Year 1 of the V85 - dependable enough to buy?

[ohiorider]

I would...but only knowing that the forums would be my security blanket.

I wouldn't count on a dealer being there to help.

Well said.  My sentiments exactly.  Feeling that way up front puts more of the responsibility for after-the-sale issues on you,  If you're willing to accept that, then this might be the right next bike for you

[old head]

I have, and never been burned with a lemon as of yet.

bought first year cb400 Honda, over 35k, not a problem.
 
bought first year ft500 Honda, did have a transmission shaft lock up the tranny, but the dealer fixed it and never had another problem, over 50k.  Regret selling this one.

bought first year Saturn, had a few issues, except for having to replace camshaft, lifters, and fixed a cracked support boss when the lifter rod cracked.  changed oil every 3k, with filter and oil weight recommended 5w30.  At 125k the roller lifters were scored and the plating had worn off the camshaft, loss of power.  Ended up replacing camshaft, lifters, timing chain and gears, and used JB WELD to fix the broken boss, tapped a deeper hole and it went back together. It was running fine when I sold it at 295k.   Needless to say, GM hasn't see me cross their threshold since.

bought first year new generation Dodge Ram 2500 with Cummings.  the motor and drive train, solid as a rock.  The truck, lets just say dodge won't have to worry about me buying another one of their vehicles.  Maybe the newer ones are better, but I will never try one.

Old Head

[Matteo]

First year Norge, soft suspension-hit bottom a few times riding home from Seattle.
Two summers later oil pump failed on Top of the world highway.
Stiff plastic side panels cracked on break in ride to Oregon.

V85 supposedly has lots of new engine tech. So yeah I'm waiting for someone closer to a dealer to iron it out.

[Huzo]

No bloody way is a bottom feeding "dealer" going to get his paws on mine.
I'll try to think of a better course of action..
Oh WOW...!
(I just did..)
Now, where is that Hume Hwy..?

[jas67]

bought first year new generation Dodge Ram 2500 with Cummings.  the motor and drive train, solid as a rock.  The truck, lets just say dodge won't have to worry about me buying another one of their vehicles.  Maybe the newer ones are better, but I will never try one.

When I bought my Powerstroke-powered F350, I wanted the Cummins, but, the the consensus seemed to be that the Dodge/Cummins was a 500k mile engine in a 100k mile truck, vs. the Ford being a 300k mile engine in a 300k mile truck.

I know a few people with the Dodge/Cummins trucks.   The engines are great.   The rest of the truck, not-so-much.

My Ford has been a good truck, except when the high-pressure oil pump failed at 130k miles.   That was a $2k repair.   The high-pressure oil pump provides oil pressure to actuate the injectors, so, thankfully, this isn't as catastrophic as it sounds, the engine just stops running with no other damage.

 

[JohninVT]

From what I’ve seen, the V85 is just a further developed V9 in ADV trim.  The V9 seems to have been pretty solid.  The rest of the V85 is parts bin stuff that’s proven.  The two areas I have concerns with are things I’ve wondered about from the first pics that came out; I don’t think the subframe is strong enough to handle two fat Americans and their luggage without breaking and the swing arm mounting arrangement doesn’t seem up to hard use.  Neither of those things would be an issue on a road going version of the bike.

[LowRyter]

From what I’ve seen, the V85 is just a further developed V9 in ADV trim.  The V9 seems to have been pretty solid.  The rest of the V85 is parts bin stuff that’s proven.  The two areas I have concerns with are things I’ve wondered about from the first pics that came out; I don’t think the subframe is strong enough to handle two fat Americans and their luggage without breaking and the swing arm mounting arrangement doesn’t seem up to hard use.  Neither of those things would be an issue on a road going version of the bike.

From my reading, it looks like the V85 is quite a change from the V9.  I think the internals are much lighter, breathes better and runs up another 1k rpms or so.  But maybe it's all hype and it's a parts bin machine?

I might add that the 1400 was a new design too.  And other than some electronic gremlins and some early cracked crossovers, it's been a solid machine.  And I'd be afraid of the electronics/computer on any new bike unless it was from Japan (or maybe a Triumph).

[bpreynolds]

From my reading, it looks like the V85 is quite a change from the V9.  I think the internals are much lighter, breathes better and runs up another 1k rpms or so.  But maybe it's all hype and it's a parts bin machine?

I might add that the 1400 was a new design too.  And other than some electronic gremlins and some early cracked crossovers, it's been a solid machine.  And I'd be afraid of the electronics/computer on any new bike unless it was from Japan (or maybe a Triumph).

