Author Topic: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .  (Read 17290 times)

Offline ITSec

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2017, 06:03:56 PM »

...I don't think the market for classics/cruisers/tourers are going away completely any time soon.


Piaggio better hope it isn't, since they've bet the Mandello del Lario farm on that area of the market, at least for the next few years!
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Online Kev m

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2017, 06:08:10 PM »
Piaggio better hope it isn't, since they've bet the Mandello del Lario farm on that area of the market, at least for the next few years!
Yup, that too.
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Offline TimmyTheHog

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2017, 06:29:37 PM »
PS the money thing is BS too.

Sure you CAN spend ridiculous dosh on some top of the line models loaded with accessories.   

But equally you can buy models for similar prices to the competition if you look. Hell I just spent less on a new RK then I would have a Cali 1400.

Perhaps it's Canada, or perhaps it's my local dealer...

But when a fatbob or a soft tail slim with no accessories costs the same with a 1400 California with full fairing, that is pricy to me...

I am gonna go with its Canada...
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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2017, 06:39:18 PM »
Just one man's opinion, Honda over Harley, as for me I prefer neither, I pick up a 2016 K1600 GTL tomorrow for my sofa on wheels variant of motorcycling to travel with missus Canuck on. Somewhere north of 700 lbs and a lot of ponies to get from A to Z.

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2017, 06:39:18 PM »

Online Kev m

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2017, 06:39:20 PM »
Perhaps it's Canada, or perhaps it's my local dealer...

But when a fatbob or a soft tail slim with no accessories costs the same with a 1400 California with full fairing, that is pricy to me...

I am gonna go with its Canada...
Oh there are certainly some outrageously priced models, Softails usually among them, but there are plenty that are competitive too.

That said, yes exports are often priced much higher.
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Offline cruzziguzzi

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2017, 07:28:46 PM »
In a form of aside. I've been reading for many weeks in places like WSJ, economist and the like that the international automobile industry is girding its collective loins against the back-wash of the coming new-car glut.

Perhaps Harley is merely the bellwether for the motorcycle industry considering that they are more singularly market focused than most any other manufacturer? Harley has NO fall-back position from heavy cruiser other than the new, weird and slowly accepted to Harley - lightweights. And in heavy cruiser, I include the Sportster line.



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Offline Chesterfield

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2017, 09:09:41 PM »
This article was a a bellwether from 6 years ago. Many of my friends were dismissive of it at the time. I thought it was totally going to be the way it is turning out to be. I wished my thinking was wrong on this.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/opinion/sunday/is-the-iphone-replacing-the-motorcycle.html?mcubz=2

Offline ITSec

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2017, 09:19:41 PM »
Perhaps it's Canada, or perhaps it's my local dealer...

But when a fatbob or a soft tail slim with no accessories costs the same with a 1400 California with full fairing, that is pricy to me...

I am gonna go with its Canada...

Back when I lived in Edmonton and hung around with Steen Hansen's kids, it was pretty widely acknowledged that the HD Canada organization (which has a completely unique relationship to the mothercorp compared to operations in other countries) tacked on a premium of around 25% or more on all new HDs they provided to dealers. From all I've heard, nothing has changed. Take US retail, add the exchange rate for the loonie, then add 25% or so 'just because we can'.
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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2017, 10:16:33 PM »
Back when I lived in Edmonton and hung around with Steen Hansen's kids, it was pretty widely acknowledged that the HD Canada organization (which has a completely unique relationship to the mothercorp compared to operations in other countries) tacked on a premium of around 25% or more on all new HDs they provided to dealers. From all I've heard, nothing has changed. Take US retail, add the exchange rate for the loonie, then add 25% or so 'just because we can'.

