Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: canuck750 on August 14, 2018, 01:53:04 PM
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/1989-Norton-Commander/263875207301?hash=item3d70302085:g:o2MAAOSw5xJbcJuO&vxp=mtr
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/Norton%20Rotary_zps0afaokvk.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/Norton%20Rotary_zps0afaokvk.jpg.html)
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Wankel. Didn't know these engines types made it into the motorcycle world. The first time I ever saw one of these engines was in a model airplane format. I worked in an R/C service department repairing small engines all day long for a couple of years, and these were always interesting to see. Most of the times they just needed new apex seals (the "rings"), and they were back to new. My recollection was that they were smooth, lower rpm, but not as responsive and seemed to have less power of a 2 or 4 stroke engine of the same CC. It has been over 20 years, so what I remember now could be different that reality then :wink:
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Wankel. Didn't know these engines types made it into the motorcycle world. The first time I ever saw one of these engines was in a model airplane format. I worked in an R/C service department repairing small engines all day long for a couple of years, and these were always interesting to see. Most of the times they just needed new apex seals (the "rings"), and they were back to new. My recollection was that they were smooth, lower rpm, but not as responsive and seemed to have less power of a 2 or 4 stroke engine of the same CC. It has been over 20 years, so what I remember now could be different that reality then :wink:
Hercules and Suzuki also built Wankel powered bikes .
Dusty
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I like it!
-AJ
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(https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37933258_2110100759311551_2043085250870902784_o.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=ea435723f9c547a8939ceb81f2b2bdb1&oe=5BFC9A6F)
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Hercules and Suzuki also built Wankel powered bikes .
Dusty
A friend of mine has both the Hercules and Suzuki
The Hercules is a very simple looking bike with decent components on it, Grimeca, Marzochi etc.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/Hercules_zpsvecinhiq.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/Hercules_zpsvecinhiq.jpg.html)
The RE5 is just way over the top, a solution to a problem that did not exist
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/RE5_001_zpsfryysl1y.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/RE5_001_zpsfryysl1y.jpg.html)
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A friend of mine has both the Hercules and Suzuki
The Hercules is a very simple looking bike with decent components on it, Grimeca, Marzochi etc.
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/Hercules_zpsvecinhiq.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/Hercules_zpsvecinhiq.jpg.html)
The RE5 is just way over the top, a solution to a problem that did not exist
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg217/canuck750/CRASH/RE5_001_zpsfryysl1y.jpg) (http://s249.photobucket.com/user/canuck750/media/CRASH/RE5_001_zpsfryysl1y.jpg.html)
The Hercules (Sachs) uses the same basic engine as I posted above. I was offered one for $1200 back in the '90s but thought about it too long and someone else snapped it up.
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Norton rotaries won the IOM TT about 25 years ago. Police bikes too.
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"Look what they've done, to my brain Ma"
(https://thumb.ibb.co/jtjs0p/nnnn.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jtjs0p)
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I wonder what it costs to maintain a rotary bike, it sure looks cool, would love to roll up to Sunday coffee on that.
What's the story on the Suzuki exhaust, looks like air intakes.
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The Norton is now legal to import per Federal law because it is 25 years old. If you happen to be in California, the state has its own law which contradicts Federal law so don't plan on registering the Norton in California. All that said, per the advert. this bike and its engine were imported at 21 years old in two separate shipments, a common gambit that allows importation as motorcycle parts, not a complete vehicle. I'd assume there's no importation paperwork so the legality for US operation in 2018 is in a grey area, probably more black than white. Caveat emptor.
A friend of mine imported a Lotus 7 car also made in 1989 into California, when it was near new. Same separate chassis and engine shipments, shortly after reunited. Totally illegal to operate anywhere in the US, at the time. After no more than 15 years of effort and just a few (multiple) attempts, he finally satisfied (fooled) the authorities and got it registered as a kit car :grin:
Great history on the Norton Rotary here, it was originally heavily influenced by the F&S (Hercules) engine: https://www.nortonownersclub.org/history/rotary (https://www.nortonownersclub.org/history/rotary)
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I wonder what it costs to maintain a rotary bike, it sure looks cool, would love to roll up to Sunday coffee on that.
