What's the deal with 10W60 motor oil

[ITSec]

A number of the Italian beasts, as well as some Rotax-engined machines, call for this oil - as do most BMW cars of recent years, some Porsches and some Ferraris (I am told). Basically, it means the engine needs an oil that is moderately thin when cold (10w) that retains its essential properties even at extremely high temperatures and pressures (60). Yes, this is an over-simplification, but you know what I mean.

I stick with the spec - but I have found relatively inexpensive sources of ELF/TOTAL 10w60 from eBay, where buying by the case brings the price down to normal MC price levels (still higher than auto, for no good reason).

[IceBlue]

I asked a chemist at Petro Canada about ZDDP levels and what has been done to make oils better.  He say the ZDDP is not the same as it used to be and is much better now requiring less than before.  Seeing how long engines last these days I have to believe him.

I asked a Castrol guy here the same question, he said the same as your Petro Canada guy.
I ride SB's and they can get very hot, if pushed. My old V50/III lose power and the oil lamp starts going on at 1500rpm, then I know she's hot from spinning 7-8000rpm for an extended period of time.
So I use the best 10W60 and add ZDDP to cover all bases although claimed not nessesary by the oil guy.

Ciao

[HDGoose]

Wow..all the petro-chemical experts here! Simply amazing. ;) 8)

[Thunderbox]

Wow..all the petro-chemical experts here! Simply amazing. ;) 8)

Yes it is amazing.  You are indeed fortunate to have this information.  Use it to your advantage.  Remember niether of us said we were chemists.  We just talked to some.  It pays to go to the people who know rather than listen to a guesser.

[vibr8r]

youre completely missing the point ( and im surprised kev hasn;t jumped in.  tho you are baiting him a bit )
while i agree with your original post, and that the hydros could probably use a 50 or 60 wt especially if you live in the south where it hits 100 +    the hydro part of it ( and this is important ) requires the 5w. a 10w would be risky, and a 20w just plain foolish.  so until they start making a 5w-60, i'd stick with the 5w-40 that is recommended for the hydros

I'm in complete agreement with you about using the 5w40 because of the hydraulic lifters.  Apparently Guzzi had them made to use 5w40, whereas Harley hydraulic lifters are made to use 20w50.  Guzzi didn't, in my manual, allow any latitude from the use of 5w40, so I disagree with the selliing dealer's choice of 20w50 and 10w60. 

My point regards the needs of the other systems in the Cali engines.  I don't have a parts manual, but I assume the other systems in the hydro engines use the same parts as in the mechanical tappet engines.  If that is true, the other systems are fine with 5w40, 20w50, or 10w60.  And if that is true, Guzzi is prescribing 20w50 and 10w60 for the sole purpose of lubricating the mechanical valve lifter system.  Otherwise, the 5w40 is a compromise.

I've been riding mostly air cooled bikes for 40 years.  We have some traffic jams around Atlanta, so the use of a thinner oil makes me a little nervous.  I'm not trying to bait anyone.  I'm sorry if I offended anyone.   

[Pfaff!]

I asked a Castrol guy here the same question, he said the same as your Petro Canada guy.
I ride SB's and they can get very hot, if pushed. My old V50/III lose power and the oil lamp starts going on at 1500rpm, then I know she's hot from spinning 7-8000rpm for an extended period of time.
So I use the best 10W60 and add ZDDP to cover all bases although claimed not nessesary by the oil guy.

Ciao

Hot?

Well, this is the most frequent temperature I read summertime



For the zink additives of the standard AGIP 10-60 I know nothing, I'm more afraid of the oil withstanding the heat over longer distances, and won't be stuck somewhere with a motor clogged with resin. Seems like (the EFI-) smallblocks runs the hottest of them all. May be one of many good ideas to follow the serviceannouncement s of July 2006.

