Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: leafman60 on February 28, 2017, 07:10:05 AM
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From a very knowledgeable source, a renowned Guzzi dealer mechanic, I have learned that the "new" 6-speed V7's are showing some severe problems with the factory set-up of the crankshaft inside the crankcase.
Apparently Guzzi is replacing engines and some dealers have already swapped out 5 or 6 motors.
Has anyone experienced this snafu?
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It's been covered here and elsewhere. Some V7II engines were assembled with a missing thrust washer/bearing at the crankshaft, and those bikes exhibit an unstable clutch adjustment, due to the crankshaft eating its way rearward through the soft aluminum crankcase casting. Although I haven't come across any official announcement, dealers apparently have been informed of the problem and are replacing the defective engines on warranty. We currently don't know how common/rare the problem is, I'm just glad it doesn't affect my V7II Stone, which has almost 14,000 happy miles on it.
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From a very knowledgeable source, a renowned Guzzi dealer mechanic, I have learned that the "new" 6-speed V7's are showing some sever problems with the factory set-up of the crankshaft inside the crankcase.
Apparently Guzzi is replacing engines and some dealers have already swapped out 5 or 6 motors.
Has anyone experienced this snafu?
Is first april coming sooner this year? :grin: No, really, what are the "problems"?
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It's been covered here and elsewhere. Some V7II engines were assembled with a missing thrust washer/bearing at the crankshaft, and those bikes exhibit an unstable clutch adjustment, due to the crankshaft eating its way rearward through the soft aluminum crankcase casting. Although I haven't come across any official announcement, dealers apparently have been informed of the problem and are replacing the defective engines on warranty. We currently don't know how common/rare the problem is, I'm just glad it doesn't affect my V7II Stone, which has almost 14,000 happy miles on it.
I may have misunderstood but the way it way explained to me is that some engines, even with the thrust washer, were showing problems.
Ahhh- I found a thread from last year.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=84221.0;nowap
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I'd be curious to hear from a dealer. There are threads here and on Guzzitech.
I initially understood it as being explained by missing thrust washers.
But I've also heard others explain thrust has always been a potential issue on the smallblocks and that oiling was improved over the years for that reason.
Now I thought it was just a case that instances of incorrect assembly showed up by the ability to adjust the clutch slowly disappearing as the crankshaft literally moved back toward the clutch in the block because of the lack of thrust washers.
But I might have heard some speculation (or maybe this was in my own head) that incorrect adjustment of the clutch (insufficient play, leaving too much preload on the clutch itself) was effecting the crankshaft even if the correct thrust washers were in play? That would seem to be a stretch, I would think it would just damage the clutch from slipping over time.
If that speculation is bunk, then I would think improper assembly (missing or a problem with the thrust washers would be to blame and nothing more).
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Can clutch be adjusted properly if there is no thrust washer? I would assume that wire becomes to long otherwise...
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Can clutch be adjusted properly if there is no thrust washer? I would assume that wire becomes to long otherwise...
If I'm picturing this properly, if there's no thrust washer (we're talking on the crankshaft) the crankshaft itself moves backwards toward the clutch as it chews into the block over the first few hundred, maybe thousand miles. When that happens it sounds like there's no physical way for the clutch to get enough throw to properly release anymore.
But perhaps someone who has actually experienced it or better seen the smallblock motor torn down can clarify.
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We have a very knowledgeable Board member who can give details on this. Maybe he will speak up.
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Yes, the issue is ongoing. Piaggio is getting to the heart of this but problem bikes are still coming over cross the pond. Could be ones sitting on the showroom floor from 6mo ago now sold. Some dealers have had a few bad ones, some more than a few. Not to worry they'll be replaced under warranty.
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Yes, the issue is ongoing. Piaggio is getting to the heart of this but problem bikes are still coming over cross the pond. Could be ones sitting on the showroom floor from 6mo ago now sold. Some dealers have had a few bad ones, some more than a few. Not to worry they'll be replaced under warranty.
So is it all a case of improper engine assembly?
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What sort of mileage do you need to do before the problem manifests itself?
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This is the best I found in the service manual..
(http://thumb.ibb.co/iVMj8v/crankshaft.png) (http://ibb.co/iVMj8v)
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What sort of mileage do you need to do before the problem manifests itself?
Problem happens right away some under 3000Kmi.So is it all a case of improper engine assembly?
I have no idea if sealer is getting in rear main oiling holes during block assembly or if one of the crank thrust pads is falling out on assembly( the later happened in mid 80's).
I'm sure that the Piaggio has pulled the bad blocks apart to look at them and sort it out. I have not inspected one.
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I have no idea if sealer is getting in rear main oiling holes during block assembly or if one of the crank thrust pads is falling out on assembly( the later happened in mid 80's).
I'm sure that the Piaggio has pulled the bad blocks apart to look at them and sort it out. I have not inspected one.
But you believe it's an assembly problem of some sort and not something that could be effected by say mal-adjustment of the clutch or some PDI related item. I was assuming it was an assembly problem but started to see some (probably panicked speculation, but couldn't see how it would occur). Just checking.
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This is the best I found in the service manual..
(http://thumb.ibb.co/iVMj8v/crankshaft.png) (http://ibb.co/iVMj8v)
Yes, it's those little half-circular thingies that go on either side of the rear main bearing. If one got left out or fell out, there would be nothing to prevent the crankshaft from grinding against the crankcase casting.
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Yeah, I also thought that one of these are potential problem. I am re-uploading this pic, because apparently it can't be opened (imgbb.com appears to be down).
Edit: I am looking at this shema... How is possible that crankshaft moves towards clutch if it is fixed vertically with chain in front and two connecting rods in between?? Now that doesn't make sense...
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2r6zkgi.png)
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Timing chain lets it flex somewhat. It will keep going until it trash's the pistons & rods too. Crank & rods will move on wrist pins till it gets to the end of the cut out on barrel sleeve. I had one go this far in the 80's.
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Thanks for posting, Steve. I was hoping you'd weigh in on this.
Having produced this basic engine for so many years, I am amazed that their quality control could allow something like this to occur.
*** edit** Why did I make such a comment? In reality, I am not amazed.
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Gidday all. I would advise V711 owners and any other Moto Guzzi owners to shift the gearbox into neutral as often as you can. DON'T sit at the traffic lights with the bike in gear. The combination of thrust and engine idle speed lowered oil pressure could load and stress the thrust enough to vapourise the oil out of the thrust bearing. Picture it in your imagination as you sit at the lights for 3 or 4 minutes. The V711 is very easy to shift into neutral and when you do do have to put it into first gear when the light goes green there is very little noise or mechanical jolt. I had a friend around to visit and when he put his CB1000RR into first I thought someone was shooting at me. The big Honda gives a loud clack and the bike jumps through the drive line. The V711 is noiseless if you pull the clutch and wait for a second or two. For those who disagree with my theory think about this. They will fail if the clutch is held in for an extended period of time. The question is how much time? Don't even try to find out.
Cheers. Voncrump
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dybnBF/V7_RUBBER_FROM_THE_TRACK.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dybnBF)
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My 2016 V7II Stone had this failure. Moto Guzzi and my dealer replaced the engine, under warranty, in less than two weeks. The only downside was that I had to go thru engine break-in again.
The problem will show up before it is time for first service at 600 miles. By 300 miles my clutch was dragging and I adjusted the cable at the lever. Another 100 miles and it needed adjustment again - but there wasn't enough adjustment at the lever so I did it at the engine end. I thought it was new cable stretch. When I took it in for first service I mention this to the service manager. He said "Oh, there are a few things we need to check." He called the next day and said "I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that we drained the oil and there was a lot of metal in it. The good news is that you are getting a new engine, under warranty."
There have been about a half dozen reports by owners of this issue on the various forums.
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It seems that the main cause of failures is thrust washers totally missing from the engine, As in never assembled properly. Or incorrect adjustment of the clutch causing the thrust to be loaded constantly. Don't take any risk and shift into neutral at the lights.
Cheers, voncrump
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Don't take any risk and shift into neutral at the lights.
Cheers, voncrump
Good point. To me the Thorington bearing they use on the Breva does not look over large, Even the 5 speeders go in to neutral easily if the bike is moving slightly. My clutch has hardly ever needed adjustment in something like 22,000 miles.
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I'm just thankfull that my 2015 V7 with 2500km doesn't have this problems. Yet. No clutch adjustment from kilometer zero. :bow:
Don't take any risk and shift into neutral at the lights.
Cheers, voncrump
I believe this is recommended practice for all clutches in all vehicles (but I'm sure driving school is not telling this to new candidates).
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As an old Shovelhead rider, you'd always want to get it into neutral while still moving, it was very difficult to find neutral at a dead stop. Leaving the clutch pulled in at a light would fatigue your arm. Having the bike in neutral would also help if you got tapped from behind and your arms knocked off the bars, at least the bike won't launch.
I've heard a few kids tell me they were taught to leave the bike in gear, so they could watch the mirrors and plan an escape if it looked like they were about to get rear ended.
Clutch throwout bearings have gotten cheesier over the years on a lot of vehicles, and they are loaded when the clutch is disengaged, so having the vehicle in neutral would result in less wear on the throwout bearing.