What's the story on the Suzuki exhaust, looks like air intakes.
The exhaust reportedly ran very hot, the intakes at the front of the pipes are functional and draw cool air between the dual walled exhaust pipes. There have been plenty of articles in bike magazines over the years documenting Suzuki's belief that the Rotary was the future in the early 70's, the obsession with solving the Rotaries many issues and the public's reluctance to purchase the over weight, over priced and overly complicated RE5 almost bankrupted Suzuki.
Regardless of the RE5's market failure I have always respected the engineering hurdles Suzuki went through to get the rotary to market.
By comparison the Hercules is a very low tech solution to the same design cul de sac.
This one is coming up to Auction, later model without the unique round instrument bezel cover and tail light
https://www.mecum.com/lots/CA0818-330938/1976-suzuki-re5/
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Ive ridden a few, super smooth, no engine braking to speak of, pretty reliable and chains last forever, the early air cooled ones ride better (imho) but all good. Total loss oil system just like a 2 stroke (shell rotella )is recommended, I know some guys who have done crazy miles on them including Richard Negus ex CEO of Norton who developed his to the ultimate degree. Never bought one though because I'm stuck in that air cooled 4 stroke world ....
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The technology is neat but the bike is fugly. I thought we were going to see the Norton f2.
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The technology is neat but the bike is fugly. I thought we were going to see the Norton f2.
The F2 is a way better looking bike.
http://moto.zombdrive.com/image-model/5813-norton-f-1-1.jpg.html
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The engines discussed here are Wankels...A rotary looks like this.. :wink: Both types had a short history..
(https://smgco-images.s3.amazonaws.com/media/I/A/A/medium_cd0062_010_041209_A_S_L1996_53_22_Gnome_rotary_engine.jpg)
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That bike belongs to Roger Slater, one of the legendary British Slater Bros of Laverda fame. He retired to the Spokane area and is active in the Washington Vintage Motorcyclists. When he is selling a bike, it is in primo shape.
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Funny we'll be passing Spokane towards the end of next week on a road trip, not Guzzi mounted unfortunately, looked into shipping a Guzzi over but cheaper renting out of Vancouver, oh and I used to own a Jota, life is full of coincidences :grin:
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Sorry I missed this. I have ridden two Rotaries. A Classic which is an unfared version of the Commander with air cooled motor and an F1 Sport. Less exotic version of the F1. Both electric motor smooth. I rode the Sport in the early '90s and thought it felt very similar to a friends very hotted up Ducati 900ss which was dynoed at 82 RWHP.
A brit friend has well over 300k miles on his Commander. Another friend was the chief repair mechanic for Norton and took care of all the Police Commanders. He came over to the states to service the Classic.
Their achilles heel was the technique to used to "harden" the combustion chamber side plates. Rather than nikasil which would have been ideal they simply acid etched the aluminum. It was fine as long it didn't overheat and oil pressure was maintained but if it did overheat the seals would wipe the side plates.
Nearly the ideal touring bike though.
Pete
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When you bought a new Norton Commander in the UK the factory had a mobile mechanic service because they had no trained dealers who could work on the engine.
No one could agree on the engine size it was either a 588 or double that depending on who you spoke to.
Originally a police bike, not many were sold once the complexity of the engine and it's shortcomings became apparent.
If I remember right the running gear was from a Yamaha XJ900.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpBEAewUwEo
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A mate of mine has two of them, a red and a white one.
He won them as second prize in a raffle, first prize was the red one, second prize was the white and red one..!
But seriously..
They feel reminiscent of a stock piped GT 750 Suzuki.
Also sound remarkably similar.
