My pops' brand new Norge cut out on him

[redrider90]

Waltr,

Your comment struck me as "sour grapes."  IMHO, it does not reflect well on you.  It would appear you know the new Guzzi owner.  Your comment sounded to me like you were saying, "See?  I told you so!"

Here we have a new Guzzi owner who has found his "new bike experience" tarnished by the "Achilles heel" of Moto Guzzi in the U.S. - too few dealers and some who don't service new bikes well (such appears to be implied in your post - I know nothing about the NC dealership).  I wonder if you would have been better served by saying something like, "If you're in the neighborhood bring the bike in and we'll help sort it for you."  That might have given you the opportunity to develop a new loyal customer.  Instead, your comment makes you look like a dealer who believes "customers get what they deserve."  That makes me a bit uncomfortable.

Of course, it's your dealership and your shop - present the image you want others to see.  In the meantime I hope some of our Norge owners and others will help Right_Slide's dad get his new Guzzi sorted out.

Just my 2¢.

Bill

Well it may be sour grapes and may be he was poking a finger in the buyers eye but it sure is not worthy of reporting it to a moderator.

[Bill Havins]

Well it may be sour grapes and may be he was poking a finger in the buyers eye but it sure is not worthy of reporting it to a moderator.

RR90,

I stand behind my comments.  I really hate to see a new owner confronted with a breakdown.  I hope MG dealers feel the same.

Report it to a moderator?  You'll need to ask someone else to find out who did that - I certainly didn't.  Perhaps Luap or Rocker will share that information with you.

Bill

[frans belgium]

At the factory the oil temp sensor was put in the wrong hole

So Luigi had another one of his dreaded braincramps, did he?  Probably the same guy that tried to screw in the lambda's in my new Norge, though the drill holes didn't match.  A Monday morning after too much Chianti in the weekend?  So tiresome....

[esmurrell]

Chuck,

I'm not sure about the early Norge's but the 2011+ models have an oil cooler with fan.  At least that is what I believe.

Eric

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck,

I'm not sure about the early Norge's but the 2011+ models have an oil cooler with fan.  At least that is what I believe.

Eric

Aaaaahh. Thanks!

[mphcycles]

The Norge oil temp sensor /fan interference has been noted  by PGA  as a very small number of units affected. This seems to me to be untrue, all Norges need this checked on PDI and repaired. The alt wire can be checked on PDI pretty easily  and we have found a couple less secure than ideal.
Also note the O2 sensors  have been odd. As in we have 3 of them that are physically damaged  prior to installation. Dented shells. Bike runs ok cold in open loop, but when warm it switched to closed loop operation and is trying to read a fubar'ed sensor. Easy enough to check them, next Norge we sell will get both removed on PDI for inspection. No we dont paid for that , unless they are found to be damaged.

[youcanrunnaked]

The Norge oil temp sensor /fan interference has been noted  by PGA  as a very small number of units affected. This seems to me to be untrue, all Norges need this checked on PDI and repaired. The alt wire can be checked on PDI pretty easily  and we have found a couple less secure than ideal.
Also note the O2 sensors  have been odd. As in we have 3 of them that are physically damaged  prior to installation. Dented shells. Bike runs ok cold in open loop, but when warm it switched to closed loop operation and is trying to read a fubar'ed sensor. Easy enough to check them, next Norge we sell will get both removed on PDI for inspection. No we dont paid for that , unless they are found to be damaged.

Another reason why buying from a good dealer like MPH makes a big difference.  

It's too bad these bikes come from the factory with so many issues, though.  I understand that Guzzi is a boutique brand, so some things will slip by them, but their history (at lease their modern history) shows that even when problems come to light, too often they don't seem to care about making a running or even model-based change that will prospectively eliminate them.  The list of recurring problems spanning several model years and even several models is a long one, and it appears to be growing longer.  

[mphcycles]

Another reason why buying from a good dealer like MPH makes a big difference.  

It's too bad these bikes come from the factory with so many issues, though.  I understand that Guzzi is a boutique brand, so some things will slip by them, but their history (at lease their modern history) shows that even when problems come to light, too often they don't seem to care about making a running or even model-based change that will prospectively eliminate them.  The list of recurring problems spanning several model years and even several models is a long one, and it appears to be growing longer.  