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I had a private conversation with a dealer a few months ago, and learned about this issue. He had a pile of V7 motors collecting dust in the side of his shop, it seems Piaggio doesn't want the old motors back. There will certainly be an endless supply of lightly used cylinder heads, cylinders and pistons available for these bike until the end of time...
I wouldn't get all worked up about this folks. Piaggio is taking care of the customers, and the dealers are getting really good at crabbing the small tonti frames...
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...I wouldn't get all worked up about this folks. Piaggio is taking care of the customers, and the dealers are getting really good at crabbing the small tonti frames...
Nonetheless, it would be nice if Piaggio would go public with the problem, and specify which VIN numbers might be affected. I'm pretty sure that if this issue were to occur with an automobile, the manufacturer would be under some legal obligation to do the same, and probably issue an official recall.
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Question.
When they replace the motor, do you then have a motor number that doesn't match the frame? Or, do they no longer use that system?
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Question.
When they replace the motor, do you then have a motor number that doesn't match the frame? Or, do they no longer use that system?
The (original) engine on my V7II Stone has a different, and shorter, number than the VIN/chassis/frame number.
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Nonetheless, it would be nice if Piaggio would go public with the problem, and specify which VIN numbers might be affected. I'm pretty sure that if this issue were to occur with an automobile, the manufacturer would be under some legal obligation to do the same, and probably issue an official recall.
I wonder if they even know which engines are affected (how could you, if one forget to insert washers on the assembly line?). Unless on some point they decided that thrust washer is no longer needed.
You can always try here: http://static.piaggio.com/recall/form-motoguzzi_en.html (http://static.piaggio.com/recall/form-motoguzzi_en.html)
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I adjusted my clutch play at the lever right after picking up my V7ii Special (yes, it started to drag after fulling warming up). Once done properly, I have not touched it in over 5000 miles. So I'm assuming this motor is ok.
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I've heard a few kids tell me they were taught to leave the bike in gear, so they could watch the mirrors and plan an escape if it looked like they were about to get rear ended.
This is what MSF was teaching when I took the beginner class in 2003.
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hate to be the bearer of bad news
but the thrust bearings are the same for a mk1 v35 all the way though to a brand new v9 bobber/roamer and the nocky crank / binding then pulling the clutch issue as been there since the first small blocks
guzzi did update the v65/v75 thrust bearings with an oil drilling but nothing more was done.
I have a v65 engine here that will lock solid when hot as the trust bearings were such a bad fit , a v7 classic / breva twin throttle body engine with a bright blue crank due to thrust bearing tolerances and worst off a v7 stone engine that has a trashed crank due to trust bearing problems.
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And here I was thinking of getting a V7 or V9... I will have to rethink that. Does this same problem exist with the 1400 engine?
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And here I was thinking of getting a V7 or V9... I will have to rethink that. Does this same problem exist with the 1400 engine?
i would not worry... buy one and enjoy... love my small block rabble.... but if you buy a new one and the engine slows or knocks when you pull the clutch in then it needs a new engine..
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Ian, do you have any proof that the failures you are citing are the RESULT of clutch mal-adjustment or a deficient design in the crankcase?
We've got people that post around here with 100,000 km on relatively late-model B7 or V7 smallblocks.
They didn't get that mileage because there is a grenade-like failure waiting to happen in all smallblock crankshafts in the form of the thrust bearings.
Now obviously there appears to be a recent string of VERY early failures that suggest something more than just a weak spot in design, but that's not the same as scaring everyone into believing there's an inherent defect in all of them.
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I had been searching for a V7 until I had a family issue and I just bought a less expensive older
California Stone. Still interested In The V7 and I don't see any wholesale dumping of them going on.
Most of the owners on this forum and Advrider love theirs. I hope someone comes up with an explanation
Of the extent of this issue, the V7 is MGs top seller and it's got to be important to them
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I personally think its down to poor assembly and or tolerances at the factory.... This causes the failures..
If you have adjusted the clutch incorrectly and is causing the clutch release mechanism to bind you will soon shatter the rear needle bearing and melt the push rod.. If your trust bearings had failed due to clutch miss adjustment the dealer would have been replacing the clutch release mechanism too... The v7 box from the pictures blow was a write off as it had eaten needle bearing remains
These pictures are from a v7 Classic that had been ridden for about 15mins after having a new clutch plate fitted and the clutch incorrectly adjusted... The push rod had friction welded its self the the flywheel center.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/guzziv65tt/1_zpskmojuc6m.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/guzziv65tt/media/1_zpskmojuc6m.jpg.html)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/guzziv65tt/2_zpsisfz6xgr.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/guzziv65tt/media/2_zpsisfz6xgr.jpg.html)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/guzziv65tt/3_zpshos87qcm.jpg) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/guzziv65tt/media/3_zpshos87qcm.jpg.html)
My personal bug bear is the put less oil in your small block as you should not get oil in the air box... running with 1.5L of oil is not a good idea...Oil will pool in the base of the airbox as its a oil vapour condenser...
use good quality 10w60 in hot countries and good 10w50 in colder countries.
look at part number 5 in this V9 engine part list
https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/5722752/v-9-v-9-v9-roamer-emea-chassis-number-prefix-zgulh000-2016-v9-roamer-emea-chassis-number-prefix-zgulh000-all/drive-shaft
part number GU27066460
https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/view/GU27066460
nothing has changed for years..... crank thrust bearing goes back to v65 in the late 70's
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Ian, do you have any proof that the failures you are citing are the RESULT of clutch mal-adjustment or something other than a deficient design in the crankcase?
We've got people that post around here with 100,000 km on relatively late-model B7 or V7 smallblocks.
They didn't get that mileage because there is a grenade-like failure waiting to happen in all smallblock crankshafts in the form of the thrust bearings.
Now obviously there appears to be a recent string of VERY early failures that suggest something more than just a weak spot in design, but that's not the same as scaring everyone into believing there's an inherent defect in all of them.
These very early failures are NOT a design defect; they are an assembly defect. The part pointed out in Reply #15 was left out in an unknown number of engine. If you have an engine that the part was left out of you will know it in the first 600 miles, and probably by 300 miles. The way you will know is that the clutch is grossly out of adjustment, probably to the point where there is not enough adjustment available at the lever. You will notice that the clutch is not fully disengaging when you pull in the lever.
Fortunately Moto Guzzi is not only aware of the problem but is promptly providing new engines and installation under warranty. Two weeks from my dealer knowing about my bike's problem to being back on the road again.
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These very early failures are NOT a design defect; they are an assembly defect. The part pointed out in Reply #15 was left out in an unknown number of engine. If you have an engine that the part was left out of you will know it in the first 600 miles, and probably by 300 miles. The way you will know is that the clutch is grossly out of adjustment, probably to the point where there is not enough adjustment available at the lever. You will notice that the clutch is not fully disengaging when you pull in the lever.
Fortunately Moto Guzzi is not only aware of the problem but is promptly providing new engines and installation under warranty. Two weeks from my dealer knowing about my bike's problem to being back on the road again.
I agree completely.... luckily they are an easy engine to swap :-)
however its not a great design and has been a niggle since the first v50's
interesting reading :-
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/guzziv65tt/Screen%20Shot%202017-03-01%20at%2020.38.21_zps7nbjayuv.png) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/guzziv65tt/media/Screen%20Shot%202017-03-01%20at%2020.38.21_zps7nbjayuv.png.html)
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Yeah Red I get the current early failure problem but Ian seemed to be suggesting something more sinister.
I'm trying to separate the concept that the cause of the early failures being some fault (missing or out of spec thrust washers) from the suggestion that the thrust washers are somehow an Achilles heel or bad design.
Ian keeps drawing some tenuous lines between them.
But the fact that they haven't been changed in decades doesn't point to them as a weakness unless they are consistently failing under normal use and circumstances and I'm not aware that they are, but was inquiring if someone else was.
Edit- that said the page Ian has posted from Guzziology suggests perhaps the over use of the clutch or a maladjusted clutch (that constantly preloads) the crank could potentially cause additional wear too the thrust bearings. At least that's how I'm reading it. So maybe that's the connection Ian is trying to draw.
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The problem will show up before it is time for first service at 600 miles. By 300 miles my clutch was dragging and I adjusted the cable at the lever. Another 100 miles and it needed adjustment again - but there wasn't enough adjustment at the lever so I did it at the engine end. I thought it was new cable stretch. When I took it in for first service I mention this to the service manager. He said "Oh, there are a few things we need to check." He called the next day and said "I have good news and bad news. The bad news is that we drained the oil and there was a lot of metal in it. The good news is that you are getting a new engine, under warranty."
That is a comforting declaration.
I'm at about 550 miles, clutch feel is the same as new and it will go to the dealer for the 650 mile service on Tuesday with just over 700 miles on it.
I do hear minor clutch noise, idling in neutral, which goes away when I pull in the clutch.
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I do hear minor clutch noise, idling in neutral, which goes away when I pull in the clutch.
Yup, that's normal.
