2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll

[Muzz]

BTW, I found a schematic online today that supposedly is for the Ducati Engergia Regulator Guzzi Part # 32703810 which was used on the N7, B7, and V7C - part of the schematic reads:

Voltage Regulator 15.5 +/- 0.5 V

Someone thinks 16V is acceptable?
Gosh!

Certainly appears very high to me.

[Kev m]

Just got back from a nice ride to my favorite brewery, 130 miles round trip, and measurements were close to yesterday's measurements, both before and after the ride. 

14 and 15.1 at startup; 12.9 and 14.3 after the ride. 

I'm only using a cheapo Craftsman multimeter, but I checked it against a couple 9 volt batteries just to make sure it wasn't completely out of whack, and got readings close to 9V. 

Where's the "scratching my head" icon when you need it?

 

Thanks for that test!

Now I want to hear the electrical experts explain this. What's different? I winder if I'm going to find a problem in the wiring harness or if something else could effect the reading (a damaged battery?).


This is what I wondered about when this problem was first identified.

If I were you I'd consider it operating normally.

Though I might be tempted to install a voltmeter (I'm already tempted to do that in mine because of this).

Fwiw Jay, Cam, and my voltage regulators all shipped today.

[jas67]

Flood Lead Acid: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery
AGM: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/absorbent_glass_mat_agm

As a lead acid battery approaches full charge, it will draw less current.    This is called "topping charge", and should occur at a voltage no higher than 2.45V/cell or 14.7 volts.   

Once fully charged through saturation, the battery should not dwell at the topping voltage for more than 48 hours and must be reduced to the float voltage level. This is especially critical for sealed systems because they are less tolerant to overcharge than the flooded type. Charging beyond the specified limits turns redundant energy into heat and the battery begins to gas.

The recommended float voltage of most flooded lead acid batteries is 2.25V to 2.27V/cell. Large stationary batteries at 25°C (77°F) typically float at 2.25V/cell. Manufacturers recommend lowering the float charge when the ambient temperature rises above 29°C (85°F).

Not all chargers feature float charge and very few road vehicles have this provision. If your charger stays on topping charge and does not drop below 2.30V/cell, remove the charge after 48 hours of charging. Recharge every 6 months while in storage; AGM every 6–12 months.

Typically, you're not going to ride/drive for 48 hours straight, so, having the charge system voltage at 14.7 Volts is OK.    The better battery tenders though, will drop the voltage to a "float charge" level (typically indicated by a change in LED color or blinking on the charger).

The AGM link states that AGM batteries should be top charged at 2.4V/cell (14.4) and float changed at about 2.3V/cell (13.8V).

I'm sticking to the though that voltages over 14.7 volt are not good for the battery, and as the voltage rises above 15 volt, any voltage spikes are more likely to result in damage to the ECU or other electronics.

My recommendation is, for any bike that the voltage measures above 14.7 volts, the VR should be replaced.

[Cam3512]

Thanks for that test!

Now I want to hear the electrical experts explain this. What's different? I winder if I'm going to find a problem in the wiring harness or if something else could effect the reading (a damaged battery?).


This is what I wondered about when this problem was first identified.

If I were you I'd consider it operating normally.

Though I might be tempted to install a voltmeter (I'm already tempted to do that in mine because of this).

Fwiw Jay, Cam, and my voltage regulators all shipped today.

Keep the volt meter handy, I'll take the long way to your house today and we'll see what mine has to say.

[Kev m]

So if someone charged their battery before testing then the results they got at startup would represent full time RR operation (that was my instinct and why I did that).

That's why mine tested identically before and after the ride (at least with regards to at speed voltages).

But if someone tested their bike only on a cold start with a battery that had been sitting for a while they might get a false positive result (that is something I was worried about with this whole situation and relative "panic").

Though it still doesn't explain why some drop the voltage and others don't unless those that don't are just broken.

[jas67]

So if someone charged their battery before testing then the results they got at startup would represent full time RR operation (that was my instinct and why I did that).