In fact its been pretty good QC in the last few years. Thats what makes these issues on one model stand out, its as if they were built in a different plant, by a different crew.  The V7s have been very little trouble, the Griso doesnt give any troubles. The Norhe has a few issues, but they are simple once we learned their weak spots.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Quality control on my 07 Norge was very good. On my 98 Centauro, I often said, "the only reason they assembled it was to make sure you got all the parts."  ;D

[Gliderjohn]

The only issue on my 2011 Norge was loose fasteners at first. Retightening and where needed some blue locktight took care of that issue, otherwise couldn't ask for a nicer running bike. Oh, the only other issue was early on two of my tires with low miles were nail magnets. Not MGs problem though but aggravating.
GliderJohn

[Kiwi_Roy]

Is there any way to get feedback to the designers in the factory.
My pet peeve is the way they keep trying to stuff 50 Amps through the ignition switch.
I honestly don't think they realize how the starter solenoids work.

[mphcycles]

I took  one of our starter relay kits with me to the factory in 2011. I showed it to the engineers that were meeting with us, they had never heard of a problem with the start relay.  I dont know if they are in touch with anyone outside of the design center, but its seems that they arent. We have no way to reach them, and the US service/tech rep  gets our inputs, but Italy runs a "Not invented here"  attitude.

[Bill Hagan]

I took  one of our starter relay kits with me to the factory in 2011. I showed it to the engineers that were meeting with us, they had never heard of a problem with the start relay.  I dont know if they are in touch with anyone outside of the design center, but its seems that they arent. We have no way to reach them, and the US service/tech rep  gets our inputs, but Italy runs a "Not invented here"  attitude.

Thanks for that (troubling) insight.

But, surely this is/was not a "USA only" issue, but must have some chatter on European Guzzi forums, including http://www.animaguzzista.com right there in Mandelloland?

Bill

[mphcycles]

Bill we have sent the kit all over the world. Its not a US only problem, the designers are looking forwards 5 years down the road, and dont get bothered with mistakes on stuff that might have been drawn 7 to 10 years ago.
Now somebody somewhere should be filtering these issues and letting the respective depts know about common problems.( Should )

[Wayne Orwig]

I took  one of our starter relay kits with me to the factory in 2011. I showed it to the engineers that were meeting with us, they had never heard of a problem with the start relay.  I dont know if they are in touch with anyone outside of the design center, but its seems that they arent. We have no way to reach them, and the US service/tech rep  gets our inputs, but Italy runs a "Not invented here"  attitude.

That is obvious from the internal fuel line blowing off issue. That hung around for what, about 7 years, before they tried a difference hose. And i suspect they just changed suppliers and weren't really fixing it.
In every organization that I have been involved with, the design team is working on 'the next big thing', and generally isn't bother with their own past mistakes. But there IS a group ('continuation engineering' or whatever they want to call it) that supports and tracks current issues. And a system to make sure that current issues, are avoided in future products. Whoever that person (it wouldn't take a team, one person could do most of it) is at MG, has failed.

Maybe after years and years of stupid press comments (with the crankshaft rotating like that it will flop around like a pig and weave all over the road) MG has just adapted to ignoring the outside world and their mostly ignorant comments.

[father guzzi obrian]

Bill we have sent the kit all over the world. Its not a US only problem, the designers are looking forwards 5 years down the road, and dont get bothered with mistakes on stuff that might have been drawn 7 to 10 years ago.
Now somebody somewhere should be filtering these issues and letting the respective depts know about common problems.( Should )

Yep, they are missing a department in Design. In most Aerospace companies, they have Design Engineering for new product development, and a dedicated Sustaining Engineering group to sort out the stuff that comes up in the field or they become aware of....

[youcanrunnaked]

In fact its been pretty good QC in the last few years. Thats what makes these issues on one model stand out, its as if they were built in a different plant, by a different crew.  The V7s have been very little trouble, the Griso doesnt give any troubles. The Norhe has a few issues, but they are simple once we learned their weak spots.

Griso (No troubles?) -- Cam failures, dashboard failures, intermittent neutral light, poor fueling....

Stelvio (Conspicuously missing from your list.) -- Cam failures, pinch bolt breakage, ECU shorting because location not water-resistant, electrical gremlins, groaning clutches, wheel bearing failures, poor fueling....  

Your remarks beg the question:  In today's market, for new motorcycles in the $10,000 - $20,000 price range, is "pretty good" quality control good enough?

I took  one of our starter relay kits with me to the factory in 2011. I showed it to the engineers that were meeting with us, they had never heard of a problem with the start relay.  I dont know if they are in touch with anyone outside of the design center, but its seems that they arent. We have no way to reach them, and the US service/tech rep  gets our inputs, but Italy runs a "Not invented here"  attitude.