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I agree completely.... luckily they are an easy engine to swap :-)
however its not a great design and has been a niggle since the first v50's
interesting reading :-
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/guzziv65tt/Screen%20Shot%202017-03-01%20at%2020.38.21_zps7nbjayuv.png) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/guzziv65tt/media/Screen%20Shot%202017-03-01%20at%2020.38.21_zps7nbjayuv.png.html)
Interesting reading indeed from Guzziology. FWIW, the thrust washer pictured on the Stein-Dinse web site does seem to have the oil hole. It's asymmetrically positioned, and I haven't read anything (so far) stating which way the washers should be oriented, relative to their oil holes, when placed in their grooves in the crankcase, or whether it matters. The engine service manual is extremely vague about these washers, and after reading the relevant passages several times, I'm not sure it even mentions them at all.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/gUqE8v/27066460_copy.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gUqE8v)
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Yup, that's normal.
Good, thanks
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I have given my V7 stone some serious hard work. I even started a thread asking about how strong the engines are. The general consensus was that they are a pretty tough motor. Keep the clutch adjusted properly, keep the oil fresh, and go to it. I think it is significant that none of these problem engines have actually blown up. So some were assembled wrong, some were adjusted wrong. The rest are OK.
Cheers, voncrump.
Edit, what I mean is that through all of these dramas the motors are not firing con rods out left right and centre or seizing rock solid. My deduction is that they are a fundamentally solid motor.
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The engine service manual is extremely vague about these washers, and after reading the relevant passages several times, I'm not sure it even mentions them at all.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/gUqE8v/27066460_copy.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gUqE8v)
They are not. I was searching them also.
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I agree completely.... luckily they are an easy engine to swap :-)
however its not a great design and has been a niggle since the first v50's
interesting reading :-
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/guzziv65tt/Screen%20Shot%202017-03-01%20at%2020.38.21_zps7nbjayuv.png) (http://s44.photobucket.com/user/guzziv65tt/media/Screen%20Shot%202017-03-01%20at%2020.38.21_zps7nbjayuv.png.html)
So I was hoping to purchase a new V7iii later this year, and figured that the missing thrust washers would be a thing of the past on the new models. But here is info from 1989 (28 years ago) that this has been an ongoing issue for a very long time.
Ian, are you thinking that these bikes are not reliable? I remember having a Yamaha RD350 back in the day that a 10 cent o-ring needed to have a little square piece added to seal a key way on the crank or the motor would foul and frag, but that only took Yamaha a single year to solve. 28 years seems like a long time not to get it right.
That was a big appeal to me regarding Moto Guzzis, that the development did not move so fast that new problems were constantly arising, and that old problems would be solved. Is that not the case?
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So I was hoping to purchase a new V7iii later this year, and figured that the missing thrust washers would be a thing of the past on the new models. But here is info from 1989 (28 years ago) that this has been an ongoing issue for a very long time.
<snip>
That was a big appeal to me regarding Moto Guzzis, that the development did not move so fast that new problems were constantly arising, and that old problems would be solved. Is that not the case?
You see this is what I was worried about the way some people seem to be tying the two together.
Problems with design of the thrust washers in 1989 are not the same as a few fluke engines built without them or with bad ones in 2016.
The only possible tie I see here is that maybe riding your clutch or maladjusting it so it preloads it all the time might cause wear over time.
Neither is a reason not to get a smallblock.
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If this was a non-pattern of random "stuff happens" I'd agree. But I think it is just another manifestation of the same problem that has plagued MG for a long time, and has resulted in these smallblock problems as well as (to name a few) the hydro debacle, single-plate clutch failure and the more recent rollerization issue -- quality control and attention to detail. We laugh about partially-assembled bikes falling apart on the way home from purchasing, the lack of grease in bearings, plastic tail lights that aren't suitable for the heat of their bulbs, etc, but these are not unaviodable byproducts of the bikes' quirky personalities. They are failures of people to do their jobs. All of these are preventable, and the company has been unable to do so. If these bikes were made in China, they'd be the poster children for everything that's wrong with offshore manufacturing.
$0.02
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I am not too worried about it. At least, if there is a problem, it should show up very early in one's ownership, while the bike is still under warranty.
Presumably there are plenty of spare engines lying around, and Luigi likely has now received instruction in how to properly assemble these engines...
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If this was a non-pattern of random "stuff happens" I'd agree. But I think it is just another manifestation of the same problem that has plagued MG for a long time, and has resulted in these smallblock problems as well as (to name a few) the hydro debacle, single-plate clutch failure and the more recent rollerization issue -- quality control and attention to detail. We laugh about partially-assembled bikes falling apart on the way home from purchasing, the lack of grease in bearings, plastic tail lights that aren't suitable for the heat of their bulbs, etc, but these are not unaviodable byproducts of the bikes' quirky personalities. They are failures of people to do their jobs. All of these are preventable, and the company has been unable to do so. If these bikes were made in China, they'd be the poster children for everything that's wrong with offshore manufacturing.
$0.02
So I have not been poking around here long, but not sure there seem to be more problems with MG than say BMW or Ducati.
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Irrelevant. But the "Proud to be no sloppier than brand X" defense explains a lot. There was a time when being no worse than the competition wasn't the position a company hoped to be in. :embarrassed:
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So I have not been poking around here long, but not sure there seem to be more problems with MG than say BMW or Ducati.
Bingo! My other transportation is a 2004 Prius with 165,000+ trouble-free miles on it. There are Priuses around with three times that mileage. They are among the most reliable cars ever built. But you wouldn't know that if you visit the Prius forums, where there is a litany of horror stories, complaints about reliability, comparisons with other, supposedly more reliable and better built cars, etc. It's the nature of these forums that they attract these attitudes and participants. There are probably millions of satisfied Prius owners who haven't even heard of a Prius forum, just as there are probably thousands of Moto Guzzi owners who happily ride their bikes, blissfully unaware that this forum even exists.
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If this was a non-pattern of random "stuff happens" I'd agree. But I think it is just another manifestation of the same problem that has plagued MG for a long time, and has resulted in these smallblock problems as well as (to name a few) the hydro debacle, single-plate clutch failure and the more recent rollerization issue -- quality control and attention to detail. We laugh about partially-assembled bikes falling apart on the way home from purchasing, the lack of grease in bearings, plastic tail lights that aren't suitable for the heat of their bulbs, etc, but these are not unaviodable byproducts of the bikes' quirky personalities. They are failures of people to do their jobs. All of these are preventable, and the company has been unable to do so. If these bikes were made in China, they'd be the poster children for everything that's wrong with offshore manufacturing.
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You hit the nail squarely on the head.
I agree.
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If this was a non-pattern of random "stuff happens" I'd agree. But I think it is just another manifestation of the same problem that has plagued MG for a long time, and has resulted in these smallblock problems as well as (to name a few) the hydro debacle, single-plate clutch failure and the more recent rollerization issue -- quality control and attention to detail. We laugh about partially-assembled bikes falling apart on the way home from purchasing, the lack of grease in bearings, plastic tail lights that aren't suitable for the heat of their bulbs, etc, but these are not unaviodable byproducts of the bikes' quirky personalities. They are failures of people to do their jobs. All of these are preventable, and the company has been unable to do so. If these bikes were made in China, they'd be the poster children for everything that's wrong with offshore manufacturing.
$0.02
I also agree w/RK but he forgot the clutch hub disaster of the 80's. For 10yrs almost every one went bad and they were not covered under warranty. It took 15Kmi before it started as the warranty program was 6mo or 6Kmi. I don't think anything has changed only the management.
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Wow, starkly pessimistic viewpoints from a couple of guys with way more than the merely decade and a half I've been riding these things.
I can't say I fully disagree. I.E. that the company has had some stellar misses in my time.
But man these bikes make my heart sing.
I seem to have gotten a good one this time, but you guys are just confirming my plans to buy another Harley next time I add to the fleet and not play the Guzzi quality lottery.
:sad:
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Wow, starkly pessimistic viewpoints from a couple of guys with way more than the merely decade and a half I've been riding these things.
I can't say I fully disagree. I.E. that the company has had some stellar misses in my time.
But man these bikes make my heart sing.
I seem to have gotten a good one this time, but you guys are just confirming my plans to buy another Harley next time I add to the fleet and not play the Guzzi quality lottery.
:sad:
I agree with you too!
They do make your heart sing but the question is how much you are willing to put up with for that song.
.
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When you work in the back and all you see is the bad stuff, it affects your view.
What gets me is they are trying to market the Smallblock as a reliable BigBlock.
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When you work in the back and all you see is the bad stuff, it affects your view.
What gets me is they are trying to market the Smallblock as a reliable BigBlock.
Well, I know it's a small sample size (3 Guzzis since 2000), but my 1 smallblock has been so much more reliable than my 2 big blocks it's not funny. I mean it's seriously NOT FUNNY.
By about the same mileage both my big blocks had multiple parts failures/repairs. The Breva 1100 the worst of it with a clutch and 2 dashes that added up to something like 1/3 of the original purchase price. The Jackal was more nickel and diming but still it added up.
In contrast my smallblock got a voltage regulator prophylactically.
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At least, Moto Guzzi is stepping up to the plate on this clutch/thrust washer issue. I had a new engine in my V7II in two weeks time.
It took the BMW dealer, with factory help, four months to fix the stalling problem on my F800GS. In the mean time I bought a Stelvio. I have definitely switched brand loyalty.
