Author Topic: Bacon Slicer project  (Read 93784 times)

Online siabeid

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #270 on: March 05, 2018, 07:48:00 AM »
Wow Shawn, I can't wait to see it in action! Are you going to ride it to Mt Vernon Saturday?

Offline Psychopasta

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #271 on: March 05, 2018, 07:50:02 AM »
Congratulations: very well done!
V50 Monza 1981
Moto Guzzi V7 Stone Special 2023
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Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #272 on: March 06, 2018, 12:14:10 AM »
Thank you!  It is fun to get it going.  Yes, planning on riding to Mt. Vernon. 

Needs lots more work so the saga is not over!  :popcorn:
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #273 on: March 31, 2018, 12:09:57 PM »
The slicer's got about 100 miles on it now. (would be more except for weather and being super busy at work) 

Most obvious problem is that it backfires out the carb when hot and when it does the engine often dies.  Weirdly, lowering the idle till it sounds like an old make-n-break stops the backfiring and so less likely to die. I kept wondering if it was ignition, but a bad magneto wouldn't idle so slow.

Adjusting the idle mix just made it idle faster and faster until the mixture screw is about to fall out (it's air-adjust).  So I tried lowering the float level, raising the float level, retarding the timing - nothing worked. 

   


Has to be a worn out carb me thinks so... installed the old 28mm carb off the V50 engine out of the Monza.  Here it is running on the Monza carb.




Eliminated the backfire completely and had a stable idle - but it was an absolute bear to start cold and it fell on it's face as soon as the throttle was opened.  not even up the driveway!  (it's jetted for a 250)  Ugh, messing around with jets and needles and slides takes forever so don't want to do that.  At least the engine will idle with a good carb.

Measuring some jets with a wire gauge revealed that the backfiring idle jet had been drilled out from a 50 to a 60.  (this goes along with the oversized mainjet and the soot inside the engine) 




I bodged a smaller opening with some JBWeld and it (almost) works.  It's now about a 46 so a little undersized, but the idle mix is adjustable.  And the carb doesn't need replacing (yet).  After testing with the JBWeld jet.



1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #273 on: March 31, 2018, 12:09:57 PM »

Offline Aaron D.

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #274 on: March 31, 2018, 12:24:28 PM »
JB Weld jetting. You have gone way past my ingenuity level!

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #275 on: March 31, 2018, 05:34:33 PM »
Good idea for a test. It won't hold up, of course. For whatever reason, "tuners" almost always decide that the jets are too small. You've just found another case.
When the Kid first got his Spot running after the restoration, it would fall on it's face at higher rpm. He found something like 150 mains. Kept going down to about 130 or so (from memory) on those 40s..  :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline Sheepdog

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #276 on: April 01, 2018, 08:31:13 PM »
Magnificent! Extraordinarily quick turnaround for such an old model, too. Well done!
"Change is inevitable. Growth is optional." John C. Maxwell

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #277 on: April 07, 2018, 01:36:57 PM »
Dave, a great guy with enough experience to have raced a Norton Manx at Daytona (!) loaned me a 50 idle jet from his stash of Dellortos!   :grin:  They are the same as some of the SS1 carbs.




Then I went around making the bike more ridable. 

The rear hub is from a Sport 15 or some similar 3-speed hand-shift Guzzi with a 33 tooth rear sprocket.  The ratio was so high that you really didn't need 4th gear.  Bought a new 36 tooth blank sprocket from PBI in Oregon.  Unfortunately it was too large to fit on my little lathe so Brad, another great guy who builds things like a TZ750 street tracker (!), machined the center for me.  (I know some really great people  :bow:)  Also took the opportunity to check and clean the rear brakes again.

                  


Heated the pipe and lowered it, then lowered the foot pegs.  I got the bike with the pipe pulled up so high that it melted the foot peg rubber and forced the peg to interfere with the shifter pivot. The muffler is supposed to sit low enough to remove the rear axle above it, but it sat mostly above the rear axle.  Now the pipe is in stock position and foot pegs about 1" lower.  Lowering the foot pegs improved the geometry of the rear brake so now it is slightly more effective.

   


I had been running the original seat off my '47 Ariel because the bike is small for me and it sat further back that the stock seat (which is hard up against the tank). You can see the Ariel seat in the first picture above.  Modified the stock seat by welding extensions for the front mount so it sits back about 3", then added tabs for the seat springs.