I'm the original poster here and I don't think it being a first year bike would keep me off it if I wanted it, but I totally get the concerns by many here and have some of them myself.  I still clearly recall only having the first Guzzi I ever owned in my hands six months out of the whole year, this due to 3 different recalls that needed performing and the dealer not able to get all the parts for all three recalls in any one span of time. 

I have had such wonderful luck engine wise and so forth with Guzzis, I don't think I'm "too" concerned with that aspect; yet, I would 2nd concerns with regard to the electronics package.  This is the first TFT display for a Guzzi model and it has Navigation capability and a few other bells and whistles.  These things are not easy to get right the first year.  In fact, just off the top of my head - and if I recall correctly - KTM and BMW has had some issues with their TFT screens.  I know for sure the one on my former (Thailand assembled) 390 Duke the TFT was basically Skynet  making its own decisions and so forth. 

[Darren Williams]

I don't know for sure what has been done to the engine to get the claimed power, over what the V9 is putting out, but surely something higher performance has changed. That is the engine. Then you have the gearbox and the final drive. Are they durable enough to hold the power increase and harder off road abuse? That is where a company like Moto Guzzi has economy of scale issues. Can they build a couple dozen test mules and beat on them in real world like a larger manufacturer?

I just bought my third new Guzzi in the last 9 years about 6 months ago and went in with eyes wide open. I knew about the issues I would need to address right away and am comfortable with the latest CARC bikes having the design issues taken care of. I got it because I just like the feel of the bike enough to add it to the stable.

The V85 TT is a bike that gets my attention, but the Tenere 700 coming out in 2020 (only about 15 months away) is trumping this Guzzi offering, at least on paper in my estimation.

[pete roper]

The fact of the matter is as yet no real information of any worth has been released. There has just been a lot of meaningless blather and hype.

What has been suggested with a matter of certainty is that the motor is still an OHV design with a hemispherical combustion chamber, bigger valves with Ti heads on the exhausts and roller tappets at the bottom end. Another change is the move to a fully dry sump lubrication system. More needs to be said on that a bit later.

On the engine management side it's going to use the same 52mm throttlebody and 7SM controller used on the Cali 1400's. Whether the same plenum system is being used we don't know but I'd assume it will.

So far there has been no mention I know of of significant changes to the construction of the crank or connecting rods. Something that if they want to get more power out of it they will have to do as they will have to make it spin faster. To enable that to happen you'll need lighter components. Not just crank rods and pistons but also in the entire valve train. While Ti valve heads reduce weight that will more than be offset by the increase of mass in the roller tappets so few, if any, gains there.

More in a bit.

[jas67]

I have had such wonderful luck engine wise and so forth with Guzzis, I don't think I'm "too" concerned with that aspect; yet, I would 2nd concerns with regard to the electronics package.  This is the first TFT display for a Guzzi model and it has Navigation capability and a few other bells and whistles.  These things are not easy to get right the first year.  In fact, just off the top of my head - and if I recall correctly - KTM and BMW has had some issues with their TFT screens.  I know for sure the one on my former (Thailand assembled) 390 Duke the TFT was basically Skynet  making its own decisions and so forth.

Pretty much the entire production run of Breva 1100 and Sport 1200 had an LCD display of questionable reliability.
Hopefully, they've learned how to properly seal instrument panels since then.

[jas67]

The V85 TT is a bike that gets my attention, but the Tenere 700 coming out in 2020 (only about 15 months away) is trumping this Guzzi offering, at least on paper in my estimation.

The Tenere 700 will be lighter, but, it's chain drive.    Being shaft drive is a big selling point for me with the V85TT.    It will be the closest thing on the market to the original R80G/S and R100GS.

[pete roper]

The fact of the matter is as yet no real information of any worth has been released. There has just been a lot of meaningless blather and hype.

What has been suggested with a matter of certainty is that the motor is still an OHV design with a hemispherical combustion chamber, bigger valves with Ti heads on the exhausts and roller tappets at the bottom end. Another change is the move to a fully dry sump lubrication system. More needs to be said on that a bit later.

On the engine management side it's going to use the same 52mm throttlebody and 7SM controller used on the Cali 1400's. Whether the same plenum system is being used we don't know but I'd assume it will.

So far there has been no mention I know of of significant changes to the construction of the crank or connecting rods. Something that if they want to get more power out of it they will have to do as they will have to make it spin faster. To enable that to happen you'll need lighter components. Not just crank rods and pistons but also in the entire valve train. While Ti valve heads reduce weight that will more than be offset by the increase of mass in the roller tappets so few, if any, gains there.

More in a bit.

The other thing I think I've been able to glean from the various 'Interviews' with people involved in this project is that one of the things that will greatly boost the new engine's power output is the adoption of a full scavenge dry sump system that is designed to reduce the pressure in the crankcase leading to lower parasitic losses from the pumping action of the pistons.

