Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dilliw on July 18, 2017, 08:50:36 AM

Title: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Dilliw on July 18, 2017, 08:50:36 AM
...of the pirate era?  Maybe this is why HD is once again looking at the sport bike market to increase sales:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-harley-davidson-results-idUSKBN1A3126

Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: wavedog on July 18, 2017, 09:23:40 AM
Ha- I thought you were quoting Dylan. Has not Harley done something like this before? Cut production, create demand, driving up the out the door cost per unit and by doing so this may increase the value of a bike on the secondary market, thus making the new bike purchase seem more attractive? I remember when there were waiting lists to purchase a new Harley. Prices on the primary (and secondary) market were high and so were dealer fees. Perhaps the economic situation driving the cut in deliveries/production is different this time?
 In Florida the Harley market is not just baby boomers. It is young men and older guys riding sportsters, young women riding big twins and everything in between. But that's just what I observe here about a half hour from Daytona and may not apply to the rest of the country.
 Interesting times we live in.
Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: screamday on July 18, 2017, 09:33:30 AM
...of the pirate era?  Maybe this is why HD is once again looking at the sport bike market to increase sales:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-harley-davidson-results-idUSKBN1A3126

Quote
The Milwaukee-based motorcycle maker, which had previously forecast flat to modestly down full-year shipments, said it expects to ship 241,000 to 246,000 motorcycles in 2017, compared with 262,221 a year earlier.

That's a lot of motorcycles. I think Harley's biggest mistake was getting into bed with Wall Street many years ago.
Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: oldbike54 on July 18, 2017, 09:58:12 AM
 My nephew the Harley salesman tells me that the MoCo is concerned . He bases this on the communication between the MoCo and the very large corporate dealership where he works . The dealership is getting pressure to "do something" because sales and overall market share are on the decline . Like Sears or K Mart , once a huge company begins to contract it can be tough to find equilibrium . HD rode the wave successfully for many years , but that wave may be dying on the shores of a shrinking market , and an unwillingness to look far enough into the future .

 Dusty

 PS . One thing my nephew has told me is that in his dealership sales of Motor Clothes have declined , T shirts and doo rag sales ain't what they used to be .
 
Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: John Ulrich on July 18, 2017, 10:04:31 AM
Perhaps the economic situation driving the cut in deliveries/production is different this time?
 In Florida the Harley market is not just baby boomers. It is young men and older guys riding sportsters, young women riding big twins and everything in between.

Yup, their clientele is diminishing.  At first you could blame the economy but it's clicking along at 2%.  The Conference Board Leading Economic Index� (LEI) for the U.S. Increased in May, Expansion in Economic Activity Will Continue Through 2017

I think HD is serious at keeping their dealer base stocked with product to sell that will attract a new audience. They are smart to think outside the box but their dealers have to accept it.

One thing I'm seeing is an increase in ladies joining the Guzzi facebook group listing recent purchases of V7's.  That's a positive for the home team!
Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: JJ on July 18, 2017, 10:19:12 AM
"Harley-Geezers"....certainly never to be confused with...."Guzzi-Geezers!!" (lol)  :laugh: :grin: :wink:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/cVWTAF/Screen_Shot_2017_07_18_at_8_17_24_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/cVWTAF)

image storage api (http://imgbb.com/)


Since the joke is that Moto Guzzi..."has been going out of business since 1921"  :huh: :shocked:  HD can always sing this classic by The Doors!!  :laugh: :grin: :wink:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VScSEXRwUqQ
Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: Two Checks on July 18, 2017, 10:27:43 AM
With pick ups and SUVs running 50-60k and ya gotta have 1 for the wife and 1 foy self there is no money for a 25k bike.
Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: kidsmoke on July 18, 2017, 10:28:17 AM
I spoke with a shop owner over the weekend. He has a couple of brands he reps new, and does some service. Personally owns 25 bikes. A couple hogs, a bunch of Ducatis, and his main interest, personally, a dozen Moto Guzzis. All between the years 1970 and 1985.

We talked about the lack of Guzzi shops and he shared that, as a Vespa dealer at one time, Piaggio was impossible to work with, and not worth for a small businessman who wants to be able to flip his shingle to "closed" on a whim, and go for a ride. He also attends corporate functions at HD in Milwaukee as a stockholder, if I understood him correctly.

He stated that HD is basically "getting out of" New Motorcycle business, in that they no longer see their long term viability as a business developing and selling new machines, although they'll never stop. They are shifting their focus to developing riders. They've even put numbers to their goals. 20 million regular riders developed, and a timeline to boot. Forgive me I don't recall the fine points, it was the overall re-adjust that was notable, and seems appropriate.  Build demand, and provide the network to feed it. They've built the network, they've flooded the continent with machinery, now they need more competent mile munchers needing everything 2 wheeled related, parts, service, attire.

Also mentioned that n addition to Ducati, they're looking at Royal Enfield.

Also worth noting that here in Indy, I'm running into women on bikes ALL the time. In fact at that little shop, the only other rider I met was a woman, guessing approx 50ish who rolled up on a ratty G5, her newest acquisition, and has been leaving Triumph at home.

I've got a good lady friend in Chicago who's been badgering me for info on bikes and she and a girlfriend signed up to take riding classes, and she'll be looking for a bike in the fall. Wants me to keep my eyes peeled.

The culture continues to have appeal, and more and more, HD is out of the equation.

Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: Aaron D. on July 18, 2017, 02:24:44 PM
Well, if they want new riders maybe they should call Elton John back for a celebration.
Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: JJ on July 18, 2017, 02:36:44 PM
Well, if they want new riders maybe they should call Elton John back for a celebration.

Sadly...it ain't gonna help.... :laugh: :grin: :wink:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/c3Lf9k/Screen_Shot_2017_07_18_at_12_35_16_PM.png) (http://ibb.co/c3Lf9k)
Title: HD sales drop, Bloomberg News
Post by: chuck peterson on July 18, 2017, 02:43:18 PM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-18/harley-davidson-is-losing-its-cool

I am a gas powered dinosaur

"Registration of large bikes down 7%...."

Title: Re: HD sales drop, Bloomberg News
Post by: chuck peterson on July 18, 2017, 02:58:10 PM
This also explains why the local south central ct craigslist is about 75% used hd...cheap, too...$3k can get you a nice sporty, etc on up the scale, but mostly I'm seeing them sit there a long time.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: LowRyter on July 18, 2017, 04:05:06 PM
was just reading this when I came over here.  The page was still open on the browser.

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/harley-davidson-inc-hog-stock-165303854.html

Looks like Harley is learning what the Japanese learned in the 80s (and again since '08) and perhaps what Europeans might be learning soon: Growth in the motorcycle business doesn't go on forever.  The business end has to be able to cope with downturns and no growth. 

The fact that Harley hasn't diversified it's product line, perhaps couldn't to be true to it's clientele, doesn't give them a lot of flexibility.   I'd guess most of the baby boomers have had their Harleys and perhaps have one (two or three) in the garage with <5,000 miles on them.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: bad Chad on July 18, 2017, 04:15:06 PM
What, the LiveWire didn't save them?  Surely they have them on the floor selling like hot cakes by now?
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: drums4money on July 18, 2017, 05:29:34 PM
I was considering a Harley until just now.  I noticed one of the banner ads delivered to my Wild Guzzi forum is from F.C. Kerbeck Motor Cars.  They're offering .99% financing on any new Bentley.  I might just have to drive home a new Continental GT instead of a Sportster. 
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: cruzziguzzi on July 18, 2017, 06:16:43 PM
Read about this in the WSJ and really took from it less "failing" than simply being left behind by market shifts. They still do what they do better than anyone else and between changing trends and unprecedented competition, they were doomed to a "correction".

Doubtless the reason for the Ducati move.


Todd.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on July 18, 2017, 06:27:00 PM
It's not just H-D, others in the industry are in the same situation and not meeting their financials goals.  It seems to be the current trend in the industry. H-D, is the largest manufacturer of street going bikes world wide, so its understandable they  are hit the hardest. The H-D brand is highly respected around the world and they are master at marketing. This isn't the 1st time they've been in trouble, don't count them out. 



Paul
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on July 18, 2017, 06:42:48 PM
It's not just H-D, others in the industry are in the same situation and not meeting their financials goals.  It seems to be the current trend in the industry. H-D, is the largest manufacturer of street going bikes world wide, so its understandable they  are hit the hardest. The H-D brand is highly respected around the world and they are master at marketing. This isn't the 1st time they've been in trouble, don't count them out. 



Paul

 Actually I believe Honda is the largest manufacturer of street bikes , and maybe Hero is number two .

 Dusty
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: LowRyter on July 18, 2017, 08:25:14 PM
Actually I believe Honda is the largest manufacturer of street bikes , and maybe Hero is number two .