          


Also completed the battery hold-down that was missing the tie bolt.

       


Waiting for the rain to let up...




Set the idle mix and it ran OK so then decided to go for a ride with the GoPro. 
https://youtu.be/yrxSZ_R-k-0




It is way more comfortable to ride with the lower pegs and better seat.  The bars are too wide (32") and come too far back (probably off an Alce or Ercole) so finding the stock handlebar seems like a good step.

Still some things to work out.  Idle is not very stable yet, may be a timing issue as the mag is slightly advanced from stock and it is set up as a tight wire advance when it should be slack wire advance.  Surges at low throttle openings so will try lowering the needle.  And still have to work out the starting drill!

Then there is those rock hard Pirellis from 1950 and the worn out suspension! 

1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline smdl

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #278 on: April 07, 2018, 04:27:00 PM »
Really enjoying this -- thanks for continuing to share your progress!

Cheers,
Shaun
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canuck750

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #279 on: April 08, 2018, 06:54:24 PM »
Lovin it :bow:

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #280 on: July 19, 2018, 11:29:37 PM »
Back from the old country with new parts and new info...




Some of those parts are for my buddy's Falcone. 

The story so far:
The slicer has a split personality of some good machine work and pinstriping and crappy everything else.   The cylinder was sleeved and a new standard size piston fitted, crank and conrod machined and oversized rollers fitted to the big end,valve seats welded up.  After that the worn out, bent rusty, leaky pieces were reassembled and painted and pinstriped.  Rear wheel and hub seems to be Sport 15 (circa 1930), handlebar and controls Alce, and Falcone dynamo gear.  But what is it really?  It is a GT frame with a V engine which should make it a GTV.

Mario Columbo and others report that frames from the factory were numbered randomly. but a clue from Gordon of the Google singles group suggests numbers are not so random.  Guzzi frames started with #51 and all similar frames got a sequential number regardless of engine or equipment.  When Guzzi started producing 250cc bikes with different frames they restarted the frame sequence with #1 so apparently you could have two bikes with frame number 1234 - a 250 and a 500.   Looking at production numbers for specific models indicates that Guzzi started another new sequence when they began producing the spring frame.  So now you could have 3 frames all with the same number 1234 - a rigid frame 500, a spring frame 500 and a 250 frame.  Ian Falloon and Mario Columbo publish production numbers for individual models and years of production so number of frames/ year can be estimated.  Using this info it is likely that this GTV was built in 1937 or '38.  This makes sense because the bike looks very similar to photos of Guzzis from the mid 1930s and the GTS kept by the Guzzi Museum (which also has a similar frame number):




The difference between the GTS and GTV is that the S engine is an F-head and the V engine a hemi-head.  One problem with this engine is that welding the valve seats raised them to the point that rocker geometry was messed up  - note the valve adjuster nuts between rocker and valve stem (this was also due to worn cam followers and rockers):




So need to reseat the valves using the refurbished valve seat grinder :thumb:  Rocker geometry much better.

         


There is also the issue with the short spark plug (or thick head :evil:).  Most spark plugs are either 1/2" reach (cast iron heads) or 3/4" reach (alloy heads), but this head is somewhere in between.




While in Mandello I tried to find the correct plug, but Marco at Guzzi Retro didn't have it and said - "very rare".  So attack it with the lathe:

   


With the head and rocker box off it was also a good time to replace the worn cam axle pin with the one I picked up in Mandello and replace the broken pushrod cup with new (also from Mandello) and correct the decompressor set-up.  Clearances are slowly being taken up!



1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Online RinkRat II

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #281 on: July 20, 2018, 10:17:34 AM »

  Thanks for the update SED :thumb:
   Your talents are appreciated and educational.

        Paul B :boozing:
A Miller in the hand is worth two in the fridge.

oldbike54

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #282 on: July 20, 2018, 10:23:23 AM »
 Congratulations Shawn , what a brilliant job you have done here , any chance you might bring that beauty to the WG National in Cedar Vale next year ?

 Oh , and as you requested , we will move this to the bike build archives later today , but for the moment we can all revel in the amazing thing you've accomplished . :bow:

 Dusty

canuck750

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #283 on: July 20, 2018, 11:24:50 AM »
Your build continues to a great source of information and has been an inspiration to get a slicer project of my own.

A 1949 Airione was picked up from San Diego this week and is on its way to me to take over as custodian.

The Airione is complete and it runs but I have no illusions about its condition and expect to go through it form top to bottom.

