Author Topic: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil  (Read 72563 times)

Offline Jaxthedog

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What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« on: January 05, 2012, 06:26:34 PM »
I'm relatively new to the forum but have a question that's nagged at me since I bought the B-1100 in June - knowing that this topic has probably been discussed before.  Specs call for 10W60 racing oil.  I try to keep a spare quart or two of what ever is called for in whatever I'm riding in the garage, but the 10W60 is difficult to find.

My nearest Guzzi dealer (only 50 miles away) has an off-brand which I purchased, but I am due for a 12,600 service and wondering if there might be an acceptable alternative/

So not knowing the finer art of engineering that goes into modern motor oil, I'll innocently ask: What does one give up by changing to a more available 10W50 synthetic?  Are the differences between these two types of products critical enough to the bike's performance and engine longevity to warrant the harder-to-find stuff?  If not, what do most people use in place of the specified lubricant?

Thanks for revisiting this on my behalf.  :)



Jaxthedog

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Offline Scott of the Sahara

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2012, 06:32:49 PM »
I am not sure with the 2 valve engines but I know the 4 valve seems to need the right oil. I buy a gallon of the stuff in advance and then store it until I am ready to change the oil. That way I always have what I need.

Offline Jaxthedog

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2012, 06:33:58 PM »
Wait, wait, wait:  My mistake...  The specs for the B-1200 Sport calls for 10W60.

My B-1100 (I just revisited the manual on line) calls for 4T 5W40.  So the circumstance is a bit different, but the question still stands.

Thanks. ;D
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 06:37:25 PM by Jaxthedog »
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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 06:34:15 PM »
Can't really answer your question nor probably can anyone else but if you locate your nearest retail oil distributor you should be able to buy Redline 10-60 for about 8.00 per quart as I do here versus the $10+ auto parts store charge.. You can also ride into Roseville BMW and or any BMW dealer in pick up 10-60 by the quart....

Hope that helps...

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2012, 06:34:15 PM »

Offline Sack

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2012, 06:37:46 PM »
I am not sure with the 2 valve engines but I know the 4 valve seems to need the right oil. I buy a gallon of the stuff in advance and then store it until I am ready to change the oil. That way I always have what I need.

I do the same but I have kept an oil change on hand to cover me. Dealer used 20w-50 at service so I think you'd be fine in mild temps. But I decided to stick with 10w-60 and that's what I do. I buy from Racer Parts Wholesale and use Redline.  http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/11024/Motor_Oils
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 06:39:56 PM by Sack »
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kitze2

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2012, 06:46:00 PM »
A&S in Sacramento carries 10/60.
Elk grove carries Motul 10/60 which is what I use.
Also I've bought from these guys. IIRC they charge a flat rate shipping of 7 or 8 bucks.
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/11024/Motor_Oils
Also any BMW auto shop carries it.
Or lastly...Any NAPA can order it for ya.


Edit...
Hey I see that Kirk and the Gorn buy from racerparts also.
Quick...who played the Gorn?
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 06:47:43 PM by kitze2 »

Offline Sack

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2012, 07:05:01 PM »
A&S in Sacramento carries 10/60.
Elk grove carries Motul 10/60 which is what I use.
Also I've bought from these guys. IIRC they charge a flat rate shipping of 7 or 8 bucks.
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/11024/Motor_Oils
Also any BMW auto shop carries it.
Or lastly...Any NAPA can order it for ya.


Edit...
Hey I see that Kirk and the Gorn buy from racerparts also.
Quick...who played the Gorn?

I know now, but I had to look it up! Curious that the Gorn shops at Racer Parts too!   ;-T

I've found they ship fast too.
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Offline Kev m

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2012, 07:09:59 PM »
Ignore the online manual as the recommendations were superceded/revised by a technical service bulletin that calls for 10w-60 for all CARC big blocks.

Search the forum and you'll find it's been debated many times and the bulletin has been posted too.

Summary - Some claim other oils are fine and a few have seen oil lights come on with other viscosities.

Personally I'm glad I make enough money to spend $100 on a case of the proper spec oil and not worry about it.
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Offline Jaxthedog

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2012, 07:51:41 PM »
Thanks, everybody. 

Had checked many local auto parts stores and didn't find any.  Didn't check A&S, though I go there as necessary for my Beemer.  In any event, I'll be finding and loading up a case of 10W60.

And, Kev, thanks for the heads up re: the on-line manual.

- Dave
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Offline Zoom Zoom

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2012, 08:07:40 PM »
MG Cycle carries the Motorex 10W-60 that you seek. I don't know for sure, but Harpers may carry 10/60 as well, not to mention other dealers such as MPH and Moto International. I have also heard some auto parts stores can order it for you. It is a bit of a pain, but much easier to get than a couple of years ago.