 Dusty

Heavy Bikes!  Not a rice grinder!   -Fender Roads (Basher Tarr, Oceans 13)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cui1ZSWXgAA8Fe8.jpg)
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: GearheadGrrrl on July 18, 2017, 08:45:22 PM
HOG(NYSE) had a bike that appealed to young riders: Buell. Of course, they killed it...
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Scud on July 18, 2017, 10:10:56 PM
I'm in Milwaukee right now. Wandered over to the Harley Davidson museum - although closed, I intended to eat at the museum restaurant. But it was closed for a private party.

Got some funny looks, but no comments about my Ducati shirt.


(http://thumb.ibb.co/mhUbX5/IMG_6553.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mhUbX5)


This sign and the "ride" are right at the front door of the museum.


(http://thumb.ibb.co/iXJQQQ/IMG_6554.jpg) (http://ibb.co/iXJQQQ)

service images free (http://imgbb.com/)



(http://thumb.ibb.co/eXebX5/IMG_6555.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eXebX5)


And look at this statue... How about a new Harley Davidson that could fit a sand-paddle rear tire? That'd be something.


(http://thumb.ibb.co/cJTv9k/IMG_6556.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cJTv9k)
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: bacongrease on July 18, 2017, 11:04:42 PM
  however,  when a dealership closes, it ain't a HD one.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: steven c on July 19, 2017, 08:58:10 AM
 Maybe they should bring back the Blast. :boozing:
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: JJ on July 19, 2017, 09:04:06 AM
Maybe they should bring back the Blast. :boozing:

Let's all have........a "BLAST!!"  :rolleyes: :huh: :shocked: :laugh: :grin: :wink:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/ihoMh5/Screen_Shot_2017_07_19_at_7_02_40_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/ihoMh5)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/bQGk9k/Screen_Shot_2017_07_19_at_7_02_47_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/bQGk9k)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/bSoMh5/Screen_Shot_2017_07_19_at_7_02_56_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/bSoMh5)

upload gif image (http://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: bad Chad on July 19, 2017, 10:25:44 AM
I road a Blast, I was impressed with it.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 19, 2017, 01:35:18 PM
Nice Valerie had one. Like the brakes like the suspension but it had a motor only a mother could love.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: canuck750 on July 19, 2017, 01:56:47 PM
Harley has been cashing in on selling a 'Life Style' more than selling a motorcycle. Like all trends in fashion, entertainment, etc, the 'Life Style' trend will pass and they will just have their bikes to rely upon. Much like Triumph in the 60's, refusing to adapt to a changing market, they will find themselves left behind. It may take another 5 ~ 10 years but its will happen unless HD moves beyond the big lumbering twin.

On a related note my long time riding partner, a Goldwing man since 1976 has always secretly hankered for a HD. Unfortunately a good friend of his was just diagnosed with a degenerative neurological disease that has cut his riding days short and was forced to part with a 4 year old Road King, all decked out and in like new shape. The RK ticked all my friends boxes, all black, lots of chrome added, upgraded exhaust etc... So my buddy purchases said HD and within 1 week he tells me its for sale. I suggest he give it a decent try, keep it for a year, take it down to his winter home in Palm Springs and enjoy it. No doing, he says other than making a lot of noise it is way too underpowered after riding his Valkyrie or GL1800, too top heavy, handling is sub-par compared to the Honda's and so on. Now if a guy who's 1st bike was a new 1965 S90, been riding ever since, +20K miles per year can't adapt to a HD what's the future for them?
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: TimmyTheHog on July 19, 2017, 02:17:03 PM
Harley has been cashing in on selling a 'Life Style' more than selling a motorcycle. Like all trends in fashion, entertainment, etc, the 'Life Style' trend will pass and they will just have their bikes to rely upon. Much like Triumph in the 60's, refusing to adapt to a changing market, they will find themselves left behind. It may take another 5 ~ 10 years but its will happen unless HD moves beyond the big lumbering twin.

On a related note my long time riding partner, a Goldwing man since 1976 has always secretly hankered for a HD. Unfortunately a good friend of his was just diagnosed with a degenerative neurological disease that has cut his riding days short and was forced to part with a 4 year old Road King, all decked out and in like new shape. The RK ticked all my friends boxes, all black, lots of chrome added, upgraded exhaust etc... So my buddy purchases said HD and within 1 week he tells me its for sale. I suggest he give it a decent try, keep it for a year, take it down to his winter home in Palm Springs and enjoy it. No doing, he says other than making a lot of noise it is way too underpowered after riding his Valkyrie or GL1800, too top heavy, handling is sub-par compared to the Honda's and so on. Now if a guy who's 1st bike was a new 1965 S90, been riding ever since, +20K miles per year can't adapt to a HD what's the future for them?

Life style +1

I have a lot of friends who rides HD because they enjoy the lifestyle of it.

But everytime when it comes down to what they REALLY enjoy riding when it comes to performance, they ended pointing to their Ducati, Triumph, and even Honda...

All because when it comes to "looking cool" & "style point", HD def wins in a lot of spots...but we don't all just ride for the style points as we would like that OOMPH sometimes...that is when HD falls short.

Don't get me wrong, HD does make some powerful bikes and i admit they do look cool, but when compare to other makes of bike, they are basically on par for 3 or 4 times the $$$...
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 19, 2017, 05:57:38 PM
Meh,

Canuck's friend was never really the customer, not because the number of miles he rides but because of what attracted him to a GL1800 or Valkyrie in the first place.

And the lifestyle vs. performance argument is a non-starter on this forum.

 My three Guzzis have not been any faster than equivalent model Harleys.

And even a Griso 8V is really nothing to brag about if it nothing but performance matters.

Frankly my new RK is faster than I need and it's bone stock.

Anyway there's no doubt that a shift is occurring in the market place and that Harley might do better if they diversified a bit, but I don't think the market for classics/cruisers/tourers is going away completely any time soon.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 19, 2017, 06:01:48 PM
PS the money thing is BS too.

Sure you CAN spend ridiculous dosh on some top of the line models loaded with accessories.   

But equally you can buy models for similar prices to the competition if you look. Hell I just spent less on a new RK then I would have a Cali 1400.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: ITSec on July 19, 2017, 06:03:56 PM

...I don't think the market for classics/cruisers/tourers are going away completely any time soon.


Piaggio better hope it isn't, since they've bet the Mandello del Lario farm on that area of the market, at least for the next few years!
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 19, 2017, 06:08:10 PM
Piaggio better hope it isn't, since they've bet the Mandello del Lario farm on that area of the market, at least for the next few years!
Yup, that too.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: TimmyTheHog on July 19, 2017, 06:29:37 PM
PS the money thing is BS too.

Sure you CAN spend ridiculous dosh on some top of the line models loaded with accessories.   

But equally you can buy models for similar prices to the competition if you look. Hell I just spent less on a new RK then I would have a Cali 1400.

Perhaps it's Canada, or perhaps it's my local dealer...

But when a fatbob or a soft tail slim with no accessories costs the same with a 1400 California with full fairing, that is pricy to me...

I am gonna go with its Canada...
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: canuck750 on July 19, 2017, 06:39:18 PM
Just one man's opinion, Honda over Harley, as for me I prefer neither, I pick up a 2016 K1600 GTL tomorrow for my sofa on wheels variant of motorcycling to travel with missus Canuck on. Somewhere north of 700 lbs and a lot of ponies to get from A to Z.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 19, 2017, 06:39:20 PM
Perhaps it's Canada, or perhaps it's my local dealer...

But when a fatbob or a soft tail slim with no accessories costs the same with a 1400 California with full fairing, that is pricy to me...

I am gonna go with its Canada...
Oh there are certainly some outrageously priced models, Softails usually among them, but there are plenty that are competitive too.

That said, yes exports are often priced much higher.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: cruzziguzzi on July 19, 2017, 07:28:46 PM
In a form of aside. I've been reading for many weeks in places like WSJ, economist and the like that the international automobile industry is girding its collective loins against the back-wash of the coming new-car glut.

Perhaps Harley is merely the bellwether for the motorcycle industry considering that they are more singularly market focused than most any other manufacturer? Harley has NO fall-back position from heavy cruiser other than the new, weird and slowly accepted to Harley - lightweights. And in heavy cruiser, I include the Sportster line.



Todd.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Chesterfield on July 19, 2017, 09:09:41 PM
This article was a a bellwether from 6 years ago. Many of my friends were dismissive of it at the time. I thought it was totally going to be the way it is turning out to be. I wished my thinking was wrong on this.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/opinion/sunday/is-the-iphone-replacing-the-motorcycle.html?mcubz=2
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: ITSec on July 19, 2017, 09:19:41 PM
Perhaps it's Canada, or perhaps it's my local dealer...

But when a fatbob or a soft tail slim with no accessories costs the same with a 1400 California with full fairing, that is pricy to me...

I am gonna go with its Canada...