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I wonder what it costs to maintain a rotary bike, it sure looks cool, would love to roll up to Sunday coffee on that.
What's the story on the Suzuki exhaust, looks like air intakes.
They are..
(Were)
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That bike belongs to Roger Slater, one of the legendary British Slater Bros of Laverda fame. He retired to the Spokane area and is active in the Washington Vintage Motorcyclists. When he is selling a bike, it is in primo shape.
I remember Roger 'the dodger' Slater. He sold my mate a Laverda RGS1000 back in the eighties. I wondered where the old rogue had washed up. :laugh:
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My friend just emailed me he has 488,000 miles on his. They have their shortcomings but how many Guzzis have that many miles on them and there were far more of those made.
Pete
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Owned a couple of them, if they have been molyed they are very reliable.
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Adding some Guzzi content to this thread. How about a Loopframe with what appears to be a Mazda Wankel installed?
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_more_topics_prototype_moto_guzzi_with_a_wankel_engine.html
(http://thisoldtractor.com/mg_images/guzzi_wankel_1.jpg)
Good article on the Van Veen OCR 1000 on the same page.
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Adding some Guzzi content to this thread. How about a Loopframe with what appears to be a Mazda Wankel installed?
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_more_topics_prototype_moto_guzzi_with_a_wankel_engine.html
(http://thisoldtractor.com/mg_images/guzzi_wankel_1.jpg)
Good article on the Van Veen OCR 1000 on the same page.
That looks like a great fit and very appropriate for the bike.
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A friend of mine had a Norton Classic rotary, a Hercules rotary and a Suzuki rotary. He asked me and another friend to ride them to a rotary day held about 200kms away down the Putty road. I jumped at the chance as I have always wanted to ride a rotary bike. We rode about 450kms that day, swapping bikes along the way.
The Hercules has always been my favorite but it was very underwhelming and felt under-powered but that was probably just me not wanting to thrash my mates bike.
The Norton was superb in every possible way, good brakes, good handling, comfortable and with smooth linear power like an electric vehicle.
I never like the look of the Suzuki it is long and fat and is in original ratty patina condition but it turned out to be my favorite of them all to ride. It had loads of character even with ordinary brakes and handling but it had an amazing sound that just urged you to rev it out at any opportunity. I was smiling for days afterwards and felt honored to have had the chance to ride them as my mate has since sold them all due to his pending retirement.
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Nobody has yet mentioned the Van Veen, always thought they were great looking bikes
(https://www.motofire.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Van_Veen_OCR1000_cropped.jpg)
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The Wankel powered Guzzi was essentially a prototype for the Van Veen, built by the chief engineer. I find stuff like this fascinating. (It's mentioned in Antietam's link). I've got to own a Wankel something or other some day.
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Nobody has yet mentioned the Van Veen, always thought they were great looking bikes
Adding some Guzzi content to this thread. How about a Loopframe with what appears to be a Mazda Wankel installed?
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_more_topics_prototype_moto_guzzi_with_a_wankel_engine.html
(http://thisoldtractor.com/mg_images/guzzi_wankel_1.jpg)
Good article on the Van Veen OCR 1000 on the same page.
:wink:
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Thanks I never looked at the link, I am now :laugh:
I came across another article on them something like 38 built and one went for 60k GBP in 2016, I'll just have to keep dreaming I guess :wink:
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Thanks I never looked at the link, I am now :laugh:
I came across another article on them something like 38 built and one went for 60k GBP in 2016, I'll just have to keep dreaming I guess :wink:
According to this article, they're planning to build more. "Only" $125,000.
https://www.motorcycleclassics.com/more-classic-motorcycles/van-veen-ocr-1000-rotary-engine-motorcycle-zmmz11sozraw
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According to this article, they're planning to build more. "Only" $125,000.
https://www.motorcycleclassics.com/more-classic-motorcycles/van-veen-ocr-1000-rotary-engine-motorcycle-zmmz11sozraw
As I said