That's why mine tested identically before and after the ride (at least with regards to at speed voltages).

But if someone tested their bike only on a cold start with a battery that had been sitting for a while they might get a false positive result (that is something I was worried about with this whole situation and relative "panic").

Though it still doesn't explain why some drop the voltage and others don't unless those that don't are just broken.

Both mine had been on battery tenders, and thus were fully charged when I got 15.3V and 15.5V.

A bike with a regulator putting out > 15V may measure at a safe voltage if the battery is low, such as after the bike has been sitting for a while, and then a measurement taking right after starting.

To be safe the measurement should be taking with a fully charged battery to see what the worst case high voltage condition is.

[jas67]

For anyone interested, I ordered extra material to make several more adapter plates.
Because I'm lazy (or is that efficient), I ordered it pre-cut to 2x4 inches, so, all I have to do is drill, tap, and countersink holes, which I can do on my drill press at home.

[tonUPRacer]

For anyone interested, I ordered extra material to make several more adapter plates.
Because I'm lazy (or is that efficient), I ordered it pre-cut to 2x4 inches, so, all I have to do is drill, tap, and countersink holes, which I can do on my drill press at home.

I still have yet to test, I'm assuming I'm going to need to replace mine as well. I saw the Roadster cycle guy had adapter plates all drilled. tapped for about $19, since I don't have a drill press or tap and die, I'll probably go that route. If any of you guys would be kind enough to post a little "help" with photos for connections etc. I for one would really appreciate it.

Grazie

[Kev m]

I still have yet to test, I'm assuming I'm going to need to replace mine as well. I saw the Roadster cycle guy had adapter plates all drilled. tapped for about $19, since I don't have a drill press or tap and die, I'll probably go that route. If any of you guys would be kind enough to post a little "help" with photos for connections etc. I for one would really appreciate it.

Grazie

Regulator R&R is pretty easy, but access is a little tight.

I found it easiest to pull the tank (that took 5 minutes with the help of Cam, a second set of hands really helps with this) and get nice clear working room to get at the connectors which are at the top front of the frame tucked just behind the steering head and just above a small plastic dust/moisture shield.

I cut 3 wire ties that secured the shield to the frame rails and carefully bend the two front arms on the shield (one at a time) till they could be repositioned below the rails.



The 2 regulator harness connectors weren't too bad to get apart, though the on from the stator (with the 2 yellow wires) one was a little stubborn. I found it wasn't enough to push down on the release tab while pulling on the connector. I needed to use a small screwdriver to both push down on the locktab AND at the same time gently twist it to pull the connectors apart.



Other than that it was less than a 1/2 hour job.

Perhaps Jay can show you what he'll be doing with the wiring once he gets both regulators in his hands. But essentially the new regulator will have two sets of wires which correspond to those in the old harness. The two yellow wires from the new regulator will connect to the two yellow wires from the stator (the regulator could have 3 but Jack and RoadsterCycle prepared ours with just the 2 wires on stator connector for our single-phase setups).

The two red output wires from the V7 harness will have to be connected to the 1 red wire in the new regulator harness. And the two green/black ground wires from the V7 harness will have to be connected to the 1 black wire in the new regulator harness.



Though you could cut the old harness and crimp the old connectors and wires onto the new harness I THINK Jay is planning on removing the terminals from these connectors and installing the connectors with new terminals onto the new regulator harness. But either method should work fine.

JAY - looks like the old regulator harness wires are about exactly 8" - so it will be nice if Jack really gave us an extra inch or two of wiring if you still plan on only putting terminals on the end of his harness.

[jas67]

I'm surprised you pulled it apart before having the replacement to put back on.

What size bolts attach the VR to the frame?    They look like an M6?

The adapter plate will use flat head allen socket screws, which I need to order so that I have them on hand.
I'll get stainless steel so they don't rust.