Bill we have sent the kit all over the world. Its not a US only problem, the designers are looking forwards 5 years down the road, and dont get bothered with mistakes on stuff that might have been drawn 7 to 10 years ago.
Now somebody somewhere should be filtering these issues and letting the respective depts know about common problems.( Should )

That does not suggest world-class QC.  Man-made machines cannot be 100% problem-free, but a manufacturer who willfully ignores how their products perform in the real world is shooting itself in the foot.

[normzone]

Sigh. As a guy who does QA / QC for a living, I must comment here.

The issues you have identified where shoddy workmanship results in problems, yes, those are issues that the Quality team is responsible for. Also those where a component that can be (has been) well manufactured that gets shopped to a substandard supplier is also a Quality issue.

But it sounds like many of these issues are design flaws, and those responsibilities rest squarely with Design Engineering and upper management. The Q guys are tasked with making sure the parts and assembly are to print, and cluing the design guys and management to shortcomings (remember the Challenger?) so they can address those issues.

Everywhere I've worked the design engineers want to be involved in the sexy new designs, and nobody wants to do the sustaining engineering that [father guzzi obrian] refers to. It's a management responsibility to see that it happens.

[mph cycles] is on it as well. I get blowback from engineers when I bring them problems with machines already in the field - if we're not currently selling them and it's not a safety issue, it's difficult to get prioritized.

[Waltr]

  I have spent little time here as of late.  Knowing the weather and temperatures we have had this spring I concluded the ONLY reason to do a ride of this length to buy a new bike would be save a few bucks. What is the term: Penny wise but pound foolish. Of course I do not know the details and for jumping to that conclusion I am sorry.
 We just went to deliver a bike (V7) that had 2 intermittent failures to respond to the starter switch.  We lucked out and it set a code that we recorded.  It continued to start and operate pefectly after that.  We ordered a RPM sensor under warranty and got M-G to pay for a very thorough test of everything down to the wiring harness and pins to the ECU. We believe in being proactive.

  

  When I posted,  I had no idea who the selling dealer was.  I am in no way calling out anybody.  We have a couple of dealers around here though that I would not let work on my lawn mower.  

  I fact we have had gotten a call recently from someone looking to buy a used Moto Guzzi. He lived in North Carolina. He stoped by our place while home visiting family last summer. I told him he may be better off cultivating a relationship with a local dealer. I called him back after finding a used Breva 750 kitted out very well at Mathews Fun Machine's.  I told him that that bike was a steal and he should go look at it.  Long story short is he waited too long and it was sold. 
  

  

[Waltr]

Waltr,

Your comment struck me as "sour grapes."  IMHO, it does not reflect well on you.  It would appear you know the new Guzzi owner.  Your comment sounded to me like you were saying, "See?  I told you so!"

Here we have a new Guzzi owner who has found his "new bike experience" tarnished by the "Achilles heel" of Moto Guzzi in the U.S. - too few dealers and some who don't service new bikes well (such appears to be implied in your post - I know nothing about the NC dealership).  I wonder if you would have been better served by saying something like, "If you're in the neighborhood bring the bike in and we'll help sort it for you."  That might have given you the opportunity to develop a new loyal customer.  Instead, your comment makes you look like a dealer who believes "customers get what they deserve."  That makes me a bit uncomfortable.

Of course, it's your dealership and your shop - present the image you want others to see.  In the meantime I hope some of our Norge owners and others will help Right_Slide's dad get his new Guzzi sorted out.

Just my 2¢.

Bill

  Bill just to let you know we have never turned away any vehicle with a warrany claim.  People have driven some distance to to have us do warranty work and have been satisfied with the outcome. If we had gotten the call we have been there. 
  As far as what makes you uncomfortable I cannot begin to understand. If this is some attempt on your part to cast aspersions about me or the business I work for I do take offense to that.  As for me knowing the new Guzzi owner I do not (read my last post). 
 

[mojohand]

I'd really love it if there were a "here's how you REALLY do a PDI" manual for each bike...such as, "Waterproof the speedo cable on the Griso" or "Seal the oil pressure sensor gaskets better" or "Loc-tite the bolts that need Loc-titing, such as the Norge's muffler cap bolts."

[molly]

Who knows what's going on in the factory. Redundancies sap moral and under staffed departments inevitably effect the final products quality.
The 8 valve cam issues must have had a effect on the business. To produce a motor with a design flaw and then set about a adhoc fix rather than a proper recall surely points to a business not on top of it's game.
Internet forums can be a bad place to form a overall opinion of a product because every little issue is given the full spotlight treatment but in this instance I do feel Moto Guzzi have let their customers down.