Learning from your experience that parts are still available is a real comfort and sealed the deal for me.

Cheers

Jim

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #284 on: July 20, 2018, 08:19:20 PM »
Thank you all for the kind words - though you might change your tune if you saw it in person - lets just say it looks good in photos and from about 30' away!   :grin:

Your build continues to a great source of information and has been an inspiration to get a slicer project of my own.

A 1949 Airione was picked up from San Diego this week and is on its way to me to take over as custodian.

The Airione is complete and it runs but I have no illusions about its condition and expect to go through it form top to bottom.

Learning from your experience that parts are still available is a real comfort and sealed the deal for me.

Cheers

Jim

Congratulations Jim. You will like the Airone.  I got to work on a friends Airone (which is gorgeous and making me consider a full-on paint and chrome job) and it is like 7/8 scale Falcone, which is mechanically very similar to the GTV so a lot of the info here will help... 

BTW - the Airone head might also need the 5/8" reach plug - my friends had a 3/4" reach plug in it but only inserted about 5/8"!  It has an alloy head.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 08:22:43 PM by SED »
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #285 on: July 20, 2018, 09:22:55 PM »
So the cylinder head is back on and the timing case buttoned up.  But there were a few more things on the laundry list -

Just before we left on vacation the baffle came loose in the muffler and was rattling around.  Removed the fishtail (3 screws) and drilled out the spot welds and the baffle came out.  Welded the pieces back together and reinstalled. (I've got a new muffler on order, but cant stand the racket, plus I want to get the timing and carburation dialed so it doesn't burn the chrome on the new muffler.)




Then there was the uncertain running so I bought a new idle jet and new float needle & seat so that I'd know fuel level was correct.  The old float seat was a bear to get out (kroil, time and gentle heat) but installed the new parts, turn on the fuel and gas floods everywhere.  The new seat leaks!  It's got a nick in it.   :angry:




So compared height of needle in the old and new seats and used a sealing washer to make up the difference.  Old seat, new needle, stock fuel height - no leaks. 

Then there was the little issue of the loose points plate...  Unlike Mr. Lucas, Mr. Marelli's magnetos have a keyway, so you don't loose your timing even if the points plate is loose.  Bike starts and runs but poorly - how did that bolt get loose?  :embarrassed:

Then the battery voltage is down and the lights don't light up...  6 month old AGM battery voltage is 5.5 volts, but then sometimes 3.5 and sometimes 6.3.  The gremlins have been running rampant in the shop!  Replaced under warranty.

Finally got the bike running and idling decently but I can't solve the problem of transitioning from idle to 1/4 throttle (Dellorto calls this the progression circuit) - the bike spits through the carb or dies completely if the slide is lifted a tiny amount and held there - it's too lean.  The progression is controlled by a passage below the slide, idle jet size, fuel level and slide cutaway.  The passage is clear, the idle jet is correct, the fuel level is correct and the cutaway is stock.  I've run leaner and richer idle jets, raised and lowered float level, raised and lowered the needle - nothing has worked.  Only thing left seems to be a smaller slide cutaway.  But 80 year old slides are tough to find.  Decided to make a change that is reversible by gluing a piece of brass of the correct shape inside the slide.  This is the result:




Big improvement!  We have transition (progression)!  The engine still hunts a bit when feathering the throttle and still occasionally spits through the carb or backfires out the muffler - but now it seems solvable.  BTW cutaway was lowered from stock 70 (7mm) to 50 (5mm).  May have to go to 4mm cutaway or larger idle jet or raise needle.  The problem is likely too much air due to a worn carb body so lowering cutaway (or a brand new Mikuni!) is probably the solution.








1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #286 on: July 20, 2018, 09:25:25 PM »
Oh , and as you requested , we will move this to the bike build archives later today , but for the moment we can all revel in the amazing thing you've accomplished . :bow:

 Dusty

Thanks Dusty!  Don't know about Cedar Vale - right now 25 miles is a big trip on this bike!   :grin:
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #287 on: July 21, 2018, 05:59:09 AM »
So much good work !!!!!
There must be someone in the US that could rebore and sleeve the carb and make or adapt anothe slide........Older repro dellorto carb parts are available too I think.

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #288 on: July 23, 2018, 10:06:07 PM »
So much good work !!!!!
There must be someone in the US that could rebore and sleeve the carb and make or adapt anothe slide........Older repro dellorto carb parts are available too I think.

