2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll

[rbm]

Series regulation instead of shunt?  That just sounds better.  Any source for the 847?

Series is better.  Comparison of FH012 shunt versus Compu-fire series

847 available through Roadster Cycle and through Suzuki as OEM #32800-31J00.

The Compu-fire 55150 single phase series regulator might be an interesting alternative.  It's higher current capacity than the FH020AA and price competitive with the SH847 and the kits from Roadster Cycle.  Available through Amazon.

[Kev m]

assuming battery is ok and not going to guzzle all the charge because confusing wierdness might happen if the system is overloaded:
15v-15.4v working as designed and sub optimal
15.4 up its broken.
varying voltages (more than 0.5v) something is wrong
under 15v on an OEM r/r check wiring.

Not for nothing, but the OEM service manual says 13-15 is normal.

Most tech references I've read (which are written around lead acid, not AGM batteries which seem to tolerate a higher charge longer) suggest 14.4 is acceptable and much higher is no desired.

Some AGM service references seem to suggest up to 14.8 is acceptable on AGM.

Where are you getting that 15-15.4 should be acceptable and why?

And are you suggesting someone getting 15.1-15.4 shouldn't replace their RR?

[drlapo]

It looks like a $60 VR for a 98 to 02 HD big twin will work.
Appears to be a shunt type and single phase

[rbm]

Thanks for that.  Do we know if the SH847 will work in a two phase system?

The SH847 will work in a single phase system (two-wire alternator) but it was designed for use in a three-phase Delta system (three-wire alternator).  Consequently, one has to derate the current capacity of the device by about 30% to account for the lack of use of one of the bridge rectifying diodes.  Thus the 50A max current capacity of the SH847 for a three-phase system translates to 30A max current capacity for a single-phase system.

[Kev m]

The recommended limitation for charging LiFePO4 batteries, such as Shorai, is 3.65V per cell. For a 12V vehicle system this equates to a 4 cell battery x 3.65V =  14.6V. According to battery manufacturers, LiFePO4 will tolerate a charging voltage up to 3.70V per cell (14.8V) with a very slight degradation in lifespan of the battery. Lead acid batteries, including flooded cell and AGM, have an optimal charge rate of 3.65-3.70V per cell (14.6V-14.8V) as with LiFePO4.  Absolute maximum tolerances for lead acid batteries are possibly 0.2V higher than LiFePO4 at 3.85V per cell, for a 4-cell battery = 15.4V but will seriously degrade the life of the battery.

You're confusing me with 4-cell LiFePo batteries in this discussion.

and wouldn't 3.7 volts per cell = 22.2 volts on a standard 6-cell lead acid or AGM?

Everything I've researched in the past week or so (because of this) suggests that most traditional lead acid battery manufacturers recommend 14.4V as max regulated charge rate by modern automotive/cycle charge systems.

A few sources specifically cite AGMs as sometimes benefiting (especially if deep cycling) as high as 14.8.

And again, even MG suggest 13-15 is considered in spec, even 15.1 SHOULD mean an RR is operating out of spec according to their own service manuals (meaning would qualify for warranty replacement).

I guess I'm wondering

A: Why so many seem to be testing right at 15.4 +/- 0.1v ?
B: Why Pik seems to think 15.1-15.4 should be considered ok?
C: If Pik would keep his RR if it was testing at 15.1-15.4?

I do understand that traditional wet lead acid or AGM batteries CAN tolerate higher charge loads when discharged, but for what amount of time. And since the V7 charging system doesn't seem to use a sensing circuit to reduce the charge once the battery is topped up, why should we risk higher charging rates than 14.4-14.8?

Do my questions make sense or am I missing something here?