Back when I lived in Edmonton and hung around with Steen Hansen's kids, it was pretty widely acknowledged that the HD Canada organization (which has a completely unique relationship to the mothercorp compared to operations in other countries) tacked on a premium of around 25% or more on all new HDs they provided to dealers. From all I've heard, nothing has changed. Take US retail, add the exchange rate for the loonie, then add 25% or so 'just because we can'.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: canuck750 on July 19, 2017, 10:16:33 PM
Back when I lived in Edmonton and hung around with Steen Hansen's kids, it was pretty widely acknowledged that the HD Canada organization (which has a completely unique relationship to the mothercorp compared to operations in other countries) tacked on a premium of around 25% or more on all new HDs they provided to dealers. From all I've heard, nothing has changed. Take US retail, add the exchange rate for the loonie, then add 25% or so 'just because we can'.

Up until a couple years ago ALL Harley Davidsons shipped to Canada where distributed through the Deeley empire in Vancouver and they set the retail prices. Harley dealerships in the USA would not sell a new HD to a Canadian customer that was planning on taking the bike back to Canada. Back around 2010 when the Canadian buck was worth more than the US greenback a Canadian could get a new HD for a lot less in the USA, a lot of 'like new' Harleys found their way north. I can't speak for HD new prices in Canada but now but most Japanese bikes and BMW are cheaper for me to buy here in Canada. A bike that sells for $25K USD sells for about the same in CDN dollars.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: ITSec on July 19, 2017, 10:28:20 PM
Up until a couple years ago ALL Harley Davidsons shipped to Canada where distributed through the Deeley empire in Vancouver and they set the retail prices. Harley dealerships in the USA would not sell a new HD to a Canadian customer that was planning on taking the bike back to Canada. Back around 2010 when the Canadian buck was worth more than the US greenback a Canadian could get a new HD for a lot less in the USA, a lot of 'like new' Harleys found their way north. I can't speak for HD new prices in Canada but now but most Japanese bikes and BMW are cheaper for me to buy here in Canada. A bike that sells for $25K USD sells for about the same in CDN dollars.

Good to hear. When I bought my V-Strom in Edmonton back in 2002 it was about 10% higher than in the US after exchange rates were considered.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Arizona Wayne on July 20, 2017, 12:59:47 AM
10 years ago I had a Guzzi friend that decided to buy a new Harley instead in norCal and found out he could only buy 1 for  a local HD dealer where he lived, period.  :huh:  No other HD dealers would seriously offer to sell him a new bike.  That pissed him off so he bought a new Victory instead.  :azn:
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 20, 2017, 01:13:03 AM
10 years ago I had a Guzzi friend that decided to buy a new Harley instead in norCal and found out he could only buy 1 for  a local HD dealer where he lived, period.  :huh:  No other HD dealers would seriously offer to sell him a new bike.  That pissed him off so he bought a new Victory instead.  :azn:
That's weird and doesn't make any sense, at least not framed with my experiences.

And considering 10 years ago was literally the time when the bubble had burst, recession was hitting, and Harley dealers had hit a point where for a number of years they'd no longer been selling out their entire inventory and were starting to discount/negotiate.

But hell even back in the days of the "lists" (90's) in PA there were literally half a dozen dealers in less than an hour's ride and I could have easily bought from any of them (and did buy from two different ones regardless of my address).

Of course Harley's story for the past three or four decades is a pretty unique one with unprecedented growth and success the size and rate of which was never sustainable so the only question is how far the market will correct.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on July 20, 2017, 10:48:31 AM

Ah, the 1990s and waiting lists.  I ordered a new 1994 HD in October 1993 and took delivery six months later, in April 1994 !!!  Bought it in Memphis because the dealer in Little Rock was more expensive and couldn't guarantee a delivery date.

I remember hearing about some dealers who wouldn't sell out of their "territory", trying to ensure service customers, I guess.  However, I have not ever had an HD dealer tell me they wouldn't sell to me because I wasn't local.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on July 20, 2017, 11:04:47 AM
 Circa 1999 the old Myers Duren HD in Tulsa was still located in their old location which was pretty small , although they had a remote warehouse . They pretty much wouldn't do business with a customer who wasn't local . That probably doesn't apply anymore .

 Dusty
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 20, 2017, 11:50:21 AM
This is happening a bit later than I thought but I have thought since well before the recession that HOG was going to contract significantly due to attrition of baby boomers.  Unless their promise on 50 new models in the next 5 years takes off they are doomed. Those 50 new models should already have been on the market. It is hard to believe they haven't looked at their demographics these past 2 decades and planned ahead. Loosing Buell was a huge mistake. They could have done more with that platform and eaten away at the Japanese and Ducati market. Look at what all those city bikers who ride in groups are riding. Those guys are nuts but they are a big market and HOG didn't try and bust into it. With the destruction of Buell the lost all possible Ducati crossover. With the high cost of maintenance on Ducks they could have let Buell be Buell and take a slice of that cake.
At the local Sunday morning MC gathering you could see upwards on a good day of 150+ bikes. Buells came in riding with the sport bike crowd and not with the cruiser HD crowd. The came in AGATT and were younger riders compared HD cruise crowd.  If I owned HOG I'd sell it.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on July 20, 2017, 11:53:24 AM
And the beat goes on for BMW: https://rideapart.com/articles/bmw-motorrad-reports-record-growth-bike-sales

Paul
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: JJ on July 20, 2017, 12:06:30 PM
And the beat goes on for BMW: https://rideapart.com/articles/bmw-motorrad-reports-record-growth-bike-sales

Paul

Hats off to BMW and good for them!!  :thumb: :thumb: :1: :cool:
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Chesterfield on July 20, 2017, 03:32:34 PM
Hats off to BMW and good for them!!  :thumb: :thumb: :1: :cool:

You diversify to bikes riders want and they wii come it appears.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 20, 2017, 05:13:28 PM
You diversify to bikes riders want and they wii come it appears.

Perhaps, but it would be good to remember that BMW is still selling tens of thousands fewer units in a year, and is still far off from the peak Harley years of 300k+ bikes.

So even with their market contracting and their selling a less diverse portfolio they're still ahead, but who's to say for how much longer.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on July 20, 2017, 07:25:51 PM
Perhaps, but it would be good to ignore that BMW is still selling tens of thousands fewer units in a year, and is Afton far off from the peak Harley years of 300k+ bikes.

So even with their market contracting and selling a less diverse portfolio they're still ahead, but who's to say for how much longer.

It's all about capturing market share. You gain share by producing products  that interest the public and feed there dreams.... not many new riders dream of  being a pirate these days. There more sifisticted, seek adventure, and embrace technology. Just my thoughts..... :popcorn:

Paul
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 21, 2017, 06:27:33 AM
It's all about capturing market share. You gain share by producing products  that interest the public and feed there dreams.... not many new riders dream of  being a pirate these days. There more sifisticted, seek adventure, and embrace technology. Just my thoughts..... :popcorn:

Paul
"not many" yet Harley, even with a decline in sales still holds 50% of the US street bike market, and similar products from Indian, Triumph, JAPanInc, and yes, even Guzzi make up a not insignificant additional percentage of sales.

So the MAJORITY still prioritize classic/standard cruiser/tourer motorcycles.

And this "technology" thing always makes me laugh. With the possible exception of BMW there's not much technology on other brands that you don't find on Harleys. But Harley has always prioritized the desired functions of their customers and made it seamless.

* EFI since the early 90's that runs basically flawlessly. No pinging (Breva 1100), no mysterious cold idle stumbles/low speed surging (1TB smallblocks).

* Maintenance free valve trains that work! No complete failure of hydraulic valve trains, no flat tappet motors that way themselves.

* Keyless security systems for more than a decade that don't mysteriously strand the bike (Cali 1400). And if there is a problem you can enter a personal code to disable it.

* Keyless ignition on some models with the security system.

* EFI trouble codes that display through the dash.

* ABS

No most aren't water cooled, OHC, but that's not what most people want or need anyway and it's hardly cutting edge "technology"

And no they don't have multi-mapping, TC (yet), tire pressure sensors, electronic suspension or windshield adjustments. But then again, neither do the vast majority of other bikes on the market today.





Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on July 21, 2017, 09:01:11 AM
 Yeah , but they are just so boring and gauche  :evil:

 Dusty
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 21, 2017, 09:18:32 AM
Nothing else matters except "the declining sales" and the declining stock price which is down $8/share (15%) in one month.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: John Ulrich on July 21, 2017, 10:36:44 AM
I remember hearing about some dealers who wouldn't sell out of their "territory", trying to ensure service customers, I guess.  However, I have not ever had an HD dealer tell me they wouldn't sell to me because I wasn't local.

Remember a number of years back when Guzzi corporate tried that?  Jim at Ned's (Iowa) would be penalized a few dollars if he sold to a customer in Chicago.  I believe it was brought about by the Calif dealer who was selling dealer returned Guzzi's dirt cheap nationwide and the other dealers got hung with fixing them.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: canuck750 on July 21, 2017, 01:35:39 PM
I do have to hand it to BMW for their willingness to expand into different sectors. For decades BMW were the old man's bike, dependable, high build quality, comfort, sporting... not.