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Bingo! My other transportation is a 2004 Prius with 165,000+ trouble-free miles on it. There are Priuses around with three times that mileage. They are among the most reliable cars ever built. But you wouldn't know that if you visit the Prius forums, where there is a litany of horror stories, complaints about reliability, comparisons with other, supposedly more reliable and better built cars, etc. It's the nature of these forums that they attract these attitudes and participants. There are probably millions of satisfied Prius owners who haven't even heard of a Prius forum, just as there are probably thousands of Moto Guzzi owners who happily ride their bikes, blissfully unaware that this forum even exists.
:1:
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At least, Moto Guzzi is stepping up to the plate on this clutch/thrust washer issue. I had a new engine in my V7II in two weeks time.
It took the BMW dealer, with factory help, four months to fix the stalling problem on my F800GS. In the mean time I bought a Stelvio. I have definitely switched brand loyalty.
:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
Optimism it is.
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Frightening threads for all V7II owners. I own a 2015 V7II with 2200 miles up till now. Hoping it will be OK
My only contribution on this matter will be a picture of mounting of thrust half rings and some dimensions.
Axial play of crankshaft should be 0.35-0,4 mm 0,0157-0,0157"
(http://thumb.ibb.co/dX8zaa/Clipboard_image_2017_03_03_22_47_55.png) (http://ibb.co/dX8zaa)
up loading photos (http://imgbb.com/)
Mounting of thrust halves rings.
Insert the timing system side and flywheel side half-bearings with their
thrust washers into the seats in the upper crankcase
Dimensions:
Main journal diameter on timing system side 40.023 - 43.007 mm (1.5757 - 16932 in)
Flywheel side main bearing seat diameter 47.130 - 47.142 mm (1.8555 - 1.8560 in)
Total thickness for flywheel side main bearings 2.044 - 2.050 mm (0.0805 - 0.0807 in)
Clearance between shaft and flywheel side bearing 0.007 - 0047 mm (0.0003 - 0.0018 in)
Flywheel side main journal diameter 39.995 - 40.011 mm (1.5746 - 1.5752 in)
Thickness of thrust half ring on flywheel side main bearing 2.310 - 2.360 mm (0.0909 - 0.0929 in)
Side thrust clearance of crankshaft in crankcase 0.35 - 0.40 mm (0.0138 - 0.0157 in)
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I seen one at 3K mi so you should know by now. I don't want to mislead anyone, they have used this motor for almost 40yrs, they will sort it. I am not a fan of the smallblock, that's all.
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Well, I am loving the V7 II.
Gearbox is very smooth, clutch is very predictable, and handling is excellent.
781 miles on the clock, in the past 3 weeks.
Only issue is gearbox vent weep. Cleaned it up twice (spray 409, splash a bucket of water)
Going to dealer for service on Tuesday. Maybe it was overfilled. Need to research the valve, for which SIB provided the part number.
Nice ride along Lake Mead, ~ 75F.
(http://thumb.ibb.co/mMgVgF/Gearbox_vent_weep.jpg) (http://ibb.co/mMgVgF)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/nyV1ov/North_Shore_Lake_Mead_5.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nyV1ov)
image hosting (http://imgbb.com/)
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I think you're good doc, as am I, but hey I saw one of these guys on the streets in Philly the other week, standing on a milk crate outside Reading Terminal Market with a bullhorn telling us all how we were sinners... Of course he was less than 10' from a passed out homeless man...hmmmm
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:coffee:
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Only issue is gearbox vent weep. Cleaned it up twice (spray 409, splash a bucket of water)
Going to dealer for service on Tuesday. Maybe it was overfilled.e_Lake_M ead_5.jpg[/img][/url]
image hosting (http://imgbb.com/)
If it's overfilled, it might also have the wrong oil. If your dealer is more into "doing it the way I've always done it" instead of reading the manual, it's possible that he put in 1000 mL of 85W-90 (what the 5-sp gearbox takes) instead of 500 mL of 75W-90. I would suggest draining out whatever is in there now and replacing it with what you know should be in there.
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If it has a litre in there it would be spewing out in torrents! Probably just a tad over full.
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If it's overfilled, it might also have the wrong oil. If your dealer is more into "doing it the way I've always done it" instead of reading the manual, it's possible that he put in 1000 mL of 85W-90 (what the 5-sp gearbox takes) instead of 500 mL of 75W-90. I would suggest draining out whatever is in there now and replacing it with what you know should be in there.
Thanks, Sam, but according to the Dealer installed fluids? thread, the bike is shipped wet from the factory.
If that is not correct, then the overfill theory is likely.
It gets replaced on Tuesday and I won't get a chance to ride it again until then.
I have not found a way to measure, other than by draining.
Do you know anything about the vent function?
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If it has a litre in there it would be spewing out in torrents! Probably just a tad over full.
Seems logical.
Over the decades, I had a couple Hondas with base gasket weep, but it was not enough to bother with disassembly...it was only an appearance issue.
In this case, the quantity is not copious, but would not want it to make its way to the rear tire going into a turn.
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Do you know anything about the vent function?
Both the gearbox and rear bevel drive have vents because their oil, and mainly the air within the boxes, expand when heated and, without a vent, the internal pressure would increase and tend to push the oil out through the seals. The vents provide an escape route for the air and relieve the pressure. The vents are high enough above the oil level, and are possibly also baffled, so oil shouldn't be ejected out of the vents under normal conditions. As far as I know, there are no pressure valves or check valves in the vents; topologically, they are open tubes. I hope that answers your question.
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Both the gearbox and rear bevel drive have vents because their oil, and mainly the air within the boxes, expand when heated and, without a vent, the internal pressure would increase and tend to push the oil out through the seals. The vents provide an escape route for the air and relieve the pressure. The vents are high enough above the oil level, and are possibly also baffled, so oil shouldn't be ejected out of the vents under normal conditions. As far as I know, there are no pressure valves or check valves in the vents; topologically, they are open tubes. I hope that answers your question.
Completely, thank you
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Ok, so this exactly the situation I am in right now. My V7ii Stone had the problem occur at 1024 miles. The dealer first told me that I had misadjusted the clutch cable, of course I had never touched the clutch cable. Then I was told it would take a week to get a tool to measure for a misalignment of the shaft. Then the next day they said the "Motor Guzzi" contact had said the whole engine would need to be replaced. I'm into a week and a half without my bike which is also my daily driver so I'm not thrilled. What really burns me is that the dealer just charged me 440 dollars for my 1k service, and now I will be repeating that about 6 weeks after I get the bike back. What really bothers me is that the service department used the wrong oil during the change compared to what the service manual calls for, and then the service manager doesnt even know the correct name of the brand. And it's 74 degrees out today and I'm staring at my helmet longingly dreaming of riding the twisties. Thanks for listening to my mini-rant.
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What really burns me is that the dealer just charged me 440 dollars for my 1k service, and now I will be repeating that about 6 weeks after I get the bike back.
That's BS, MG should pick up the tab.
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Ok, so this exactly the situation I am in right now. My V7ii Stone had the problem occur at 1024 miles. The dealer first told me that I had misadjusted the clutch cable, of course I had never touched the clutch cable. Then I was told it would take a week to get a tool to measure for a misalignment of the shaft. Then the next day they said the "Motor Guzzi" contact had said the whole engine would need to be replaced. I'm into a week and a half without my bike which is also my daily driver so I'm not thrilled. What really burns me is that the dealer just charged me 440 dollars for my 1k service, and now I will be repeating that about 6 weeks after I get the bike back. What really bothers me is that the service department used the wrong oil during the change compared to what the service manual calls for, and then the service manager doesnt even know the correct name of the brand. And it's 74 degrees out today and I'm staring at my helmet longingly dreaming of riding the twisties. Thanks for listening to my mini-rant.
Ouch. You listed about 5 reasons not to return to that dealer. Perhaps a ride to an alternative is in order?
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=81314.0
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What really bothers me is that the service department used the wrong oil during the change compared to what the service manual calls for, and then the service manager doesnt even know the correct name of the brand.
Wrong grade of oil or different brand?
What was used where?
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Ouch. You listed about 5 reasons not to return to that dealer. Perhaps a ride to an alternative is in order?
Good suggestion, but some of us have few options.
For me, alternatives are Phoenix or Chandler, AZ 300+ miles, Thousand Oaks, 300+ miles.
St. George, Utah is only about 120 miles, but that dealer is not shown on the current map.
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Wrong grade of oil or different brand?
What was used where?
Wrong grade, used 10w-50 in engine oil as opposed for MG recommended 10w/60. I asked about it and the service manager was just condescending. If I felt more confident or could find a good video on checking valve clearence I would just do it myself.
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Good suggestion, but some of us have few options.
For me, alternatives are Phoenix or Chandler, AZ 300+ miles, Thousand Oaks, 300+ miles.
St. George, Utah is only about 120 miles, but that dealer is not shown on the current map.
Ah, we are in the same area. I'm almost to the point where a trip down the 15 to SoCal would be worth it to not have to deal with this service department. I did not know that St. George had a dealer, will file that away in my mental bank. The sad part is that as much as the dealer frustrates me the Guzzi is my pride and joy and I love it dearly.
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Fair enough regarding the distance to an alternative, but I suppose you could make that into a nice day trip or overnight if so inclined. I'm lucky enough to have 2 great dealers within about 65 miles of me, but regardless of proximity, I couldn't return to an incompetent dealer that blamed me for a problem I wasn't responsible for.