Now that may sound all well and good if you're an escaped mental patient or suffer from some basic learning disability that prevented you moving beyond year five in primary school but unfortunately the reality is that if you add another level of mechanical intervention the parasitic losses from that are going to outweigh the benefits! Sorry! That's the way the universe works! Nothing can be done about it. If they have gone down that route it would seem to me to be far more likely they have done so because the volume within the small block crankcase is insufficient to prevent over-pressurisation under sustained, hard, high load, high speed running. Positively evacuating the case will reduce the stress on both seals and the breather system. Mind you, it would seem to me to be a very tough way of going about it!

At the end of the day to increase the engine's performance you need to improve its efficiency. There are three efficiencies.

Mechanical. That is making things work better with fewer losses.

Thermal. Taking the heat created in the motor and using it to heat the gas in the combustion chamber and making it expand or raise the pressure to do more work. Waste less of it as heat radiated or transferred from the motor.

Volumetric. Getting more gas into the cylinder and combustion chamber so that when it is heated the pressure rise will be greater and therefore produce more work.

There are no *Magical* improvements that happen simply because time has gone on and things have 'Got Better'. That 'Better' has to be quantified and explained otherwise it's just so much more unicorn farts!

Getting back to the original question though. Should a first year model be avoided? Well essentially all of the tech is very old school. Even the electronics have proven pretty reliable in the Cali series. Sure RSV-4's used in anger will shed the heads of their two part exhaust valves like confetti if provoked but we're looking at a massively more highly tuned and 'Hotter', (Literally!) motor with a much, much higher engine speed and critical component loads. I see no reason why it shouldn't be a reliable thing as long as the people servicing them are trained correctly and actually do what they are supposed to!

I hope they are as reliable as an anvil and sell by the squillion.

My next motorbike will be either an SWM or an AJP.

Pete

[JJ]

[twowheeladdict]

If I was buying a bike this year to take to the far reaches of North America I'm not sure if it would be a Moto Guzzi of any year compared to all the Japanese bikes I have owned. 

Having my enclosed trailer within 100 miles of where I might ride the V7III adds that comfort factor that I can still get home if something happens. 

My V7III is in the shop right now for a lack of charging issue.  If this had happened while in New Mexico I would have been disappointed that my riding time was cut short, but I would have been able to trailer the bike home to my closest dealer.  If I had been out there on the bike alone I would have had to rent a truck to get it home which would have been a costly affair.

If my back somehow got in the shape where I could get back to 400 mile days for 15 days straight I would probably go for a new Goldwing sport or whatever they are calling the one without the tourpack.  Or maybe the Africa twin.

Honda is the only dealership within 20 miles of my house.  Harley is 30 miles.  Multi brand is 40 miles and Moto Guzzi is a 4 hour round trip.

[Ncdan]

Research past history,then make a decision and roll the dice;)

[Rough Edge racing]

The other thing I think I've been able to glean from the various 'Interviews' with people involved in this project is that one of the things that will greatly boost the new engine's power output is the adoption of a full scavenge dry sump system that is designed to reduce the pressure in the crankcase leading to lower parasitic losses from the pumping action of the pistons.

Now that may sound all well and good if you're an escaped mental patient or suffer from some basic learning disability that prevented you moving beyond year five in primary school but unfortunately the reality is that if you add another level of mechanical intervention the parasitic losses from that are going to outweigh the benefits! Sorry! That's the way the universe works! Nothing can be done about it. If they have gone down that route it would seem to me to be far more likely they have done so because the volume within the small block crankcase is insufficient to prevent over-pressurisation under sustained, hard, high load, high speed running. Positively evacuating the case will reduce the stress on both seals and the breather system. Mind you, it would seem to me to be a very tough way of going about it!

At the end of the day to increase the engine's performance you need to improve its efficiency. There are three efficiencies.

Mechanical. That is making things work better with fewer losses.

Thermal. Taking the heat created in the motor and using it to heat the gas in the combustion chamber and making it expand or raise the pressure to do more work. Waste less of it as heat radiated or transferred from the motor.

Volumetric. Getting more gas into the cylinder and combustion chamber so that when it is heated the pressure rise will be greater and therefore produce more work.

There are no *Magical* improvements that happen simply because time has gone on and things have 'Got Better'. That 'Better' has to be quantified and explained otherwise it's just so much more unicorn farts!

