block is about to be released.
The CARC/single sided swingarm is dangerous and breaks.
Let the Hysteria abound!
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Maybe I am wrong, but it looks like the break first started right in front of the rear tire. The edges of the broken center section are dull, grey (oxidized?) while the edges of the broken side section carrying the driveshaft, looks fresh and shiny.
Maybe the center section cracked first and the side failed much later. Looks like it to my eye.
Could a rock get wedged in that area? Maybe a bad casting that slipped through inspection?
I had a sleeping bag wedge in tightly between my tire and the rear fender (a weak bungie cord holding it on the bike came loose and caught a spoke on a 69 BSA years ago - instant lockup!)
Something strange happened.
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/door%20crash_zps6mmp4npu.jpg)
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Look, it's very unfortunate but quite simply the design has been in production and use for well over a decade. There has been no pattern of systematic failure. Ofeople want to scaremonger they are welcome to but it's bullshit plain and simple. Two failures in a decade does not a 'Flawed Product' make. If it did BMW's system would be streets ahead in the failure rate.
Pete
well nothing is perfect and just like the suspension link there is always a few that dont make the grade! Too bad I cant post all the findings I think it would change your mind about the quality!
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Oh good grief!
No, you won't. You know why? Because I've worked with the wretched CARC system since its inception and I've NEVER seen a problem! With the linkages? There were probably at most four that got on bikes as a result of some nong not cutting the end off the extruded bar. The factory issued a recall foe ALL bikes from that batch.
I'm sorry you broke your motorbike but embarking on an ill informed campaign to query build quality is just a wee bit pathetic. Sorry, you won't 'Convince' me because there is nothing to convince me of. If I experience a problem I will alanlyse it and make a decision not based on the shoutings of some hysteric whose first post on a board is a broad brush claim that the product is flawed based on a sample of one.
Pete
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well nothing is perfect and just like the suspension link there is always a few that dont make the grade! Too bad I cant post all the findings I think it would change your mind about the quality!
Oh please post your findings. Pretty please. Why can't you? Please do post them. Please!
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You have to understand Mark. To get a return to safety and good engineering we need to return to 23 inch front wheels and mild steel tube girder forks with cast iron forging so for the linkages. Couple this with crowded ball cup and cone steering head bearings with no oil seals and a diamond, single downtube, cradle frame with a rigid rear end, (No chance of a breakage there with a 20 inch rear wheel with Dunlop Pneumatics' on it! Although perhaps wiring them on to the rims would be better! No Siree!) suspension at the back? That's what a sprung saddle is for!
Heavens to Betsy man! Get a grip! You'll be trying to tell us that the days of carbide lighting, bulb horns and exposed valvegear are numbered next!
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I read through this entire thread and besides the stellar entertainment value provided by Pete and Martin, my only thought was that while the part in question might well be of sufficient strength in its original application on the Breva 1100, Griso, and Norge, it might be just a tad on the marginal side for use on the Stelvio. Many engineering factors to consider in that equation...
Having spent most of my life fiddling with production based components in racing applications, I can think of numerous examples where seemingly over-engineered parts were stressed in ways that they were totally unintended for; the consequence was usually castrophic (read: $$$$$$) failure. Similarly, the harmonics associated with riding a Stelvio fairly regularly on unpaved roads might well cause the occasional marginal swing arm casting to fail at a stress point that might not ever fail had the same casting been mounted on a Griso that rarely, if ever, left the pavement.
Disclaimer: I am not an engineer.
Ciao,
Kip
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Kip, if there was an endemic problems they'd be snapping like dry twigs over here. There are lots of blokes doing high miles on badly corrugated dirt and so far the one alleged failure happened at low miles on a city bike.
Sorry, the numbers aren't there and the stories don't stack up. Who knows what happened to the ones that failed? Someone could of jacked the bike up under the swingarm stressing it in a way it wasn't supposed to be stressed. Who knows? I'm still saying that it's a sound system but like any component it can be damaged by abuse.
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I haven't zoomed in on the picture, but it looks to me like the crack was there for a while. Dark colour in front of the tire , and shiny ( fresh ) aluminium colour where it finally let go.
Giving it a bath once in a while , that crack may have been discovered before it failed completely, Ohhhh thats right , some of you guys are allergic to a clean bike :D
-Ron.
Hey, mine gets washed - every time it rains, here in Las Vegas!
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Pete and Mark , I respect both of you greatly , but if this happened to me I would not be happy . Sorry to be the fly in the ointment , but maybe their is a legitimate cause for concern here .
Dusty
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Someone could of jacked the bike up under the swingarm stressing it in a way it wasn't supposed to be stressed. Who knows? I'm still saying that it's a sound system but like any component it can be damaged by abuse.
Ed Zachary my point, and I am in total agreement with you on that as an outstanding example of a component being used in a way in which it was not intended. I was thinking more along the lines of damaging harmonics from constant high frequency inputs, but we're on the same tack here. Your's is admittedly a better and far more likely scenario.
Speaking of under-engineered... I might just fire up the Lario and take it for a ride tomorrow!
(http://www.politicsforum.org/images/flame_warriors/grenade.jpg)
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Pete and Mark , I respect both of you greatly , but if this happened to me I would not be happy . Sorry to be the fly in the ointment , but maybe their is a legitimate cause for concern here .
No need to apologize. It is a cause for concern. The question is, exactly how much of a concern? The CARC has been around since 2005. How many units have been sold? How many have had a catastrophic failure? I don't mean bearing failures or leaks, but where the swingarm has broken that wasn't due to impact damage or negligence on behalf of the rider?
There's a lot of conjecture in this thread, and yes I'm guilty of it too, but there's been no data presented to compel me to believe this failure occurred randomly. Someone posted that they had data but couldn't post it? Why not? If someone posts something on the net without data to back their claim, I call BS.
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sorry Im havind trouble loading a photo attachment - is there a secret button hiding somewhere??
A thread about how to post photos is at the top of the FAQ section of the board: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=16183.0 (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=16183.0)
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If the swing arm supports the wheel from one side, and it broke under the rider's and its own weight, why is the tire tipped and turned the way it is? Shouldn't the gearbox side be down? Wouldn't such an accident try to pull the unit apart? The unit looks compressed. It sort of looks more like impact damage to me. YMMV
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Hi, this is my first post and unfortunately I'm the bearer of some bad news. My Stelvio's swing-arm failed catastrophically last weekend while on a trip through the Ceres Karoo in the Northen Cape in South Africa. Photo's here: http://1drv.ms/1MvnBO1
The incident took place on Friday the 9th of October 2015. The CARC swing-arm broke in half and damaged quite a few parts of the bike's rear (the rim and tyre is however still perfect). The front suspension saw the same road surface/conditions and nothing happened. I'm still at a loss of why the swing-arm simply broke like this (at that moment I thought the rear locked up for some weird reason, until the bike came to a standstill and I was faced with the horror and utter shock of a broken swing-arm). I actually said WTF aloud and then for a moment thought I was dreaming. Honestly, it was surreal. I managed to keep the bike upright during the break and didn't drop it because I was going slowly (about 40 kph, max 50 kph, I was in third gear) and the road conditions were flat. I've been riding bikes for 20+ years, so that probably also helps.
There is one other very similar case I found on this forum: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=75525.0. Same year bike, similar mileage, was traveling at a similar speed, similar conditions, etc., from what I can learn from the post in any case.
I've been on much worse gravel roads, fully loaded with a pillion, with my old GS 1150 and never had issues like this, also on the weekend there were 5 other bikes that did the same route and their bikes didn't break, we were nowhere close to pushing the bikes to their limits nor abusing them. All my vehicles are in excellent condition, I look after my stuff (notice the duct tape on pillion grab bars and the little carrier behind the rear seat?, so that they don't get scratched when I strap my luggage on). The fact that we could recover the bike with a 2-wheel drive pick-up (without diff-lock) also says that the road conditions are normal for a gravel road.
It is my opinion that the tapped hole in the swing-arm acts as a stress raiser (stress concentration). There is no reinforcing or thickening of the aluminium casting where the tapped hole is, I find this surprising.
I'd therefore like to, or need to, warn other Stelvio/Griso/Norge riders of the potential of the swing-arm breaking like this! Please check underneath your bikes in the area of the tapped hole closest to the rear damper (there are two, used for clamps for the brake line and ABS sensor wire -- see photos below) to see if there are any cracks, you could potentially avoid this from happening to you. I was lucky because I was going slowly, but if this happens at speed and/or with a pillion and luggage on the back, people can get seriously injured or worse... Imagine hitting a pot-hole (which is MUCH worse than the shallow gravel dip I drove through) at 120 km/h on a public road with other cars, etc.
The Stelvio should be able to handle gravel roads and the dips and washouts that come with them without any issue. I'm hoping this is a case of bad aluminium casting.
I was originally going to claim from my insurance, but this is first and foremost a mechanical failure, and one that needs to be addressed and/or looked into. The swing-arm design might be fine for tarred road conditions, but with the extra weight of the Stelvio plus luggage and the more severe demands of gravel roads it might be pushing the design beyond it's limits. Of course I'm assuming a lot here, still, that tapped hole in a highly stressed area bothers me...
I'm returning the bike and swing-arm to the local agents in South Africa so that they can hopefully send the swing-arm to Italy for analysis. I'm hoping for a responsible response from Piaggio and I'm going to be seriously dissapointed if they claim it's abuse, because it's not.
Worst of all is the looks of pity I got from the guys who were on the trip with me, guys on BMWs, KTMs and one guy on a Honda. Not nice.
Safe riding.
Regards,
MotoZA
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Wow! Glad you are okay. I think you are right about the hole being the culprit. I hope you get it repaired, and I hope this doesn't happen to anyone else!
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Yes , REALLY glad you are alright . Keep us apprised .
Dusty
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Thanks for posting this incident and for an objective analysis of the failure. I've been toying with the idea of getting a Stelvio, and I tend to ride solo on much rougher terrain than in your picture - with tools and supplies. But no amount of Quicksteel is going to fix a broken swingarm.
What goes into that tapped hole? It seems from your pictures that anyone concerned about it could have a thick bead welded around the inside of the swingarm - and then have the threads tapped in further. That wouldn't interfere with the driveshaft, right? If it did, you could weld the bead on the outside - it just wouldn't be very attractive.
Keep us posted on the responses from Moto Guzzi.
I felt your shame from the BMW riders' reactions. Anytime something goes wrong with my Husqvarna, I feel similarly from the Orange crew (KTM).
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I don't know what goes into that hole, if someone can take a photo of the underside of the swing arm it would help. EDIT: It's for a plastic clip to route the brake line and ABS sensor wire.
There's no extra material/metal in that area for a hole, as would normally be the case.
The Oz failure also cracked through the hole, according to the post.
I wouldn't weld the aluminium casting since there's a good chance you may change the material properties due to the heat input.
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Maybe that's a drain hole for anything that might collect in there like water, oil, etc.
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Incredible, glad you're fine. More's the shame as the Stelvio is a great bike to ride. Hope Piaggio come back to you with some sensible ideas.
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No, I don't think that's a drain hole. The things that can leak into the swing arm cavity is oil from the final drive and from the gearbox. Even so, why tap the hole with thread? Thanks for the thought.
My wife asked me how I feel about the bike now, and I replied that it feels as though a girlfriend broke up with me (when I still dated, of course). "Betrayed?", she asked. "Yes, betrayed." :cry:
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From the photos, it looks like there may have been a crack for a while near the hole. Then the rest of the break looks fresh. Would you agree with that?
Looks like something to keep a close eye on at tire changes at least.
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From the photos, it looks like there may have been a crack for a while near the hole. Then the rest of the break looks fresh.
The whole bottom part that the hole is in looks darker than all the rest. If that part was really cracked for a while it may well have been visible from the outside.
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The whole bottom part that the hole is in looks darker than all the rest.
That is what I see.
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Well it is placarded "CARC", Careful Across Rough Country - you should have known. :tongue:
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CARC acronym, I didn't know :azn:
Yes, I agree that it looks like an old crack, it's got the signs of a classic fatigue failure. No doubt helped by the tapped hole, which is in essence, a crack. We all know how toilet paper works, same principle...
Why put a hole in a part of the bike that sees variable tension combined with variable torsion? One could argue that one should check the swing arm for fatigue every now and again, but where do you draw the line? The frame and many other parts of the bike see the same number of fluctuating loads, maybe not the same in magnitude, but fatigue is a design concern and can be designed for, and should. It's fairly simple stuff you do in your 3rd year of studying mechanical engineering.
The whole point of getting shaft drive is the fact that it's maintenance free, I don't want to crawl underneath my bike to look for cracks. I don't do it with my cars. It's ludicrous to expect owners to do that.
Having said that, I do however suggest that Stelvio riders have a look at their swing-arms regularly, at the front tapped hole.
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The hole?
Theres TWO of them. A plastic tab is pushed (or screwed) into the hole and it holds the brake line and ABS sensor wire.
Here's few shots of 2014 Stelvio NTX.
(http://s18.postimg.org/sbbsnpna1/Full_Size_Render.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
(http://s22.postimg.org/9611t7qoh/IMG_9522.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
(http://s1.postimg.org/540yb90j3/IMG_9523.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
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One could argue that one should check the swing arm for fatigue every now and again...
It's hard to check for fatigue that's about to cause a crack. You're pretty much limited to checking for an actual crack. :wink:
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In my mind, the first failure was a fluke or abuse. Now I see exactly the same failure on a different continent. The only similarity I see is riding the bike off road and loaded. You'd expect the swingarm to handle this since it's the same unit used in all the CARC bikes but now I wonder if Guzzi has exceeded the original design strength required. After all, the CARC was first used in street bikes (Norge and Griso) and none of them failed. Well, now I have something to add to my checklist when preparing for a long ride. It's going to be hard to act smug around my BMW riding friends when they talk about rear drive failures. :sad:
Peter Y.
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It's hard to check for fatigue that's about to cause a crack. You're pretty much limited to checking for an actual crack. :wink:
For fatigue that's about to_cause_a crack, I agree. But these kits will find cracks that you can't see in most cases:
http://www.grainger.com/product/SPOTCHECK-Penetrant-3WU63?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/3NE71_AS01?$smthumb$
I've used them and they work.
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I suppose you'd have to take all the paint off the aluminum to use that.
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Wow, I'm glad the bike was the only thing messed up. That's # two swing arm failure we have heard about, I'd say it's time for all carc owners to have a close look at there swing arms. Sure hope this doesn't turn into another flat tappet fiasco. Please let us know what Piaggio has to say about this.