The S1000RR and R model are pretty high spec performance bikes, there is a broad range of 800 cc bikes and the new entry level G310R and G310GS are good move for attracting new buyers. The traditional boxer range covers the full spectrum of sporting, tour and classics and the big touring K range has the power and luxury boxes filled and the K1600B is a nod to the cruiser buyer. I even like the C650GT urban scooter for its styling if nothing else.

The K1600GTL is priced very close to a HD Electra Glide Ultra Classic. The K bike has a lot more tech, is it all necessary?? well it didn't cost me any more than the Ultra and the K has a lot more power, weighs over a 100lbs less and is turbine smooth up to the point of loosing my licence.

Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 21, 2017, 02:05:56 PM
I do have to hand it to BMW for their willingness to expand into different sectors.

Agreed  :thumb:


The K1600GTL is priced very close to a HD Electra Glide Ultra Classic. The K bike has a lot more tech, is it all necessary?? well it didn't cost me any more than the Ultra and the K has a lot more power, weighs over a 100lbs less and is turbine smooth up to the point of loosing my licence.

My loaded Jeep JKU Wrangler was within $50.00 of a loaded Focus RS. Both have very different levels of power and tech.

Different horses for different courses.

I wouldn't look twice at a K-bike, and that's been true for decades for me.

Similarly as I believe I already said, my new RK was just CHEAPER than a new Guzzi Eldorado with a lot more gear (windshield, bags, passing lamps, front and rear crash bars etc., and it was thousands cheaper than a Cali 1400T with that gear), but that's not why I bought the RK, I bought it because it was the right flavor and features for ME. I'd have spent more for the Eldo if that's what I wanted.

Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: moltoguzzi on July 21, 2017, 02:51:54 PM
My nephew the Harley salesman tells me that the MoCo is concerned . He bases this on the communication between the MoCo and the very large corporate dealership where he works . The dealership is getting pressure to "do something" because sales and overall market share are on the decline . Like Sears or K Mart , once a huge company begins to contract it can be tough to find equilibrium . HD rode the wave successfully for many years , but that wave may be dying on the shores of a shrinking market , and an unwillingness to look far enough into the future .

 Dusty

 PS . One thing my nephew has told me is that in his dealership sales of Motor Clothes have declined , T shirts and doo rag sales ain't what they used to be .
Spoke with a corporate rep at Wilkins HD in Vermont and he stated that HD will release 100 new models in the next 5 years to accommodate changing demographics. I asked if the new motor will be in the Dyna line next year he stated it may be a few years but had no official answer.
Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: oldbike54 on July 21, 2017, 03:07:51 PM
Spoke with a corporate rep at Wilkins HD in Vermont and he stated that HD will release 100 new models in the next 5 years to accommodate changing demographics. I asked if the new motor will be in the Dyna line next year he stated it may be a few years but had no official answer.

 Kinda makes one wonder how many different Sportsters will be on sale . The Sportster Low , the Sportster Tall , the Sportster Denim , The Sportster Dark , the Sportster Bulldog  :shocked: It's funny, some of the guys on a Harley forum are already saying there are too many models .

 Dusty
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: bad Chad on July 21, 2017, 03:18:49 PM
There is no way on Earth they could release a 100 new models over 5 years!  20 a year, come on!!
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: John Ulrich on July 21, 2017, 03:29:21 PM
There is no way on Earth they could release a 100 new models over 5 years!  20 a year, come on!!

There counting new paint job's on existing models with a fender swap   :wink:
Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: TimmyTheHog on July 21, 2017, 03:31:50 PM
Kinda makes one wonder how many different Sportsters will be on sale . The Sportster Low , the Sportster Tall , the Sportster Denim , The Sportster Dark , the Sportster Bulldog  :shocked: It's funny, some of the guys on a Harley forum are already saying there are too many models .

 Dusty

PERSONALLY, I too feel there are too many models, but not enough diversity in terms of usage of the bike.

Doesn't matter how many models HD has, they are MAJORITY cruisers...touring or street

Now I am not saying to just dive right into the ADV, Sports, and even classic bike division, but come on, at least give us some thing that the rest of the non-cruiser dudes can chew on instead of ALMOST the same model with minor fairing/handle bar changes and call itself a whole other model...

This is where BMW excels and probably why the sales went up although they too cost like a freaking gold brick.

Anyway, that is my own personal opinion.

There counting new paint job's on existing models with a fender swap   :wink:

exactly what I feel when every time HD comes out with another "model"...

Edit: Stupid auto correct and stupid grammar...blah
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: rocker59 on July 21, 2017, 03:35:55 PM
There counting new paint job's on existing models with a fender swap   :wink:

Unfortunately, Indian seems to have stolen a copy of the H-D playbook.

The third Scout model has been announced this week.  "Scout Bobber".

(http://motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/071417-Indian-Scout-Bobber-01-633x388.jpg)

Yep, you guessed it.  Fender swap and new paint colors.

Geez, Louise...   :undecided:

http://www.bikeexif.com/2018-indian-scout-bobber-review

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/2018-indian-scout-bobber-first-ride

I want to like the Indian Scout, but until they have a factory "Sport Scout", I'll be watching from afar...

Because I just don't "get it". 
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on July 21, 2017, 03:44:20 PM
......
....
..
..

And no they don't have multi-mapping, TC (yet), tire pressure sensors, electronic suspension or windshield adjustments. But then again, neither do the vast majority of other bikes on the market today.
H-D does have one feature I believe to be unique to the marque, the ability to shut down the rear cylinder to prevent catastrophic failure due to overheating, KEWL!!!    :huh:

H-D provides the technology their customers want, but those are the die hard/ride hard/live hard fan boy customers over 50 years old, they do nothing for the young rider and the experienced rider that embrace technology, hence dwindling sales. There is just not much of a market for sun dials today, time marches on, and H-D is being left behind.

I owned a 1st year EFI H-D and fueling was bad, real bad, shop couldn't fix it and H-D factory rep couldn't fix it. The lady in my life owned a H-D dealership. her customers with EFI units were not nappy and she was not happy, either was I.  A coupe of years later they switched to the Delphi system and all was well..... except for the cam bearings but that's another story.  :violent1:

Paul
Paul
Title: Re: Is this the end?
Post by: redrider90 on July 21, 2017, 03:55:10 PM
s
Spoke with a corporate rep at Wilkins HD in Vermont and he stated that HD will release 100 new models in the next 5 years to accommodate changing demographics. I asked if the new motor will be in the Dyna line next year he stated it may be a few years but had no official answer.

See this website
https://www.statista.com/statistics/606311/motorcycle-sales-projection-globally-by-region/
with a very interesting graph "Projected motorcycle sales worldwide in 2018, by major region (in 1,000 units)"
Global motorcycle sales - forecast by region 2018
Asia Pacific.                        108,800
Africa and Middle.                 10,100
Central and South America    8,125
Western Europe                    3,030
North American                     1930
Eastern Europe                        414

Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 21, 2017, 04:22:05 PM
There is no way on Earth they could release a 100 new models over 5 years!  20 a year, come on!!
Harley's definition of "models" has always been paint and badges. So I'm sure they'll hit 100, the question is will they be different enough to expand demographics.

My guess is most won't.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 21, 2017, 04:26:29 PM
H-D does have one feature I believe to be unique to the marque, the ability to shut down the rear cylinder to prevent catastrophic failure due to overheating, KEWL!!!    :huh:

H-D provides the technology their customers want, but those are the die hard/ride hard/live hard fan boy customers over 50 years old, they do nothing for the young rider and the experienced rider that embrace technology, hence dwindling sales. There is just not much of a market for sun dials today, time marches on, and H-D is being left behind.

I owned a 1st year EFI H-D and fueling was bad, real bad, shop couldn't fix it and H-D factory rep couldn't fix it. The lady in my life owned a H-D dealership. her customers with EFI units were not nappy and she was not happy, either was I.  A coupe of years later they switched to the Delphi system and all was well..... except for the cam bearings but that's another story.  :violent1:

Paul
Paul
The rear cylinder can shut down for comfort. That's actually clever and has nothing to do with failure that any air-cooled motor wouldn't benefit from because it only happens at idle.

I had a first year EFI RK (Weber-Marelli) and put 65k miles on it in a little over 2 years, fueling was flawless but then I ran stock pipes.

Yeah they had a few bad cam bearings the FIRST year of the TC, but they fixed it and fast. Can't really say that about Guzzi's valve train f-ups in the last decade or so.

Edit - oh and technology and demographics, you'd be surprised how many younger riders want simple not more complicated. Sportsters are pretty popular with the younger demographics.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Frulk on July 21, 2017, 07:57:04 PM
When they DO make it we don't buy it...

(http://i.imgur.com/NQVRKXx.jpg)
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 21, 2017, 08:58:51 PM
When they DO make it we don't buy it...

(http://i.imgur.com/NQVRKXx.jpg)
Yup and I expect the Roadster will soon follow suit.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: cruzziguzzi on July 21, 2017, 11:01:29 PM
I didn't see it above - are the new little HD water-pumpers doing any good in sales?