[pikipiki]

what I think and I may be wrong, for the milage most owners do 15-15.4v will see your battery still last the warantee period of 2 years. 14.4 might highlight minor electical problems like bad earths  that would otherwise be warantee claims. A lot of bike owners dont even keep there bikes 2 years. V7 is a euro A2 bike.
what you done Kev is fit the elecrical system eqivilent of Ohlins. A known quantity built to a high specification. now you know exactly what voltage you should get. OEM is cheap I tried to look how to build an r/r (I'm wierd like that) and found you get zener diodes marked BZX55C13 and BZX55C15 for 13v and 15v data sheet gave range of about 0.5v like these ere not precision bits? now I was probably jumping to conclusions but i thought the 14 useful one for a simple circuit is not there? now before we get in a rage how guzzi sold us crap, some mopeds dont even or not so long ago didnt have regulators, only recifiers so flat out might go 17v into tiny battery. Older Ducatis and guzzis suffered bad earths and voltage drops.
I think max just over 15v will be hard on your battery like stock shocks are hard on the ass but I doubt it would lead to ecu and other component failure.

I think the change for better r/r is safe not sorry and do not disagree with your decision to swap.

[Kev m]

For the most part that all makes sense.

I mean, I could see why they might have wanted to keep charge current up to prevent other problems (like bad grounds).

But it's not like ALL bikes are testing above 15. Some presumably stock bikes are testing fine (see Pocphil from ClevelandMoto's earlier post):

Ok, checked 4 bikes today.
2012 V7 Classic 21,000 miles:  Idle 12.75  Revving 14.60
2013 V7 Special 1200 miles:   Idle 13.45  Revving 14.72
2013 V7 Racer 4900 miles: (Rexxer Maps) Idle 12.65  Revving 14.29
2015 V7 Stone Mk2 240 miles: Idle 12.80 Revving 14.20

Now I'm not 100% certain the 2012 has the same regulator, and I'm pretty sure the 2015 Stone has a different charging system and regulator (reportedly has 7 wires, and I belive it is a 3-phase with the wet stator).

But if that data is good, that suggests the early 1TB motors (2012-13 in the EU/2013-14 in the US) weren't purposely designed to charge at 15.4.

So WHY are so many testing above 15 (and at about that exact rate, making it SEEM like it was designed to).

I'm not suggesting you (or anyone) has an answer for sure.

But I'm looking for theories that fit better.

I mean, I can accept your theory for why they say 15 is the top end of the in spec range (I could see 14.8 being the original target for this RR).

That said, they DID make a change to a lower output, but 3-phase stator with the wet alternator and maybe overcharging WAS the reason for it).

<shrugs>

Sorry, I guess I still have more questions than answers because I want to know the hows and whys, even though I have made up my mind to replace the RR with an aftermarket replacement at this point.

[rbm]

Ok, so I went back and did more homework.  Take a look at this graph:


Ignore the blue line and left-hand scale.  The red line shows the ideal charge for an AGM battery over time, from charging a completely depleted battery on the left through to full charge in the middle to maintenance on the right, at room temperature.  The graph shows that bulk charging should apply voltage across the terminals up to a maximum of 2.45V per cell. For a 12V motorcycle battery, that's 2.45V x 6 cells = 14.7V.  Once fully charged,the voltage should be dropped to 2.3V/cell (13.8V).  Furthermore this charging pattern should be altered for different ambient temperatures.  A modern bench charger with an AGM setting can easily duplicate this ideal curve.

A motorcycle charging system cannot duplicate this ideal charge pattern, so it's regulator has to approximate it by supplying the battery with a constant voltage that averages this curve.  The average voltage should be about 2.37V/cell (14.22V).

A charger putting out more than 15V is potentially destroying the life in the battery.

[jas67]

That said, they DID make a change to a lower output, but 3-phase stator with the wet alternator and maybe overcharging WAS the reason for it).
<shrugs>

Over charging is NOT a reason to switch to a lower output alternator.     That is a reason to switch to a better regulator.    Even if the alternator is capable of 1,000 Watts of output, it won't over charge the battery if the regulator does its job and keeps the voltage below 14.7 volts.

Alternator do not produce their rated output (Watts) no matter what, they produce what is drawn by a load.   Now, a permanent magnet alternator will produce a higher VOLTAGE at no load, but, the AMPs drawn will only be what is drawn (and, of course, Watts is Volts X Amps).
The regulator's job is to drop the voltage.    This can be done in a linear fashion much like a linear audio amplifier, where the power dissipated in the regulator is the total load current (AMPs) X the voltage drop across the regulator, which is the alternator output voltage minus the regulated voltage (preferably around 14.4 volts).    Now, the output voltage of the alternator will be highest when the load is lightest, and will be lowest when the most load is being draw.  When at maximum output, it is likely that it might not even be 14.4, and the regulator can then drop the voltage the least (still, usually about 0.5 volts or more).