The beauty of these bikes is that the maintenance schedule isn't all that demanding. For the first gen single TB V7, it's at 600 and 6200 miles, then every 6200 miles after that if memory serves. Not sure if that has changed for the later generations.
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Fair enough regarding the distance to an alternative, but I suppose you could make that into a nice day trip or overnight if so inclined. I'm lucky enough to have 2 great dealers within about 65 miles of me, but regardless of proximity, I couldn't return to an incompetent dealer that blamed me for a problem I wasn't responsible for.
The beauty of these bikes is that the maintenance schedule isn't all that demanding. For the first gen single TB V7, it's at 600 and 6200 miles, then every 6200 miles after that if memory serves. Not sure if that has changed for the later generations.
I'm tempted, there is a dealer in Malibu that has an Airbnb-type rental as well as half of MG rental while service is being done. Never ridden the canyons before.
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I'm tempted, there is a dealer in Malibu that has an Airbnb-type rental as well as half of MG rental while service is being done. Never ridden the canyons before.
As a long time socal rider I can assure you that you would have loads of fun doing the rental.
I personally prefer Angeles Crest to the Santa Monica Mountains, but Angeles Crest is practically my driveway.
Another option would be Pro Italia in Montrose, CA. They are within a few miles of Angeles Crest Highway. They normally have some used Guzzis, and just might not be opposed to a 3 hour test ride while your repairs are being done. 3 hours gets you up and down the crest in some glorious riding.
And finally, with your living in Las Vegas, I would definitely want that 10-60 weight full synthetic. That a Vegas dealer does not use that oil all the time in any air cooled bike is bothersome to me.
I've taken BMW's on 150 mile test rides. Not sure what Pro Italia's policies are.
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ANY dealer that deviates from the factory recommended service requirements had better have a buttload of evidence supporting their choice... :cool:
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I'm tempted, there is a dealer in Malibu that has an Airbnb-type rental as well as half of MG rental while service is being done. Never ridden the canyons before.
There is a dealer in Thousand Oaks just north of Malibu. I don't think the guy in Malibu is a dealer.
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Wrong grade, used 10w-50 in engine oil as opposed for MG recommended 10w/60. I asked about it and the service manager was just condescending. If I felt more confident or could find a good video on checking valve clearence I would just do it myself.
Service manager = Todd?
How did you discover the grade difference?
Tiffany told me that they "cannot get" AGIP/Eni and use Motoul, but the grade difference is a surprise.
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Ah, we are in the same area. I'm almost to the point where a trip down the 15 to SoCal would be worth it to not have to deal with this service department. I did not know that St. George had a dealer, will file that away in my mental bank. The sad part is that as much as the dealer frustrates me the Guzzi is my pride and joy and I love it dearly.
Not certain about St. George. as it is NOT on the dealer map on this forum.
http://www.powersportstv.com/dealers/4356745664/Guzzi-St.-George/
Will check it out on my next trip to Zion National Park..or just call them.
Mark, when did you buy your V7 II?
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Service manager = Todd?
How did you discover the grade difference?
Tiffany told me that they "cannot get" AGIP/Eni and use Motoul, but the grade difference is a surprise.
AGIP/eni has a US distributor that will be happy to sell it to them, and even sells small quantities to non-dealers. And if your "dealer" can't seem to get it from the distributor (maybe their credit is bad), they can bloody well buy it from AF1 Racing.
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I'm tempted, there is a dealer in Malibu that has an Airbnb-type rental as well as half of MG rental while service is being done. Never ridden the canyons before.
Born in Los Angeles, raised in San Fernando Valley, raised kids in Simi Valley.
I could give you a long list of canyons to ride.
One of the things I miss about SoCal.
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AGIP/eni has a US distributor that will be happy to sell it to them, and even sells small quantities to non-dealers. And if your "dealer" can't seem to get it from the distributor (maybe their credit is bad), they can bloody well buy it from AF1 Racing.
Now I have a dilemma. I can easily do all the first service..although the "service manual" does not list head bolt torque...or I did not find it.
Well, maybe not easily, as the older I get, doing work on the garage floor is it quite as easy as it was when I was 16...54 years ago.
...and putting it on a lift, makes it easy to turn the rear tire to get to TDC to adjust valves.
Part of the list is to check plug gap, which I have already done...but the plugs should come out for TDC, anyway..although seeing the valves closed may suffice.
Main purpose of going to the dealer was to establish a relationship, should there be a warranty issue.
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Service manager = Todd?
How did you discover the grade difference?
Tiffany told me that they "cannot get" AGIP/Eni and use Motoul, but the grade difference is a surprise.
You are correct sir, I only found out about the grade difference because I asked when picking up the bike.
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Mark, when did you buy your V7 II?
Second week of January
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You are correct sir, I only found out about the grade difference because I asked when picking up the bike.
Could you have been told wrong?
Does the invoice itemize?
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Tiffany told me that they "cannot get" AGIP/Eni and use Motoul, but the grade difference is a surprise.
How could a dealer not be "able" to get the OEM recommended fluid, that owners in the US don't seem to have a problem getting?
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Second week of January
Got mine Feb 10.
I emailed the service manager. If I do not get a satisfactory reply, I will do my own service.
Still looking for headbolt torque specs.
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Now I have a dilemma. I can easily do all the first service..although the "service manual" does not list head bolt torque...or I did not find it.
Well, maybe not easily, as the older I get, doing work on the garage floor is it quite as easy as it was when I was 16...54 years ago.
...and putting it on a lift, makes it easy to turn the rear tire to get to TDC to adjust valves.
Part of the list is to check plug gap, which I have already done...but the plugs should come out for TDC, anyway..although seeing the valves closed may suffice.
Main purpose of going to the dealer was to establish a relationship, should there be a warranty issue.
There are threads here (and dealers too) who can talk you through the service if desired.
And I'm not sure a single service would establish any real relationship should warranty work arise.
That said I never actually needed a warranty claim on any of my Guzzis (while they were in warranty) anyway.
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There are threads here (and dealers too) who can talk you through the service if desired.
And I'm not sure a single service would establish any real relationship should warranty work arise.
That said I never actually needed a warranty claim on any of my Guzzis (while they were in warranty) anyway.
Since I am in the process of retiring, I am not entirely on Social Security, so spending $ for the first service is OK with the budget.
However, since I have a tenancy to micromanage, and since doubt has been raised by Mark, the question is will ALL be done 100% correct?
If I do it myself, then I know what has been done.
I have posted on the XLForum about service from Ventura H-D and Simi Valley H-D, some years ago.
I paid Ventura for the first service, circa Dec 2002.
One of the service items is to lube clutch cable.
I was on a ride in Canyon Country (north of Los Angeles), a couple/three weeks later, when clutch pull greatly increased.
I stopped by an off-road M/C place and bought a can of cable lube.
A few minutes later, all was good...except my opinion of the Ventura H-D service department.
In the Spring of 2005, I took my XL1200 Sport to Simi H-D for new tires.
$300 mounted and balanced seemed reasonable.
As I rode away, I heard noise from the front...the axle pinch bolt(s) were very loose.
Made a U turn and "mechanic" snugged them up.
A day or two later, I was on my way to Anaheim on business, when I heard popping noises from the rear hub and the hub was hot...about 70 miles from home.
Apparently, the "mechanic" drove out the rear axle (not enough anti-seize from the factory), but did NOT replace the rear wheel bearings.
The side load on the inner races damaged them. I did not return in the carpool lane at 70 MPH.
Never needed service from Simi Valley Triumph/Yamaha/Suzuki, as I did plug and oil changes (more often than suggested) on the Bonneville.
However, when I had a new tire mounted at a place in Las Vegas (one year and 7,000 miles), just before a ride from Las Vegas to Simi and back, I found out how good a job was done on balancing.
Not that I had any business doing 108, but that was the "I can feel it is not balanced" speed, when the rear started hopping.
On the TW200, I did a couple oil and filter changes, then traded it in after 45 days and 900 miles.
Sixties through eighties, no one else touched any one of the 10 bikes.
Think I am talking myself into doing it my self.
Anyone got torque specs on V7 II head bolts?
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Pete Roper or GuzziSteve are dealers/techs and they can confirm whether or not anything changed, but I'm betting it's the same V7I vs V7II.
If so there's a detailed write up about the first service including head retorque specs and suggestions in a thread I wrote.
I'll search for it.
Edit, this should help:
http://www.wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=60261.0
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Pete Roper or GuzziSteve are dealers/techs and they can confirm whether or not anything changed, but I'm betting it's the same V7I vs V7II.
If so there's a detailed write up about the first service including head retorque specs and suggestions in a thread I wrote.
I'll search for it.
Edit, this should help:
http://www.wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=60261.0
Thanks, Kev, you have been a lot of help
However, the link just took me to log-in and the home page.
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Nuts, works for me weird.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=60261.0
Looks like the same link. Why is it working for me?
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OK I cheated and bumped it.
But maybe this will work too:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=60261.0
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OK I cheated and bumped it.
But maybe this will work too:
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=60261.0
Thanks
Took me right to it.