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Wow, I'm glad the bike was the only thing messed up. That's # two swing arm failure we have heard about, I'd say it's time for all carc owners to have a close look at there swing arms. Sure hope this doesn't turn into another flat tappet fiasco. Please let us know what Piaggio has to say about this.
No one ever died (to my knowledge) from the "flat tappet fiasco", but this seems really dangerous, much more so than the GM ignition switch problem. And the statistics here also seem worrisome, it's not two out of 2 million, but two out of a few hundred (I don't really know what the production numbers are for CARC Guzzis, but the total is probably a lot less than 2 million).
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Deja vu, all over again, looks identical to me
Oddest thing is they only break in Southern hemisphere, maybe cos we have dirt roads ?
Try Spanish speaking forums, next one will be in South America somewhere,
This bloke looks good tester, lovely pics
http://www.stelvio2stelvio.it/
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It looks like the holes for the wiring leads were an afterthought. Probably a good analysis went into the design of the casting, without the holes, and then someone had the bright idea of drilling them later on in the design process. What a shame.
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Deja vu, all over again, looks identical to me
Oddest thing is they only break in Southern hemisphere, maybe cos we have dirt roads ?
Try Spanish speaking forums, next one will be in South America somewhere,
This bloke looks good tester, lovely pics
http://www.stelvio2stelvio.it/
Wow! What photos! Guzzi should send this guy a spare swing arm to take with him, just in case.
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No one ever died (to my knowledge) from the "flat tappet fiasco", but this seems really dangerous, much more so than the GM ignition switch problem. And the statistics here also seem worrisome, it's not two out of 2 million, but two out of a few hundred (I don't really know what the production numbers are for CARC Guzzis, but the total is probably a lot less than 2 million).
This failure falls under the same category as the suspension link failure in 2012 on the Griso/Stelvio/Norge. Something to keep an eye on. If more fail I'd bet a recall will be implemented. It gives a chance to grease the splines.
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It looks like the holes for the wiring leads were an afterthought. Probably a good analysis went into the design of the casting, without the holes, and then someone had the bright idea of drilling them later on in the design process. What a shame.
If putting a couple small threaded holes in the casting results in failure, it was marginal to begin with. I'm glad my old Tonti has a symmetrical steel swing arm and two shock absorbers.
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I'm not a metallurgist but on photo #8 portions of that housing look porous. It may just be the angle of the photo but it looks more like cheap pot metal than aluminum along the edge where it failed.
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You may be right, rtbickel, which would mean that the failure wasn't because of the added holes. If something like a porous casting caused the failure, it would be likely that the crack would include all the stress risers, so it would be no surprise that it went through the hole. Obviously it will take a lot of real analysis to solve this. If this were my problem, I might start with breaking a dozen or so castings and see what I learn.
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If this were my problem, I might start with breaking a dozen or so castings and see what I learn.
Castings pose a unique difficulty for quality control. It's a process dependent upon a number of variables. Contamination of melt, improper heating/cooling, etc. That's why castings are usually designed with a large factor of safety. X-rays may be more useful than breaking but stressing to yield and breaking is certainly useful.
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I'm not a metallurgist but on photo #8 portions of that housing look porous. It may just be the angle of the photo but it looks more like cheap pot metal than aluminum along the edge where it failed.
I agree but it just might look like that due to the way it failed and not necessarily be the source of failure. It looks like the failure in the area around the tapped hole is a shear failure, like cutting. The area at about 2-o'clock and to the right, where it looks like pot metal, looks like a tensile failure like it was torn as the wheel folded under the bike. It could vey well be a bad casting, or a few bad castings. The trouble with castings is that they can look perfectly fine and be compromised internally.
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If putting a couple small threaded holes in the casting results in failure, it was marginal to begin with. I'm glad my old Tonti has a symmetrical steel swing arm and two shock absorbers.
I understand that aluminium will crack when holes have flash left around the edges. The edges of holes need to be smoorthly chamfered.
The earliest incident related to this is possibly the disastrous failure of pressure skins on the 50s De Havilland Comet Jetliners, which mysteriously fell out of the sky after some use. After 6 months testing in an over-sized bath tub ;-) they found a crack appeared at a hole used for mounting a window frame, and traced the cause to the hole having not been cleaned around after drilling.
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Not quite.
The actual cause was the insufficient radii on the window corners (and other skin apertures).
That's why later Aircraft have much larger radii on the windows (and thicker sections around them), and on any other apertures.
A simple hole itself will not necessarily form a stress raiser, it's far more likely in this case to be the threads themselves that are the culprit.
Cut (Tapped) threads have fairly sharp troughs/valleys at their base, that's why the threads on critical (male) fasteners are Rolled, not cut, Spokes for instance, or high-performance Cylinder Head studs (and most Aircraft fasteners).
If there's nothing bolted to that hole, then it would be prudent to drill the threads out and chamfer and polish it, then crack-check it.
It would also help to 'cold-work' the hole, either by manual peening (small flap-wheel impregnated with small metal beads), or by drawing a smooth steel mandrel through the hole that's a thou' or so larger than the bore.
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The Guzzi dealer near me does most of the CARC repairs in Germany. (seals, etc)
I sent him the links to both discussions, so he can see the pics. I asked in the email, if he was aware of these failures.
I'll let you know his reply.
Tom
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So we have 3 known faliures now.
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Yup! Three documented failures in ten years of production. And seemingly all fairly close together in the manufacturing line.
Should it happen? No! Of course not. But obviously the gleeful doomsayers and haters of change will revel in yet another excuse to condemn anything made after 1957!
Pathetic.
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Yup! Three documented failures in ten years of production. And seemingly all fairly close together in the manufacturing line.
Should it happen? No! Of course not. But obviously the gleeful doomsayers and haters of change will revel in yet another excuse to condemn anything made after 1957!
Pathetic.
I don't see any "gleeful doomsayers and haters" here. It's been a rational discussion until now.
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Yes, thanks, please keep it rational.
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My now retired brother was in the die casting game for 40 years so may have an idea as to the "problem". I will show him these pictures when he comes deer hunting in a couple of weeks. Can't email pics to him as he has no interneck as he moved away from it all at retirement, couldn't get away from the spouse though. To my untrained eye the crystalline structure of the aluminum looks a bit strange as to maybe the die was not up to temperature when they made the shot or contaminated metal mixture in the pot for a batch of swingarms. Have to wait and see what he thinks.
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Yup! Three documented failures in ten years of production. And seemingly all fairly close together in the manufacturing line.
Should it happen? No! Of course not. But obviously the gleeful doomsayers and haters of change will revel in yet another excuse to condemn anything made after 1957!
Pathetic.
Wonder how many were produced? Seems to be a very small percentage of reported failures so far. But maybe we can pin the production numbers down?
Don't have a dog in this fight but curious.
Dean
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Wonder how many were produced? Seems to be a very small percentage of reported failures so far. But maybe we can pin the production numbers down?
Don't have a dog in this fight but curious.
Dean
There's an idea :thumb: One does wonder if the bikes in question were actually being used as ADV tools , and not as purely street bikes . While the failure rate may be low , that type of catastrophic failure will send out alarms all across the motorcycle world . This would be a good time for Piaggio to step forward and deal with this before anymore similar incidents occur .
Dusty
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Mine was certainly used as an adventure bike, for me that's the whole point of having a bike like that. We literally have thousands of kilometres of gravel roads in South Africa just waiting to be explored. I was attracted to the Stelvio because of its gorgeous looks and the air cooled motor, and the drive shaft.
Where my bike broke down was between three small towns. If I was alone I would've had to walk 30 to 40 kms to the nearest farm house, not really an issue, but also not part of the original plan. Here's the location, for those interested:
https://goo.gl/maps/MTh2HkK2r9N2
I appreciate all the replies and will keep everyone posted, the bike will go to the local agents this week. I'm hoping Piaggio comes to the party.
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In my mind, the first failure was a fluke or abuse. Now I see exactly the same failure on a different continent. The only similarity I see is riding the bike off road and loaded. You'd expect the swingarm to handle this since it's the same unit used in all the CARC bikes but now I wonder if Guzzi has exceeded the original design strength required. After all, the CARC was first used in street bikes (Norge and Griso) and none of them failed. Well, now I have something to add to my checklist when preparing for a long ride. It's going to be hard to act smug around my BMW riding friends when they talk about rear drive failures. :sad:
Peter Y.
Short ride or long ride, does it really matter? The failure isn't going to care. 60 mph on a short trip is the same as 60 mph going cross country.
As quick check before each ride should go a long way to providing assurance. Only takes a few seconds. A small mirror might make it easier. Something to check each and every time though, like tire pressures.
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I think all were 2012 bikes? would be good to have VIN or engine numbers to see if they belong to the same batch/month in production
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I would bet this is a bad casting run. I have abused mine in all sorts of conditions. Rock crawling, bad and easy gravel, deep mud, ruts, etc, etc. No issues in 63,000 miles. Andrea Livio had no CARC failure on his round the world trip and that bike was heavily loaded and he rode some very gnarly roads/trails/paths/rivers. I doubt it's a design problem.
While it sucks if it happened to you, 3 failures in what is probably literally millions of miles on the CARC doesn't seem like time to pull the panic lever. Hopefully Piaggio can figure out if there was a bad run of the parts and address it like the link issue.
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I think all were 2012 bikes? would be good to have VIN or engine numbers to see if they belong to the same batch/month in production
:1:
Dean
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Pete's right. Thousands of carcs have been produced, and perhaps three have failed.
If you want to fight windmills, that's your choice.
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Pete's right. Thousands of carcs have been produced, and perhaps three have failed.
If you want fight windmills, that's your choice.
The issue isn't about the thousands of carcs in service , but rather about the three Stelvios that have had a catastrophic failure. If you owned a 2012 model , which seems to be the problematic models , would you not be concerned and want something done ?
Dusty
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The issue isn't about the thousands of carcs in service , but rather about the three Stelvios that have had a catastrophic failure. If you owned a 2012 model , which seems to be the problematic models , would you not be concerned and want something done ?
Dusty
:1:
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It looks like the holes for the wiring leads were an afterthought . . . and then someone had the bright idea of drilling them later on in the design process.
Not so.
There are little lugs cast into the Arm next to the holes, to prevent rotation of the Cable/Hose Clips themselves, so the mounting holes were planned from the off. :thumb:
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Pete's right. Thousands of carcs have been produced, and perhaps three have failed.
If you want fight windmills, that's your choice.
The issue isn't about the thousands of carcs in service , but rather about the three Stelvios that have had a catastrophic failure. If you owned a 2012 model , which seems to be the problematic models , would you not be concerned and want something done ?
Dusty
Actually, yes, Dear Leader Mod, I do see the statistical evidence of the successful many as outweighing the failure of a few, especially as the only persuasive failure to me seems to be the OP's.
And, as for "concerned and want something done," sure, but perhaps instead of gathering a howling mob with torches, pitchforks, and lynching in mind -- which this forum can become -- it might be more helpful simply to wait and see what if anything Piaggio does.
But this is not, it seems to me, a Hobson's choice or one between Scylla and Charybdis.
As a guy who has had a failed oil pump seize the engine and CARC fail on my Norge, and with my Griso requiring out-of-my-pocket "rollerization," I am hardly a Piaggio party-line guy, as smitten as I am by Guzzis generally. But I am willing to see what comes from sober study rather than wail about any of it now.
That said, I am not blowing this off ... yet. I don't think it wrong to muse about it all, and I'll get under my Norge tomorrow with a strong light to see if there might be a crack. If I had a Stelvio and wandered off the pavement -- or still lived in Atlanta, the Pothole Capital of the South -- I'd check more frequently.
Finally, seems to me that the OP is mature and has his head screwed on straight: "I appreciate all the replies and will keep everyone posted, the bike will go to the local agents this week. I'm hoping Piaggio comes to the party."
Should be interesting.
Bill
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Mr Bill says "dear leader mod" , of which only one word accurately describes me :rolleyes:
Not for one second am I promoting the idea of mobs with pitchforks . However , the ostrich method of dealing with a situation never seems to work out , especially for the ostrich . Now , it may turn out that these two failures are isolated , but if I was riding either Stelvio that had this catastrophic failure , well , someone would certainly get an earful .
Dusty
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Since it seems this is very easy to check for, maybe the best way forward is for those who know about it now to check at earliest opportunity, report is evidence if cracking is found and maintain some diligence in checking for it often? If a crack is found, recommend to stop riding the bike until repair/replacement?
So far it doesn't appear to just fall apart but maybe cracks and after a time fails?
Now that we all know about it, we should be properly informed to avoid on the road failures?
All that being said, how much of a crack should be considered enough to warrant parking the bike? I ask because someone might see a small crack and not think enough of it to take more than casual heed. Is any crack sufficient to park it?
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Important is that Piaggio in italy knows each that goes wrong, we have seen three here, there might be more, not everyone with a guzzi writes or reads this forum.
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Important is that Piaggio in italy knows each that goes wrong, we have seen three here, there might be more, not everyone with a guzzi writes or reads this forum.
Excellent point .
Dusty
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The three failures were in:
Australia
South Africa MotoZA
Canada CanuckGoosie
If I'm correct.
So statisticaly if you drive on the wrong side of the road, there is more chance. And live in a country that the English had their say.
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I think all were 2012 bikes? would be good to have VIN or engine numbers to see if they belong to the same batch/month in production
Didn't that year have the suspension link recall? Dots connecting maybe?
https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2013/08/08/moto-guzzi-stelvio-ntx-1200-norge-1200-griso-1200-recall (https://ultimatemotorcycling.com/2013/08/08/moto-guzzi-stelvio-ntx-1200-norge-1200-griso-1200-recall)
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...
All that being said, how much of a crack should be considered enough to warrant parking the bike? I ask because someone might see a small crack and not think enough of it to take more than casual heed. Is any crack sufficient to park it?
I'm no metallurgist engineer... but my advice would be a big fat "YES" :angel:
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I deal with LOTS of failed metal in my job. Although it's the marine business, metal failure is metal failure. The fracture surface on either side of the hole is roughly perpendicular to the surface. At the same time, the finish of the break near the hole is slightly darker than the fracture surface across the rest of the failure. If you look closely, i'm sure you'll see that the normally "woody" texture of the fracture will appear somewhat burnished. The tips of the asperities will be rounded over slightly. This is from the crack opening and closing over an extended period of time. the darker color is aluminum oxide ground in the surface.
The fracture progressing from this area will tilt back and forth to form sharp, 45 degree edges. This characteristic is termed a "shear lip" and is typical of final, or fast failure. Quite literally, the shear lips were formed as the swing arm tore apart.