So, say the load on the alternator (after the regulator) is loaded lightly, around 150 watts, and it's unregulated voltage is 21 volts.     If the regulated output is 14 Volts (for easy math), the current being drawn is 150 watts / 14 volts = 10.7 AMPs.     The voltage drop across the regulator would be 7 Volts, this the power dissipated in regulator is 10.7 watts * 7 volts or about 75 watts.    At full load of 380 watts (about 27 amps @ 14 volts regulator output), the alternator output is likely only about 15 volts.     The drop across the regulator would be 1 volt.   The power dissipated across the regulator would be 1 volt * 27 amps = 27 watts.

All of this assumes a linear regulator.    Do we know that these regulators are linear, or could they be switching regulators.

The power supplies that I deal with in the control systems for industrial equipment, and also those used in most electronic devices these days are what is known as switching power supplies (and have switching regulators in them).

Without going into the theory operation (I can if you want me to), switching regulators are wonderful, because they drop the voltage while dissipating much less power.    They actually have the capability of drawing a lower amount of  amps at a higher voltage from the source (alternator in the case of a vehicle), and outputting a higher current at a lower voltage.   These are more efficient, because much less power is wasted as heat.     There are even switching regulators known as buck-boost regulators that can step up the voltage (output current would then be less than input current).

So -- my question is, what type of regulators are used on the V7?

And, what type are used on other makes of bikes, and the alternatives suggested in this thread?

Sorry, I guess I still have more questions than answers because I want to know the hows and whys, even though I have made up my mind to replace the RR with an aftermarket replacement at this point.

[canuguzzi]

Just an observation, basically, there are:

Numerous different testing procedures
Numerous different types of voltmeters
Batteries of varying age, condition and state of charge
Wiring of varying age, condition
Many different sources as to what excessive charging voltage is or is not
Speculation as to whether batteries have been damaged or not and if so, why
Many opinions of what voltage is ok, what is not
Some fretting and concerns over 1/10ths of a volt

all conducted by different people with no consistent guidelines as how to do any of it.

Maybe some coordination and standardization is in order?
 

[Guzzidad]

   And after seven pages of discussion and theory I have yet to see if anyone has just tried, as I have suggested, to disconnect the headlight bulb and then check regulation. Works on my bike but interested if the V7 reacts the same way. I really want to know because a V7 may be in my near future.

[pikipiki]

   And after seven pages of discussion and theory I have yet to see if anyone has just tried, as I have suggested, to disconnect the headlight bulb and then check regulation. Works on my bike but interested if the V7 reacts the same way. I really want to know because a V7 may be in my near future.

sorry to add more speculation, some bikes have an r/r with a voltage sense wire, this is usually wired through the ignition switch. If your headlight I wired through ignition then removing the bulb could have an effect on the r/r output.
I would like to test v7 r/r with different loads, I just have not got around to it.

[Kev m]

Fwiw Jay is running an LED headlight on one or both of his V7s that tested basically the same as mine +/- 0.1V

[pikipiki]

One more bit of confusion:

Alternator = 270w a non mosfet R/R I understand will always use 5-10% of power on its shunt circuit.

This is my guess at the power required by the bike:
High beam           55
Rear/Number plate   5
Brake light           21
Instrument panel   2
ECU                           25
Fuel pump           55
Electric ignition           40
Battery Charging    ~

Total without brake light 182w but these are 12v ratings. Whats the headlight using at 15v?

182/12x15= 227.5 , now if you cant get more than 250 from alternator then next to no spare capacity.

So if a mosfet r/r drops the voltage slightly and consumes less power it looks like a good idea if you only have 270w alternator

[Kev m]

One more bit of confusion:

Alternator = 270w a non mosfet R/R I understand will always use 5-10% of power on its shunt circuit.