M8 head botls are 28 Nm = 20.6 ft lbs
M10 are 42 Nm = 30.9 ft lbs
After looking at the vent hose spring clamps, I see why you suggested lifting the tank a few inches.
With plugs out, why not rotate tire to get TDC, rather than remove front engine cover?
Will go back and re-read.
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Mark
I just (~5:30 PM) got a call from Todd, the service manager and I was satisfied with the conversation.
He had not received my last two emails and did not get the two I sent him while we were talking.
His head tech is Mario, who did a shift lever link adjustment before I rode away on Feb 10 and I got a good impression from him.
I will have a discussion with Mario, before signing the authorization on Tuesday.
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Well, ain't this some crap. V7II Stone 1285 miles runs awesome. V7II Special 50 miles but I will keep a close eye on it as the miles pile up.
I LOVE these bikes, sold a CB1100 and a Triumph Scrambler to keep them because those bikes don't stir the soul like the Guzzi.
But I HATE problems, esp. those of this magnitude.
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Wrong grade, used 10w-50 in engine oil as opposed for MG recommended 10w/60. I asked about it and the service manager was just condescending. If I felt more confident or could find a good video on checking valve clearence I would just do it myself.
10w50 is suitable for a v7 engine, thats what i run mine on.. In the cold damp uk using 10w50 seems to dramatically lower the the amount of majo in the oil.
Remember manufacture have to spec and oil that is suitable for use in cold damp countries as well as scorching hot countries.
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Here's where they were all made-
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Europe%202014/IMG_2422.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Europe%202014/IMG_2422.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Europe%202014/IMG_2438.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Europe%202014/IMG_2438.jpg.html)
(http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc462/leafman60/Europe%202014/IMG_2461.jpg) (http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/leafman60/media/Europe%202014/IMG_2461.jpg.html)
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That shifty-looking guy in the first pic is the disgruntled employee who sabotaged the engines by leaving out the crankshaft thrust washers.
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That shifty-looking guy in the first pic is the disgruntled employee who sabotaged the engines by leaving out the crankshaft thrust washers.
Oddly enough, that explanation would give me the most comfort.
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That shifty-looking guy in the first pic is the disgruntled employee who sabotaged the engines by leaving out the crankshaft thrust washers.
Now, you are making me go back to the beginning to find out if the issue is missing or too thin!
Sigh!
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Looks like the eagle-eyed guy in the suit has spotted the shifty guy.
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Looks like the eagle-eyed guy in the suit has spotted the shifty guy.
The guy in the suit is the head of all production for Moto Guzzi.
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He's just asking the other why all those thrust bushings are on the floor.
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He's just asking the other why all those thrust bushings are on the floor.
Phahahahahaha... :grin: :grin: :grin: :laugh: :laugh:
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Don't take the timing cover off. Just rotate the rear wheel with plugs out. Simple.
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Don't take the timing cover off. Just rotate the rear wheel with plugs out. Simple.
I don't know who you're talking to, but if it's Doc he's got a wet alternator so I'm thinking there's no way he was thinking of taking the timing cover off lol.
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SportsterDoc see previous post
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SportsterDoc see previous post
Understood, thank you
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SportsterDoc see previous post
I know but if you read that post it was in response to the link to my break-in service thread where we'd already covered that wasn't an option on a wet alternator bike anyway.
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Anything new regarding missing thrust washers? Are we any closer on isolating this issue via VIN?
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Dealer up here seems to think it only affects V7ii Stones. I haven't yet heard of a Special or Racer having this issue, but please correct me if I am wrong. Does it make sense that the Stones are the first off the assembly line?? Could that be why?
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Dealer up here seems to think it only affects V7ii Stones. I haven't yet heard of a Special or Racer having this issue, but please correct me if I am wrong. Does it make sense that the Stones are the first off the assembly line?? Could that be why?
I wish he is right. For me it doesn't make sense. Aren't engines assembled independently of the type?
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I wish he is right. For me it doesn't make sense. Aren't engines assembled independently of the type?
AFAIK, the engines are assembled independently, HOWEVER, they run the bikes down the assembly line in batches.
SO if there was a bad batch of motors waiting to be installed there's a decent chance they'd all get installed in the same model as that was what they were building that week/month.
I believe that's why the models typically arrived in batches too - i.e. the Stones (at least in 2013) all arrived in the US in December/Jan, while the Racers and Specials each arrived separately months later.
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Took a shorter ride today (~140 miles).
Almost 2700 miles on the clock
A bit chilly (46 F) at 8,437 feet elevation at 11 AM, but pleasant walking around the Desert Wildlife Center at Corn Creek, earlier.
Photo is from 3 1/2 weeks ago (no camera today)
Although I am told it does not affect performance or life, I would prefer to have a quieter throughout bearing assembly.
Any ideas?
(http://thumb.ibb.co/gBCNi5/4_Deer_Creek_Road_from_Lee_Cyn_to_Kyle_Cyn.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gBCNi5)
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Is it the throw out bearing that makes noise on the smallblocks? ? ?
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If VIN has anything to do with it, my the last 3 digits of my Stones were 208 and 280, the last three of my Special is 181
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Is it the throw out bearing that makes noise on the smallblocks? ? ?
I must confess that I don't know that Kev, the fact that it goes quiet when I pull the clutch in would tend to suggest that.
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Won't be the bearing, even if they fail they fail silently, it's not like a car clutch thrust bearing. Most likely reason for noise will be the rather ragged tickover of the MUIG3 equipped bikes in stock trim with the lambda on. The fuel is trimmed very lean and the stepper doesn't cope well, especially when cold. Add in the 270-450 firing patern and you'll get a fair bit of backlash between the primaries when in neutral with the clutch released. As soon as you engage the clutch the input shaft isn't being driven so no rapid speed changes to the shaft and no noise from backlash.
Pete
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So the "rattle" for want of a better word is coming from the gearbox? I suppose the bell housing is acting as a sounding board.
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Dunno about the bell housing acting as a sounding board but the 'Cement mixer full of bricks' noise is the shafts and pinions lashing about.
Pete
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There's a lot of you banging on about "the problem", but only a couple who've experienced it. Could it be a myth that's been built up because of the noise being made by those who've simply heard about it?
Perhaps someone more computer literate than I could set up a poll for V7ll owners so we can get an idea if the number of bikes and the number who've suffered this problem.
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There's a lot of you banging on about "the problem", but only a couple who've experienced it. Could it be a myth that's been built up because of the noise being made by those who've simply heard about it?
I think the thread title IS the basic problem.
The thread title SUGGESTS there's an inherent problem with all V7 II's.
The reality is that the crankshaft for a FEW V7 II's (possibly only some Stones) was installed missing a thrust washer and will fail, and the failure manifests itself first with a clutch that won't stay in adjustment because the crankshaft is eating the block and walking backwards.
It's not a design defect, and I don't think it can be CAUSED clutch adjustment unless a severe preload setting on the lower clutch throwout arm can push the crankshaft forward into the block that direction, but even if that's true the simple answer would be to leave that alone since it rarely would NEED adjustment unless something else was wrong anyway.
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Let's face it, the sky IS falling. The end is near. Repent and give up your worldly goods, especially your V7II's.
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My local dealer who has done a few of these motor replacements says the motors that have the problem are very obvious, and it happens VERY early in life.
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Dunno about the bell housing acting as a sounding board but the 'Cement mixer full of bricks' noise is the shafts and pinions lashing about.
Pete
I typically equate such noises with wear issues. Is that unfounded in this case?
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I typically equate such noises with wear issues. Is that unfounded in this case?
Yes, the Guzzi smallblocks (and big blocks) both make noises from new.
The big blocks with the clutch pulled in, the smallblocks I think with the clutch released but shifter in neutral.
Neither are anything to worry about any more than the rattle of a Ducati dry clutch.
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Yes, the Guzzi smallblocks (and big blocks) both make noises from new.
The big blocks with the clutch pulled in, the smallblocks I think with the clutch released but shifter in neutral.
Neither are anything to worry about any more than the rattle of a Ducati dry clutch.
Yes, clutch released, gearbox in neutral. Signals in Las Vegas are L O N G.
As soon as I pull in the clutch, it sounds healthy.
When I pull into my driveway, moderately steep, I go into the garage from the side door and open the motorized roll up door from inside, then ride the bike to its parking space. When I am in the garage, I can hear the rattle through the insulated roll-up door.
No know way to (reasonably) make it quieter?
Be interesting to see an internal video of what is shaking.
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Adjusting your gear train backlash will make that transmission seem a little quieter. :boozing:
(http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag77/Penderic/Penderic006/gear%20train1_zpsw0k1xxkd.jpg)
:laugh:
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Yes, the Guzzi smallblocks (and big blocks) both make noises from new.
The big blocks with the clutch pulled in, the smallblocks I think with the clutch released but shifter in neutral.
Neither are anything to worry about any more than the rattle of a Ducati dry clutch.
My 2003 2TB Breva has done it from new., not loud but ti is there. Clutch adjustment hardly varies.
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Yes, clutch released, gearbox in neutral. Signals in Las Vegas are L O N G.
As soon as I pull in the clutch, it sounds healthy.
When I pull into my driveway, moderately steep, I go into the garage from the side door and open the motorized roll up door from inside, then ride the bike to its parking space. When I am in the garage, I can hear the rattle through the insulated roll-up door.