Thin wall failure in castings and extrusions can be more difficult to diagnose than failure in a thicker section. Fatigue in thin wall sections may not show the "beach marks" that are so typical of progressive failure. The following picture is of an unstayed mast where some genius decided to drill a hole for wiring right below the mast partners:
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh62/boatdetective/mast%20fatigue_zpsxmqg7dm1.jpg) (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/boatdetective/media/mast%20fatigue_zpsxmqg7dm1.jpg.html)
You should be able to see the same characteristics I mentioned showing the transition from progressive failure to final failure.
As for a "bad run", I don't know about that. It's very easy for people to point the finger by claiming latent defect- but defects typically are a physical thing that can be seen. (the exception might be heat treatment, where sectioning the part and looking under high magnification is necessary to look at the grain structure)
Here is a failed aluminum casting with inclusions in the casting. The inclusions (usually dirt) will look like flat planes in the otherwise homogenious casting. The flat planes are actually voids that can act like stress risers. Virtually all castings have inclusions. The problem arises if the inclusions coincide witha highly stressed area of the part.
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh62/boatdetective/tower1_zpsvvmtnfek.jpg) (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/boatdetective/media/tower1_zpsvvmtnfek.jpg.html)
In this case, there was an inclusion just under the surface. The prior photo shows three more inclusions in a row- so what we have here is a "zipper" of weak spots that caused the part to fatigue. You can see the beach marks in the part pretty clearly.
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh62/boatdetective/tower2_zpshc1attnp.jpg) (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/boatdetective/media/tower2_zpshc1attnp.jpg.html)
The following failure is a crankshaft in a small Volvo diesel. The crank is massive for the low horsepower. Nevertheless, there was a fatigue failure that occurred over 17 years before the poor thing gave up the ghost.
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh62/boatdetective/crank1_zpss9vu5ii5.jpg) (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/boatdetective/media/crank1_zpss9vu5ii5.jpg.html)
If you look here, you can see a series of little bubbles- entrapped gas- in the casting that coincided with the very fillet of the journal. This, certainly, is a "defect".
(http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh62/boatdetective/crank2_zpsuw0b8ynw.jpg) (http://s253.photobucket.com/user/boatdetective/media/crank2_zpsuw0b8ynw.jpg.html)
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Oldbike, what exactly would you like to see done?
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Oldbike, what exactly would you like to see done?
Just some workable resolution . The whole mob with torches thing was a figment of someone's imagination :grin:
Like with any potential safety problem , there is usually a way of mitigating the danger .
Dusty
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I don't see what can be done, as Jonathan/ Boat Detective has so excellently illustrated sometimes things happen with castings in certain applications.
Ever seen a motorcycle swingarm made of tubing break like that ?
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The thing with failures is that its always after the fact. Now that owners will be looking, (only the foolish or uninformed will not) pre failures might start showing up.
It will be interesting to see if this is isolated to one production year but somehow wouldn't that point to MG knowing about it and just correcting the problem later? Is there a difference between say a 2012 and a 2014 swingarm?
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Aaron- just to make itt clear- I do NOT think this is a defect issue in this case. I agree that the hole is the stress risr that initiated the fracture. I cannot see enough to tell if there was something with this hole to make it more likely to start the crack. I would thing that a raised boss in the casting would've been the wise move to provide reinforcement, though. Given the non critical placement of the hole, I think that a blob of weld material in the area, filed flush, redrilled and tapped, would beef tthe area up considerably. The heat from the weld will not affect the casting. In fact, the weld can bee relatively "cold"- a quickie pass with a mig welder would be fine. The point would be merely to add material in way of the hole. I guess I'd also chamfer the hole and make sure the tapped hole is not too "snug".
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I don't see what can be done, as Jonathan/ Boat Detective has so excellently illustrated sometimes things happen with castings in certain applications.
Ever seen a motorcycle swingarm made of tubing break like that ?
Nope , but I did break the steering head on a Hodaka landing from a jump , went WHUMP on the ground . No permanent damage , although my normal baritone was temporarily replaced by a kind of squeak :laugh:
Dusty
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What I would like to see is the VIN#'s for the three machines we KNOW have failed.
When the considerably less photogenic but equally dangerous linkage failure occurred the factory had good records of which bikes had parts that came from the affected batch. I'm hoping that they would have similar records for major castings such as swingarms.
The CARC system was first used on the Breva 11 back in 2005. That's ten years ago. The Stelvio was launched and has been in production since 2008 and many have been flogged mercilessly and probably grossly overloaded since then. Suddenly, quite close together, there has been a batch of failures. Yes! It's deeply worrying and I'd HOPE the factory gets the on to isolating which machines may be affected with some serious urgency! It is a MAJOR safety issue. BUT to start talking about 'Serious design flaws' on a system that has stood the test of time in hundreds, if not tens of thousands of vehicles, is just plain stupid.
Pete
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Could this type of failure happen if the hole wasn't there? In other words, they all cracked there but does that mean it had to be the fault of the hole or could those swingarms have had some weakness in that area and that is where the stress was the most so it would have cracked there anyway?
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I think Jonathon and Pete are both onto something . Something in fact can be done to protect the owners of any affected Stelvios W/O putting Guido in stocks :laugh: Ultimately fixing the problem should be the ultimate goal .
Dusty
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Considering how I have loaded and abused my Stelvio, I do not think it is a strength issue. I seem to remember that one of the other failed swingarms was involved in an impact of some kind? This seems to be a freak event, which makes me suspect the casting...it really should be analysed. Castings can definitely be a hit and miss thing.
The first batch of BMW 650dirt bikes had front forks that would occasionally snap off (causing more than one serious injury), and BMW quickly and quietly redesigned the forks and denied anything ever happened. There are a bunch of pics of detatched BMW final drives floating around the net...and yes, I have seen steel tube swingarms fail too. There is always the chance that parts can fail. Rims can split. Some of the sportbike frames can lose their steering head from too many wheelies. I guess the lesson here is to check things over on occasion. One more good reason to wash your bike! LOL
I know I won't be tempting fate by launching my Stelvio off of any big jumps. The CARC is a big thin tubular casting, and I am not about to beat on it like a motocross bike, but I am definitely not afraid to ride it in the rough stuff.
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Could this type of failure happen if the hole wasn't there? In other words, they all cracked there but does that mean it had to be the fault of the hole or could those swingarms have had some weakness in that area and that is where the stress was the most so it would have cracked there anyway?
No, it most probably won't fail if there's no hole there.
The stress at the edge of a hole has a higher value than the remote stress in the same component. Fatigue cracks usually (mostly) initiate at the sites of stress concentrations. Once a crack has formed, the stress concentration plays no part anymore, it was merely the starting point of the crack. This assumes geometry effects only, and disregards material effects (inclusions, voids, surface roughness, surface hardness, etc). For a simple circular (not elliptical) hole the stress can be three times higher at the edge of the hole if the stress is purely tension, i.e., Kt=3, where Kt is the stress concentration factor. For torsion, Kt = 4. Source: Yukitaka Murakami, Metal Fatigue, Elsevier. The swing-arm sees both tension (and perhaps compression in some cases) and torsion (due to the offset load from the wheel).
A stress concentration is fine in most cases for something that is loaded statically, since the material will strain strengthen (if it's a ductile material, but not if it's a brittle material). If a material is loaded variably, i.e., not statically, you MUST consider the effects of stress-concentrations, as this may very well lead a to crack forming. Once the crack has formed, it will grow over time due to the variable/repeated/fluctuating/alternating load. The Stelvio will experience a higher cycle of fluctuating loads compared to a Breva, Griso and Norge since it is likely that it will be used on gravel roads with corrugations (in South Africa we refer to these roads as "sinkplaat", which refers to the wave shape of old zink roof sheets) and the fact they're obviously not as smooth as tarred roads.
The following is from Shigley's Mechanical Engineering Design (Auth: Budynas-Nisbett), McGraw-Hill:
A fatigue failure has an appearance similar to a brittle fracture, as the fracture surfaces are flat and perpendicular to the stress axis with the absence of necking. The fracture features of a fatigue failure, however, are quite different from a static brittle fracture arising from three stages of development. Stage I is the initiation of one or more microcracks due to cyclic plastic deformation followed by crystallographic propagation extending from two to five grains about the origin. Stage I cracks are not normally discernible to the naked eye. Stage II progresses from microcracks to macrocracks forming parallel plateau-like fracture surfaces separated by longitudinal ridges. The plateaus are generally smooth and normal to the direction of maximum tensile stress. These surfaces can be wavy dark and light bands referred to as beach marks or clamshell marks. During cyclic loading, these cracked surfaces open and close, rubbing together, and the beach mark appearance depends on the changes in the level or frequency of loading and the corrosive nature of the environment. Stage III occurs during the final stress cycle when the remaining material cannot support the loads, resulting in a sudden, fast fracture. A stage III fracture can be brittle, ductile, or a combination of both. Quite often the beach marks, if they exist, and possible patterns in the stage III fracture called chevron lines, point toward the origins of the initial cracks.
My point is this: Even if the bike's swing-arm experienced a hard knock/load at some point during it's life due to abuse (not me) or accidentally going through a pot-hole, or whatever, it may not have failed, but the hole might've caused a crack to form. Once the crack formed, you're in trouble, since it will most likely keep growing. And, aluminium (aluminum if you're in the US) does not have an endurance limit. Source: Shigley (Budynas-Nisbett). So eventually it will fail. Putting a hole in a stressed area (it's a critically stressed area, actually), without having designed for it, is looking for trouble.
Of course I'm hoping that I am wrong and that it's simply a bad casting and not as a result of poor design. I mean, they've been building bikes for over 90 years, I've never designed a bike :sad: . But I have designed a fair amount of marine/offshore structures (locally and internationally) and a few winches, and we design for fatigue, even if we don't know the loading. We don't put holes in critically stressed areas, and if we have have to, we specifically design for it.
But I'm sure the engineers at Moto Guzzi did take the effect of the hole into account.
Regards,
MotoZA
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Maybe they did, maybe not.
Could be they allowed for the hole in their analysis, but not for the fact it has a thread cut in it.
Simple error.
The fact that companies in much more safety-critical fields (such as Aircraft manufacture) can and do still get it wrong occasionally, keeps many of us employed, me included.
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Maybe they did, maybe not.
Could be they allowed for the hole in their analysis, but not for the fact it has a thread cut in it.
Simple error.
The fact that companies in much more safety-critical fields (such as Aircraft manufacture) can and do still get it wrong occasionally, keeps many of us employed, me included.
I'm not sure that aircraft are much more safety-critical.. :smiley: a motorcycle will kill ya faster than an airplane.
Just kidding, of course.. but a structural failure on either is serious business.
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The fact that companies in much more safety-critical fields (such as Aircraft manufacture) can and do still get it wrong occasionally, keeps many of us employed, me included.
100%, and I accept that people make mistakes, but as in the aircraft industry, and other industries, IF a mistake (or simple error/oversight was made), it should be corrected. That's why we still climb into airplanes, because we know they do something about their mistakes/errors.
Anyway, I'm hopeful that Piaggio comes to the party.
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100%, and I accept that people make mistakes, but as in the aircraft industry, and other industries, IF a mistake (or simple error/oversight was made), it should be corrected. That's why we still climb into airplanes, because we know they do something about their mistakes/errors.
Anyway, I'm hopeful that Piaggio comes to the party.
There should be no question. MG needs to be completely transparent on this issue lest we go down the road of bad weather and short trips.
The ultimate goal is the safety of the owners, and if the problem is due to manufacturing, design or assembly defects, repair or replacement at no cost to the owner without any regard for Guido.
A few failures in even a couple tens of thousands of bikes and some millions of miles without the problem isn't diddly compared to other vehicles selling in the many millions and going hundreds of millions of miles without actual safety component failures. 3 in the first instance isn't something to stand up and say is some good milestone, it isn't.
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In Aircraft, if a failure occurs that could risk life, an AD is issued which is a mandatory requirement to address the problem and identify the suspect aircraft ASAP, I guess the DoT and their European counterparts don't have quite so rigorous program
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So far it hasn't happened in the USA (?) because I doubt the NTSA would overlook it in the current climate. Do we know if any of the failures have been reported to government agencies? Perhaps the reports have gone only to dealers. If the dealer takes care of it in some handshake agreement with the factory, it wouldn't go past that would it?
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My local Guzzi dealer said he was unaware of the broken CARCs, and would ask his Guzzi rep about it. He was thankful the issue was brought to his attention.
tom
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Wow! Glad you are okay!
If I were in the market for an adventure bike, this would really make me stop and think before springing for a Stelvio...
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Wow! Glad you are okay!
If I were in the market for an adventure bike, this would really make me stop and think before springing for a Stelvio...
well you wouldn't buy anything if you ever had a view of what warranty claims are at any manufacturer. I had by coincidence a view on the piaggio warranty webserver. I have downloaded a few.., but won't post them, most was not guzzi
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Wow! Glad you are okay!
If I were in the market for an adventure bike, this would really make me stop and think before springing for a Stelvio...
Just because the front and rear wheels fall snap off at speed? I think you're being unreasonably picky. :boxing:
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Just because the front and rear wheels fall snap off at speed? I think you're being unreasonably picky. :boxing:
Serious, yes but so long as you check for it before heading out what is the chances of it starting to crack and then coming apart all on the same run?
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Serious, yes but so long as you check for it before heading out what is the chances of it starting to crack and then coming apart all on the same run?
Chances are good that once that type of stress crack begins it will expand rapidly . Not sure doing a visual inspection will catch a crack in its earliest stages .
Dusty
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Chances are good that once that type of stress crack begins it will expand rapidly . Not sure doing a visual inspection will catch a crack in its earliest stages .
Dusty
Is that because it is cast and not forged part? Is it more likely a forged part bends whereas cast breaks or are their too many other variables in the mix?
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Is that because it is cast and not forged part? Is it more likely a forged part bends whereas cast breaks or are their too many other variables in the mix?
Yeah , castings tend to be a bit like glass . Certainly some modern techniques have improved the process , but remember , cast parts are somewhat like a brick . One of our smart guys can probably explain that much better . Forgings or extrusions will be more able to bend , something to do with crystalline structures and molecular alignment . Dang , now my head hurts , TJ or one of you geniuses , help me out here :laugh:
Dusty
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OK fellas , no politics , as Rocker would say , plenty of other places on the internet for that , and we are all friends here .