This is my guess at the power required by the bike:
High beam           55
Rear/Number plate   5
Brake light           21
Instrument panel   2
ECU                           25
Fuel pump           55
Electric ignition           40
Battery Charging    ~

Total without brake light 182w but these are 12v ratings. Whats the headlight using at 15v?

182/12x15= 227.5 , now if you cant get more than 250 from alternator then next to no spare capacity.

So if a mosfet r/r drops the voltage slightly and consumes less power it looks like a good idea if you only have 270w alternator

According to SIB 270W is for the 3-phase RR and wet alternator US 2015+ including V7II.

I don't believe any of them have tested out of range, but there are too many posts for me to say without checking them all lol.

I'd be surprised if the V7II VR works with the '13-'14 (USA) models.  Those have a 350W dry alternator whereas the '15 V7 and '16 V7II models have a 270W wet alternator.  I believe the cabling is also different.

[pikipiki]

 Ah that makes sense I had thought the 270 was on the later engine. So the 350 carried over when the engine was changed.

[Kev m]

Ah that makes sense I had thought the 270 was on the later engine. So the 350 carried over when the engine was changed.

Which engine change, oh do you mean the first change to single TB, then yes.

To be clear (I think I've got this right now):

2012-13 (EU)/2013-14 (US), 1TB V7: 350W, dry, single phase stator and 6-wire RR.

2014+ (EU)/2015+ (US) 1TB V7 & V7II: 270W, wet, 3-phase stator w/ corresponding 7-wire RR

[canuguzzi]

One more bit of confusion:

Alternator = 270w a non mosfet R/R I understand will always use 5-10% of power on its shunt circuit.

This is my guess at the power required by the bike:
High beam           55
Rear/Number plate   5
Brake light           21
Instrument panel   2
ECU                           25
Fuel pump           55
Electric ignition           40
Battery Charging    ~

Total without brake light 182w but these are 12v ratings. Whats the headlight using at 15v?

182/12x15= 227.5 , now if you cant get more than 250 from alternator then next to no spare capacity.

So if a mosfet r/r drops the voltage slightly and consumes less power it looks like a good idea if you only have 270w alternator

Don't forget what got this started, heated gloves not working.

According to the above, the charging system can't keep up without being on the fringe of leaving the battery in a deficit state of charge.

You'll get home, turn off the engine and now the battery will sit there, not fully charged (one of the worst things you can do). The next time you head out, it just gets worse.

[sib]

Which engine change, oh do you mean the first change to single TB, then yes.

To be clear (I think I've got this right now):

2012-13 (EU)/2013-14 (US), 1TB V7: 350W, dry, single phase stator and 6-wire RR.

2014+ (EU)/2015+ (US) 1TB V7 & V7II: 270W, wet, 3-phase stator w/ corresponding 7-wire RR

Are you sure about this, Kev?  My V7II wiring diagram shows only two wires connecting the alternator to the regulator.  The regulator actually has a three-terminal connector to the alternator, but only two of the terminals have wires, either at the end going to the alternator or the end going to the regulator (at least on the schematic I'm looking at).  If you're looking at a different schematic, I like to know.  Thanks, Sam

[Kev m]

Are you sure about this, Kev?  My V7II wiring diagram shows only two wires connecting the alternator to the regulator.  The regulator actually has a three-terminal connector to the alternator, but only two of the terminals have wires, either at the end going to the alternator or the end going to the regulator (at least on the schematic I'm looking at).  If you're looking at a different schematic, I like to know.  Thanks, Sam

.

No I haven't verified this in person on a V7II (or wet alternator V7) BUT I'm pretty sure at least one owner in the mirror thread on Guzzitech reported that from his bike and not the schematic (which would be an easy literature mistake to make).

Perhaps PokeyJ or someone here can confirm.

NP - the OP that started this was over-charging and the presumption was an over-voltage protection circuit to protect the gloves and wearer (perhaps from possible burns). The OP's same gloves work normally on his Vespa.