No know way to (reasonably) make it quieter?
Be interesting to see an internal video of what is shaking.
The twin plate clutch big blocks make a noise when the clutch is pulled in, the single plater's don't, either on the big or smallblocks.
As for understanding what is *shaking* it's really quite easy to visualise.
The engine is a 90 degree V twin with a shared crankpin. This means both connecting rods are on the one pin so the two pistons reach top dead centre 90 degrees apart. Being a four stroke engine the cycle of each cylinder occurs over a period of 720 degrees or two full revolutions of the crank and seeing as the cylinders are 90 degrees apart it means that the firing intervals can never be evenly spaced.
What happens at idle is the left cylinder fires accelerating the crank but as it rotates it then has to compress the charge for the right hand cylinder so it slows down again. After 270 degrees of crank rotation, (360 degrees minus ninety degrees.) the right cylinder fires once more accelerating the crank but it has further to turn and uses more energy before having to compress the next charge for the left hand cylinder. In fact it has to turn 450 degrees, (360 plus ninety degrees.) before the left hand cylinder fires again.
It is this uneven firing sequence that gives this motor design the lilting cadence we find so enjoyable but it does have a downside in the fact that not only does the crank, and anything connected to it, accelerate and decelerate constantly but it does it unevenly.
Now the symptoms can be masked by using a heavier flywheel. A flywheel is basically nothing more than a 'Battery' for kinetic energy. The greater it's mass the less effect the power surges will have on its speed. This though does have its downside too as more mass means it takes more energy to accelerate and it also takes longer for it to dump energy. This is why one of the 'Hot ticket' tuning mods on older Guzzis was/is to fit a lighter flywheel. It doesn't make any more power but it absorbs less and spins up and down quicker speeding up gear changes, (And boy do the old five speeds need all the help they can get there! :grin:).
Getting back to the subject in hand though with the smallblocks the clutch and flywheel assembly is comparatively light and at idle it will accelerate and decelerate appreciably over the engines firing sequence. When the clutch is not pulled in the input shaft will likewise be speeding up and slowing down along with the crank/clutch/flywheel and on the input shaft there is the input primary gear. It though engages with the intermediate shaft primary gear which also has mass and therefore inertia but it has absolutely no desire to accelerate and decelerate! All it really wants to do is sit still but if it's going to spin it will prefer to spin at a constant speed!
There has to be a bit of clearance between the teeth of the two gears so you have one that is wanting to speed up and slow down and one that wants to turn at a constant speed! Every time the input primary speeds up and slows down the teeth knock backward and forward and then there is the cascading effect of the shaft, other gears and dog clutches on the intermediate and output shafts that will all rattle and knock about in sympathy! No wonder the poxy thing makes a racket! :evil: Of course when you pull the clutch in it separates the crank and flywheel from the input shaft so the acceleration and deceleration of the gears stops and the whole thing goes quiet. See? Simple innit!
On many other engines the firing intervals are much more evenly spaced so the changes in crank speed are much less pronounced. An inline four for instance has one firing pulse every 180 degrees of crank rotation. An inline six one every sixty degrees. Therefore crank speed remains almost constant.
Pete
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Thanks, Pete.
Really well done.
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Thank you for the reply, Pete.
So it is the hammering of the gears at low RPM, when the input shaft is connected via the clutch, rather than that the throwout bearing.
It does go away (or I cannot hear it) at about 2,000 RPM and up.
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So the only REAL problem with the 6-speed V7's is that I don't have one. :boozing:
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Thank you for the reply, Pete.
So it is the hammering of the gears at low RPM, when the input shaft is connected via the clutch, rather than that the throwout bearing.
It does go away (or I cannot hear it) at about 2,000 RPM and up.
'Hammering' is a poor choice of wording as it implies that it might be causing damage, it won't, it's just a host of components rattling around. This isn't helped by the fact that you're running a single TB and the lambda is trimming the fuel to a critically lean level so there is a tendency for the engine to periodically eight and twelve stroke, it's one of the reasons for the higher target idle than the earlier machines.
The MUIG3 is a fairly horrid and crude device. As a controller it quite simply doesn't control very well! :laugh:
Pete
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If VIN has anything to do with it, my the last 3 digits of my Stones were 208 and 280, the last three of my Special is 181
Swami....
How is your Special doing? Any updates.... how many miles do you have on it now?
Thanks,
Rick
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Swami....
How is your Special doing? Any updates.... how many miles do you have on it now?
Thanks,
Rick
So far so good! 535 miles about ready for it's first service. When I hold the clutch in no change in idle, I've been watching that like a hawk. Runs strong, idles in neutral fine, 170 miles on a tank and no low fuel light yet :boozing:...and I'm a load
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So far so good! 535 miles about ready for it's first service. When I hold the clutch in no change in idle, I've been watching that like a hawk. Runs strong, idles in neutral fine, 170 miles on a tank and no low fuel light yet :boozing:...and I'm a load
Thanks for the update. Yesterday my daughter bought a 2016 V7 Special. I rode it 125 miles home from the dealer. She had a deposit for a Stone but when we got to the dealer the blue Special was marked down $400 from 3 weeks ago. That was close enough to the Stone price that she switched. She said she had preferred the Special but it was initially $800 more than the Stone. Her vin ends in 184 so it may be the same batch build as yours.
I mentioned the engine shim problem to the dealer and he said their dealership has had no V7 engine defects.
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After running an errand to the southern part of Las Vegas Valley, I went north to Indian Springs, then Cold Creek, Sawmill picnic area on Lee Canyon, Deer Creek Road, Kyle Canyon to the summit (55F), then home, after a refueling stop.
Took the camera, hoping to see some wild horses...and I did!
Used 1/2 tank of fuel: 170 miles on the trip odometer
3.4 gallons = 50 MPG (typical for climbing grades, esp. going to 8,500 feet)
Over 3,000 miles on the clock in 3 months
(http://thumb.ibb.co/cdsiCa/Sawmill_Picnic_area.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cdsiCa)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/bEwX5v/Spring_Mountians_from_Cold_Creek_Road.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bEwX5v)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/j71odF/Wild_horses_east_of_Cold_Creek.jpg) (http://ibb.co/j71odF)
(http://thumb.ibb.co/i63OCa/Wild_horses_in_community_of_Cold_Creek.jpg) (http://ibb.co/i63OCa)
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Just a two-month bump. Nearly 900 miles now with no issues on my V7II special (other than those caused by the dealer). Easily my favorite bike out of my growing fleet. Looking to buy another one before they are gone forever. Any other possibly new insights as to which VINs or models are affected? Things have been thankfully quiet on this front!
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Just a two-month bump. Nearly 900 miles now with no issues on my V7II special (other than those caused by the dealer)...
4300+ miles since Feb and no issues...other than side stand is starting to need lubrication.
Last trip to Red Rock Canyon, then Lovell Canyon was 54 MPG.
Rear tire is about 1/2 worn.
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4300+ miles since Feb and no issues...other than side stand is starting to need lubrication.
Last trip to Red Rock Canyon, then Lovell Canyon was 54 MPG.
Rear tire is about 1/2 worn.
So I take it you're still digging it right?
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Dunno about the bell housing acting as a sounding board but the 'Cement mixer full of bricks' noise is the shafts and pinions lashing about.
Pete
You folks are looking at this all wrong. Like the dry clutches on Ducatii, this noise should be considered a feature to be enhanced and made as loud as possible. :grin:
So, is there anything we can open up and get a louder clatter?
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So I take it you're still digging it right?
Yes, very pleased with the choice in many respects:
controls ergonomics
seat height
ground clearance
shaft drive
fuel capacity
weight
It does not have the upper RPM HP of my 865 cc Bonneville, which performed in between my 2003 XLH883 Sportster and my 2002 1200 Sport Sportster...so I need to plan ahead a bit more when passing up a greater than 6% grade at ~8,000 feet elevation, but the cruising range is phenomenal.
On the flat, at 2,000 to 3,000 feet elevation or so, I rarely drop it lower than 5th for passing on a 55 MPH or 65 MPH two lane.
Planning to change all fluids ( I know that the gearbox can go much longer) at the end of Summer. Should have ~6,000 miles by the end of September.
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Yes, very pleased with the choice in many respects:
controls ergonomics
seat height
ground clearance
shaft drive
fuel capacity
weight
It does not have the upper RPM HP of my 865 cc Bonneville, which performed in between my 2003 XLH883 Sportster and my 2002 1200 Sport Sportster...so I need to plan ahead a bit more when passing up a greater than 6% grade at ~8,000 feet elevation, but the cruising range is phenomenal.
On the flat, at 2,000 to 3,000 feet elevation or so, I rarely drop it lower than 5th for passing on a 55 MPH or 65 MPH two lane.
Planning to change all fluids ( I know that the gearbox can go much longer) at the end of Summer. Should have ~6,000 miles by the end of September.
Glad to hear. [emoji106]
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I test rode a V7III Stone today. The gearbox was nice but that was the only thing that I would consider an improvement over my 2013 Racer. Since I put a fair amount of work into my Racer's suspension, I recognized the stock configuration suspension shortcomings immediately. I also like the ergos of the Racer better, the Stone's upright position doesn't suit me. Glad I tried a new ride, love my old girl even more.