Thanks
Dusty
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TJ or one of you geniuses , help me out here :laugh:
TJ or one of you geniuses. At least you kept me separate from that group. (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/triplejim/Misc/Animated%20GIFs/icon_lol_zpsf0a60f0d.gif)
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Yeah , castings tend to be a bit like glass . Certainly some modern techniques have improved the process , but remember , cast parts are somewhat like a brick . One of our smart guys can probably explain that much better . Forgings or extrusions will be more able to bend , something to do with crystalline structures and molecular alignment . Dang , now my head hurts , TJ or one of you geniuses , help me out here :laugh:
Dusty
I was curious because I had some time back drilled an tapped an aluminum piece being held onto some alum angle. Somehow it got bent and the drilled and tapped piece cracked and came off (well, part of it anyway) while the angle piece bent. The larger piece looked sandcast. Materials were not too thick, maybe 1/8" for the angle and 1/4 for the cast. Hole was a 1/4-20 through bolted.
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While aluminum as a rule is considered an extremely ductile material, castings certainly will behave more "brittle" than an equivalent wrought or extruded part. Yes, grain structure has a lot to do with it.
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TJ or one of you geniuses. At least you kept me separate from that group. (http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c327/triplejim/Misc/Animated%20GIFs/icon_lol_zpsf0a60f0d.gif)
Kinda always thought YOU are one of the geniuses here :thumb:
While aluminum as a rule is considered an extremely ductile material, castings certainly will behave more "brittle" than an equivalent wrought or extruded part. Yes, grain structure has a lot to do with it.
Thanks Jonathon , some times the terminology escapes me .
Dusty
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Ok, but Guzzi isn't the only one.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/GuzziRider/BMWbusted_zpskckcnzmv.jpg) (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/GuzziRider/media/BMWbusted_zpskckcnzmv.jpg.html)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/GuzziRider/BMWbusted2_zpsm6olzl1o.jpg) (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/GuzziRider/media/BMWbusted2_zpsm6olzl1o.jpg.html)
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The whole subject of a single sided, monoshocked arm is interesting to me. The first time I heard of one, I thought that it seemed odd to replace a symmetrical assembly that has the support springs near the axle, so that the arm guides the wheel but doesn't have to do much supporting, with a single sided one with a spring near the pivot. That makes the single arm take a lot of torsion and bending load that the old fashioned type doesn't have. Statistics aside (only 3 out of a zillion, etc.), seeing these photos doesn't help me like the concept.
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I thnk it's heavier, too-but it looks great and would certainly make wheel removal easier.
Still..I wonder how VFRs do.
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I thnk it's heavier, too-but it looks great and would certainly make wheel removal easier.
Still..I wonder how VFRs do.
Not many Viffers traveling on dirt roads :laugh: Actually , single sided swingarrms with shocks mounted near the front are fairly common on sport bikes and ...
Beemers . Ouch ! Yes , Guzzi ain't the only one with a problem here :copcar:
Ok, but Guzzi isn't the only one.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/GuzziRider/BMWbusted_zpskckcnzmv.jpg) (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/GuzziRider/media/BMWbusted_zpskckcnzmv.jpg.html)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y113/GuzziRider/BMWbusted2_zpsm6olzl1o.jpg) (http://s4.photobucket.com/user/GuzziRider/media/BMWbusted2_zpsm6olzl1o.jpg.html)
Dusty
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The whole subject of a single sided, monoshocked arm is interesting to me. The first time I heard of one, I thought that it seemed odd to replace a symmetrical assembly that has the support springs near the axle, so that the arm guides the wheel but doesn't have to do much supporting, with a single sided one with a spring near the pivot. That makes the single arm take a lot of torsion and bending load that the old fashioned type doesn't have. Statistics aside (only 3 out of a zillion, etc.), seeing these photos doesn't help me like the concept.
Maybe one company did it to be different and look cool, others followed suit.
It could be a weight saving thing but really, on the bigger bikes is it saving all that much vs the older design? Once you get near 600 and up, does the other 10-15 pounds really make a difference? The thing is heavy at that point. Why you'd take a nearly 600 pound bike off road is a whole new question.
Seems like the trade was from lesser stressed and balanced loads to high stressed, twisting loads and more super critical parts with less room for margin.
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Not many Viffers traveling on dirt roads :laugh: Actually , single sided swingarrms with shocks mounted near the front are fairly common on sport bikes and ...
Beemers . Ouch ! Yes , Guzzi ain't the only one with a problem here :copcar:
Dusty
I don't think the VFRs are using cast swingarms, they all look extruded to me. Appears the same for most sport bikes, extrusions for the swingarms.
When you get down to it, why cast them anyway?
See many cast frames?
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I don't think the VFRs are using cast swingarms, they all look extruded to me.
Probably correct :thumb:
Dusty
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Castings are far better now days than what they once were. Vacuum and pressure casting processes have significantly increased strengths of components. But there is always the possibility of an inclusion, or pouring too cold...stuff happens. I remember the pics of the 2001 BMW GS forks and the grain structure looked like foam with voids and inclusions. Thankfully bad stuff doesn't happen very often.
Here is another one that popped up on my facebook last night, a GS800:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5638/22305888522_a3394fbbd9_z.jpg)
not my pic.
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The monoshock connection point on my Honda XL600 collapsed. Who do I sue?
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The monoshock connection point on my Honda XL600 collapsed. Who do I sue?
Yamaha?
Sorry, had to.
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The monoshock connection point on my Honda XL600 collapsed. Who do I sue?
Weight watchers?
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Guzzi had a single sided swingarm proto around 1990, before even Ducati thought about it.
(http://fastguzzi.nl/gallery/main.php/d/171-2/monobig.jpg)
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Is that because it is cast and not forged part? Is it more likely a forged part bends whereas cast breaks or are their too many other variables in the mix?
Castings, in general, behave in a brittle manner. A ductile material can however become brittle if, for example, it's strain-hardened into the material's plastic region (beyond its elastic limit). It may then behave like a brittle material if loaded repeatedly close to and/or beyond the point that corresponds to the plastic set. A ductile material can also behave like a brittle material if working in low temperatures (much like a toffee that was left in the sun vs one that was left in the fridge -- which would you rather chew? Odd analogy, but you get my point). There are other mechanisms too that can cause a material to behave in a brittle manner.
As an example that you can try at home: Take a soft steel wire that you bend permanently by hand, initially it will behave like a ductile material, but if you bend it back and forth enough times you can feel how the wire becomes stiffer (less compliant) and it will eventually snap because it becomes brittle. This process, in essence, is fatigue (albeit very low cycle fatigue).
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Actually, yes, Dear Leader Mod, I do see the statistical evidence of the successful many as outweighing the failure of a few, especially as the only persuasive failure to me seems to be the OP's.
TL;DR
Isn't that exactly the thinking that resulted in the Challenger explosion? "Lots of safe launches, so this one in the cold will be fine" when the question should have been, "We've only launched a few times in the cold, is this safe?"
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I see on one other forum that some people are mentioning abuse...
There were 6 other riders with me (two of whom were going much faster than me) that can attest to the fact that I wasn't abusing the bike. I weigh 81 kg, the bike wasn't loaded, no pillion (fortunately), so not an issue here. I was going 40 to 50 kph. The bike was recovered with a 2-wheel drive pick-up, so it's hardly tough going. The rim and tyre is still perfect, no bends, dents or broken spokes. The front suspension is still perfect (it wasn't close to knocking through and it's on the factory setting). I had to estimate it, but I've done between 4 or 7 thousand kilometers of gravel road riding (never off-road, that's what enduro bikes are for) and have only ever fallen in thick sand, but not with Stelvio. NTX = "Nuovo Tipo Cross", to me that says gravel riding is OK. ABS can be switched off, to me that says gravel road riding is OK. The bike is marketed against and compared to the GS, Super Tenere, etc.,
Spoked wheels...
No abuse people, just normal adventure riding, exactly what it was designed for.
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I doubt very much you were abusing it. The first case I heard of here in Oz that was my first thought but looking at the damage to that and then hearing of your very similar experience makes me doubt abuse. Firstly you're lucid and obviously not a knuckle dragger and secondly the circumstances of the failures seem quite similar, (I know nothing of the Canadian event.). One failure could be abuse or bad luck. Three, all seemingly on bikes of a similar vintage, would seem to indicate a systemic problem.
Pete
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I didn't read all the posts......... Millions of cars have aluminum suspension control arms (forged) so it's not something experimental...Alum inum has no limit of fatigue ,other words an aluminum part can fail even if not stressed to the design limit unlike steel that can last forever if not stressed beyond the limit. This is why aluminum connecting rods are generally only used in drag racing engines....And some vintage British motorcycles :grin:
If those swing arms aren't forged aluminum ..they should be...if they are forged then they need to be made of a different material or a totally different design...
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A cast aluminium swing arm originally designed for the 1100 Breva road bike is being used in the Stelvio a heavy weight 'adventure' bike used by owners in difficult terrain and a few failures have occurred, hmmm..
Possibly the casting is being pushed to it's limits off road and any slight structural flaw during manufacture can result in cracking. I would suspect the inspection of the castings will be on a sample basis so the odd rogue unit could easily creep through to assembly.
Surely the problem is safety related and the factory are obliged to investigate and recall effected machines immediately (unlike cam wear) if there is a problem.
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I didn't read all the posts......... Millions of cars have aluminum suspension control arms (forged) so it's not something experimental...Alum inum has no limit of fatigue ,other words an aluminum part can fail even if not stressed to the design limit unlike steel that can last forever if not stressed beyond the limit. This is why aluminum connecting rods are generally only used in drag racing engines....And some vintage British motorcycles :grin:
If those swing arms aren't forged aluminum ..they should be...if they are forged then they need to be made of a different material or a totally different design...
I would suspect a forging would difficult/costly to produce and would be heavier.
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A forging would be more expensive.
A forging requires different and more equipment to make.
A forging would not have broken.
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I still don't believe it's a design issue.
Look through some of these pictures. This Stelvio did a 62,000 mile trip around the world in far worse conditions than the OP posted pictures of, and no CARC failure.
http://www.stelvio2stelvio.it/images
I would suspect a bad run of castings. My other theory is perhaps galvanic corrosion with a dissimilar bolt material into the aluminum casting. I can't imagine why that would happen on a particular model year more than another unless perhaps they changed the material of the bolt.
It'll be interesting to see what Piaggio/Guzzi come up with on that. It's clearly going to require a metallurgist looking at it to determine cause. The part is about 500 bucks I think and in the long run, a recall of them (if it comes to it) sounds like it'll be cheaper than the roller kits.
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This part would be impossible to forge in one piece. The Aprilia swing arms appear to be extruded in several pieces, then welded.
Galvanic corrosion- I don't think so. You would see the threads packed with aluminum oxide.
Honestly, I think that the hole was an add on that was drilled and tapped after designing the plug for the mold. The hole is in the bold face of the casting- so it really is a weak spot- or at least an anomaly- in the rest of the surface. Normally, you'd have a thickened section, or boss, which then would be drilled and tapped.
It's very hard to predict fatigue and it doesn't mean all units must fail in order to be a design issue. The onset of fracture initiation can be a real coin toss.
So Doug- tell me you didn't rush up to the garage and shimmy under your bike to check your swing arm??? :)
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Possibly the casting is being pushed to it's limits off road and any slight structural flaw during manufacture can result in cracking.
Any decent safety related part should be designed for several times the load it will ever see in real life. Automotive components often use a factor of three times the expected maximum load. This is specifically to prevent a part from being pushed to its limit.
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This part would be impossible to forge in one piece. The Aprilia swing arms appear to be extruded in several pieces, then welded.
I agree, not practical.
It would be an easy thing to add a rib, or just more metal, near that highly stress point.
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The bikes that go 60k plus miles without a failure doesn't mean much, 3 that went went down and had catastrophic safety related failures does mean a lot.
It means that anyone with a Stelvio of those model years, for the most part, is thinking about it and anyone thinking about buying or selling one is probably going to either pass on the purchase or have a hard time selling it at a good price, depending on how fast word travels.
The Stelvio that goes 60k miles on mixed roads including non paved roads is great. Doesn't mean a thing unless information is available to determine that swingarm isn't affected. Right now, no one knows but those who are aware of the three failures are thinking about it, they'd be crazy not to.
There are paved roads that make gravel roads look and feel like ribbons of pristine asphalt, so far Norge's haven't been affected, maybe the Norge uses a different swingarm? Some owners to load up their bikes and hitting some rough paved roads can easily setup worse conditions than some gravel roads.
No doomsday for sure but this isn't something that should wait until the next one. Thank goodness none of these failures happened as the owner was headed down some road, two up at 80mph and pray it never happens.
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This part would be impossible to forge in one piece. The Aprilia swing arms appear to be extruded in several pieces, then welded.
Galvanic corrosion- I don't think so. You would see the threads packed with aluminum oxide.
Honestly, I think that the hole was an add on that was drilled and tapped after designing the plug for the mold. The hole is in the bold face of the casting- so it really is a weak spot- or at least an anomaly- in the rest of the surface. Normally, you'd have a thickened section, or boss, which then would be drilled and tapped.
It's very hard to predict fatigue and it doesn't mean all units must fail in order to be a design issue. The onset of fracture initiation can be a real coin toss.
So Doug- tell me you didn't rush up to the garage and shimmy under your bike to check your swing arm??? :)
Nope. Not yet. May glance at it tomorrow when I get to work, but honestly, if it hasn't failed yet in the 63,000 miles of crap I've put it through, it probably isn't going to.
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There are a lot of factors at play here. Nobody has mentioned resonant frequency. It's most likely a combination of a number of factors that all combine to cause a failure; casting variables (pour temp, inclusions, insufficient venting), hole drilling and tapping, base metal, load (static load, cyclic load, torsion).
It may be that a washboard road set up a resonant frequency to start the crack. The road could appear and in fact be "a mild gravel road" without large pot holes but the 3 cases may have just hit the right combination of load and vibration to reveal a potential problem.
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So far it hasn't happened in the USA (?) because I doubt the NTSA would overlook it in the current climate. Do we know if any of the failures have been reported to government agencies? Perhaps the reports have gone only to dealers. If the dealer takes care of it in some handshake agreement with the factory, it wouldn't go past that would it?
NTSA expects failures to be reported by owners of the failed vehicle. Do you really think a dealer or mfg. is going to let NTSA know every time they have a failure? No customer complaints, no interest by the NTSA.
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NTSA expects failures to be reported by owners of the failed vehicle. Do you really think a dealer or mfg. is going to let NTSA know every time they have a failure? No customer complaints, no interest by the NTSA.