Thanks!
There is a guy not too far from here that bores Amals - maybe he can do an old Dellorto.  I've also learned that this is done in Italy. 

Do you know someone who does it?
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Frenchfrog

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #289 on: July 26, 2018, 06:43:55 AM »
Had an Amal monoblock rebored and new matching hard chromed slide made for my heavyweight Panther in the late 80's .At that point that was the only way to go as no repro's were available  but can't recall who did it....In any case I'm sure that someone in the US can do dellorto's but not sure. Wolfgang Harter who does Laverda's might be able to help...a good thorough internet search should give a name.Certainly very much worth doing....alternativ ly there may be repro older Dellorto's available

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #290 on: December 01, 2018, 01:50:11 PM »
Update on the slicer. 

Back in late July the slicer was finally getting easier to ride. After re-positioning the seat I cut the 33" wide Ercole truck handlebar down to 28" and straitened it the best I could. Clutch, brake, throttle and decompressor cables were replaced and readjusted. Except for terrible brakes and some carb problems it was starting to feel like a useable motorbike. 
Can you imagine these bars 5" wider?!




This was getting so exciting that ordered new tires and leg shields (!) when they popped up on the Guzzi singles page.  Leg shields were original equipment on all the GT (Gran Tourismo) frame bikes.  The shields are essentially NOS - no dents or filler or bent brackets or crushed edges & original paint!  :shocked:
Unfortunately they touch the tank at the top.  These must be Falcone Tourimo leg shields.  They even have the cutout for the Falcone oil return line (second photo).  It would be easy to modify them, but better to trade for the correct ones.

   
 

As the bike got easier to ride the carburation seemed worse and worse. It had a persistent (and loud) backfire on the overrun. It would hunt and surge at low throttle openings and occasionally backfire through the carb. All the evidence pointed to the carb delivering too little fuel as the throttle transitioned off idle.  I tried the VHBH28 off the Monza - same problem but worse.  In desperation I ordered a brand new Mikuni: same problem - unless it was ridden with the enrichener, but then it wouldn't idle.       




Worse - it started to miss at idle and became difficult to start.  Arggh!  I parked it.

Finally the light bulb came on and I started to think magneto  :undecided:  90% of carb problems are electrical  :laugh:

My buddy Carlo had a spare dead magneto and he kindly let me play with it.  Amazed myself by getting it working!  :afro:
See all the ugly details here: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=98236.0

So about a month ago it was time to pull the mag on the GTV.  Found someone had eliminated the spark safety gap when they installed a replacement condenser.  Every time the engine misfired the high-voltage spark would find its way to ground through the fine windings of the high-tension coil.  Eventually this burned through the thin wire; it was only still working because the voltage could jump the gap along the carbon trace.  Ohm meter showed no continuity.  (connect meter leads to the spark wire lead-out and other to magneto ground)  Shipped the armature to Mark's Magneto Service in CT for a rewind. 
Armature due back around the first of the year...  :popcorn:

             

 
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #291 on: December 02, 2018, 10:26:07 PM »
With it sitting on the bench, it's time to get some other work done.

Pulled wheels and brakes to get brakes re-lined. 

   


And took a couple pieces to the chrome shop: Unfortunately, plater forgot to chrome the cap!  :tongue:

       


The pushrod tube aligns pushrods when installing the head. Worn cam followers and rocker bushings messed up pushrod alignment enough to wear out the tube ends.  The wear made installing the head a PITA. Repair seemed like a lot of work to get it right so sprang for a new tube and had it plated.  Before and after:

   
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 12:20:08 AM by SED »
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #292 on: December 15, 2018, 11:29:18 PM »
Brakes back from relining.





Thought about pulling the spokes and repainting the brake hub, drum and rim, but would have broken a lot of spokes. 




Pulling spokes and painting would have lead down the path of changing color to the correct amaranth burgundy which would lead to more disassembly and pretty soon its an out of control restoration and it will become (more of) a money pit and I'll never get to ride it except to worry about the first scratch and then guilt over the that scratch....
better to install a new rim-strip, tube and Dunlop K70 instead (appropriate Pirellis not to be found).




Unfortunately the rear drum is bent with an egg-shaped opening so 1/2 the braking surface is not parallel to the shoe surface.  I can get a repop drum from Italy for north of $100, but there's also a broken spoke and rim is a rusty mess with peeling chrome.  And it's not even the right wheel - brake, hub, cush drive are for an older Sport 14 or 15.  Do I spend more $$$ on the wrong wheel?