[tonUPRacer]

Kev, awesome thank you for the photo tutorial, a big help for a inexperienced wrench like myself. I know this isn't complicated but sometimes just a few pics and pointers can go a long way. 

Grazie,

Andy

[Kev m]

If anyone here hasn't taken the tank off before it's REALLY easy (much more so than on my previous Big Blocks)!

1. Remove Allen screw at back of tank.
2. Pull tank back off pucks to expose fuel pump wiring (front left of steering head). Unplug wiring. If you haven't already this is a good time to check the puck bolts to make sure they are tight. Better yet, back them out, put threadlock on them, then snug them up again.
3. Start and run till it stalls or crank the motor a few seconds to lower fuel pressure.
4. Lift rear of tank, follow the fuel hose from the upper midsection of the tank tunnel down to the frame rail. There's small square quick-connector with a button on two sides that you depress and hold while gently pulling up and back toward the tank. This should pull the connector off a spigot fitting right next to the frame rail.
5. Still lifting the rear of the tank carefully pull the smaller plastic hose (I think that's the filler cap overflow hose) off the nipple toward the rear underside of the tunnel,
6. Lift front of tank and carefully pull vent hose (I think that's the tank vent to the EVAP system) off the nipple at the front underside in the tunnel.
7. Remove the tank from the bike.

[sib]

If anyone here hasn't taken the tank off before it's REALLY easy (much more so than on my previous Big Blocks!

1. Remove Allen screw at back of tank.
2. Pull tank back off pucks to expose fuel pump wiring (front left of steering head). Unplug wiring. If you haven't already this is a good time to check the puck bolts to make sure they are tight. Better yet, back them out, put threadlock on them, then snug them up again.
3. Start and run till it stalls or crank the motor a few seconds to lower fuel pressure.
4. Lift rear of tank, follow the fuel hose from the upper midsection of the tank tunnel down to the frame rail. There's small square quick-connector with a button on two sides that you depress and hold while gently pulling up and back toward the tank. This should pull the connector off a spigot fitting right next to the frame rail.
5. Still lifting the rear of the tank carefully pull the smaller plastic hose (I think that's the filler cap overflow hose) off the nipple toward the rear underside of the tunnel,
6. Lift front of tank and carefully pull vent hose (I think that's the tank vent to the EVAP system) off the nipple at the front underside in the tunnel.
7. Remove the tank from the bike.

Good instructions.  It's worth pointing out that it's easier to remove a nearly empty tank than a full one.  The weight of ~5.5 gal of gas is ~35 lb.

[rbm]

Woke the bike up from winter storage this morning.  Measuring the voltage on the charging system for my 2011 V7 Racer, with the leads of my Fluke 70 multimeter across the battery terminals:

Ignition off:  12.57V
Cranking: 10.95V
At 1200RPM idle: 13.35V
At 4000RPM and above: 14.42V

Battery is the original Yuasa sealed lead acid that came with the bike.  In fact, it survived a house fire that burnt the motorcycle, so it's had a hard start to its life but apparently still going strong.

[slowmover]

2013 V7 Stone-Checked after taking it off battery tender and 1 hour ride.Original battery and bike has almost 7k on it.
Off -12.85
Idle -13.5
3k RPM -15.5
I guess I'll check the way to much box.

[Kev m]

Woke the bike up from winter storage this morning.  Measuring the voltage on the charging system for my 2011 V7 Racer, with the leads of my Fluke 70 multimeter across the battery terminals:

Ignition off:  12.57V
Cranking: 10.95V
At 1200RPM idle: 13.35V
At 4000RPM and above: 14.42V

Battery is the original Yuasa sealed lead acid that came with the bike.  In fact, it survived a house fire that burnt the motorcycle, so it's had a hard start to its life but apparently still going strong.

To be clear, most or all of the 2TB models aren't suspect as they used a different regulator.

I should mention it does appear that maybe the 2012 Racer used the same regulator, but I don't think we have any reports of one overcharging yet.