And yes, the thermometer shows right figures, as far as I can tell



 ;D

[Chuck in Indiana]

My kid was going to buy an oil temp gauge like that for his Greenie from Gordon at MG . Gordon said, "What do you want that for? You can only see it when you're sitting still, and it's going to read hotter than you wanted to see, anyway."  ;D ;D
Apparently, he was right again..

[Kev m]

I'm in complete agreement with you about using the 5w40 because of the hydraulic lifters.  Apparently Guzzi had them made to use 5w40, whereas Harley hydraulic lifters are made to use 20w50.  Guzzi didn't, in my manual, allow any latitude from the use of 5w40, so I disagree with the selliing dealer's choice of 20w50 and 10w60. 

My point regards the needs of the other systems in the Cali engines.  I don't have a parts manual, but I assume the other systems in the hydro engines use the same parts as in the mechanical tappet engines.  If that is true, the other systems are fine with 5w40, 20w50, or 10w60.  And if that is true, Guzzi is prescribing 20w50 and 10w60 for the sole purpose of lubricating the mechanical valve lifter system.  Otherwise, the 5w40 is a compromise.

I've been riding mostly air cooled bikes for 40 years.  We have some traffic jams around Atlanta, so the use of a thinner oil makes me a little nervous.  I'm not trying to bait anyone.  I'm sorry if I offended anyone.   

But you're assuming facts not yet proven.

I don't know that the pistons or crank or bearings are the same.

I DO KNOW that they hydros are tuned differently, not just peak power, but the rpms where power is made. They come on stronger and more torquey from a lower RPM.

How much of a difference is that? I dunno.

I also know that the technical service bulletin came out AFTER their production and AFTER Guzzi engineers so TOTALLY screwed the pooch with repeated attempts to keep them from eating their crankshafts that I don't trust anything put in their ORIGINAL MANUAL.

The TSB came at a time where the internals of the Cali motors had been changed significantly - i.e. the Breva 1100 Spec Crankshaft, Pistons, etc - had all been introduced. That with tuning differences might very well be the reason they changed the recommendation to 10-60 on the late-model mechanical lifter Cali models, but unlike the Carc models they DO still leave the door open for 20-50.

Now as my position has been for all of this - I SUSPECT their recommendations are all based on what they believe will provide THE BEST PROTECTION/MOST PROTECTION for the models in question.

IS the 5-40 a "compromise" on the Hydro models - I stand by my original answer - NOT NECESSARILY. Go search some parts manuals and tell me what's the same, then maybe I'll relent on that.

And yes, obviously the recommendation was related to the new Cams and Valve Train.

[kitze2]

I just bought a new washing machine.
It says some gibberish like 120 volts in the manual
I'll just plug it into the old 220 volt dyer outlet.
Hey, it's all electricity. It'll be twice as fast to wash stuff.  :) ;) :D

[roofus]

I just bought a new washing machine.
It says some gibberish like 120 volts in the manual
I'll just plug it into the old 220 volt dyer outlet.
Hey, it's all electricity. It'll be twice as fast to wash stuff.  :) ;) :D

Wouldn't you have to use 20W120 then?  ???

[Pfaff!]

My kid was going to buy an oil temp gauge like that for his Greenie from Gordon at MG . Gordon said, "What do you want that for? You can only see it when you're sitting still, and it's going to read hotter than you wanted to see, anyway."  ;D ;D
Apparently, he was right again..

Bought the thermometer when draining some odd funny textured brownish oil of that high-quality 10-50 full synth racing oil that I used to pour in. The €19 spent on the thermometer made me convinced of the idea to use the back then-proposed oil quality. ;-T
I also learned that low outside temperatures will cool the oil so bad that it will reach only 120*C.
Well spent money, IMHO.  ;D
My only sorrows are the bad taste of the thermometer-soup.

[Lannis]

Wouldn't you have to use 20W120 then?  ???

Or if you can't find that, you can just put in 7 liters of 10W60.    Same thing.