None of my points in that post even hinted that the dealers or anyone but the owners would or should report the incidents.
The point you missed was that there could possibly be other failures but depending on how they were handled, no one but the owner, dealer and factory would know. After all, not all Stelvio owners read or participate on this forum and if a cracked swingarm was simply replaced by the dealer with factory supplied parts, that owner might not report it at all. Thus, there could be failures that did happen, did not get reported and no one would hear about it.
Read what I wrote once more, it will become clear.
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I agree, not practical.
It would be an easy thing to add a rib, or just more metal, near that highly stress point.
If designed different it could be forged . Cost is always a factor of course... But I believe no one who wants a Guzzi would blink at a 100 buck increase in price.
And what triple Jim says about safety factor leads up to perhaps poor engineering.....Unl ess the bike is making insane stunt jumps no kind of road going abuse should cause such a failure..
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Nope. Not yet. May glance at it tomorrow when I get to work, but honestly, if it hasn't failed yet in the 63,000 miles of crap I've put it through, it probably isn't going to.
True enough. This is probably limited to certain swingarms being used in certain riding conditions. I imagine it could even be that one suspension setup would allow the failure to happen yet another, different setup would not. Maybe even the rider that sits on the seat over ripples vs the one that stands up, changing where the most load is transferred.
Hopefully, MG figures it out and doesn't remain silent, just fixing them as failure occur. That would do zilch to instill confidence in the model years affected. Their best bet is to figure it out, issue clear communications to owners of all Stelvio or those bike models that use the same swingarm explaining the problem, solution and costs to owners if any.
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There are a lot of factors at play here. Nobody has mentioned resonant frequency. It's most likely a combination of a number of factors that all combine to cause a failure; casting variables (pour temp, inclusions, insufficient venting), hole drilling and tapping, base metal, load (static load, cyclic load, torsion).
It may be that a washboard road set up a resonant frequency to start the crack. The road could appear and in fact be "a mild gravel road" without large pot holes but the 3 cases may have just hit the right combination of load and vibration to reveal a potential problem.
Or preload adjustment. If the preload is not set properly, and the shock is being bottomed out, that might add a lot of impact type stress. I found the spring on the stock 2009 pretty weak when loaded.
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Their best bet is to figure it out, issue clear communications to owners of all Stelvio or those bike models that use the same swingarm explaining the problem, solution and costs to owners if any.
AFAIK only these three bikes we've heard about but I'm checking the service site regularly, if and when there is any announcement I'll let people know. Safety notices are always red flagged.
Pete
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Or preload adjustment. If the preload is not set properly, and the shock is being bottomed out, that might add a lot of impact type stress. I found the spring on the stock 2009 pretty weak when loaded.
What limits the travel of the arm? Coil binding? CARC rotation within the case? There's no "hard stop", is there?
Best,
Peter
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None of my points in that post even hinted that the dealers or anyone but the owners would or should report the incidents.
The point you missed was that there could possibly be other failures but depending on how they were handled, no one but the owner, dealer and factory would know. After all, not all Stelvio owners read or participate on this forum and if a cracked swingarm was simply replaced by the dealer with factory supplied parts, that owner might not report it at all. Thus, there could be failures that did happen, did not get reported and no one would hear about it.
Read what I wrote once more, it will become clear.
What I said here was not pointed at what you said. It is just a general statement of all X failures and the NTSA knowing about them.
A number of 500 MP3s have had their pistons break up and Piaggio has not made good on this occurance to the customers. :sad:
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And what triple Jim says about safety factor leads up to perhaps poor engineering.....Unl ess the bike is making insane stunt jumps no kind of road going abuse should cause such a failure..
It could be poor engineering or it could be flaws in the castings that result in the part being 1/3 as strong as the engineer(s) expected it to be (for example). It's really all speculation until a real analysis is done.
If this were happening to an engineering design I was responsible for, I'd probably be building a test rig to do dynamic testing on every assembly before it's put into use, at least until the cause of the problem is determined and a solution found.
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It could be poor engineering or it could be flaws in the castings that result in the part being 1/3 as strong as the engineer(s) expected it to be (for example). It's really all speculation until a real analysis is done.
If this were happening to an engineering design I was responsible for, I'd probably be building a test rig to do dynamic testing on every assembly before it's put into use, at least until the cause of the problem is determined and a solution found.
All hypothetical of course, if the test rig revealed that the swingarms had defects and were used across multiple models but only one model had shown in actual use failures, is the appropriate solution to fix only the models where they are anticipated to be used in similar conditions as the failed representatives or do you apply the fix to the entire mix regardless of application?
That seems like it would get very expensive for the factory unless the parts were sourced from a third party and then the money follows the problem back to its origin, assuming the design was good and the casting was not.
With the airbags for example, initially Dodge didn't recall airbags for trucks that weren't operated in humid conditions but then decided to recall them regardless of where the trucks were registered, apparently because someone clued them in that trucks, like cars can move around.
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All hypothetical of course, if the test rig revealed that the swingarms had defects and were used across multiple models but only one model had shown in actual use failures, is the appropriate solution to fix only the models where they are anticipated to be used in similar conditions as the failed representatives or do you apply the fix to the entire mix regardless of application?
If they didn't prove to be as strong as they were designed to be, 3x max load for example, due to defects, design or manufacturing errors, or whatever, I wouldn't use them. But then I'm not in charge of this problem, so what I think or would do isn't very relevant, I guess.
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I understand that aluminium will crack when holes have flash left around the edges. The edges of holes need to be smoorthly chamfered.
The earliest incident related to this is possibly the disastrous failure of pressure skins on the 50s De Havilland Comet Jetliners, which mysteriously fell out of the sky after some use. After 6 months testing in an over-sized bath tub ;-) they found a crack appeared at a hole used for mounting a window frame, and traced the cause to the hole having not been cleaned around after drilling.
At the risk of high jacking the thread, that snippet about the Comet is very interesting. I knew about the cracks developing around a window but not why. The Comet was a tragedy really. It was a wonderful design and deserved to be successful, but it was breaking new ground and there in lie the risks. It reminds us how close to destruction some of our more extreme machines are, or might be.
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They were corner cracks as i recall. Classic field case of fatigue.
If anyone here wants a truly great book about materials and failure for the non scientist, I would highly recommend J/E. Gordon's New Science of Strong Materials -or why you don't fall through the floor. He's a dotty Brit engineer who worked, amongst other things, on the Mosquito program during WWII. His explanations of how things work and why they break is as entertaining as it is seminal.
I just saw it for $1.00 on ABE books:
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?an=j.+e.+gordon&sts=t
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This conversation is what happens when men give up all hope of getting laid.
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This conversation is what happens when men give up all hope of getting laid.
Or don't care anymore :grin:
Dusty
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Or have hope, do care and work hard toward the goal only to realize the deep breathes are those of deep sleep.
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Or have hope, do care and work hard toward the goal only to realize the deep breathes are those of deep sleep.
Except such knowledge assumes the couple still sleeps in the same bed or bedroom. :undecided:
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It could be poor engineering or it could be flaws in the castings that result in the part being 1/3 as strong as the engineer(s) expected it to be (for example). It's really all speculation until a real analysis is done.
If this were happening to an engineering design I was responsible for, I'd probably be building a test rig to do dynamic testing on every assembly before it's put into use, at least until the cause of the problem is determined and a solution found.
Casting flaws can still be bad engineering...The Italian industry is capable of state of the art alloy vehicle parts. If it's a dozen swingarms made at the same time you can say it's casting flaws..But if it's random failures, that's something else...
Yes.. boring... but mentioning the sexual habits of old men on an internet motorcycle sites is a bit scary..... :drool:
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This conversation is what happens when men give up all hope of getting laid.
OK Chad, why don't you drift the thread with a discussion of how to establish your own sense of fashion with a sidelight on eyebrow waxing.
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So I looked at the bottom of my CARC (sounds dirty. :laugh:) and this is what I found.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/DougRitchie/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-10/Picture_20153521063558.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/DougRitchie/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-10/Picture_20153521063558.jpg.html)
It looks like this is a type of plastic/nylon push fastener. Doesn't look like it's a threaded bolt or anything else at all. Is this what the new ones look like too? I'm curious.
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Hmmm, is it my imagination or is that different to the pics on the first page posted by Green1000s? I agree, don't see why a tapped hole is required, unless that little plastic clip somehow screws in? Intriguing.
Could we have some more pictures by Stelvio owners, please!
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Hmmm, is it my imagination or is that different to the pics on the first page posted by Green1000s? I agree, don't see why a tapped hole is required, unless that little plastic clip somehow screws in? Intriguing.
Could we have some more pictures by Stelvio owners, please!
Looks the same on the Norge, at least 2013 & forward. Maybe including tabs in the casting was more difficult than drilling and tapping holes?
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The plastic clip has threads more or less but is simply pushed into the whole.
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The plastic clip has threads more or less but is simply pushed into the whole.
Yeah, that is commonly done on automotive fasteners. Makes it removable without destroying it, but still stays put.
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The plastic clip has threads more or less but is simply pushed into the whole.
:thumb: how it works. They are the one time use clips although you could probably remove it and reuse. If it breaks off, what is left behind is likely a real bugger to remove and crazy if it ends up inside. They seem to hold up well though, well, the plastic thingy anyway :evil:
Over time, they get brittle and they hold until you remove them at which time they break into very small pieces, if they are anything like those used on cars, the ridged portion falling behind the panel never to be found again.
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Could you post the year and serial number of your bike. I have a 2012 and I am wondering if Guzzi had a bad batch of swingarms because this problem seems very rare, but very worrying at the same time.
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Could you post the year and serial number of your bike. I have a 2012 and I am wondering if Guzzi had a bad batch of swingarms because this problem seems very rare, but very worrying at the same time.
I'm trying to collect numbers, and have now 1.5 If someone knows how to contact the Australian owner to get me the VIN. I can lookup production date with that. Three bikes out of a few thousand is very litte to draw conclusions. Who has seen the production process in the factory, knows that not all part come and get mounted in a first in first ouit way, it's in batches. If you have a VIn or enginenumber and another that is 10 higher, that doesn't tell you the low number is made earlier. If they are mode then 100 apart, then chances are good that the lower number is made earlier.
Engines waiting to be tested in the blue test cabines.
(http://fastguzzi.nl/gallery/main.php/d/4876-1/DSC02041+_Small_.JPG)
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Well I can confirm they the holes are threaded, M8. Not sure of the clips are press in or themselves threaded, I pried one out. If I can I'll post a couple of pics later.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/563/22358009162_88f6592c3a_c.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5684/22345092756_482a3a15d8_c.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/585/21748309984_c012e0f5d9_c.jpg)
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If the swing arm supports the wheel from one side, and it broke under the rider's and its own weight, why is the tire tipped and turned the way it is? Shouldn't the gearbox side be down? Wouldn't such an accident try to pull the unit apart? The unit looks compressed. It sort of looks more like impact damage to me. YMMV
You could represent the manufacturer in court, they need expert witnesses like you, in fact they're are a few on here who seem to have this expert opinion, hope none of you have it happen yourselves, be a horrible epitaph.
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I'm trying to collect numbers, and have now 1.5 If someone knows how to contact the Australian owner to get me the VIN. I can lookup production date with that. Three bikes out of a few thousand is very litte to draw conclusions. Who has seen the production process in the factory, knows that not all part come and get mounted in a first in first ouit way, it's in batches. If you have a VIn or enginenumber and another that is 10 higher, that doesn't tell you the low number is made earlier. If they are mode then 100 apart, then chances are good that the lower number is made earlier.
Engines waiting to be tested in the blue test cabines.
(http://fastguzzi.nl/gallery/main.php/d/4876-1/DSC02041+_Small_.JPG)
There was link to auction site in other thread would've had VIN but no longer available
Doubt owner kept record of VIN but importer would certainly know, probably Pickles (auction house) too
I'm still puzzled why importer didn't test broken arm and / or shock etc, I would've for sure, selling as is let a whole lot more people know, not wise IMHO
Guess they're treating it like cam problem, case by case appraisal, if in warranty they'll pay
If out you need FSH, guess they'll actually pay in both cases but only if you push. If people pay for cams they're happier, why not swinging arms ?
Doubt they'd fight a claim in court, just down to whether anybody needs to do it, I'd expect dealers to deal with this, if factory don't pay they're next in line for a writ.
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Got the Vin# of the Oz bike, PM'd it to Paul to see if its close to the other known failures.
Pete
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Or preload adjustment. If the preload is not set properly, and the shock is being bottomed out, that might add a lot of impact type stress. I found the spring on the stock 2009 pretty weak when loaded.
Rebound, as one of the forum members PM'd me, can also cause problems. If riding along on a bumpy road with corrugations and rebound damping is set too high compared to compression damping, the spring will pack (basically it doesn't get enough time to expand between loads from the corrugation). The the shock can then easily "bottom out" since the coils will be touching one another at that point, or they might be very close to one another so that effectively you have no more travel on the spring. All the load then goes through the wheel and swing-arm into the frame. Still, one would hope that the swing arm is stronger than the wheel, which clearly was not the case in my failure since the wheel and tyre is still in perfect condition.
I've been on rides where guys hit a washout in a gravel road and they bend rims, if that happens you should definitively inspect the suspension and ancillary parts.
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Rebound, as one of the forum members PM'd me, can also cause problems. If riding along on a bumpy road with corrugations and rebound damping is set too high compared to compression damping, the spring will pack (basically it doesn't get enough time to expand between loads from the corrugation). The the shock can then easily "bottom out" since the coils will be touching one another at that point, or they might be very close to one another so that effectively you have no more travel on the spring. All the load then goes through the wheel and swing-arm into the frame. Still, one would hope that the swing arm is stronger than the wheel, which clearly was not the case in my failure since the wheel and tyre is still in perfect condition.
I've been on rides where guys hit a washout in a gravel road and they bend rims, if that happens you should definitively inspect the suspension and ancillary parts.
Nearly right, sorry, have to say it now
Shock will bottom out long before spring coil binds on anything halfway well designed
First you hit the rubbery bump stop, then that compresses till it can't (very high speed comp damping)
Then the load goes somewhere else
Might be problem, might not.
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Just closing the loop...
Here's another, almost identical failure: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=79597.0
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Yes, perhaps this thread should be merged. That way the poorly analysed target will be even easier for haters to aim at.
Alternatively, we can try and get some USEFUL data and evidence to make informed decisions and choices. Here? Fat chance I fear......
Pete
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With all this negative discussion around the Stelvio it might be good to inject some positive vibe.