[Kev m]

SIB, from Guzzitech:

HOLD THE PRESSES! the 2015 and 16 have 7 wires. the white plug has 3 big yellow ones not 2.  About 12 gauge. the black has 2 red with white stripe and 2 solid green. my guess 14 gauge.
other things I have seen compared to a 2013 are different rear shock mfg. with totally different springs and one adjusting color. air filter is under the seat with I think 4 screws to hold on cover similar to a Stelvio. at least it shows the MFG is making some changes for the better.

[swordds]

The OP probably gave up on the thread after page three and figured he would no longer need heated gloves because summer would arrive before any conclusions could be drawn here. That is what I love about this forum!  Ask for some simple thoughts on something like using an open trailer to bring home a new bike on salted roads and you're liable to end up with name calling and rock throwing and fist fights and who knows what else!  This is more fun than a good book :-).

[pikipiki]

Regarding the heated gloves, the figures I used above were a bit of a guess but some alternate figures can be found below although I dont trust these because if you went by these ones a V7II with abs would require more power than the alternator puts out? ABS must use a good few watts? Im guessing some stuff has been getting more efficient recently and lower power alternator is about saving power too. whatever the case theres not going to be any excess power for gloves.
http://www.powerlet.com/learningCenter/excessCapacity

[pikipiki]

Been doing some soldering
as my white connetor was damaged by heat from poor connection

image upload no limit

[swordds]

 OK, so I have transferred the plug for my heated gloves from my Suzuki TU250X to my V7II and even though it is 76 degrees here tonight when I ride my bike to the coast for dinner I will wear my heated gloves and will let you know if they worked when I get home.

[pikipiki]

OK, so I have transferred the plug for my heated gloves from my Suzuki TU250X to my V7II and even though it is 76 degrees here tonight when I ride my bike to the coast for dinner I will wear my heated gloves and will let you know if they worked when I get home.

Are they thermostatically controlled?

[pikipiki]

arent we playing a little fast and loose with ohms law here.  power consumed is the same regardless of voltage (otherwise my headlight would get brighter from 12v to 15v.  So 55W headlamp at 15 volts draws less current. In your example you have the currents the same at 12 v AND 15 v.  I think i'm correct.  I've been fooling with this calc for 5 minutes and is only P=IV

If what you were saying were correct there would be no difference between a 12v bulb and a mains bulb they would be inter changable.
Bulbs have resistance, 55w is the rating at 12v.
v=ir i=v/r p=iv, admittedly as the filament gets hotter that does effect the resistance which may increase slightly. bulbs and heating elements will use more power at higher voltage.
The point you make though may be correct for the ecu and the ignition system and other sophisticated components, it may be true for led lights because leds seem to be either on or off?

[canuguzzi]

If what you were saying were correct there would be no difference between a 12v bulb and a mains bulb they would be inter changable.
Bulbs have resistance, 55w is the rating at 12v.
v=ir i=v/r p=iv, admittedly as the filament gets hotter that does effect the resistance which may increase slightly. bulbs and heating elements will use more power at higher voltage.
The point you make though may be correct for the ecu and the ignition system and other sophisticated components, it may be true for led lights because leds seem to be either on or off?

Actually, most LEDs made for 12 vdc system can operate within a pretty wide range , often from single digit voltage up to about 30 vdc.

Many new LEDs are also dimmable so they will consume more or less current depending on how much voltage gets to the LED.

Take those LED lights they make for cars, driving and such type of lights. They operate up to 30 vdc and don't get brighter with an increase of voltage from 12 to 30. They don't consume the same current at 30 vdc as if they are at 12 vdc. To be clear, they wouldn't draw 1.0 amp at 30 vdc but would at 12 vdc.

This is why measuring volts only gives you only a partial answer to most questions.

[pikipiki]

The charactaristics of Led lights is way beyond me,

For incandecant



The point I was trying to make: alternator generates watts, lights and most understandable stuff consume more power if you feed a higher voltage.
I probably should not have presented it as linear relationship
Efficiently regulating voltage prevents wasting watts.

[jas67]

Fwiw Jay is running an LED headlight on one or both of his V7s that tested basically the same as mine +/- 0.1V

Both my V7's have LED headlights that draw about 20W on low, and 25W on high beam.