Todd.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 21, 2017, 11:54:09 PM
Unfortunately they don't report sales of them separately from the Sportsters so no one outside of HD knows for sure.

My instinct is they are a small minority for now.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: cruzziguzzi on July 22, 2017, 11:18:12 AM
Indian seems to have stolen a copy of the H-D playbook.

(http://motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/071417-Indian-Scout-Bobber-01-633x388.jpg)


I want to like the Indian Scout, but until they have a factory "Sport Scout", I'll be watching from afar...


And a touch of Confederate as well, it would seem.

"Sport Scout"? Yes Please!

Todd.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: roadscum on July 22, 2017, 04:23:38 PM
When they DO make it we don't buy it...

(http://i.imgur.com/NQVRKXx.jpg)

Yes indeed. I shopped that before buying the Guzzi 1200 Sport, it just didn't ring my bell. Seemed like a clunky lead sled in when compared to the Guzzi. I bought the Guzzi as a 1 year olds left over from a dealer that had acquired many eft overs as part of a deal with Guzzi USA. Paid only $8K for it.

Paul
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Arizona Wayne on July 22, 2017, 07:47:54 PM
I remember when Victory came out with a somewhat sporty looking mode that was either orange or red color.  Only thing is it had 0 ground clearance and was a loser.  I rode a 92C once an ex Guzzi rider bought instead and was impressed with it's handling, braking.  :huh:
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: canuck750 on July 22, 2017, 10:19:43 PM
This is the German Electra Glide I picked up this week, 3500 KM, the original owner was 5'-5" tall, he couldn't get his feet on the ground and dropped it in his parking lot, one scuff on a bag. It scared him so he reluctantly let it go he has two Harley cruisers, short seat and he can ride them with confidence.

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/IMG_1199_zpsygr0hxni.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/IMG_1199_zpsygr0hxni.jpg.html)

I took it out for my 1st ride today, about 200 miles, all backroad 2 lane county riding, mostly empty roads, cruised effortlessly a 140 km/hr, 3650 rpm, 52 mpg. It runs out of steam around 220 km/hr, may have had more but my courage stopped around there. It feels lighter and much more stable than the R1150RT I just sold. Dropping down from 6th to 5th and cracking the throttle and at 140 km/hr it just snaps forward and hits 200 in a few seconds.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 23, 2017, 08:06:11 AM
This is the German Electra Glide I picked up this week, 3500 KM, the original owner was 5'-5" tall, he couldn't get his feet on the ground and dropped it in his parking lot, one scuff on a bag. It scared him so he reluctantly let it go he has two Harley cruisers, short seat and he can ride them with confidence.

(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/IMG_1199_zpsygr0hxni.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/IMG_1199_zpsygr0hxni.jpg.html)

I took it out for my 1st ride today, about 200 miles, all backroad 2 lane county riding, mostly empty roads, cruised effortlessly a 140 km/hr, 3650 rpm, 52 mpg. It runs out of steam around 220 km/hr, may have had more but my courage stopped around there. It feels lighter and much more stable than the R1150RT I just sold. Dropping down from 6th to 5th and cracking the throttle and at 140 km/hr it just snaps forward and hits 200 in a few seconds.
Nice bike, best of luck with it. Last thing I rode even remotely close to that was probably a press RT, and that was already too much plastic for me. But it was fast, comfortable, capable etc.

In maybe complete contrast here's the exact other end of the segment of bikes marketed as "Tourers"

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170723/e6e45307573393b34d2bb48466278b0f.jpg)

1.7L (103 Cu In), 800# wet, air-cooled, 2V/cylinder pushrod/hyd lifter motor, 6 gallon tank, detachable windshield, Brembo ABS, RBW, cruise but otherwise a simple/basic machine.

It will cruise all day at 75-95 mph and return only about 40 mpg (though slow things down to secondary roads and you'll see at least mid 40's).

Range to empty display in the ODO will start in the 221-250 mile range depending on previous fill-up and efficiency, but you'll easily get 200+ miles from the tank (usually before the low fuel light comes on) in comfort to ride it through if you like.

Maintenance is basically an oil and filter change, maybe check belt tension. Transmission fluid and primary chain fluids are much longer intervals (and primary chain has an auto tensioner so no checks/adjustments there).

The biggest thing for me is that this bike is just as comfortable on secondary roads from 40-60 mph as it on the highway. And though it's more tempting than any Harley I've ridden before to keep passing on the highway it's just as easy to move to the right and let others be in a rush.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170723/95809e48839e72166745a7ec2b0c0511.jpg)

Now sure, not everyone wants to travel that way, but I learned riding Harleys in the 90's that it can be a very nice way to approach a bike trip. Back then my BMW Oilhead always made me feel like I had to pass the next guy in search of open roads that never came (cause there was always someone else to pass). For me riding like that leads to faster and faster speeds with less and less relaxation. So moving over and letting other people be in a rush can be really nice sometimes.

Handling on the RK is surprisingly nimble and with a Sportster or V7 in the garage to compliment it I want for nothing.

I completely understand why some prefer the style or performance of Sport or Sport Touring bikes, but having owned a number and ridden even more I realize that I prefer a standard/classic/tourer.

I don't use the word cruiser because to me that means (and I realize it's a very large percentage of Harley products) a bike that compromises function for form even more than this (greatly limiting lean angle, seat height/size, control placement etc.). That's a bridge too far for me and it doesn't offer me what I want, but I don't begrudge those who do.

This bike has all the brakes, all the suspension, all the power, and yes even all the lean angle (little more than 32 each direction) I need, with excellent ergonomics, lights, features. It's very functional yet still relatively "basic."

Similarly my Jeep Wrangler JKU has heated leather, premium sound/NAV, automatic headlights, but it's also got a 6-spd, LSD, etc. It'll never be a BMW or Range Rover, or hell it'll never even be my wife's Grand Cherokee with memory seats tied to keyless ignition, auto-leveling/self-dimming HID's, self leveling suspension, automatic rain-sensing wipers etc.

But that's exactly why I bought the Wrangler. 

And that's exactly why I bought the RK.

It's a balance of form, function, and feel.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: jas67 on July 23, 2017, 09:27:07 AM
I've ridden the current BMW R1200RT.    I found it to be a very competent performer, though, fairly top heavy at stops.    I could've ridden the K1600GTL at that demo day too, but, just sitting on it and stand it off the side stand, it felt like it weighed more like 900# than 700#.     I wasn't interested.   I'm sure it's performance would be too tempting.   Having ridden the S1000R and S1000XR, I can definitely say that those two bikes would result in loss of license or worse, life.    I'd think that, at least for me,  the K1600GTL is just a bigger, heavier version of that.   I'm also a twin guy, so, if I were to buy a BMW tourer, I prefer the character of the boxer twin.   I very much enjoyed the R1200RS that I demoed.

By contrast, I recently had the opportunity to put some miles on Kev's police Road King.   Now, I've always been in the "I'll never want a Harley camp."     But, I have to admit, I was quite pleased with the RK.    It was WAY easier to stand up off the side stand than the K1600GTL, and also easier than the R1200RT.    The Police RK has running boards at a position I found comfortable, and the police solo seat is somewhat higher than a standard RK, making the ergos quite "standard", and not like the typical feat forward egos you usually see going down the road.

The stock exhaust sounds great.   It has a nice growl under acceleration, and a muted, pleasant rumble going under way.    All the sounds this bike makes are very pleasant, not intrusive like the plethora of "Screaming Eagle" or Vance & Hinds equipped Harleys on the road.

Power, handling, and braking are all better than I expected of a 800 + lbs beast.    While this wouldn't be my first choice for "The Dragon", or any other very twisty road, it was a fantastic mount for a day of riding through the Pine Barrens of NJ.

Because it was a hot and humid day, we had the quick-detach windshield off for the day.    Airflow was quite clean.    At 70+ MPH, you can feel the wind blast, so, I'd want at least a small windshield for highway riding, but, without the windshield speeds up to 60-65 were fine.

The thing that struck me the most about this bike, was, that, as Kev also mentions above, in huge contrast to bikes like the Breva 1100 I used to own, Ducati Monster 796 and BMW F800GT that I currently have, I'm perfectly content to lope along at 50-55 MPH with traffic.    It has plenty of power to pass, but, you don't need to.

I came away from the experience with a very different attitude toward The Motor Company's products.    While I'd never own one of big twins with the huge fairing, fixed or handle-bar mounted, I could definitely see having a Road King in the fleet.

Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on July 23, 2017, 09:46:18 AM
 Hmm , my perception of the RT and modern FL series bikes is different . I found the RT to be like a ballerina , even at low speeds compared to the HD which felt heavy and sluggish , giving a feeling of being disconnected from the bike . Maybe we have different gravity in Oklahoma , dunno .

 Dusty
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 23, 2017, 09:56:24 AM
Hmm , my perception of the RT and modern FL series bikes is different . I found the RT to be like a ballerina , even at low speeds compared to the HD which felt heavy and sluggish , giving a feeling of being disconnected from the bike . Maybe we have different gravity in Oklahoma , dunno .