50 plus paying homage to the creator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84taL6pT4og (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84taL6pT4og)
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My goal is not trying to make it easier for haters.
I accept that it may be bad luck on my part, but I'm not the only person in the world who can strike it bad, so I think it's fair that other riders of Stelvios should know about this.
If we had useful data, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Perhaps try to see this as an attempt to get some useful data, unfortunately I can't add anything more than what I wrote in my original post.
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Nearly right, sorry, have to say it now
Shock will bottom out long before spring coil binds on anything halfway well designed
First you hit the rubbery bump stop, then that compresses till it can't (very high speed comp damping)
Then the load goes somewhere else
Might be problem, might not.
Yes, the bump stop was destroyed on my original shock. Not saying anything about the overloaded rear seat. :thewife:
I had the shock resprung and revalved. Now it never bottom out, and seldom reaches fully extended.
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Again, parts like this need to be designed for worst case loads times a safety factor like three. Worst case could be a bottoming shock with a 250 lb driver and 300 lb passenger. If it is, design for three times that load.
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With all this negative discussion around the Stelvio it might be good to inject some positive vibe.
50 plus paying homage to the creator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84taL6pT4og (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84taL6pT4og)
:thumb:
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When you load 500 pounds on a 600 pound motorcycle, your problems started some time before that. Time to rethink what you're doing.
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When you load 500 pounds on a 600 pound motorcycle, your problems started some time before that. Time to rethink what you're doing.
From my observations, that's more the norm than the exception, at least among the patrons of the motorcycle bars in my area.
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Yes, you design not for sensible customers, but for worst case customers. Back in the '80s I was given the task of designing some quick-erect military vehicle decoys. The design had been narrowed down to use standard frames that were available like the ones you see at trade shows that start out as a bundle of aluminum sticks, and when you give a pull, they quickly make a wall suitable for hanging display posters and things like that. My question was then whether or not they'd hold up to life in the military.
I recruited a coworker, and we took two of these frames, one from each of two manufacturers, to a park and dragged them around in the dirt, pulling on single aluminum tubes, dropping large rocks on them, and doing anything we could think of to damage them. We learned that one was less susceptible to damage than the other, but the damage it did sustain was not field repairable. The other one suffered more damage, but the aluminum tubes mainly popped out of their end fittings and could be replaced by hand. The test taught us a lot.
The point is that the design was based on what could happen from abuse, not what happened when treated with respect by nice, careful people.
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When you load 500 pounds on a 600 pound motorcycle, your problems started some time before that. Time to rethink what you're doing.
I agree, but I'll bet that's still well within the bike's GVWR. I regularly load 300+ pounds of rider and passenger on my 400 pound bike and it handles it with ease. The Stelvio is marketed as an adventure bike, ready to take you and all your gear to the far corners of the globe. All components on the bike should be up to the task. This certainly isn't cause for panic, but the failures we've seen are pretty dramatic. If I had a Stelvio I'd definitely be out in the garage right now with a flashlight inspecting the swingarm for cracks, assuming there even is a crack that shows up before failure.
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When you load 500 pounds on a 600 pound motorcycle, your problems started some time before that. Time to rethink what you're doing.
Ratio seems reasonable to me.
Might be because I ride a mountain bike..
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Yes, the bump stop was destroyed on my original shock. Not saying anything about the overloaded rear seat. :thewife:
I had the shock resprung and revalved. Now it never bottom out, and seldom reaches fully extended.
Uh oh.. :thewife: She's a redhead, too..
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My goal is not trying to make it easier for haters.
I understand that. My feeling is that since all three failures we know about have been on machines from what seems to be a very small window of manufacture there was probably a bad batch of castings. This is particularly worrying because nobody knows how many might be flawed.
I'll be writing to our tech and warranty wallahs later today and trying to see if we can shake some action. If we can get some input from the factory on what Vin's might be affected they can be summoned in for, at the very least, an inspection. The last thing I want is people, particularly my customers, being injured or killed.
Pete
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Well after reading the details of both arm failures and seeing the pictures I would be drilling out the cable mount hole to the thread root depth and would then do a dye pen check (kit price around $30au) All being well I would then cold work the hole and use a rubber well nut to hold the cable clip.
Looks fairly clear to me the cable clip hole is most likely source of the crack propogation but even if its not the above wouldnt hurt.
Ciao
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I understand that. My feeling is that since all three failures we know about have been on machines from what seems to be a very small window of manufacture there was probably a bad batch of castings. This is particularly worrying because nobody knows how many might be flawed.
I'll be writing to our tech and warranty wallahs later today and trying to see if we can shake some action. If we can get some input from the factory on what Vin's might be affected they can be summoned in for, at the very least, an inspection. The last thing I want is people, particularly my customers, being injured or killed.
Pete
That is a very considerate and noble thing to do.
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That is a very considerate and noble thing to do.
No, it's the right thing to do and it's also arse-covering. If I think there might be a problem and I've alerted the 'Powers That Be' nobody can complain I didn't pass on information. Arse Covered! An email trail is a useful thing.
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Yes, the bump stop was destroyed on my original shock. Not saying anything about the overloaded rear seat. :thewife:
I had the shock resprung and revalved. Now it never bottom out, and seldom reaches fully extended.
And this is exactly what I'd be looking at if I was inspecting the bikes
Symptom & cause
Repeated bottoming hard could be taking swingingarm where it was never meant to go, finally to heaven, repeat, could be
OP (Bill?)
Is your bump stop intact ?
Pete
Do you know where the Pickles bike went ?
Wayne
why your shock doesn't fully extend leaving bumps is another issue, , go pro film of shock working hard would tell you.
If your back wheel leaves the ground without shock extending, next hit will be big & probably harsh, hitting sleeping policeman fast good test.
Hope that translates into Merkan, is colloquial for "speed bump"
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I wonder if Ewen McGregor is taking an extra swing arm with him on his next adventure...
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No idea where it went. I called pickles and they were less than helpful. I was going to bid on it but it went stupid.
Pete
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Can anyone with a Stelvio post the allowable gross weight of the bike? Should be on a sticker somewhere.
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OP (Bill?)
Is your bump stop intact ?
Yes, as far as I could see. Would even slight damage be visible?
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Yes, as far as I could see. Would even slight damage be visible?
Yep, theory was good but Wayne destroying one without breaking swinging arm is pretty good test.
I've destroyed them too, mustn't blame the girl, it's the springs I should've changed. no further damage to the ol dunger
(broke more than one shock in it's life too, but never 2 at once).
Still not impossible it rock bottom just a few times really, really hard but I'm going off that idea, metallurgist's view on crack / break should be on dealer, importer or factory's agenda.
What's official response like ?
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No matter of the the load the swingarm should not fail in any case!!
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Well, it's clear that Moto Guzzi has been unloading their defective reject products to backward third world countries like South Africa, Australia and Canada. I think we're safe in the US of A as long as we remain in the first world.
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No, it's the right thing to do and it's also arse-covering. If I think there might be a problem and I've alerted the 'Powers That Be' nobody can complain I didn't pass on information. Arse Covered! An email trail is a useful thing.
And if there is a next case, it will be hard for them to do if it was the first case. Examining failed parts is a science. So I hope they do that serious with the one from SA
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What's official response like ?
None yet, the bike only arrived at the local importer today. And they're not the original importers, it switched hand a year or two ago. Will keep this forum posted about the response.
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Well after reading the details of both arm failures and seeing the pictures I would be drilling out the cable mount hole to the thread root depth and would then do a dye pen check (kit price around $30au) All being well I would then cold work the hole and use a rubber well nut to hold the cable clip.
Looks fairly clear to me the cable clip hole is most likely source of the crack propogation but even if its not the above wouldnt hurt.
Ciao
I'm with Phil on this. At any rate, that's what I'd do if it were my bike.
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Well, it's clear that Moto Guzzi has been unloading their defective reject products to backward third world countries like South Africa, Australia and Canada. I think we're safe in the US of A as long as we remain in the first world.
My first laugh out loud today. Thanks for that!
Also, I believe the proper name is Murica.
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Well, it's clear that Moto Guzzi has been unloading their defective reject products to backward third world countries like South Africa, Australia and Canada. I think we're safe in the US of A as long as we remain in the first world.
I wouldn't group Australia and Canada in the same group as South Africa :laugh:
Doubt the Italians have such sinister motives.
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Well, it's clear that Moto Guzzi has been unloading their defective reject products to backward third world countries like South Africa, Australia and Canada. I think we're safe in the US of A as long as we remain in the first world.
I think the alcohol in the fuel is what saved us here in the US.
:grin:
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...drilling out the cable mount hole...
...then cold work the hole...
cleaning out the threads makes good sense.
As to cold working: Is somebody really going to contact FTI and explain to them how you'd like to cold work an unknown aluminum cast alloy and to please send the mandrel and tools necessary? If so, it would be more economical to set up a service shop and run every CARC through. I've no experience with the results of doing this to a casting, but the high tolerance reaming required is going to take some robust tooling.
By the way, in aircraft landing gear trunions (forged aluminum), there are a couple of design options for routing the hydraulic and electrical lines: a hose-clamp-type affair and bonding of the holder to the aluminum. You might drill a hole to attach the landing gear door rod, but never for this sort of thing; no f&dt engineer would sign that drawing.
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Seems like if that is indeed the weak point, then the best option would have been for them to cast a boss for the attachment and drill that, rather than have it penetrate the arm.
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Well, it's clear that Moto Guzzi has been unloading their defective reject products to backward third world countries like South Africa, Australia and Canada. I think we're safe in the US of A as long as we remain in the first world.
Joking apart, big businesses have met their match in the US in the last few years. They often treat their customers with contempt in other parts of the world but are treading a lot more carefully thanks to the Americans.
To name but a few. HSBC, BP and FIFA.
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Seems like if that is indeed the weak point, then the best option would have been for them to cast a boss for the attachment and drill that, rather than have it penetrate the arm.
Yup, many options to hold wires and hoses including a tube of some kind to make things look very tidy and offer some protection from road debris.
Question is, does MG just fix actual failures one by one, at either ownersbexpwnse irbwarranty or do they analyze the failure and apply a fix to the batch or batches directly affected?
Then, what would considered a sufficient and reasonable time to make the determination and will it be made known to owners via official communications?
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Question is, does MG just fix actual failures one by one, at either ownersbexpwnse irbwarranty or do they analyze the failure and apply a fix to the batch or batches directly affected?
I think if it's life-threatening and a potential for numerous lawsuits, as in the case of the Stelvio/Norge suspension link, MG will do a recall and fix the affected batch.
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I think if it's life-threatening and a potential for numerous lawsuits, as in the case of the Stelvio/Norge suspension link, MG will do a recall and fix the affected batch.
In vehicle defects, as with politicians, it's not the crime that gets them in trouble, it's the coverup.
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cleaning out the threads makes good sense.
As to cold working: Is somebody really going to contact FTI and explain to them how you'd like to cold work an unknown aluminum cast alloy and to please send the mandrel and tools necessary? . . .
FTI?
I'm an Aircraft Engineer, we have all the necessary tooling at work . . . :thumb:
I'm sure it would be enough though to tap a Ball Bearing of the required size through the hole a few times to be honest.
Riveting does a similar job too, would be easy enough to machine up an Aluminium stud, with a plain shank to rivet into the hole, or fit a Rivnut.
Can anyone with a Stelvio post the allowable gross weight of the bike? Should be on a sticker somewhere.
Sticker on the Headstock of my '09 quotes [MAX WEIGHT 495KG]
Given the Bike weighs around 300, that doesn't leave a lot of leeway once you add Rider and Pillion, say 90kg each fully kitted out?
That leaves only 15kg for tools/luggage/extra fuel etc . . . :shocked:
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FTI?
I'm an Aircraft Engineer, we have all the necessary tooling at work . . . :thumb:
I'm sure it would be enough though to tap a Ball Bearing of the required size through the hole a few times to be honest.
Riveting does a similar job too, would be easy enough to machine up an Aluminium stud, with a plain shank to rivet into the hole, or fit a Rivnut.
Yes Im from the aviation industry as well and when I made the suggestion I didnt think it would be all that hard either. You can buy Kline valve guide broachs in various sizes that would work but then again I like to focus on what can be done more than what cant.
Ciao
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FTI?
I'm an Aircraft Engineer...
Not heard of FTI?
It is very likely (I'd say 100%), if you look at whatever cold-working equipment and mandrels and split sleeve bushings and so on that you have, they are all licensed and sourced from FTI. These guys are the ones who have done virtually all cold work investigations and development work for aircraft use (they've got the patents). The process was invented by Boeing (Seattle)--and FTI (then under a different name) came out of that work. They supply all the OEMs.
I would not "tap a ball bearing through a few times." Yes; swelling a rivet in the clean hole would help against a fatigue crack, but the reason that works is altogether different from the improvement from cold working.
On the plus side, the hole does let you know you've got a seal leak.
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Not heard of FTI?
On the plus side, the hole does let you know you've got a seal leak.
That was how I discovered a seal leak before the rear end ran dry. There might be a better way but any fluid dripping out if those holes does give you warning something is amiss.
To clarify, the level was just a tad low but had I not seen the drip it would have gone too low at some point, even with regular checking.
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Never actually used the Cold Working kit myself, but have seen it in use some years ago.
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Just a quick update: the local importer compiled a damage report on the bike, now we wait for Piaggio :clock:
No idea how long it will take.
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This conversation is what happens when men give up all hope of getting laid.
Where do you think engineers come from? :grin:
When I was at Arizona State studying mechanical engineering, every night was a choice between trying to get laid or having a conversation like this one.
Usually, the latter scenario won out and eventually I graduated. I don't regret the times I chose the former though option though.....have you seen the scenery at ASU?
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When I was at Arizona State studying mechanical engineering, every night was a choice between trying to get laid or having a conversation like this one.
Every NIGHT?
Now you're just bragging .... you're not the only one that went to school as a young man .... :laugh: :evil:
Lannis
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Oh how I wish for every night again.............. .opps, sorry, boys. Off topic!
What were we talking about, again?
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Every NIGHT?
Now you're just bragging .... you're not the only one that went to school as a young man .... :laugh: :evil:
Lannis
Ha ha...no read it again...
Every night was a choice between TRYING...not succeeding....or studying. My success rate on the nights I chose to avoid studying was a much smaller number than the number of nights I was out trying.
Maybe I was bragging a little :evil:....but not that much. With my looks, nothing is a sure thing! :shocked:
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Ha ha...no read it again...