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Hi all, My v7 ii has just had a new engine from piaggio fitted. Mine seized solid, there is an apparent known problem where a crankshaft thrust washer is incorrectly machined, drops down and seizes the engine. I guess it may not do in all circumstances, who knows.
I had mine done at in-Moto in London, they mentioned that they had done one previously and one booked in.
I can guess why it isn't a recall but to me the issue could be personally catastrophic at high speed. Mine happened on a mid to low speed roundabout, just stopped dead. Went into neutral okay etc but the engine was seized solid.
If I had one I'd be on to my dealer. Mine had about 2k miles on it.
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Here's an additional thread on the thrust washer problem.
http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=88760.0
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Thread title is confusing . Going to merge this with the other thread , and yes , it has happened before .
Dusty
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Yep, the bad ones ain't all sold yet. Shop I worked at has 5 sitting around, Guzzi's in no hurry to come collect them.
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Are they all Stone models or is this happening to other versions as well? Last I heard it was only Stones.
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Piaggio stuff is all batch manufactured, the major mechanical components are AFAIK assembled at Noale. If there was a batch of motors built without thrust faces installed or installed incorrectly they would almost certainly of been shipped as a back-load to Mandello and then used in a particular production run.
If that batch was used in Stones then it's possible that the problem only affects Stones. If there was a product swap on the Mandello assembly line during the use of that engine build set, say from Stones to Racers then the problem would cross pollinate to Racers.
We've seen issues like this before. An obvious example being the Norge 2V oil pump problem. Lots of 2V CARC bikes used that pump but the 'Crash and Burn' pumps all seem to have found their way into a short run of red Norges.
Pete
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Thanks for the info. Fingers crossed it doesn't show up on the specials. Mine has around 4400k's on it so not out of the woods just yet.
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Piaggio stuff is all batch manufactured, the major mechanical components are AFAIK assembled at Noale. If there was a batch of motors built without thrust faces installed or installed incorrectly they would almost certainly of been shipped as a back-load to Mandello and then used in a particular production run.
If that batch was used in Stones then it's possible that the problem only affects Stones. If there was a product swap on the Mandello assembly line during the use of that engine build set, say from Stones to Racers then the problem would cross pollinate to Racers.
We've seen issues like this before. An obvious example being the Norge 2V oil pump problem. Lots of 2V CARC bikes used that pump but the 'Crash and Burn' pumps all seem to have found their way into a short run of red Norges.
Pete
I'm glad this thread has resurfaced at this time, because I'm very interested right now in a few 2016 V7 ll Stornellos that have popped up for sale 200-400 miles away in different dealerships in Quebec, with aggressive end of the year pricing under $10K Canadian.
I'm not really interested in a small block,,, frankly,none of the current MG offerings really move me,,,except for the Stornello,,, it causes a visceral reaction in my gut,,, I think that it's a gorgeous looking motorcycle,,, I'm sure I would find it wanting for more power and it might not be as fun a hooligan bike to rip around town on, as my DR650,,, but it should be a great bike for runs into the city,,,the lower seat height would sure be easier to mount and dismount,,, I think it should be much nicer on twisty back roads,,, and it could handle the odd passenger, much better.
I've had a tough time selling my DL1000,,, but if they would take it in a trade in,,, the Stornello should be a worthy replacement for what I use my DR650 for,,, if I decided to sell it, I'd have no problem selling my DR.
Buying a new bike from a dealer so far away, would make any work, warranty or otherwise a major pita,,, I'm reasonably confident that I could do any service work required.
I know dealer set up on these modern bikes is crucial, I have no knowledge of any of these dealerships,,, but I have researched it a bit,,, and even if the mapping was totally screwed up,,, Beetle apparently has a map for the Stornello,,, so I could handle that aspect if it was an issue.
But if I happened to get a v7ll with one of these bad crankshaft assemblies, I would be f@cked.
My questions for Pete or any other dealer, or person in the know with the latest and best information on this issue,,,
Were these bad crankshaft assemblies confined to a set date of manufacture or VIN # range?
I know that one of the Stornellos for sale is marked # 348 of 1000 made,,, were the Stornellos made after the crankshaft assembly issue was corrected or is there a real danger of "cross pollination" as Pete describes of bad engines in different model runs?
Tia take care
Kelly
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Firstly, I'm no longer an *Official* service agent so I have no access to the pitiful drip-feed of non-information on the Piaggio service portal so I can't offer any real information on the issue at all.
All we know is that there have been problems with some V7-II's. I can't remember anyone posting engine numbers so there are no indicators as to which batch/es might be problematic.
So far, as far as I can make make out, using my perusal of somewhat useful sources on the web, the issue affects Stones and Classics, not sure about 'Racers' and from what is posted by members here and on the Ghetto who have Stornellos the shit hasn't hit the fan with them.
Having said that neither I, or Uncle Tom Cobbley or anyone else can give any guarantees. I'd also add that it would appear thT the current V7 series seem to attract people who, to use someone else's words, would have difficulty using a can opener!
If you are thinking of purchasing a V7, or indeed any Moto Guzzi, or even something more complicated than a toilet brush, please do your due diligence first. If you are worried about basic servicing? Don't feel confident you can do it yourself? Look elsewhere. If you fear that it is going to be riven with complicated issues beyond your ken? Look elsewhere. If you think you Re getting a 'Good Deal' because the dealer selling the bike can undercut everyone else? Ask why? And then walk away.
And finally, if you play about with stuff you don't understand or, if you haven't given any thought to the above mentioned issues? Please don't whine and sook about how hard done by you are!
I'm so, so glad I no longer have to deal with this idiocy!
Pete
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Were these bad crankshaft assemblies confined to a set date of manufacture or VIN # range?
You can have a look here: http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-ii-owners-clutch-advisory-bearing-omission.16098/ (http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-ii-owners-clutch-advisory-bearing-omission.16098/)
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You can have a look here: http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-ii-owners-clutch-advisory-bearing-omission.16098/ (http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-ii-owners-clutch-advisory-bearing-omission.16098/)
I was going to say that Todd was trying to build a VIN list.
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Good to know he's useful for something.
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I'm just thankfull that my 2015 V7 with 2500km doesn't have this problems. Yet. No clutch adjustment from kilometer zero. :bow:
I believe this is recommended practice for all clutches in all vehicles (but I'm sure driving school is not telling this to new candidates).
Pete has been saying this for years.
Dean
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You can have a look here: http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-ii-owners-clutch-advisory-bearing-omission.16098/ (http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/v7-ii-owners-clutch-advisory-bearing-omission.16098/)
Tks very much for that link,,, their site is down right now, but I will definitely read through it later, and any other information available on this issue before taking a run at these Stornellos.
Pete, I'm thinking by your over the top, crusty bombastic response, a 'Roo must have shite in your cornflakes this morning,,,lol,,, you are extremely insightful though,,, toilet brushes are one of my greatest challenges in life, actually anything, along the lines of house cleaning causes me fits,lol.
tks
Kelly
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Tks very much for that link,,, their site is down right now, but I will definitely read through it later
<* kev scratches his head *>
Not down for me/not now?
Thread started by our friend Steve below... if you're having issues with your V7 II regarding your clutch working correctly, which (can lead/) led to your motor being replaced due to missing crank thrust bearings from the factory.
PDFs info attached.
Please post yours by replying to this thread if you have had this issue. Those affected listed below:
ZGULWUB05GM200257 - @emab
ZGULWUB07GM200258 - @RedHawk47 - Dan
ZGULWUB01GM200353 - @Moto_Max
ZGULWUB09GM200357 - @MarkAWallace
ZGULWUB07GM200499 - @frnco
ZGULWUB05GM200548 - Shannon M
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<* kev scratches his head *>
Not down for me/not now?
Hey Kev, The site is working for me now, I'll read through the info later. I'm on a poor satellite connection, certain times through the day, I can have problems loading sites,,, the issue was probably at my end,,, not with the site,fwiw.
tks
Kelly
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Hey Kev, The site is working for me now, I'll read through the info later. I'm on a poor satellite connection, certain times through the day, I can have problems loading sites,,, the issue was probably at my end,,, not with the site,fwiw.
tks
Kelly
That's what I was guessing. Which is why I posted the most important part (the members who have reported their effected VINs so far).
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If you think you Re getting a 'Good Deal' because the dealer selling the bike can undercut everyone else? Ask why? And then walk away.
Pete
I thank you for the timely reminder of sage advice.
Imho only,,, we aren't blessed in this part of the world, with knowledgeable, forthcoming, MG dealers. This isn't the first time I've been wary of deals on MGs, from far away, with dealers of unknown motives & scruples.
There was a beautiful new demo, 2013 Griso with a Mistral pipe that was a major bargain, for sale a days drive away from me,,, I felt some what secure in regards to the roller issue because it was being sold as a 2013.
Thanks to what I'd read here, I insisted that the dealer pull a valve cover off and email me pics BEFORE I closed the deal,,, it was very obviously a flat tappet 4 valve head,,, the sweet bargain and deal,,, wasn't what it appeared to be.
I escaped a bullet on that "deal" and I'll try my best not take one, in regards to these Stornellos.
Thank you for taking the time to reply
Kelly