 Dusty
Sarcasm aside the problem with subjective comparisons are that the are subjective.

Differences in physical size and strength, riding technique, expectations, and perspectives means we likely all "feel" differently about these things.

That said considering the reverse triple-trees on the FL I'm always surprised when someone doesn't "feel" the surprising nimbleness of the chassis underway, even at low speeds.

And comparing the overall center of gravity on Harleys in general vs the usually lighter but taller bikes I've owned and ridden from Oilheads and Guzzis to Triumphs and JAPanInc's products I've often found the lighter weight of the latter products was hidden by the taller center of gravity. Sometimes so much so they felt heavier than the actually heavier Harley in many circumstances.

YMMV, then that's the whole point of this post and this thread.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: cruzziguzzi on July 23, 2017, 10:05:16 AM
Looking at Kev'um's white bike and the thread title got me to thinking....

I wonder if the failing numbers will lead to me scoring a brand-new, white, Cop Dyna at a "deal"?

I've always thought that one of those could be my last-new-street bike.



Todd.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: JJ on July 23, 2017, 10:34:34 AM
Unfortunately, Indian seems to have stolen a copy of the H-D playbook.

The third Scout model has been announced this week.  "Scout Bobber".

(http://motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/071417-Indian-Scout-Bobber-01-633x388.jpg)

Yep, you guessed it.  Fender swap and new paint colors.

Geez, Louise...   :undecided:

http://www.bikeexif.com/2018-indian-scout-bobber-review

http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/2018-indian-scout-bobber-first-ride

I want to like the Indian Scout, but until they have a factory "Sport Scout", I'll be watching from afar...

Because I just don't "get it".

If I ever win the LOTTERY, this is one of the vintage bikes I would seriously consider: 

1937 Indian Sport Scout  :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :1: :cool:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/eDUFek/Screen_Shot_2017_07_23_at_8_31_39_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/eDUFek)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/iwdxs5/Screen_Shot_2017_07_23_at_8_31_47_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/iwdxs5)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/kumvek/Screen_Shot_2017_07_23_at_8_31_55_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/kumvek)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/h5YK5Q/Screen_Shot_2017_07_23_at_8_32_06_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/h5YK5Q)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/kp88zk/Screen_Shot_2017_07_23_at_8_32_16_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/kp88zk)

bbcode link image (http://imgbb.com/)
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: JJ on July 23, 2017, 10:46:53 AM
A "restored" 1937 Indian Sport Scout today will set you back approx. $28,000-$35,000...or you can opt for this:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/by68X5/Screen_Shot_2017_07_23_at_8_44_15_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/by68X5)

upload album online (http://imgbb.com/)


Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 23, 2017, 10:54:33 AM
I thought the whole point of this thread is in the OP's 1st post when he linked From Reuters "Harley-Davidson cuts shipments forecast; shares skid."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-harley-davidson-results-idUSKBN1A3126
Even the name of the thread of is "The MoCo is falling" is about the business model and not the egos and "subjective views" of the RK or other behemoths they make.

Does "shares skid" mean HOG is in a low side slide? March 13 HOG= $62.25/share: July 21st $48.26. Down $14.share in 4 months  And that drops includes an 8% growth in overseas market. OUCH.
Me thinks "The Street" thinks HOG is not performing so well.   Meanwhile HOG  Meanwhile Honda sold 17 million units worldwide 2016 to HOG's 260,269 units. I'd never own a Honda (my Grandmother said that about Ford but then in 1953 she won a Ford Crown Vic and kept it  :grin:).
But Honda  does something the MoCo has no grasp of and that is cover ALL demographics that appear to all segments of the planet.
HOG truly is going to need to roll off 100 new models and fast to compete with Honda.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: jas67 on July 23, 2017, 11:02:38 AM
A "restored" 1937 Indian Sport Scout today will set you back approx. $28,000-$35,000...or you can opt for this:


(http://thumb.ibb.co/by68X5/Screen_Shot_2017_07_23_at_8_44_15_AM.png) (http://ibb.co/by68X5)

upload album online (http://imgbb.com/)


I love the paint job on that!

But, to get the ergos I'd want, I'd want the pegs further back, and a springer seat similar to this, but, mounted several inches higher:
(https://www.revzilla.com/product_images/0205/5441/klock_werks_klassic_solo_seat_pan_kit_for_indian_scout20152016_brown_detail.jpg)

Solo seats on a /2 BMW illustrate what I'd be going after:
(http://onlymotorbikes.com/public/02/bmw-r602-1967-moto.jpeg)

Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on July 23, 2017, 11:03:01 AM
 Actually I changed the thread title after merging 3 separate threads together that were about the same subject . The new title was really meant to be a bit humorous , and not any prediction of what was gonna happen to the MoCo . They build nothing that blows my dress up , but they will probably survive , at least for another couple of years  :evil:

 Dusty
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: jas67 on July 23, 2017, 11:07:31 AM
Hmm , my perception of the RT and modern FL series bikes is different . I found the RT to be like a ballerina , even at low speeds compared to the HD which felt heavy and sluggish , giving a feeling of being disconnected from the bike . Maybe we have different gravity in Oklahoma , dunno .

 Dusty

No doubt, the RT is like a ballerina at speed, and indeed a friend of mine, who recently trade is 2013 RT on a 2017 GS, illustrated this quite well, as he is amazingly fast in the twisties.   BUT, in the parking lot, the much heavier Road King feels as light TO ME.

That said, I'd definitely choose the R1200RS over the R1200RT.   

Different bikes for different riding.  That's why so many of us have multiple bikes.
My '74 Eldorado will serve the same purpose for me as the Road King, but, if I lived somewhere like Kev does, where the roads are mostly straight and flat, I could definitely see having a Road King in the garage.

And, while many people say, they don't want a Harley, because they want to be different, well, you can be different -- keep the stock pipes on it.    :evil:

Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 23, 2017, 11:36:14 AM


I thought the whole point of this thread is in the OP's 1st post when he linked From Reuters "Harley-Davidson cuts shipments forecast; shares skid."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-harley-davidson-results-idUSKBN1A3126
Even the name of the thread of is "The MoCo is falling" is about the business model and not the egos and "subjective views" of the RK or other behemoths they make.

Well then let me connect the dots.

The thread is about Harley's performance in the market and largely the discussion has been about demographics and the desires of riders.

This of where the subjective feel and relative performance of a KLT/KGT vs an FLH come into the discussion.

It's simply that different people WANT different things.

Honda's units are huge worldwide, but they're about as relevent to Harley as most of Polaris' numbers (which are ATV's/side-by-sides/snowmobiles).

Should Harley expand their demographics. The answer is it depends on the goal.

As a publicly traded company they need to grow so that's probably the best answer.

But that doesn't mean they need to abandon everything they are and are doing now.

Differences exist between an FLH and BMW for a reason. Not everyone wants a BMW. Hell, most people don't.

So the differences, real or subjective are part of the discussion.

At least that's how I see the evolution of the discussion and the answer to the original question.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: SmokinJoe on July 23, 2017, 01:04:57 PM

(http://thumb.ibb.co/cn6H9k/2016_09_29_11_33_00_551.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cn6H9k)
  Sometimes we do buy what they make when it hits our niche. I bought the ev 1100
(http://thumb.ibb.co/fq8iFQ/2017_03_19_19_35_33_478.jpg) (http://ibb.co/fq8iFQ)

(http://thumb.ibb.co/cKJiFQ/2016_10_05_14_50_34_449.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cKJiFQ)

temporary hosting photo (http://imgbb.com/)
cal tour because it was what I wanted for two up trips and the KLR 650 and sportster roadster because they suited my needs. Now it's hard to afford three bikes with the med bills. But I rarely travel by 4 wheels and many years since by air so motorcycle is my choice as long as possible.
   I think the real problem for motorcycle companies in general is most people just don't want to be the least bit uncomfortable even if it results in them being less and less connected to the real world they live in. They don't even want to drive the car they're sitting in, it should just take them where they want to go and not interrupt their electronic communications. So as market shares shrink the fight for what is selling vs what direction product mfg should take is critical. The Indian Scout just won't work for me for any travel, most of the sportster competition won't either. I cover 600-700 miles per day on the sportster or KLR  and that's about all my body can handle on anything, even in a car.
The Guzzi is something I can live with too but on long trips around the country with uncertain service it's harder to keep going if something happens. So it's all a trade off. That still leaves HD in a good spot if they make the right choices for their market over the next 5 years.
Joe
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 23, 2017, 03:07:13 PM
 That still leaves HD in a good spot if they make the right choices for their market over the next 5 years.
Joe
[/quote]

I have always viewed these discussions about Harley as a business model. HOG should have had made "the right choices" years ago. They have lived off their demographics too long and meanwhile much of the MC industry has tooled up and are already making bikes where the market is going to grow the most and that is in Asia Pacific region and the African continent. Harley's  growth overseas is in the cruiser line but much of the future  is going to be smaller bikes and scooters in high density population areas of Asia and the vast poor expanses of the African continent. Where does Harley have bikes for 3rd world countries with large populations that cannot afford much less desire a cruiser or even a sportster? In the last 18 months much of the financial pages about HOG have been writing what I believe is the epitaph of the demise of the company. "Too little to late". HD is not in a good spot with the US market share shrinking fast, their clothing line also shrinking and no new bikes for the masses. How much growth can they squeeze from overseas will be interesting. 
Kev M says "Should Harley expand their demographics. The answer is it depends on the goal."
Their goal as a publicly traded company is to grow and increase returns for the stockholders. From my perspective they are underperforming and their stock price reflects it.
Connect the dots? I say the bottom line is all that matters for survival.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 23, 2017, 04:18:16 PM

Quote from: Kev m on Today at 11:36:14 AM (http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=91314.msg1443141#msg1443141)

Honda's units are huge worldwide, but they're about as relevent to Harley as most of Polaris' numbers (which are ATV's/side-by-sides/snowmobiles).