Every night was a choice between TRYING...not succeeding....or studying. My success rate on the nights I chose to avoid studying was a much smaller number than the number of nights I was out trying.
Maybe I was bragging a little :evil:....but not that much. With my looks, nothing is a sure thing! :shocked:
Gotcha. "Trying" all the time was a common occurrence.... :embarassed:
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Yes, but a quick google image search for ASU + women yields motivation to take a while to achieve your degree...
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Oh how I wish for every night again.............. .opps, sorry, boys. Off topic!
What were we talking about, again?
Shaft failure?
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Damn!
No like button . . .
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Any good news from the trenches?
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No news yet. Hopefully this week. I'll post as soon as I get a reply from Piaggio via my local importer.
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For those still interested in this: my local agent informed me that the parts are being shipped to Italy for further investigations, but that's all I have for now. I'm sure Piaggio will get to the bottom of this, the Italians pride themselves on the quality of their bikes.
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There are many people, myself included, who remain very interested. Thanks for the update.
Pete
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Yes, thank you. I don't own a CARC bike but I really like Moto Guzzi and hope this is a complete fluke and that they stand behind their bike.
Besides I am curious!
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Glad to see this has been turned into a fact finding mission :thumb:
Dusty
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Quote from: Norge Pilot on October 22, 2015, 11:24:36 PM
Can anyone with a Stelvio post the allowable gross weight of the bike? Should be on a sticker somewhere.
Sticker on the Headstock of my '09 quotes [MAX WEIGHT 495KG]
Given the Bike weighs around 300, that doesn't leave a lot of leeway once you add Rider and Pillion, say 90kg each fully kitted out?
That leaves only 15kg for tools/luggage/extra fuel etc . . . :shocked:
For the Muricans in the group. 495KG minus the 300KG bike leaves 195KG. That equals about 429 lbs. The 90KG rider and 90kg pillion equals about 400lbs. 29 lbs doesn't leave a lot of room for luggage.
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I still find it hard to believe that weight alone caused it. Perhaps if the shock bottoms out and the shock is tranmitted to the swing arm. Who knows. I do know that I've loaded the hell out of mine with no ill effect.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/DougRitchie/X-country%202012/IMAG0302.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/DougRitchie/media/X-country%202012/IMAG0302.jpg.html)
This was taken during a cross country trip that included a run up to Alaska and 7000 miles or so back to Massachusetts. For a couple of thousand miles I also had a friend ride as pillion. The only issue I had was a couple of loose spokes which I nipped up along the way. The bike was loaded with clothes, camping gear, fuel etc. A substantial amount of weight.
It'll be interesting to see what Guzzi finds.
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My guess would be cyclic loading creating a crack at a stress raising point that being the threaded cable mount hole. The frequency of the loading (arm movement over time interval) and the acceleration of the arm (how fast it moves over a given time period) in combination with the strain imposed (weight) causes the issue.
Thing is there are some many operating variables, combined with manufacturing variables its difficult to predict which will crack and which will be fine. Truth is they will all almost certainly crack eventually but it may not be before the practicle life of the bike is over anyway.
If I had one of these arms fitted to my bike I would at the very least clean the threads out of the hole and finish the hole interior surface to a high standard and use a rubber well plug to attach the clamp. Garanteed to at least help the situation.
Ciao
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Here is an article that describes what could be a cause, i.e. a casting issue. http://www.totalmateria.com/Article83.htm
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Given the amount of stuff that gets stuffed into rear top cases, its amazing you don't see them cracking and falling off bikes all over the place. After the weight if the top case itself, the loading weight left equals about ibe roll of toilet paper and a box of cotton balls.
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Given the 'litigation-happy' nature of most of the World's Markets nowadays, I'm sure all manufacturers leave a fair-sized 'safety margin' when setting things like weight limits.
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Piaggio came back and said it's not a factory fault/defect. I have nothing more that that, unfortunately.
Anyway, my bad luck, I suppose.
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Piaggio came back and said it's not a factory fault/defect. I have nothing more that that, unfortunately.
Anyway, my bad luck, I suppose.
Good luck I'd say, many places I've been that could of been so much worse, dead not out of question.
Did they say who's fault/defect it was ? Act of God maybe ?
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No reasons given, no fingers pointed. They cannot claim abuse on my part because the bike has a full service history with the dealers, the bike still looks like new (baring the swing-arm), and the rear shock and wheel didn't get damaged or bent or anything of the sort. I can't claim it's a design fault (the tapped hole) because there are many out there not breaking. So it's a stalemate. There's no point in fighting this, I won't get anywhere, I will just have to buy another bike.
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Hate to say it but after my experience yesterday at our importer I'm unsurprised.
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It is unfortunate.
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Thanks.
No, it's money I can put towards a new bike. At least I have an interesting story to tell.
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Piaggio came back and said it's not a factory fault/defect. I have nothing more that that, unfortunately.
Anyway, my bad luck, I suppose.
That sure don't give me a warm fuzzy feeling about Moto Guzzi/Piaggio, it seems to me that they should have at least offered to replace the parts.
Bob
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Many years ago I was considering working for Maserati/ Moto Guzzi as a tech rep. I asked a friend who worked for them how it would be. He said that besides the low pay they had to tighten up on warranty claims to stay in business and I would probly have to deny claims that should be paid. What's interesting is that after changing ownership a couple times, that still appears to be the same.
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That sure don't give me a warm fuzzy feeling about Moto Guzzi/Piaggio, it seems to me that they should have at least offered to replace the parts.
I'm afraid that their lawyers probably decided that replacing the parts free could be viewed as an admission that the problem was their fault, and they don't want to end up in court, defending themselves in an injury suit with that admission already made.
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I'm afraid that their lawyers probably decided that replacing the parts free could be viewed as an admission that the problem was their fault, and they don't want to end up in court, defending themselves in an injury suit with that admission already made.
I am sure you are correct, but if there are more failures they are going to end up in court anyway.
Bob
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I am sure you are correct, but if there are more failures they are going to end up in court anyway.
Yes, you're right, and they know that, but they won't have already made the admission of guilt when they get there. The attitude sucks, and I've come across it a few times before, when a highly rated company I'd have expected to replace a failed part just for its customer service reputation refuses and gives a lot of excuses as to what caused the failure, none of which is their fault.
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Yes, you're right, and they know that, but they won't have already made the admission of guilt when they get there. The attitude sucks, and I've come across it a few times before, when a highly rated company I'd have expected to replace a failed part just for its customer service reputation refuses and gives a lot of excuses as to what caused the failure, none of which is their fault.
The John Belushi defense ? :laugh:
Dusty
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Yes, you're right, and they know that, but they won't have already made the admission of guilt when they get there. The attitude sucks, and I've come across it a few times before, when a highly rated company I'd have expected to replace a failed part just for its customer service reputation refuses and gives a lot of excuses as to what caused the failure, none of which is their fault.
Let one fail here in the U.S and lawyers will be standing in line to take the case.
The more I read about Moto Guzzi customer service the better My H.D is looking to me. ;-)
Bob
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Thanks.
No, it's money I can put towards a new bike. At least I have an interesting story to tell.
So you get a new/used swingarm, put it in and sell the bike?
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Never underestimate the ability of lower echelon minions to slow information processing to a crawl.
Do jets not fly from Oz to Italy in a day or is everything done by rowboat? You would think, given the nature of the failure that the swingarm would be packed up and FedExed to Italy the day after the bike was at the dealer and by now there would be some resolution even if only for the individual bike.
That the entire bike wasn't crated and sent to Italy immediately is astounding. What factory would not want to see first hand the bike as it sat to inspect for other damage, clues that indicate how the bike was used and so on?
It isn't like some bungee cord broke loose and the eggs fell off the back seat.
On the other hand, with that kind of failure, the bike wouldn't see a dealer until a factory rep came out and everything got documented at some expert shop so everyone sees everything at the same time and since I own the bike, a documented chain of evidence implemented in case MG decided to blame something else. Once they have it, would you really trust they do more than look out for their own interests?
BTW, that would apply regardless of model, brand or country of origin.
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So how about if I send you a swing arm and torque rod gratis? Why? Simply because I can and if you onsell the bike you do it with full disclosure?
I have a real issue with Piaggio at the moment but I love the bikes, just hate the 'Meh! Your problem' attitude.
Pete
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So how about if I send you a swing arm and torque rod gratis? Why? Simply because I can and if you onsell the bike you do it with full disclosure?
<snip>
Pete
You're not serious, are you?
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You're not serious, are you?
Too right he is.
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Why would I say it if I wasn't serious?
Pete
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Fair enough :bow:
It's just unexpected and too good to be true, very gracious! I'll PM you, thanks a lot!
I hope somebody from Piaggio reads this and realises how it is supposed to be done.
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Well you'd better PM me an address and any special instructions for sending weird shit to South Africa because it would be a pain in the arse if it got impounded or destroyed because we didn't tick all the boxes! :grin:
Pete
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Why would I say it if I wasn't serious?
Pete
Pete, That is really a good thing you are doing. :1:
Bob
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Pete, That is really a good thing you are doing. :1:
Bob
:1:
Santa Pete...
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No, and that sort of bullshit can stop right now.
Think about it.
I recently bought a wrecked Griso to re-motor mine.
That leaves me with a bunch of shit. Does this shit have *Value*? That is for the market to judge but at the end of the day I don't think CARC bike swing arms are likely to be a 'Fast Moving' item.
Therefore I have a fairly bulky piece of shit clogging up my workshop that I am highly unlikely to ever need.
If I put it on the Bay of Fleas what is it going to get me? $20? $50? And then all the hassle and general fuquetardery associated with said Bay of Fleas.
Here we have some idiot in South Africa who has been hung out to dry. That sucks.
Join the dots.
It's not like I'm giving him my superannuation plan with a bleeding cherry on top! It costs both of us little and, as always, if it works out well all I'd ask is a donation to some organisation, (Prefferably not religious.) of a charitable nature.
Pete
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Amazing :thumb:
Dusty
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No, and that sort of bullshit can stop right now.
Think about it.
I recently bought a wrecked Griso to re-motor mine.
That leaves me with a bunch of shit. Does this shit have *Value*? That is for the market to judge but at the end of the day I don't think CARC bike swing arms are likely to be a 'Fast Moving' item.
Therefore I have a fairly bulky piece of shit clogging up my workshop that I am highly unlikely to ever need.
If I put it on the Bay of Fleas what is it going to get me? $20? $50? And then all the hassle and general fuquetardery associated with said Bay of Fleas.
Here we have some idiot in South Africa who has been hung out to dry. That sucks.
Join the dots.
It's not like I'm giving him my superannuation plan with a bleeding cherry on top! It costs both of us little and, as always, if it works out well all I'd ask is a donation to some organisation, (Prefferably not religious.) of a charitable nature.
Pete
Just pick up Pete's tab here.
(https://storage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/small/48870265.jpg)
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This is the kind of stuff that separates the Guzzi community from the rest. Reason alone to stay with the marque.
Just awesome.
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Pete Roper.........what a guy....but we already knew that. :thumb: He just keeps on giving............. .
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:1: :thumb:
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Just pick up Pete's tab here.
(https://storage.googleapis.com/static.panoramio.com/photos/small/48870265.jpg)
Well, maybe for one night..
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Actually we had a great night there last night! One of the Ghetto crew came up to get his bike rollerised, (Yes, his tappets were 'Donald Ducked'.) and after doing that and finding it made a good, rather than a bad, noise we adjourned to the Royal where we consumed far too much beer and Chinese scoff!
This morning's task is to fix the leaky rocker cover gasket on the RH head and the go for a 'Test Thrash' around test track 'B' before I pour him back into his land cruiser and Bugger him and his long suffering missus back off to Lorne!
It's really nice when the *Fix* for a problem actually works! :grin:
Pete
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Fair enough :bow:
It's just unexpected and too good to be true, very gracious! I'll PM you, thanks a lot!
I hope somebody from Piaggio reads this and realises how it is supposed to be done.
I have been a recipient of Pete's largesse at a stressful and financially challenged time. My darling could not believe it at the time, neither could I. Truly a man amongst men. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
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I have been a recipient of Pete's largesse at a stressful and financially challenged time. My darling could not believe it at the time, neither could I. Truly a man amongst men. :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Ditto, and agreed!!
Shaun
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Pete's just being the good bloke he is (if that's what they say in Oz).
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It's really nice when the *Fix* for a problem actually works!
I like the Peter, as I have heaps that don't.
Harry
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Careful Pete,
That crusty exterior you've worked so hard to perfect is starting to slip.
But any excuse to clean up the garage is a worthy goal.
Good one.
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Hey, Pete.. any idea how long it takes a package to get from Austria to the states? The Kid's Spot is eating up space in the shop that could better be used for an airplane.. :smiley:
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Hey, Pete.. any idea how long it takes a package to get from Austria to the states? The Kid's Spot is eating up space in the shop that could better be used for an airplane.. :smiley:
Austria ? WOOF ?
Dusty
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Everybody knows that Petey lives in Austria, Dusty..
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Usually ten days to a fortnight but Indiana might be a bit *Special* :evil:
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Everybody knows that Petey lives in Austria, Dusty..
Told this before . When Pete and Jude were on their way to Muskogee , I contacted our local paper about doing a human interest story on the Australian visitors . The young lady at the paper asked if they were famous in Europe . After a moment of silence I asked the rhetorical question , followed by another awkward silence . Never mind . Of course our local internet news site , owned by a self proclaimed "life long motorcycle enthusiast " , had never heard of Moto Guzzi :rolleyes: Guess our definition of enthusiast is different :shocked:
Dusty
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Ain't Austria over by Dallas?
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Usually ten days to a fortnight but Indiana might be a bit *Special* :evil:
I thought Chuck lived in India.
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Well that's over there by Dallas too.
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Well that's over there by Dallas too.
Closer to Nacogdoches :huh:
Dusty
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This thread has been an eye opener for me as a long time Guzzi rider and brand loyalist. I have been pretty put off by the handling on the part of Piaggio in dealing with the valve train issues on my 12' NTX and the closing of another long time top drawer dealer MPH. Not to mention the clutch and swing arm events. With all of this having taken up the last several months it was easy to loose sight of just how much I have enjoyed all of the Guzzis I have owned. And that indeed includes my present 8V. But more importantly just how much I have enjoyed the people who surround these bikes. If it were not for Pete and all of the other folks that have hung in there and kept the information and suggestions coming it would have been much harder to fix the problems and keep my 8V on the road. In the end frustration with Piaggio, who after all are just the latest in a long line of owners of Guzzi, shouldn't change the fact that owning and riding these bikes is still more than worth it. The 8V is a gas to ride with a sound a feeling like no other. Guess I am still hooked. :grin:
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Well said.