Lannis

[alpine]

2000 miles JEZUS KEYRIST I never went that short with Dino juice.

6k miles or a year with a quality synthetic.

I go 10K on most cars these days,  15-18k on our old Mini with the oil life monitor.

In 35 years of working on Honda cars , I have seen a lot of engines gone south . Oils have gotten to be extremely good in the last 15 years but no customer of mine is going to use the oil monitor and go 10k 15k 18k on the same oil, not even 7500 miles if I have a say about it  !!! I get to think about all the Byproducts of combustion , do some of that ends up in the sump with that 18k oil ??        Please ...

Roberto.

[Kev m]

In 35 years of working on Honda cars , I have seen a lot of engines gone south . Oils have gotten to be extremely good in the last 15 years but no customer of mine is going to use the oil monitor and go 10k 15k 18k on the same oil, not even 7500 miles if I have a say about it  !!! I get to think about all the Byproducts of combustion , do some of that ends up in the sump with that 18k oil ??        Please ...

Roberto.

Do yourself a favor and join the 21st century.

I'm NOT dismissing your past experience,  I'm just pointing out it goes back so far it's tainted.

I've rebuilt my share of motors. Trust me modern oils and machines are a combination that were unequalled for the majority of your experience. 250K miles on a modern Subaru motor with M1 at 10k intervals was typical.  The Mini,  though we didn't tear down ran too perfectly to have been in any way questionable.  It would have burned oil or the supercharger would have gone south or it at least would have blown a J2008 dyno emissions test if there was an issue.

[alpine]

            :)

[Idontwantapickle]

I just bought a new washing machine.
It says some gibberish like 120 volts in the manual
I'll just plug it into the old 220 volt dyer outlet.
Hey, it's all electricity. It'll be twice as fast to wash stuff.  :) ;) :D

Heck yeah! I did that to my TV, now I can watch the game twice as fast!

[Thunderbox]

In 35 years of working on Honda cars , I have seen a lot of engines gone south . Oils have gotten to be extremely good in the last 15 years but no customer of mine is going to use the oil monitor and go 10k 15k 18k on the same oil, not even 7500 miles if I have a say about it  !!! I get to think about all the Byproducts of combustion , do some of that ends up in the sump with that 18k oil ??        Please ...

Roberto.

I run a large police garage and on several occasions the vehicles were put into service and the computer was not set to pick up oil changes.  So we had a few vehicles go well past the planned oil change interval.  The latest one went 26000kms or 16200 miles.  I had the mechanic get a sample of the oil and we sent it away to have the oil analysed.  It came back as exceptable, there were no abnormal wear particle counts but they stated it was close to being ready for a change.  That was just plain old Petro Canada 5W30.  We have had no engine problems with our 175 vehicles and when a rocker cover is taken off to replace a gasket the inside of the engines are absolutely clean as a whistle.  Most people change their engine oil far to often because it has been ingrained in them hundreds of times over the years.  I used to change oils at 4000 miles in all my cars but I now change them at a higher mileage.  They still use no oil and I have experienced zero problems. 

[Kev m]

I've seen M1 oil samples come back from 15-20k miles of use (in late-model domestic vehicles of the time)that were still reading acceptable as well.

A lot of the guys on this board don't want to hear it though, so I usually don't bother telling the stories.

It's seeing these examples that first convinced me to adopt 10k oil changes on all of our cars, and THAT WAS MORE THAN A DECADE AGO NOW.

[Sack]

Kev, did you see/hear that California is proposing to get rid of the very popular 3000 mile oil change with a longer interval? It's to get rid of the old belief that 3000 miles is hard and fast and even applies to new cars and oils that a majority cling to. It's for conservation and the enviroment, etc.

It's a long battle.

[Kev m]

I had not heard, but I'm not particularly surprised.

[Jaxthedog]

Having lived in California for 59+ years, (and a credentialed drivers education and training teacher*) I was unaware that the state sanctioned in any way any intervals regarding oil changes or any other aspects of automobile maintenance other than smog check requirements. 