Up until a couple years ago ALL Harley Davidsons shipped to Canada where distributed through the Deeley empire in Vancouver and they set the retail prices. Harley dealerships in the USA would not sell a new HD to a Canadian customer that was planning on taking the bike back to Canada. Back around 2010 when the Canadian buck was worth more than the US greenback a Canadian could get a new HD for a lot less in the USA, a lot of 'like new' Harleys found their way north. I can't speak for HD new prices in Canada but now but most Japanese bikes and BMW are cheaper for me to buy here in Canada. A bike that sells for $25K USD sells for about the same in CDN dollars.

Offline ITSec

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2017, 10:28:20 PM »
Up until a couple years ago ALL Harley Davidsons shipped to Canada where distributed through the Deeley empire in Vancouver and they set the retail prices. Harley dealerships in the USA would not sell a new HD to a Canadian customer that was planning on taking the bike back to Canada. Back around 2010 when the Canadian buck was worth more than the US greenback a Canadian could get a new HD for a lot less in the USA, a lot of 'like new' Harleys found their way north. I can't speak for HD new prices in Canada but now but most Japanese bikes and BMW are cheaper for me to buy here in Canada. A bike that sells for $25K USD sells for about the same in CDN dollars.

Good to hear. When I bought my V-Strom in Edmonton back in 2002 it was about 10% higher than in the US after exchange rates were considered.
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Offline Arizona Wayne

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2017, 12:59:47 AM »
10 years ago I had a Guzzi friend that decided to buy a new Harley instead in norCal and found out he could only buy 1 for  a local HD dealer where he lived, period.  :huh:  No other HD dealers would seriously offer to sell him a new bike.  That pissed him off so he bought a new Victory instead.  :azn:

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2017, 01:13:03 AM »
10 years ago I had a Guzzi friend that decided to buy a new Harley instead in norCal and found out he could only buy 1 for  a local HD dealer where he lived, period.  :huh:  No other HD dealers would seriously offer to sell him a new bike.  That pissed him off so he bought a new Victory instead.  :azn:
That's weird and doesn't make any sense, at least not framed with my experiences.

And considering 10 years ago was literally the time when the bubble had burst, recession was hitting, and Harley dealers had hit a point where for a number of years they'd no longer been selling out their entire inventory and were starting to discount/negotiate.

But hell even back in the days of the "lists" (90's) in PA there were literally half a dozen dealers in less than an hour's ride and I could have easily bought from any of them (and did buy from two different ones regardless of my address).

Of course Harley's story for the past three or four decades is a pretty unique one with unprecedented growth and success the size and rate of which was never sustainable so the only question is how far the market will correct.
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Offline rocker59

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2017, 10:48:31 AM »

Ah, the 1990s and waiting lists.  I ordered a new 1994 HD in October 1993 and took delivery six months later, in April 1994 !!!  Bought it in Memphis because the dealer in Little Rock was more expensive and couldn't guarantee a delivery date.

I remember hearing about some dealers who wouldn't sell out of their "territory", trying to ensure service customers, I guess.  However, I have not ever had an HD dealer tell me they wouldn't sell to me because I wasn't local.
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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2017, 11:04:47 AM »
 Circa 1999 the old Myers Duren HD in Tulsa was still located in their old location which was pretty small , although they had a remote warehouse . They pretty much wouldn't do business with a customer who wasn't local . That probably doesn't apply anymore .

 Dusty

Offline redrider90

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2017, 11:50:21 AM »
This is happening a bit later than I thought but I have thought since well before the recession that HOG was going to contract significantly due to attrition of baby boomers.  Unless their promise on 50 new models in the next 5 years takes off they are doomed. Those 50 new models should already have been on the market. It is hard to believe they haven't looked at their demographics these past 2 decades and planned ahead. Loosing Buell was a huge mistake. They could have done more with that platform and eaten away at the Japanese and Ducati market. Look at what all those city bikers who ride in groups are riding. Those guys are nuts but they are a big market and HOG didn't try and bust into it. With the destruction of Buell the lost all possible Ducati crossover. With the high cost of maintenance on Ducks they could have let Buell be Buell and take a slice of that cake.
At the local Sunday morning MC gathering you could see upwards on a good day of 150+ bikes. Buells came in riding with the sport bike crowd and not with the cruiser HD crowd. The came in AGATT and were younger riders compared HD cruise crowd.  If I owned HOG I'd sell it.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 12:22:20 PM by redrider90 »
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Offline roadscum