Ajip, the OEM oil: 12 Liters, $122.86:
http://www.americanagip.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_6&products_id=6

Zoom Zoom,
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Offline kirb

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2012, 08:08:40 PM »
I bought a case of Agip 10-60 from these guys:
http://www.motocarr.com/

Shipped to my door it was still cheaper than 20-50 Mobil 1 from AutoZone.

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2012, 08:36:05 PM »
A local guy keeps the synthetic Agip 10-60 on the shelf, thats nice.  Just bought a new KTM, it recommends full synthetic 10-60 for racing/heavy duty use, 10-50 for medium use.  Of course they recommend Motorex, which is around $18/qt, but there's also Motorex 10-60 with a little orange KTM portion on the sticker that sells for over $20/qt.  I find it hard to believe there's anything different in the bottle and you're just paying for marketing.

Offline jdgretz

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2012, 09:00:31 PM »
I bought a case of Agip 10-60 from these guys:
http://www.motocarr.com/

Shipped to my door it was still cheaper than 20-50 Mobil 1 from AutoZone.

Wow - good price until they add on (for me) $38.00 shipping.  That puts them over the price from RacerPartsWholesale who have free shipping on sales of over $100.

Guess I'll stay with Red Line until Agip goes on sale.

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Offline jdelv

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2012, 09:01:34 PM »
I just bought a Griso in Dec and did an oil change before storing it.  I used 5-40 and a fram oil filter.  I didn't get the memo on what garbage the Frams are until after.  I called the local Guzzi dealer, and this is what he said:

Don't worry about the 5-40 until temps get into the 70 degree temps.  For me in Western NY state, that's sometime in May.  I planned on changing the oil/filter in spring anyways. 

I then badgered him about the 10/60 oil bulletin.  He said that their shop recommends Mobil 1 10-40 synthetic, given our climate and ease of availability.  My understanding is that the 10/60 is ideal for extreme heat conditions, where we only get a handful of 90 degree days per year here.

I was going to follow his recommendation until I saw how cheaply you can buy good 10-60 stuff by the case.  I'm guessing you get 3 oil changes per case for about $120, dropping the cost significantly.  I'll be using an UFI filter and Red Line or AGIP when the riding starts up again. 

How long do you guys go between changes?  Does this oil keep viscosity over a long service life?  Or do you still change oil every 2000 miles?
Jon DelVecchio
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Offline Kev m

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2012, 09:21:44 PM »
2000 miles JEZUS KEYRIST I never went that short with Dino juice.

6k miles or a year with a quality synthetic.

I go 10K on most cars these days,  15-18k on our old Mini with the oil life monitor.
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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2012, 09:25:16 PM »
How long do you guys go between changes?  Does this oil keep viscosity over a long service life?  Or do you still change oil every 2000 miles?

Or, to add to this question...  With the high cost of this oil, is anyone getting their oil analysed? And if OK, just changing the filter?

Offline jones525

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2012, 09:30:45 PM »
When I bought my MV I looked high and low for Agip 10/60. Ultimately I just use Mobil1 15/50 full synthetic in both my Duc and my MV. The 15/50 does not mess with the wet slipper clutch in the MV and the Duc has a dry clutch so thats not a concern. I've attached the oil reports for review. I think it's going to be a Grizo SE for me in the spring. ;) Not sure what the oil requirements are for the Grizo but it wold be nice if I could run 15/50 across the board.   





Offline kballowe

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2012, 09:33:35 PM »
I'd be interested to see an oil analysis on the 10W-60 stuff.  To get there - they typically start with a 10 weight oil and add viscosity improvers.  These oils with a wide viscosity range almost always shear faster.  Some of the PAO based oils fare a bit better.

But there is a place to get real world oil analysis results:

www.bobistheoilguy. com

There are sections for automotive, diesel, motorcycles, small engines, etc.

Probably won't find any Moto Guzzi reports there but there are many BMW and Harley (air-cooled) used oil analysis, in addition to many other metric cruisers.  These can give an indication of how well a particular oil stays in grade, etc.

Not saying that the 10W-60 oil isn't the best thing since sliced bread.  Only offering information.



Offline WHY

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2012, 10:14:23 PM »
I got 10w60 at my local BMW dealership (car dealership, not bike), they carry Castrol TWS which Castrol specially design for BMW M cars, price is the appox same as Agip 10w60. my Guzzi dealership is 100 km away. got 3 BMW dealership within 30 km
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Offline Kev m

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2012, 10:40:36 PM »
As reported by our favorite Australian Guzzi dealer tech / expert,  the 8V motors (like the Griso SE) utilize dedicated oil passages to lubricate and cool the exhaust valve stem.  It's idiotic to risk an oil that doesn't meet OEM specs on them.

Again, I spend more money one night out for sushi or Tapas than I do on THREE OIL CHANGES!