[pikipiki]

I have an early 2TB and my R/R looks the same. I get about 15v.
This is the one here:
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/mobile/Product.aspx?id=1337

Edit also see here ( this is best description)
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/MG-VoltRectOE-p/mg-voltrectoe.htm

[Kev m]

I have an early 2TB and my R/R looks the same. I get about 15v.
This is the one here:
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/mobile/Product.aspx?id=1337

.
Looks yes, wiring similar, and both single phase.

But if you check online the V7C/B7/N7 and I think the earliest racers all use one part number (for which Euromotoelectrics carries a replacement) and the 2012 Racer along with the dry stator 1TB Stone/Special/Racers use a different part number.

If the photos on various dealer websites are accurate the obvious difference is in the shape of the stator wiring connector so the two may not be completely compatible. Though it was the earlier one that Euromotoelectrics show data for suggesting it is also set to low 15V range so they may be very similar.

[pikipiki]

Seems changing the plug was a good thing, heres another one had same issue as mine. changing the plug I no big deal although I think this auction is a bit cheeky expensive as the plug is damaged, I changed my plug.


http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/172010153523?rmvSB=true&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F710-53481-19255-0%2F1%3Ficep_ff3%3D2%26pub%3D5575125332%26toolid%3D10001%26campid%3D5337806695%26customid%3D%26icep_item%3D172010153523%26ipn%3Dpsmain%26icep_vectorid%3D229508%26kwid%3D902099%26mtid%3D824%26kw%3Dlg%26srcrot%3D710-53481-19255-0%26rvr_id%3D996349200533&_mwBanner=1

PS can you post a link to the 2012 part Kev?

[Kev m]

Seems changing the plug was a good thing, heres another one had same issue as mine. changing the plug I no big deal although I think this auction is a bit cheeky expensive as the plug is damaged, I changed my plug.


http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/172010153523?rmvSB=true&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F710-53481-19255-0%2F1%3Ficep_ff3%3D2%26pub%3D5575125332%26toolid%3D10001%26campid%3D5337806695%26customid%3D%26icep_item%3D172010153523%26ipn%3Dpsmain%26icep_vectorid%3D229508%26kwid%3D902099%26mtid%3D824%26kw%3Dlg%26srcrot%3D710-53481-19255-0%26rvr_id%3D996349200533&_mwBanner=1

PS can you post a link to the 2012 part Kev?

Sure thing. Next time I'm on the laptop.

If you get curious before then try Harper's, MGcycle, or the AF1 websites.

[spowell]

Just checked mine...2014 V7R, 1500 miles.

12.59v key off position
12.2v key on position

FIrst start on topped up battery:
14.9 - 15.1v idle
15.1 - 15.16v @ 3000 rpm
15.1 - 15.16v @ 5000 rpm

After a 15 min ride:
14.7- 15.1v idle
15.1 - 15.16v @ 3000 rpm
15.1 - 15.16v @ 5000 rpm

12.77v key off

[ponti_33609]

Here is mine. Before start reading was 12.38v

Think mine is ok. This was after about a ten min ride.

[Cam3512]

When I tested mine after a ride, it appeared all was well within range.  However, we kept the meter on and the voltage GRADUALLY rose up to just over 15V.

[pikipiki]

So its like this.
pre 2012 bikes have a regulated output of 15.1v (14.95-15.15) and a 350w alternator (dry).
2012-2013 bikes may have a regulator with output around 15.45v - 15.5v still with the 350w dry alternator.
Racers are less likely to have the high voltage output R/R
around 2014 all bikes change to a 270w wet alternator the regulator changes too and these bikes show around 14.4v regulated output.

If you have an earlier bike 15.1v is a bit high and might shorten battery life but its not caused any problem.
If you have a 2012/2013 bike you should check and its best to change it for piece of mind.

[Cam3512]

So its like this.
pre 2012 bikes have a regulated output of 15.1v (14.95-15.15) and a 350w alternator (dry).
2012-2013 bikes may have a regulator with output around 15.45v - 15.5v still with the 350w dry alternator.
Racers are less likely to have the high voltage output R/R
around 2014 all bikes change to a 270w wet alternator the regulator changes too and these bikes show around 14.4v regulated output.