              



Amazingly I have a few spokes and a rim that fit. I'll probably put it together with good parts even if I don't keep the wheel.  Where is the throwing money and time away icon?    :rolleyes:



 
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Online RinkRat II

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #293 on: December 17, 2018, 04:08:31 PM »

       Where is the throwing money and time away icon?...... Closest thing I could find for Ya


             Thanks for the updates 
               Paul B :boozing:
A Miller in the hand is worth two in the fridge.

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #294 on: January 01, 2019, 10:01:08 PM »
       Where is the throwing money and time away icon?...... Closest thing I could find for Ya


             Thanks for the updates 
               Paul B :boozing:

That's it Paul!  When the smile goes away, I stop burning it for a while, but the smile keeps coming back!  :boozing:
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #295 on: January 01, 2019, 10:40:04 PM »
A couple of eventful things...

I started keeping Guzzi frame and engine numbers in a spreadsheet to try to determine the year this bike was built - it is misidentified on the title and Guzzi numbering from before about 1950 has been described as "Random".  32 frame numbers lined up show that the frame was built about 1937, engine 1948.  I've got dating requests in with the UK club and the factory.  Haven't heard anything yet, but confident they will confirm.

Also generated an illustrated version of the GTV shop manual that Patrick Hayes translated.  He graciously sent me a version I could edit so added pictures and tables from the original "manuale per operazione di smontaggio, controllo e montaggio" and some additional photos and diagrams.  It will be much easier to work from. 

Rebuilt the rear wheel with a better rim and replaced 1/2 the spokes.  Drum and cush-drive hub have to be pressed off the hub:




Stripped the paint off the spokes and pickled and painted those I was reusing. Wheel was laced 4-cross!



Was surprised that I was able to get the runout down to 0.030 or so.  Drum, cush-drive and sprocket back on; new Dunlop tire and good to go!

1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline Rick4003

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #296 on: January 02, 2019, 05:40:17 AM »
Good job on the wheel lacing, it look great!

Interesting with the different years of engine and frame. Perhaps the original engine was swapped out at some point in its short life  :tongue:

Keep on the great work! :bike-037:
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Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
Yamaha FZR 600 - 1996 - SOLD

canuck750

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #297 on: January 02, 2019, 07:51:12 PM »
Looks great, I am going to dive into my 250 Airone in 2019 and will be referring to your excellent detailed post!

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #298 on: January 02, 2019, 10:34:35 PM »
Good job on the wheel lacing, it look great!

Interesting with the different years of engine and frame. Perhaps the original engine was swapped out at some point in its short life  :tongue:

Keep on the great work! :bike-037:
This seems common with older bikes - the '39 Ariel is a mismatched frame and engine, but the Ariel factory only tracked the engine number so no info on the frame without lots of work.

And this GTV seems to have a later engine and earlier wheels and brakes (Sport 15 or GT17) and large cycle-truck (Ercole?) handlebars.  The mismatches and bodges and sand in the engine suggests that it spent much of its life in North Africa being bodged and repaired with left over parts on a shoestring.  An exciting history (Tobruk 1941?) I would love to know, but what a mess now!

Guzzi seems to have numbered frames and engines sequentially with jumps in the numbering - like frames starting at 6000 in 1936 and starting at 8,000 in 1938, but maybe not changing in 1937?.   Frame is 6439.  According to Ian Falloon 6555 GTVs were made but GTV frame numbers I've found range from 2811 to 26668 so clearly large gaps.  These are GT frames so they also include GTS and GT17s (and others) produced during the same interval.  Engine numbers range from V16664 to V80280 so again too many numbers.  This engine number falls near the end of production.

Probably more common to swap engines with older chain drive bikes than with modern or shaft drive bikes.
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

Offline SED

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Re: Bacon Slicer project
« Reply #299 on: January 02, 2019, 10:37:17 PM »
Looks great, I am going to dive into my 250 Airone in 2019 and will be referring to your excellent detailed post!

I'm working on an illustrated version of the GTV manual based on Patrick Hayes translation.  The structure of the bikes and manuals is so similar it might be helpful.  I'll send you a copy when finished.
1983 LeMans III
1981 Monza
1947 Ariel Red Hunter
1939 Ariel Red Hunter
1937 Guzzi GTV

 

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