Getting back to the original question though. Should a first year model be avoided? Well essentially all of the tech is very old school. Even the electronics have proven pretty reliable in the Cali series. Sure RSV-4's used in anger will shed the heads of their two part exhaust valves like confetti if provoked but we're looking at a massively more highly tuned and 'Hotter', (Literally!) motor with a much, much higher engine speed and critical component loads. I see no reason why it shouldn't be a reliable thing as long as the people servicing them are trained correctly and actually do what they are supposed to!

I hope they are as reliable as an anvil and sell by the squillion.

My next motorbike will be either an SWM or an AJP.

Pete

  Good point about getting the heat of combustion acting on the piston and not being radiated off as waste....It used to be that most bikes had dry sumps ... Some of the reasons are a more compact crankcase and to mount the engine lower in the chassis and possibly better oil cooling  ....Now it appears that many bikes, including some really fast ones have wet sumps...As Pete says, if it's old school proven Guzzi technology all should be ok...But while that's good for Guzzi enthusiasts, other buyers that like high tech stuff may not want one...So, I think it's still a small market and that's ok if Guzzi makes enough money to keep going..

[fossil]

Hmmm... When I follow this thread I come to the conclusion most here think the V85TT is constructed basically by the same people who did the detail design of Lemans III  and later, the small blocks, the not-rollerized four valves and so on. But this obviously is not the case. This bike is completely designed by Aprilia. They took the basic dimensions of the old smallblock and made a new motorcycle. This of course incorporates the danger that they made something wrong that has to be sorted out ASAP, but I think they simply worked professionaly and delivered a sound design. I think this cannot be compared to the new developments in Guzzis past and their partial failure in the first years.

[Tusayan]

I wish Guzzi was designed by the same people/organization/facility that developed the LM III etc but in the here and now Guzzi chassis development is typically done at the Aprilia facilities in north east Italy (Noale etc) and engine development is typically done by Piaggio itself, near Pisa.  The latter is also true for many Aprilias, and these are the same people who have done all the Guzzi powertrain development since the first chain driven cam 8V engines replaced the belt driven 8V engines - problems and all, and everything else Guzzi since 2005. Today they also make small block Guzzi transmissions and so on.  Aprilia was an atttactive buy for Piaggio years ago because in addition to killing Aprilia scooter competition, at the time for larger bikes Aprilia used Rotax engines in their own chassis, which could be replaced by Piaggio engines to expand Piaggio powertrain design & production activity. Guzzi came along for the same ride except for their engine manufacturing competence.

Moto Guzzi isn’t a company any more, just a Piaggio brand, but the facility in Mandello and 100 employees are still used for engine manufacture and final assembly/shipment of the bikes.  This is advantageous in the market that has evolved to value the perception of Guzzi’s relative “authenticity” in the face of Chinese/Italian manufacture (SWM, Benelli), expanding Indian and Thai production of old European brands, Volkswagen control of Ducati and all the rest.

All that said, I wouldn’t be greatly concerned about detail design issues with the V85TT.  I’d guess they’ll improve it over time but I doubt the first bike will be a disaster. To date Piaggio has been pretty successful in tweaking Lino Tontis engine.

[steveford]

I bought the first 1400 Touring from Moto Guzzi Portland, and it's been an awesome bike, with over 50000 miles so far. I'm going to take a long look at the V-85 to maybe add to my stable. It will depend how it fits me.

[Rough Edge racing]

Hmmm... When I follow this thread I come to the conclusion most here think the V85TT is constructed basically by the same people who did the detail design of Lemans III  and later, the small blocks, the not-rollerized four valves and so on. But this obviously is not the case. This bike is completely designed by Aprilia. They took the basic dimensions of the old smallblock and made a new motorcycle. This of course incorporates the danger that they made something wrong that has to be sorted out ASAP, but I think they simply worked professionaly and delivered a sound design. I think this cannot be compared to the new developments in Guzzis past and their partial failure in the first years.

 But it's still an OHV engine... not anything wrong with a well designed push rod engine but it's the same only different, lol...As you say, it looks like a nice package..

[Lannis]

Research past history,then make a decision and roll the dice;)

Unfortunately, past history says that Moto Guzzi doesn't deal with new technology very well.

Things like hydraulic valves (which they got into when the technology was 70 years old but couldn't make it work), painting engines with black crinkle paint (they were 50 years late to that party and still butched it up), or making cam followers to open the valves (about 115 years behind Benz and Hispano-Suiza and got that wrong).

So the research isn't encouraging.   You have to go on Faith!

Lannis

[Matteo]

When I was a Coast Guard Flight Mechanic in the 90's we took delivery of H60 helicopters (Seahawks,Blackhawks.....) from Sikorsky. In the first year an inspection discovered that the aluminum used in the tail pylon was half the thickness of the specs.
The world wide fleet had to be re-skinned.