Get over the cheap or lazy guys!

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Offline Sasquatch Jim

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2012, 10:52:28 PM »
 I give up.  Who did play the Gorn?
Sasquatch Jim        Humanoid, sort of.

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2012, 11:09:19 PM »
When I bought my MV I looked high and low for Agip 10/60.

http://www.americanagip.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_6&products_id=6

No Sweat, right to the door. EXACTLY what my expensive steel and alloy flying bits need per the manufacturer.

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Offline old head

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2012, 11:12:08 PM »
as stated, this subject has been discussed many times before.

10-60 racing is recommended on all CARC bikes.  It is especially needed on the 8v engines as they mostly cooled by oil, and are more highly stressed engines.  I did read the tech bulletin and it clearly states 10w60 for all CARC bikes except California bike, why I don't know.  Cali is 20w50 as an alternative, go figure.  I think it was on the this old tractor web page, I think.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/mg_manuals/moto_guzzi_technical_note_010-2006.pdf

Before I saw the updated tech bulletin, I used 10-40 Rotella syn., and got a the dreaded oil can light once in hot, stop and go traffic.  I immediately changed to 15-50 mobil 1 oil, and have never had another issue.  Since the updated tech bulletin, I have been contemplating going to 10-60 as it gets pretty hot around here during the summer.  I imagine I will make the change, even though I have never had an issue with 15-50, all it takes is one time for there to be a problem.

I am over 35k miles, and I don't have to add any oil between changes, every 5k oil and filter.

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Offline Oca

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2012, 11:16:43 PM »


Personally I'm glad I make enough money to spend $100 on a case of the proper spec oil and not worry about it.

 :+1
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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2012, 12:04:27 AM »
People can be funny creatures. If you can convince them that they will surely be struck by lightning if they don't do "X" or purchace "Y", they will not only line your pocket by buying the product, but do their best to brainwash their friends into doing the same.  Is this a killer business plan, or what?

In the computer world, it's taken as gospel that unless you protect your computer with the very latest virus protection programs, your hard drive will be reduces to smoking slag in a matter of seconds.  Some claims go even farther.  One highly advertised product claims that their program "finds and fixes the problems with your PC".  I remember reading a product evaluation for this product on one of the Geek sites where the geek purchased the product and loaded it into his well-used PC>  The product identified and corrected 426 different problems in a matter of minutes.  He then loaded the same product into a  brand new computer with a never used hard drive.  Result?  In a matter of minutes, it found and corrected 426 different problems.  What I'm trying to say here is that some manufactorers prey on the consuming public.  I have an old PC that I have ran for years without any sort of protection of any kind... and it's still working.  Hasn't burned the house down or anything.

As to oil- a good example can be made regarding the Russian motorcycle I own.  According to the manual, it requires premium gas with a minimum of 91 octane.  This in an engine with 7.5-1 compression and producing a whopping 40-45 horsepower.  Why is this?  Well- when the importer was jumping through the hoops placed in front of it by the EPA, they had to do everything they could to get the primative design to pass emissions, and they chose premimum fuel because it gave them the advantage of running a leaner mixture without pinging.  Since the emissions were certified using premimum fuel, premimum was what they had to specify.  The oil they mandate is SAE 20w-50.  That's what they used to pass emissions.  That's what the manual calls for.  Of course, if you watch the "how to do minor maintenance" video they offer, it sure looked like Cheveron SAE 30 they were pouring in.  Lightly loaded, all roller bearing engine with a 1700 mile service cycle?  That's all that's needed.

There are certain applications which do require better lubrication- applications where the exhaust valve is cooled by oil, for example.  There, MG specs a 10w-60 oil.  They probably also like the idea of having a little greater protection as insurance against warranty claims.  The funny thing is- the viscosity has absolutely nothing to do with how an oil will react to heat.  Folks who've spent some time around air cooled VW's can attest to this.  You could always tell when someone was using Penzoil because the parafin-based oil broke down into greenish crud when faced with the oil temps generated by the air cooled VW.  In a water cooled Buick V8 it was never an issue. 

As I see it, unless the application actually demands some super-lubricant, it's probably a waste of money to slavishly use it.  Just like it's a waste of money to put premimum gas in my old Ural.  Been running regular for six years and never had an issue.

PeteT. 

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #25 on: January 06, 2012, 03:04:38 AM »
(Sigh.)

Run whatever you want. Just don't whine if something goes 'Udders Skywards' if you haven't used something that meets the manufacturers specifications.

As an aside I have been servicing from new a lot of CARC bikes and probably more 8V's than most shops in my market. I use a top of the range oil and have NEVER had a failure that might even be related to oil performance. Even on my own bike which by all accounts SHOULD of failed due to the soft tappet fiasco.