If you have an earlier bike 15.1v is a bit high and might shorten battery life but its not caused any problem.
If you have a 2012/2013 bike you should check and its best to change it for piece of mind.

Here in the US, 2014 bikes have the dry 350W alternator.  2015 on had the 270W wet.  Be careful about putting out inaccurate "It's like this" information...

[Kev m]

So its like this.
pre 2012 bikes have a regulated output of 15.1v (14.95-15.15) and a 350w alternator (dry).
2012-2013 bikes may have a regulator with output around 15.45v - 15.5v still with the 350w dry alternator.
Racers are less likely to have the high voltage output R/R
around 2014 all bikes change to a 270w wet alternator the regulator changes too and these bikes show around 14.4v regulated output.

If you have an earlier bike 15.1v is a bit high and might shorten battery life but its not caused any problem.
If you have a 2012/2013 bike you should check and its best to change it for piece of mind.

Not exactly.

And much of what I'm saying (and others are saying) is conjecture based on limited observation.

My guesses so far:

N7/B7/V7C and early racers (~2011) have the dry stator, and a regulator with a narrow stator output plug (2 terminals close together). Euromotoelectrics suggests the regulator on these is set to 15.1 or 15.5 +/- 0.5V. I haven't checked the factory manual but guess it will read similar to the next generation manual. But observations between here and Guzzitech suggest most test in the 14.something output range.

~2012-13 (EU/WORLD) & ~2013-14 (US) 1TB Stone/Special/Racer + maybe late 2TB Racers (~2012 US, maybe world) use a similar dry stator and regulator, but different part number on regulator (and presumably stator though I haven't checked yet) that uses a wide stator output plug (it's actually a 3-pin plug with the center terminal missing). Service manual suggests an operating range of 13-15 volts, but I suspect the regulator was spec'd similar to the previous generation for operation in the low to mid 15V range. Advertising to the 2 threads a good number of these are testing around 15.1-15.5 volts.

A few of these have shown damaged regulators and/or harnesses (not sure which is the chicken or which the egg) which tested at 16-17 volts. Some of those damaged the ECU and/or CAM sensor before discovery.

The newest wet alternator models use a 3-phase stator and regulator that seem to mostly be testing in the 14.something range and are problem few. BUT there may be one or two reports of overcharging and damaged harnesses (again not sure what's the chicken or egg here).

What no one knows for sure yet is if operation in the low 15's was intentional or is really problematic long term except for probably shortening battery life.

Todd at Guzzitech feels voltage should be limited to 14.4 which is consistent with the old/traditional info from most lead acid battery manufacturers.

Yuasa states in their 2014 manual available online that charging systems for their AGM batteries should be 14.4-14.8 volts so I'm thinking that range is fine and perhaps MG wasn't completely out of line if they spec'd a regulator that max charged at 15.1 or so.

What I can't figure out is why a number of the late-model dry alternator bikes are testing OK, unless the regulator was supposed to top out around 15 and then drop into the 14's when draw from the battery reduced.

It's possible that the regulators testing high just failed, or were always faulty. It's also possible some other factor, like damaged batteries are effecting the operation. But so far it seems everyone who replaces the regulator's are good.

We'll know more soon when I install a new regulator on a system with a battery that is definitely showing wear.

[pikipiki]

Regarding the connectors kev,

This is my connector (from a 2008 bike), I think this is the connector reported on the later bikes?
It is not the narrow side by side connector!
whats more my r/r has in addition to the model no 434 406040 marked on it what apears to be a year and week of manufacture - 2006! I guess parts may stay on the shelf for a while in the guzzi factory add that bikes being registered upto 2 years after manufacture?



in my post above I was saying from reading the thread and what others are saying that the R/R which are showing ~15.4v seem to be fitted to the last dry alternator bikes (but there was a suggestion not racers?)
checking mine I had everything from 14.95 to 15.1 but never 15.4

[pikipiki]

posted for comment (not as recommendation)

I know voltage drop would vary with current draw from bike but 0.2v each way is that abig deal?