Honda total 17 million motorcycle units per year are very relevant to Harley's 250,000 worldwide units per year. Honda sucks the air out of the Motorcycle industry. And if HOG plans on making 50 new models they are going to have to go up against Honda and for that matter a whole lot of 300-500cc motorcycle brands. That is where the meat of growth is going to happen. 
 Polaris isn't even in the picture. M/Cs only represent 13% of Polaris total income. Polaris is not even a motorcycle company by any standard.
 
From this article of 300-500 cc motorcycles Harley does not even have one MC to compete in this line. And Honda isn't even mentioned in the top 7 for 2016.
Top 7 Upcoming 300-500cc Bikes of 2016
https://auto.ndtv.com/news/top-7-300-500cc-bikes-expected-in-2016-1260598 (https://auto.ndtv.com/news/top-7-300-500cc-bikes-expected-in-2016-1260598)
Where is HD?
https://www.bikewale.com/news/26413-top-6-motorcycle-updates-for-2017.htmlTop (https://www.bikewale.com/news/26413-top-6-motorcycle-updates-for-2017.htmlTop)
Top 6 motorcycle updates for 2017
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: ScepticalScotty on July 23, 2017, 05:20:02 PM
I think the last post illustrates a critical point - I think HD do "thier thing" very well and if you like that kind of thing, thats what you like. But if they were to truly expand outside their base, they would be playing with the big boys of sports/adventure/commuter motorcycles and it would be tough for them. The last time a HD was a cutting edge high performance motorcycle was prior to the Featherbed Manx Nortons (which were banned by the AMA....).
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 23, 2017, 06:47:07 PM
I think we're talking around the same issue from different perspectives.

I still say Honda means very little to Harley because Harley isn't going to overnight compete in 20 new market segments.

Yes if Harley is to grow they need to expand into new segments which will mean competing with Honda or JAPanInc or other brands.

But they don't have to compete in every segment right away.

And Scotty, for the umpteenth time it's not about "cutting edge technology" except for in maybe one or two of those 20 agreements (really only Sportbikes). Certainly the 300-500cc segment isn't about high tech bikes.

Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 23, 2017, 09:42:45 PM
KTM 390 Duke with a single cylinder 373ccs,  40 ponies at 9000 RPMS comes in at 360# wet at $5200.  A great city bike that can handle 80 MPH all day and handles like a dream. I am ready to buy one just for the fun of it. And as for high tech it this review says KTM has its share of it.
 http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/ktm/2017-ktm-390-duke-review.html


"Riding the 390 Duke is almost completely delightful. Clutch effort is light, the engine pulls cleanly from low revs, and gearshifts are light. The clutch�s slipper function makes ill-timed or aggressive downshifts nearly foolproof. The Duke excels at squirting through the tight confines of urban traffic, and it has plenty enough power to cruise at 80-per while its counterbalanced engine keeps vibration levels from becoming oppressive. Carving a twisty road is a riot, with responsive steering enabling changes of direction quicker than a border collie while maintaining the stability of a basset hound. It�s truly a wonderful backroad scratcher that flatters its rider.
But you�ve got to look pretty damn closely to find fault with the new 390 Duke. It�s almost as if KTM took to heart the nits we had to pick with the previous version and refined one of our favorite small-displacement roadsters of all time into something almost debonair, which is quite a feat for a motorcycle that retails for just $5,299. The little Duke has earned the first perfect 10 score I�ve awarded in our Value category."
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 24, 2017, 06:03:25 AM
KTM 390 Duke with a single cylinder 373ccs,  40 ponies at 9000 RPMS comes in at 360# wet at $5200.  A great city bike that can handle 80 MPH all day and handles like a dream. I am ready to buy one just for the fun of it. And as for high tech it this review says KTM has its share of it.
 http://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/ktm/2017-ktm-390-duke-review.html


"Riding the 390 Duke is almost completely delightful. Clutch effort is light, the engine pulls cleanly from low revs, and gearshifts are light. The clutch�s slipper function makes ill-timed or aggressive downshifts nearly foolproof. The Duke excels at squirting through the tight confines of urban traffic, and it has plenty enough power to cruise at 80-per while its counterbalanced engine keeps vibration levels from becoming oppressive. Carving a twisty road is a riot, with responsive steering enabling changes of direction quicker than a border collie while maintaining the stability of a basset hound. It�s truly a wonderful backroad scratcher that flatters its rider.
But you�ve got to look pretty damn closely to find fault with the new 390 Duke. It�s almost as if KTM took to heart the nits we had to pick with the previous version and refined one of our favorite small-displacement roadsters of all time into something almost debonair, which is quite a feat for a motorcycle that retails for just $5,299. The little Duke has earned the first perfect 10 score I�ve awarded in our Value category."
I'm starting to think no one understands "cutting edge" technology. What's cutting edge, the DASH?

There are no state secrets in the tech as far as I can tell from the article, slipper clutch (old), RBW (old), ABS (old), what's cutting edge?

Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on July 24, 2017, 08:52:45 AM
 The MoCo certainly doesn't .

 Dusty
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 24, 2017, 09:15:55 AM
I'm starting to think no one understands "cutting edge" technology. What's cutting edge, the DASH?

There are no state secrets in the tech as far as I can tell from the article, slipper clutch (old), RBW (old), ABS (old), what's cutting edge?

You quoted me but I did not use "cutting edge" I said high tech which is quite different in its meaning. Sounds like you are having a battle of words with yourself as you used the phrase "cutting edge". Fact is this is bike for all of its 373 ccs has a bit of technology built into it. I put it up there as a bike that HOG is going to have to compete with and or surpass if it wants a slice of that ever growing 300-500cc market. I posted links to another dozen bikes in the same class all with good reviews. Again the context of my posting those bikes was about the future of the growth sector in Asia and Africa and how many companies are already ahead of HOG and are producing these bikes. HOG is at best on the drawing board:  that is if they are planning on getting into that market. And if the are not going into that market they are ignoring the majority of the growth in the MC industry.
It's amazing you can cry about "cutting edge" on a bike this review said 'The little Duke has earned the first perfect 10 score I�ve awarded in our Value category."
Perfect 10 in value (not necessarily cutting edge) is what it is going to sell MC to that market.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 24, 2017, 09:37:46 AM
You quoted me but I did not use "cutting edge" I said high tech which is quite different in its meaning. Sounds like you are having a battle of words with yourself as you used the phrase "cutting edge". Fact is this is bike for all of its 373 ccs has a bit of technology built into it. I put it up there as a bike that HOG is going to have to compete with and or surpass if it wants a slice of that ever growing 300-500cc market. I posted links to another dozen bikes in the same class all with good reviews. Again the context of my posting those bikes was about the future of the growth sector in Asia and Africa and how many companies are already ahead of HOG and are producing these bikes. HOG is at best on the drawing board:  that is if they are planning on getting into that market. And if the are not going into that market they are ignoring the majority of the growth in the MC industry.

I'm responding to you and scotty, and others in this thread who as a whole seem to put forth this concept that technology is somehow escaping Harley or beyond their grasp. The KTM is an example of a segment of bike that is growing for sure, and if Harley decides to compete in that segment they'll certainly need to do some things differently. But we don't know that's the direction they will take so it seems silly to hold it as some sacred cow in this discussion of technology, especially since there's nothing that Harley or any other manufacturer couldn't decide to use on a new platform.

I really have no dog in this hunt other than dispelling some mis-perceptions about the current product and what "technology" means to them or possible future products.

Bottom line the vast majority of motorcycles sold worldwide, including by Honda, doesn't employ a lot of tech that isn't available to all the OEMS. And frankly, the vast majority doesn't use all that much tech, new leading products like the KTM being an example, and maybe a smart example of how OEMs might be able to attract the "tech" obsessed younger generations.

Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 24, 2017, 09:47:19 AM
I'm responding to you and scotty, and others in this thread who as a whole seem to put forth this concept that technology is somehow escaping Harley or beyond their grasp. The KTM is an example of a segment of bike that is growing for sure, and if Harley decides to compete in that segment they'll certainly need to do some things differently. But we don't know that's the direction they will take so it seems silly to hold it as some sacred cow in this discussion of technology, especially since there's nothing that Harley or any other manufacturer couldn't decide to use on a new platform.

I really have no dog in this hunt other than dispelling some mis-perceptions about the current product and what "technology" means to them or possible future products.

 
Bottom line the vast majority of motorcycles sold worldwide, including by Honda, doesn't employ a lot of tech that isn't available to all the OEMS. And frankly, the vast majority doesn't use all that much tech, new leading products like the KTM being an example, and maybe a smart example of how OEMs might be able to attract the "tech" obsessed younger generations.
There are no misperceptions on my part. I continue to beat the drum of business model and HOG is not in a market they should have been in years ago
.I never said technology was or is escaping HOG what I have said is HOG as a business model is not making motorcycles of any sort with any technology for the entry level largest growth market world wide. Technology be damned if you cannot put a bike in the showroom for someone to buy. With share prices off 15% in 4 months and growth in their biggest market declining they have to compete in areas they have never competed before. They just are not making the bikes where much of the world is buying. As a business model they are sliding and may be approaching a free fall. Meanwhile even BMW has jumped into the fray and is releasing it's first entry level  new 2018 BMW G 310 R - FIRST RIDE REVIEW ($4700)
https://auto.ndtv.com/news/top-7-300-500cc-bikes-expected-in-2016-1260598
Liquid cooled, 2 channel ABS and "The naked street G 310R is powered by a single-cylinder, liquid-cooled, fuel-injected 313cc engine, which makes 33.6bhp of power and 28Nm of torque. The unique feature of this engine is its architecture - with the cylinder tilted backward in open-deck design with the cylinder head turned 180 degrees. This is said to make the weight balanced With a counter balancer, expect a smooth, free revving engine. BMW claims a top speed of 145kmph and fuel efficiency of around 30-35kmpl." Hum maybe that is not "cutting edge technology" but it is darn sure better than anything HOG is producing.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/606311/motorcycle-sales-projection-globally-by-region/
with a very interesting graph "Projected motorcycle sales worldwide in 2018, by major region (in 1,000 units)"
Global motorcycle sales - forecast by region 2018
Asia Pacific.                        108,800
Africa and Middle.                 10,100
Central and South America    8,125
Western Europe                    3,030
North American                     1930
Eastern Europe                        414
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 24, 2017, 10:19:56 AM
There are no misperceptions on my part. I continue to beat the drum of business model and HOG is not in a market they should have been in years ago
.I never said technology was or is escaping HOG what I have said is HOG as a business model is not making motorcycles of any sort with any technology for the entry level largest growth market world wide. Technology be damned if you cannot put a bike in the showroom for someone to buy. With share prices off 15% in 4 months and growth in their biggest market declining they have to compete in areas they have never competed before. They just are not making the bikes where much of the world is buying. As a business model they are sliding and may be approaching a free fall. Meanwhile even BMW has jumped into the fray and is releasing it's first entry level  new 2018 BMW G 310 R - FIRST RIDE REVIEW ($4700)
https://auto.ndtv.com/news/top-7-300-500cc-bikes-expected-in-2016-1260598
Liquid cooled, 2 channel ABS and "The naked street G 310R is powered by a single-cylinder, liquid-cooled, fuel-injected 313cc engine, which makes 33.6bhp of power and 28Nm of torque. The unique feature of this engine is its architecture - with the cylinder tilted backward in open-deck design with the cylinder head turned 180 degrees. This is said to make the weight balanced With a counter balancer, expect a smooth, free revving engine. BMW claims a top speed of 145kmph and fuel efficiency of around 30-35kmpl." Hum maybe that is not "cutting edge technology" but it is darn sure better than anything HOG is producing.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/606311/motorcycle-sales-projection-globally-by-region/
with a very interesting graph "Projected motorcycle sales worldwide in 2018, by major region (in 1,000 units)"
Global motorcycle sales - forecast by region 2018
Asia Pacific.                        108,800
Africa and Middle.                 10,100
Central and South America    8,125
Western Europe                    3,030
North American                     1930
Eastern Europe                        414

I actually have no disagreement with anything here, or didn't until you used the term "better" which is too subjective and a bit silly when comparing an existing product to vapor ware since as you said Harley ISN'T in that market but should be.

I do wonder if they have more planned for the XG platform as that would seem to be their one attempt at an entry into the 500cc or under market. And certainly it was designed with the world market in mind way more than the US.

And if we're comparing THAT to the KTM or this new entry-level BMW, then yes, in typical Harley fashion they are not chasing the lowest weight, highest hp per CC, or any flashy "technology". Which leads to the next question, SHOULD THEY BE? Answer - it depends...



Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on July 24, 2017, 10:38:44 AM


                                              Introducing for 2018
                                                  The all new
                                              110 CI Vapor Glide

 Dusty
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 24, 2017, 10:42:58 AM
I actually have no disagreement with anything here, or didn't until you used the term "better" which is too subjective and a bit silly when comparing an existing product to vapor ware since as you said Harley ISN'T in that market but should be.

Sure you have a disagreement with me. You keep supporting a logic that HOG is in the picture when they are clearly clueless when it comes to survival.
So saying BMW's product is "better" than HOG's non existing product is "subjective and silly"? That's a good one Kev. I'll take it up a notch.  Seems to me that BMW's new G 310R as well as the KTM 390 Duke (and for that matter all the other new 300-500 cc bikes) are not only "better" but are light years ahead of HOG's entry level bike. "Subjective and Silly" is why the "Street" as in Wall Street is not so happy with HOG's performance in the market. HOG is behind the 8 ball and needs to get out there with something fast.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 24, 2017, 10:44:21 AM

                                              Introducing for 2018
                                                  The all new
                                              110 CI Vapor Glide

 Dusty

 :drool:
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: sidecarnutz on July 24, 2017, 11:01:09 AM
Even old Guzzis had cutting edge technology in them. I was helping a old friend rebuild a convert years ago and since the factory never deburred the castings on the transmission, it neatly sliced the back of my hand open exposing a tendon. I still have the little scar from that. Maybe it is just my bias, but I don't care for cutting edge technology.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: redrider90 on July 24, 2017, 11:06:47 AM
Irgendetwas ist besser als gar nichts
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Kev m on July 24, 2017, 11:26:23 AM
Sure you have a disagreement with me. You keep supporting a logic that HOG is in the picture when they are clearly clueless when it comes to survival.
So saying BMW's product is "better" than HOG's non existing product is "subjective and silly"? That's a good one Kev. I'll take it up a notch.  Seems to me that BMW's new G 310R as well as the KTM 390 Duke (and for that matter all the other new 300-500 cc bikes) are not only "better" but are light years ahead of HOG's entry level bike. "Subjective and Silly" is why the "Street" as in Wall Street is not so happy with HOG's performance in the market. HOG is behind the 8 ball and needs to get out there with something fast.

OK, you're right about everything, I'm wrong. Harley can't and won't survive.

Also Subaru's WRX and Ford's Focus RS as so much better than the AWD performance car from Jeep too. I suspect Jeep will be the next to fold.

Is that better?

Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: oldbike54 on July 24, 2017, 12:17:34 PM
 The correct answer as always is "Blue" . Or Red , or Purple , or...

 Mommy , my head hurts , should I wait for the new Vapor Glide ?

 Dusty
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: kevdog3019 on July 24, 2017, 12:41:49 PM
At the rate Guzzi and HD are going, if they hang around long enough they will be back in style eventually. Buy a Jap bike from the eighties and you'll feel like you're more technologically advanced than a current Guzzi.  :evil:
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: canuck750 on July 24, 2017, 04:49:24 PM
Stepping back from the debate I can relate to what Kev said about the RK being the right bike for him, fast enough, comfortable, dependable and can far exceed the posted speed limit, that sounds right by me.

My go to favorite bike for putting a smile on my face and not risking a big ticket is my 72 Eldorado, zero cutting edge technology, kinda slow, not much power but it just 'works'.

If the bike makes you smile and you feel safe on it then what's not to like.

Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Vagrant on July 24, 2017, 04:57:14 PM
Stepping back from the debate I can relate to what Kev said about the RK being the right bike for him, fast enough, comfortable, dependable and can far exceed the posted speed limit, that sounds right by me.

My go to favorite bike for putting a smile on my face and not risking a big ticket is my 72 Eldorado, zero cutting edge technology, kinda slow, not much power but it just 'works'.

If the bike makes you smile and you feel safe on it then what's not to like.

 :thumb:
the V7 has been around so long it's back in style!
for 2018 I hear they will come with a free pair of kevlar bell bottoms.
Title: Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
Post by: Chesterfield on July 24, 2017, 08:35:30 PM
While BMW grows nicely. https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/bmw-motorrad-sales-first-half-2017/