In Oz an 8 Valver is a $20,000 + motorbike. If customers want to put something inferior in their bike? That's fine. I won't do it for them though and they'll get no sympathy if they start crying 'Warranty' if they have.

VDG

Offline HDGoose

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2012, 06:11:14 AM »
People can be funny creatures. If you can convince them that they will surely be struck by lightning if they don't do "X" or purchace "Y", they will not only line your pocket by buying the product, but do their best to brainwash their friends into doing the same.  Is this a killer business plan, or what?

In the computer world, it's taken as gospel that unless you protect your computer with the very latest virus protection programs, your hard drive will be reduces to smoking slag in a matter of seconds.  Some claims go even farther.  One highly advertised product claims that their program "finds and fixes the problems with your PC".  I remember reading a product evaluation for this product on one of the Geek sites where the geek purchased the product and loaded it into his well-used PC>  The product identified and corrected 426 different problems in a matter of minutes.  He then loaded the same product into a  brand new computer with a never used hard drive.  Result?  In a matter of minutes, it found and corrected 426 different problems.  What I'm trying to say here is that some manufactorers prey on the consuming public.  I have an old PC that I have ran for years without any sort of protection of any kind... and it's still working.  Hasn't burned the house down or anything.


As to oil- a good example can be made regarding the Russian motorcycle I own.  According to the manual, it requires premium gas with a minimum of 91 octane.  This in an engine with 7.5-1 compression and producing a whopping 40-45 horsepower.  Why is this?  Well- when the importer was jumping through the hoops placed in front of it by the EPA, they had to do everything they could to get the primative design to pass emissions, and they chose premimum fuel because it gave them the advantage of running a leaner mixture without pinging.  Since the emissions were certified using premimum fuel, premimum was what they had to specify.  The oil they mandate is SAE 20w-50.  That's what they used to pass emissions.  That's what the manual calls for.  Of course, if you watch the "how to do minor maintenance" video they offer, it sure looked like Cheveron SAE 30 they were pouring in.  Lightly loaded, all roller bearing engine with a 1700 mile service cycle?  That's all that's needed.

There are certain applications which do require better lubrication- applications where the exhaust valve is cooled by oil, for example.  There, MG specs a 10w-60 oil.  They probably also like the idea of having a little greater protection as insurance against warranty claims.  The funny thing is- the viscosity has absolutely nothing to do with how an oil will react to heat.  Folks who've spent some time around air cooled VW's can attest to this.  You could always tell when someone was using Penzoil because the parafin-based oil broke down into greenish crud when faced with the oil temps generated by the air cooled VW.  In a water cooled Buick V8 it was never an issue.  

As I see it, unless the application actually demands some super-lubricant, it's probably a waste of money to slavishly use it.  Just like it's a waste of money to put premimum gas in my old Ural.  Been running regular for six years and never had an issue.

PeteT.  

As to the computer analogy, MS does load lots of crap from new. I generally spend two-three days removing it when new. They have agreements to load various programs that allow marketing and monitoring. That is how they make heir money, not from the software consumers. MS is the worlds largest virus.

As to the oil, did you read Pete's article on the dissection of the new CARC motors with additional oil passages?

Offline Kev m

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2012, 06:32:01 AM »
I don't think the fuel analogy holds any water either. At the very least you'd need to find out what oil recommendations they make in different markets (away from EPA or EU control) to know if you've got anything to base it on.

Also the comments on marketing miss the target. Though I'm sure there is a relationship between Piaggio and AGIP,  it's not like AGIP is the only possible source of oils that meet their recommendations.


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kitze2

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2012, 07:08:13 AM »
I give up.  Who did play the Gorn?
Shatners stunt double...Gary Combs.
I'm sure he used synthetic. I mean...Dino would be morally reprehensible to a Gorn. :D
For all you true Trek geeks....What makes Mark Leonard unique iin the series?  ???

Offline kirb

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Re: What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2012, 07:21:14 AM »
I don't think the fuel analogy holds any water either. At the very least you'd need to find out what oil recommendations they make in different markets (away from EPA or EU control) to know if you've got anything to base it on.

Also the comments on marketing miss the target. Though I'm sure there is a relationship between Piaggio and AGIP,  it's not like AGIP is the only possible source of oils that meet their recommendations.

They are both Italian companies...I suspect there is a lot of old school business practices going on there. One thing they CAN'T do in the US is tell you that you have to use AGIP. A MFG must supply that item for free if that is required to maintain warranty (I got a HD dealer into a pickle when they refused my Buell warranty claim because I didn't use the HD oil they said Buell requires). This still requires the owner to use an oil that is of similar spec. Why would anyone risk this during the warranty period to save a handfull of $$?

That being said, my Griso is the only bike that suggests a specific brand. I try to use that brand as 10w-60 is somewhat hard to find anyway.

 

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