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2017, 11:53:24 AM »
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing " - Socrates

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2017, 12:06:30 PM »
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Offline Chesterfield

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2017, 03:32:34 PM »
Hats off to BMW and good for them!!  :thumb: :thumb: :1: :cool:

You diversify to bikes riders want and they wii come it appears.

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #48 on: July 20, 2017, 05:13:28 PM »
You diversify to bikes riders want and they wii come it appears.

Perhaps, but it would be good to remember that BMW is still selling tens of thousands fewer units in a year, and is still far off from the peak Harley years of 300k+ bikes.

So even with their market contracting and their selling a less diverse portfolio they're still ahead, but who's to say for how much longer.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 06:13:36 AM by Kev m »
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Offline roadscum

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #49 on: July 20, 2017, 07:25:51 PM »
Perhaps, but it would be good to ignore that BMW is still selling tens of thousands fewer units in a year, and is Afton far off from the peak Harley years of 300k+ bikes.

So even with their market contracting and selling a less diverse portfolio they're still ahead, but who's to say for how much longer.

It's all about capturing market share. You gain share by producing products  that interest the public and feed there dreams.... not many new riders dream of  being a pirate these days. There more sifisticted, seek adventure, and embrace technology. Just my thoughts..... :popcorn:

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Online Kev m

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #50 on: July 21, 2017, 06:27:33 AM »
It's all about capturing market share. You gain share by producing products  that interest the public and feed there dreams.... not many new riders dream of  being a pirate these days. There more sifisticted, seek adventure, and embrace technology. Just my thoughts..... :popcorn:

Paul
"not many" yet Harley, even with a decline in sales still holds 50% of the US street bike market, and similar products from Indian, Triumph, JAPanInc, and yes, even Guzzi make up a not insignificant additional percentage of sales.

So the MAJORITY still prioritize classic/standard cruiser/tourer motorcycles.

And this "technology" thing always makes me laugh. With the possible exception of BMW there's not much technology on other brands that you don't find on Harleys. But Harley has always prioritized the desired functions of their customers and made it seamless.

* EFI since the early 90's that runs basically flawlessly. No pinging (Breva 1100), no mysterious cold idle stumbles/low speed surging (1TB smallblocks).

* Maintenance free valve trains that work! No complete failure of hydraulic valve trains, no flat tappet motors that way themselves.

* Keyless security systems for more than a decade that don't mysteriously strand the bike (Cali 1400). And if there is a problem you can enter a personal code to disable it.

* Keyless ignition on some models with the security system.

* EFI trouble codes that display through the dash.

* ABS

No most aren't water cooled, OHC, but that's not what most people want or need anyway and it's hardly cutting edge "technology"

And no they don't have multi-mapping, TC (yet), tire pressure sensors, electronic suspension or windshield adjustments. But then again, neither do the vast majority of other bikes on the market today.





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oldbike54

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #51 on: July 21, 2017, 09:01:11 AM »
 Yeah , but they are just so boring and gauche  :evil:

 Dusty

Offline redrider90

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #52 on: July 21, 2017, 09:18:32 AM »
Nothing else matters except "the declining sales" and the declining stock price which is down $8/share (15%) in one month.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 11:05:48 AM by redrider90 »
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Online John Ulrich

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #53 on: July 21, 2017, 10:36:44 AM »
I remember hearing about some dealers who wouldn't sell out of their "territory", trying to ensure service customers, I guess.  However, I have not ever had an HD dealer tell me they wouldn't sell to me because I wasn't local.