Not sure the state can outlaw (or inlaw) the 3,000 mile change.  I would be interested in in more details on this proposal, including the source of the information.  We have a pretty meddlesome legislature in the Golden State, but I can't imagine the reason any of 'em might carry this.

Like most things, oil change interval is not a matter of legislation. It is a matter of education - and not in the formal sense - but in the father to son, mother to daughter hand down the facts around the campfire sorta like this: 

"You know son (or daughter) back in olden days, the Indians, why, they never changed their oil at all!  Neither did the pilgrims!  3,000 miles?  Bah!  That Speedee guy's just sellin' you snake oil."

Seriously, folks, after reading through this thread I know a hell of a lot more about oil than I thought I ever would.  Too bad the information is so difficult to come by for those in the general population.

Thanks for everyone's insights on this matter.

*  Full disclosure:  Thankfully for the world, I never actually taught behind the wheel other than to my kids. ;)

[Kent in Upstate NY]

Patrick Bedard, in Car and Driver, wrote an article about what he called the bunkum sticker, i.e. the 3000 mile oil change myth. He labeled it a marketing gimmick.

[Kev m]

It was more than a decade ago when most car manufacturers moved away from 3k oil changes for normal service.

Hell even Harley went to 5k or so with Dino juice years ago.

[Lank]

Patrick Bedard, in Car and Driver, wrote an article about what he called the bunkum sticker, i.e. the 3000 mile oil change myth. He labeled it a marketing gimmick.

Imagine how much money that makes for the "oil change experts".  Probably a billion bucks extra per year.  Back in my aviation days when we got a chip light it was as often as not from can residue.  We threw away a lot of good oil.  Synthetic 23699 and they still are using it.  Came in cans then. Wonder who makes it and if it compares to anything auto.  Compatible with ball and rollers so should work great for mc engines. Who gonna try it first.  I would if I had some.  Used to run fine in VW's too.  lol

[Sack]

http://articles.sfgate.com/2008-02-10/bay-area/17139763_1_oil-waste-car-s-oil-car-engines

http://blogs.automotive.com/california-tells-drivers-to-stop-changing-oil-every-3000-miles-70797.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-drive/new-cars/auto-news/drivers-changing-oil-too-often-california-warns/article2279269/

Sounds like an uphill battle on several levels.

[Jaxthedog]

Thanks, Sack.  This is very interesting and helps a lot to dispel the 3000 mile myth I've been ignoring for years. 

Truth be told, I get my oil changed every 5000 miles, but only because it's the only time my windshield gets thoroughly cleaned. ;-T

[Maciek]

     After reading all the interesting info I feel that my 2005 Nevada definitely deserves Agip 10W60 oil. The only problem is where to buy it in small quantity. I don't want to be stock with 6+ years of supply buying whole case on internet. Is anybody in similar situation in Try-state area and would like to share the internet purchase of a case of it. It would come to $11/litre shipped to my address in Brooklyn, NY. Anyone interested please e-mail me, Thanks, Mike  (maciek188@yahoo.com)

[rodekyll]

     After reading all the interesting info I feel that my 2005 Nevada definitely deserves Agip 10W60 oil. The only problem is where to buy it in small quantity. I don't want to be stock with 6+ years of supply buying whole case on internet. Is anybody in similar situation in Try-state area and would like to share the internet purchase of a case of it. It would come to $11/litre shipped to my address in Brooklyn, NY. Anyone interested please e-mail me, Thanks, Mike  (maciek188@yahoo.com)

Mike - start a new topic with the title "Anyone want to share a case of 10/60 in the NYC area"   This will get a much better response than attaching to an oil thread.

[jdgretz]

Better idea would to be get out and ride more so you need that whole case of oil  ;D

jdg

[slopokes]

 :+=copcar maciek,if I get a b11 I will be happy to split a case...