Ok I know there are better solutions in the form of alternate regulator but I thought what if you stuck with the original which is regulating a little high and wanted to drop the voltage by around 0.5v.
I figured that a little resistance between the R/R earth wires and the bikes earth would lower the voltage and that it would be possible to snip the two green earth wires and insert a resistor and that such a resistor could be made for about $5
The regulator body is not earthed and putting resistor on +ve would be more of a risk for shorts.

I found everything required in the garage and made a resistor in 10 minutes (actualllly took a while to fine that roll of canthal) wrapped 14 times at 2 1/4 inch so 28 strands (resistance about 5.5ohm per ft) so i made a 0.04ohm resistor. think bikes electrics are about 1ohm.?

think Id spend more time checking and make a tidier resistor if i were to try this. resistor would sit a top the r/r in air flow.
should disipate about 5watts, think although get hot should stay below 100 degrees Celsius so can use shrink wrap.
canthal

[rbm]

The current returning to the regulator through the ground connection is the same amount as delivered by the alternator to the load.  Assuming the bike draws about 216W from the alternator, the R/R is also carrying the current which that power represents, 216W/12V = 18A.  That current is delivered to the various paralleled loads on the vehicle (lights, ignition, battery, etc.) and once again combines through the frame and returns to the alternator from where it was generated.  Your home-made 0.2 Ohm resistor in series with the ground lead has to dissipate (18)² x 0.2 = 64 Watts.  It would burn out like a fuse if it could only handle 5 Watts of power.  If it blew quickly, the heat would not damage anything.  I'd predict that it more likely would heat up like a light bulb and eventually scorch or start a fire as heat was transferred to nearby parts.

Your resistor will drop voltage proportional to the current draw of the motorcycle.  If you want to experiment, use a high power rectifier diode with 50A - 80A forward current capability.  A diode exhibits a constant 0.7V drop when used in a forward direction, independent of the current flowing through it.  You'd still need to heat sink the diode to dissipate the power loss.

[pikipiki]

The current returning to the regulator through the ground connection is the same amount as delivered by the alternator to the load.  Assuming the bike draws about 216W from the alternator, the R/R is also carrying the current which that power represents, 216W/12V = 18A.  That current is delivered to the various paralleled loads on the vehicle (lights, ignition, battery, etc.) and once again combines through the frame and returns to the alternator from where it was generated.  Your home-made 0.2 Ohm resistor in series with the ground lead has to dissipate (18)² x 0.2 = 64 Watts.  It would burn out like a fuse if it could only handle 5 Watts of power.  If it blew quickly, the heat would not damage anything.  I'd predict that it more likely would heat up like a light bulb and eventually scorch or start a fire as heat was transferred to nearby parts

Your resistor will drop voltage proportional to the current draw of the motorcycle.  If you want to experiment, use a high power rectifier diode with 50A - 80A forward current capability.  A diode exhibits a constant 0.7V drop when used in a forward direction, independent of the current flowing through it.  You'd still need to heat sink the diode to dissipate the power loss.

my home made resistor can be made to handle as many amps as required. I specified 0.04 ohm ( you cant measure that you have to calculate based on the wires resistance) I thought 28 strands would be enough for 30a @ 15v. if wrong more strands and longer wire required.
5w is what heat i think will be disipated by your calc 12w. 30ft wire on a role the right resistor can be made to drop 15.1 to 14.4-14.8 depending on what the bike is drawing. dont want to burn more than 10w

edit: unsure about the diode idea, my idea was to be able to make something tunable to requirement although 0.7v might be right drop, got to think if diode would have to be on the +ve because of how r/r works might loose a phase of recifier or messup the way the regulator shunts if on the ground?