Remember a number of years back when Guzzi corporate tried that?  Jim at Ned's (Iowa) would be penalized a few dollars if he sold to a customer in Chicago.  I believe it was brought about by the Calif dealer who was selling dealer returned Guzzi's dirt cheap nationwide and the other dealers got hung with fixing them.
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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #54 on: July 21, 2017, 01:35:39 PM »
I do have to hand it to BMW for their willingness to expand into different sectors. For decades BMW were the old man's bike, dependable, high build quality, comfort, sporting... not.

The S1000RR and R model are pretty high spec performance bikes, there is a broad range of 800 cc bikes and the new entry level G310R and G310GS are good move for attracting new buyers. The traditional boxer range covers the full spectrum of sporting, tour and classics and the big touring K range has the power and luxury boxes filled and the K1600B is a nod to the cruiser buyer. I even like the C650GT urban scooter for its styling if nothing else.

The K1600GTL is priced very close to a HD Electra Glide Ultra Classic. The K bike has a lot more tech, is it all necessary?? well it didn't cost me any more than the Ultra and the K has a lot more power, weighs over a 100lbs less and is turbine smooth up to the point of loosing my licence.


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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #55 on: July 21, 2017, 02:05:56 PM »
I do have to hand it to BMW for their willingness to expand into different sectors.

Agreed  :thumb:


The K1600GTL is priced very close to a HD Electra Glide Ultra Classic. The K bike has a lot more tech, is it all necessary?? well it didn't cost me any more than the Ultra and the K has a lot more power, weighs over a 100lbs less and is turbine smooth up to the point of loosing my licence.

My loaded Jeep JKU Wrangler was within $50.00 of a loaded Focus RS. Both have very different levels of power and tech.

Different horses for different courses.

I wouldn't look twice at a K-bike, and that's been true for decades for me.

Similarly as I believe I already said, my new RK was just CHEAPER than a new Guzzi Eldorado with a lot more gear (windshield, bags, passing lamps, front and rear crash bars etc., and it was thousands cheaper than a Cali 1400T with that gear), but that's not why I bought the RK, I bought it because it was the right flavor and features for ME. I'd have spent more for the Eldo if that's what I wanted.

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Offline moltoguzzi

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Re: Is this the end?
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2017, 02:51:54 PM »
My nephew the Harley salesman tells me that the MoCo is concerned . He bases this on the communication between the MoCo and the very large corporate dealership where he works . The dealership is getting pressure to "do something" because sales and overall market share are on the decline . Like Sears or K Mart , once a huge company begins to contract it can be tough to find equilibrium . HD rode the wave successfully for many years , but that wave may be dying on the shores of a shrinking market , and an unwillingness to look far enough into the future .

 Dusty

 PS . One thing my nephew has told me is that in his dealership sales of Motor Clothes have declined , T shirts and doo rag sales ain't what they used to be .
Spoke with a corporate rep at Wilkins HD in Vermont and he stated that HD will release 100 new models in the next 5 years to accommodate changing demographics. I asked if the new motor will be in the Dyna line next year he stated it may be a few years but had no official answer.

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Re: Is this the end?
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2017, 03:07:51 PM »
Spoke with a corporate rep at Wilkins HD in Vermont and he stated that HD will release 100 new models in the next 5 years to accommodate changing demographics. I asked if the new motor will be in the Dyna line next year he stated it may be a few years but had no official answer.

 Kinda makes one wonder how many different Sportsters will be on sale . The Sportster Low , the Sportster Tall , the Sportster Denim , The Sportster Dark , the Sportster Bulldog  :shocked: It's funny, some of the guys on a Harley forum are already saying there are too many models .

 Dusty

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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2017, 03:18:49 PM »
There is no way on Earth they could release a 100 new models over 5 years!  20 a year, come on!!
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Re: The MoCo is failing merged threadfest .
« Reply #59 on: July 21, 2017, 03:29:21 PM »
There is no way on Earth they could release a 100 new models over 5 years!  20 a year, come on!!

There counting new paint job's on existing models with a fender swap   :wink:
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