My Stelvio gives me a rush like no other.
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Just to update this in case people thought it was bullshit. Swingarm and torque rod got on the 'Big White Bird' this AM, Should be in the steaming fleshpots of Kyalami in seven to ten days.
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/681/23328981140_26185ccab4_b.jpg)
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Well done, VDG.
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Yep, very well done
But
I know you have enough on your plate working out cam & big end problems, Pete
How about someone with the technical ability / equipment get the broken arm and analyse for the WHY
Loads of expert opinions on here from pictures, I'm sure conclusive could be ascertained from real thing, odd that neither importer wanted to do this or send it home to Italy.
Pete's got the bike working again, anyone here who can do the analysis ?
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If the owner sends me the broken shit I can take it to the Australian Mint and ask their opinion.
I still believe it must of been a batch of bad castings, similar sort of problem to the shock linkage issue. Thing is there are tens of thousands of these things out there and then there was a few failures from the same manufacturing period after which it was all good again. Design flaw doesn't add up. Manufacturing flaw does. It doesn't make any difference, Piaggio is still denying responsibility. I have my arse covered, I wrote to our importer expressing my concerns. No reply was forthcoming unfortunately...... ...
Pete
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Just to update this in case people thought it was bullshit. Swingarm and torque rod got on the 'Big White Bird' this AM, Should be in the steaming fleshpots of Kyalami in seven to ten days.
:bow: :bow: :bow:
Thanks!
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There is no need for this bowing shit! What else was I going to do with it? Skip it in ten years time! Fer fucks sakes!
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From a purely safety standpoint, is there something Stelvio owners should look for in a specific area or is this just something not to worry about because if it happens, it develops so quickly that cusory inspection is worthless?
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Very hard to say but given the nature of cast aluminium my guess would be that once started failure would be very rapid, maybe within only a handful of stress cycles but I don't know for certain.
Obviously it would pay to check regularly, especially if you own a machine manufactured mid 2012 but whether there would be anything to see is a different matter.
Pete
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Hi people,
I'm new around here - trying to learn before joining the Family so to speak.
Forgive me if this suggestion is dumb but why not be proactive and just Tig
the threaded hole if that's the weak spot and Araldite a clip into place to hold
the Brake Line?
Cheers Maurie.
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Hi people,
I'm new around here - trying to learn before joining the Family so to speak.
Forgive me if this suggestion is dumb but why not be proactive and just Tig
the threaded hole if that's the weak spot and Araldite a clip into place to hold
the Brake Line?
Cheers Maurie.
Well you could, but getting a competent welder that knows what material to use and is ok to weld cast might be the issue. Just adding another variable.
I'd still go with the open the hole to the thread root dia, dye pen test, cold work and use a rubber well nut.
Ciao
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I wonder if there is anyway to look at the casting to figure out what batch it came from. See if an owner can inspect their arm for a smoking gun.
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My riding Bud and I are removing my CARC tomorrow to service the swing arm bearings and will do a visual inspection of the CARC while it is off. We did his Stelvio a few weeks ago and the CARC looked fine, the bearing were in need of grease, it seems a lot of these bikes leave the factory with minimal grease in the bearings.
Bob
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I am planning on buying another bike next year. Because I am 'Goose', I Guzzi's will get a hard long look first. But what ever bike I buy, I will buy the software and hardware to maintain these newer bikes. And if I get the house I am looking at, I'll even have my own large 2 bay garage! So I can also then buy my Ambo/Eldo...
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Well you could, but getting a competent welder that knows what material to use and is ok to weld cast might be the issue. Just adding another variable.
I'd still go with the open the hole to the thread root dia, dye pen test, cold work and use a rubber well nut.
Ciao
Point ……… what about filling with quick metal and
reinforcing in and out with carbon fibre?
Maurie.
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Point ��� what about filling with quick metal and
reinforcing in and out with carbon fibre?
Maurie.
I'm with Phil. I feel the thread is the stress riser. Maybe. :smiley: At any rate, doing that wouldn't get rid of the thread.
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it seems a lot of these bikes leave the factory with minimal grease in the bearings.
My theory is that some bonehead at a bearing manufacturer specs a very tiny layer of grease for bearings, assuming they are well sealed, and assuming they are used at higher speeds. Any more grease would just get hot and leak out.
But they don't realize that in this application, the swingarm pivot bearings only have a slight amount of motion, and the seals are lacking. So they really need a heavy dose of grease to protect them from rust.
But that connection is never made, and the bearing manufacturer doesn't even see the issue. Well, he does see additional bearings sold to repair the rusted out, under greased, bearings. :rolleyes:
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My theory is that some bonehead at a bearing manufacturer specs a very tiny layer of grease for bearings, assuming they are well sealed, and assuming they are used at higher speeds. Any more grease would just get hot and leak out.
But they don't realize that in this application, the swingarm pivot bearings only have a slight amount of motion, and the seals are lacking. So they really need a heavy dose of grease to protect them from rust.
But that connection is never made, and the bearing manufacturer doesn't even see the issue. Well, he does see additional bearings sold to repair the rusted out, under greased, bearings. :rolleyes:
I bet the steering head bearings need more grease too.
Bob
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My theory is that some bonehead at a bearing manufacturer specs a very tiny layer of grease for bearings, assuming they are well sealed, and assuming they are used at higher speeds. Any more grease would just get hot and leak out.
But they don't realize that in this application, the swingarm pivot bearings only have a slight amount of motion, and the seals are lacking. So they really need a heavy dose of grease to protect them from rust.
But that connection is never made, and the bearing manufacturer doesn't even see the issue. Well, he does see additional bearings sold to repair the rusted out, under greased, bearings. :rolleyes:
If true, the bonehead would be the moron at Moto Guzzi, not the bearing maker. Moto Guzzi is supposed to spec the right bearing and know the application. That is what application engineers are for. The bearing maker isn't making the motorcycle nor the swingarm.
Blame where blame is due, the company making the motorcycle. If the suppliers have problems, that too is on MG. They are supposed to do QA and the buck stops with them.
Bearing maker probably sells a lot of bearings and selling a few more to MG because the application spec is crappy doesn't mean much to them, a few more bearings to MG doesn't mean anything to them.
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Kinda glad I got a Norge.
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Kinda glad I got a Norge.
Right, since it doesn't have the CARC crap.
:huh:
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I bet the steering head bearings need more grease too.
Bob
The Headstock Bearings are better protected from the Elements (at least they are on the Stelvio), and they don't do quite so much 'work' either, rotation-wise, so the Grease issue isn't so critical.
Always best to check/clean/re-lube as required though. :thumb:
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I greased the swing arm and shock pivot bearings on my 2013 Stelvio today, all the bearings were in need of grease. My riding Bud...Jay came over to help it, it took about two hours to do the service. It seems these bikes leave the factory with very little grease in these bearings and I bet other bearing on the bike need attention too. FYI.... I bought the bike new this year it has under 12,000 miles in it.
I inspected the CARC and didn't see any hair line fractures.
Bob
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You won't see the fracture (if there is one), it's like trying to spot a crack in a weld. One way to see a potential crack would be to dye-pen the area close to the threaded hole, and you'll have to do it on the inside to be safe since the paint will most likely cover up the crack.
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The Headstock Bearings are better protected from the Elements (at least they are on the Stelvio), and they don't do quite so much 'work' either, rotation-wise, so the Grease issue isn't so critical.
Always best to check/clean/re-lube as required though. :thumb:
In my current career as a millwright, I have found that bearings that don't spin (in other words bearings that operate through less than 360 degree rotation) fail early. I have my own theories as to why this is, but I see it often. Yes, this is an oversimplification, but this is my empirical observation. I grease these more often than bearings that rotate. Swingarm bearings and headstock bearings kind of match that description for me.
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In my current career as a millwright, I have found that bearings that don't spin (in other words bearings that operate through less than 360 degree rotation) fail early. I have my own theories as to why this is, but I see it often.
You're certainly correct. Bicycle and motorcycle head bearings not only don't rotate a full 360 degrees, but they spend most of their time at or near the center of travel. The races get dents worn in them and things go downhill from there. Any repetitive non-fully-rotating application is likely to cause non-uniform race wear. At least Guzzi swing arms use roller bearings, which aren't quite as bad as ball bearings in this kind of application.
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In my current career as a millwright, I have found that bearings that don't spin (in other words bearings that operate through less than 360 degree rotation) fail early.
I found that with my R1150R Paralever Bearings, replaced the $60ea. OEM's with Nylatron Bushings care of an ADV. inmate - I'm one of the riders testing them.
The TRB's were badly Brinelled, they have little movement and end up wearing grooves across the race that the rollers just sit in.
Cheers Maurie.
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I found that with my R1150R Paralever Bearings, replaced the $60ea. OEM's with Nylatron Bushings care of an ADV. inmate - I'm one of the riders testing them.
The TRB's were badly Brinelled, they have little movement and end up wearing grooves across the race that the rollers just sit in.
Cheers Maurie.
I was going to ask, would not synthetic plain bearing types work better for those applications?
Seems someone thinks so, test results will be interesting. The nylatron is in the class is self lubing plastics yes? Self cleaning too if I remember correctly and this is the same material I was thinking if. Even when gritty they continue to function well.
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F*ck this shit! Has the new swingarm arrived yet?
Should be there before Christmas!
Pete
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F*ck this shit! Has the new swingarm arrived yet?
Should be there before Christmas!
Pete
It has, on Tuesday. Sent you a PM about it (?), will reply via email to.
Thanks.
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Nah, that's OK. Must of been a cock-up with the PM. As long as it's there? All good! Keep us posted.
:thumb:
Pete
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I've got a dodgy internet connection at work, plus they're busy upgrading us to fibre so the connection is up and down the past week.
Waiting for a quote from the local dealer to fix the bike, then have to decide if I'm going to sell or keep her. Lately I've been leaning towards keeping her.
Do you have an idea how many Stelvio's (specifically) have been sold since circa 2012, can one perhaps estimate looking at the last/latest VIN numbers of ones sold?
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I was going to ask, would not synthetic plain bearing types work better for those applications?
Seems someone thinks so, test results will be interesting. The nylatron is in the class is self lubing plastics yes? Self cleaning too if I remember correctly and this is the same material I was thinking if. Even when gritty they continue to function well.
It's a Molybdenum infused type of Nylon so yes self lubing. ADVrider decided to try it as it's used for
Suspension Bushes in NASCAR. There are around 20 or so of us testing them - so far boringly simple
and totally reliable with no reported problems and I guess maybe 15,000 miles on the longest travelled
tester so far.
We did have one guy "take one for the team" have an accident and actually deform (but not break or crack) them - but his back wheel/FD got run over by a 5 ton truck towing a trailer with a medium sized
Bobcat on board and dragged 15/20 yds down the road.
Maurie.
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Molybdenum disulfide maybe?
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In a former job in an engineering firm I worked for we used to sell something similar called Niloil, a lube impregnated plastic. it was as they say, "good shit". It could be used in under water applications. If my dodgy memory serves me correctly (I think) that rules out moly. One type of lube, which I think was moly, could not be used in salt water applications.
From this thread I think that when the next tire change happens I will whip the covers off the swing arm bearings and throw some grease in there. I know they are a boggy type bearing, 6205's from memory. Dirt common and cheap as chips.
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Might be worth noting that I'm talking about the
Paralever TRB's, swing arm to FD, not the swing arm
to gearbox TRB's - they move enough not to wear so
quickly. The front are a normal bearing size and a normal
price, the Paralever TRB's are BMW specific special one off
size priced three times as much, prompting experimentation
among the unwashed.
Maurie.
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In my current career as a millwright, I have found that bearings that don't spin (in other words bearings that operate through less than 360 degree rotation) fail early. I have my own theories as to why this is, but I see it often. Yes, this is an oversimplification, but this is my empirical observation. I grease these more often than bearings that rotate. Swingarm bearings and headstock bearings kind of match that description for me.
Also, Google 'Brinelling'.
http://www.linearmotiontips.com/how-bearings-fail-a-closer-look-at-brinelling/ (http://www.linearmotiontips.com/how-bearings-fail-a-closer-look-at-brinelling/)
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Also, Google 'Brinelling'.
http://www.linearmotiontips.com/how-bearings-fail-a-closer-look-at-brinelling/ (http://www.linearmotiontips.com/how-bearings-fail-a-closer-look-at-brinelling/)
Good stuff, but not the specific failure I am thinking of...in this case it's just accelerated wear and failure. The load shouldn't be excessive, but who knows, maybe there is more impact force than the manufacturer realizes.
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Quick update; my NTX is being fixed. In the end Piaggio gave me the parts (except the ones I got from Vasco DG) at discounted prices and the local dealer also came to the party by reducing labour rates, happy about that.
Decided I'm going to keep the bike, I reckon my chances of it happening again is pretty slim. I'll post pics when I ride the bike down from Jo'burg to Cape Town.
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Another one in Australia:
A bit too of a let down rideing along got forced of the road by a kangaroo down here in Australia that I can deal with had to jump over a small drain no big deal only went maybe a foot in the air cleared the drain landed nice and smooth then bag rear swing arm breaks away couldn't believe it bike was unloaded I was doing maybe 80 klms before slowing down while forced off the road this is my second stelvio had my last one through the desert did heaps of off road with it no problems this new one didn't handle it must say am disappointed in what's happened now waiting on insurance to see if I will be fixed or a write off not happy
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28279673_1601421503267142_3264801013194282064_n.jpg?oh=35d6992f028a70f9aebf86604116a6ef&oe=5B0DAE6F)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28472210_1601421539933805_6032178036448131630_n.jpg?oh=e4c19b401a7a3423888777dcd0675f1b&oe=5B4D2F67)
(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28576085_1601421603267132_5619761325925122743_n.jpg?oh=87206710fee585f0b4295db7ad3f1e15&oe=5B44DE67)
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Wonder what year it was? 2012 seems to be the problem year.
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Wonder what year it was? 2012 seems to be the problem year.
Not sure about Australia, but that color was only available in the US market in more recent years - 2015 to 2017 I believe.
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Not sure about Australia, but that color was only available in the US market in more recent years - 2015 to 2017 I believe.
2014 as well
Although it's possible that's a 2012 bike with a 2014 tank on it. There is at least one bike like that in Australia.
The triangular panels with the NTX logo might be grey (like the black 2012 bike), not black (like the green 2014 bike).