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General Category => Bike Builds, Rebuilds And Restorations Only => Topic started by: Pescatore on August 14, 2019, 03:21:17 AM

Title: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on August 14, 2019, 03:21:17 AM
I am restoring this bike to as authentic and presentable as practically possible.

(https://i.ibb.co/q9vN7gV/20190316-145303-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/q9vN7gV)

I did some basic stuff this past winter (oil changes, brake pads, tires, battery...).  I drove it for about 100 miles and then the gears broke.
There were also idling problems, getting stuck at 4000rpm.  Pulling the choke slightly reduced it to 2000rpm (later about leaky carb floats).
I also see the Motoplat ignition modules are unplugged and there are some ugly looking ignition coils under the tank that I want to understand better.

After moping for a week I decided to take it apart to have the gear box serviced.  I took lots of pictures, hoping to remember how to put it
back together.  I thought I would share some and maybe they will help someone someday.

This post gave me the guts to take on the work: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=58695.0
Other similar info on Greg Bender's site gave me great examples.
Thank you!

I started with the intention of just crabbing the frame enough to get at the box and not disconnect too much.  I used a bike jack under the engine,
which makes the bike rock between the wheels.   Then, I tied straps from the back of the bike to the garage ceiling.  This makes the front wheel
rock down, so I don't need to removed it like I saw done elsewhere (thisoldtractor web site).

(https://i.ibb.co/sCdgbr5/rocker.gif) (https://ibb.co/sCdgbr5)


The disassembly sequence below is how I went about it and there are probably more clever ways of doing it.  Sometimes I did things that could have been done later with easier access, but sometimes at the end of the day, I was looking for things to accomplish.
If I were to do it over, I might simplify it.  However, I don't want to deviate to avoid confusing future readers.
Let's roll...

Disconnect the fuel hoses at the tank and remove the tank.
Disconnect the breather hoses from the heads.  I had to replace them, one was cracked.
Remove the mufflers and rear pegs
Disconnect the negative terminal of the battery (much simpler than positive) and tape it up
Remove the starter motor (couple hex bolts and two wires)
Disconnect the rear brake rod from the pedal  (arrow below).
Remove the rear brake caliper (2 hex bolts again) and hang it to the bike frame.  I put a few wooden shims between the pads before sliding it off the rotor.

Loosen the 3 frame bolts below the battery tray, but don't remove them yet.

(https://i.ibb.co/LRqnWZZ/Inkedbolts2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LRqnWZZ)


At the front of the frame remove the bottom bolt and loosen the top bolt.  Do the left side as well and remove the crash bar (it has two more bolts below the tank).

(https://i.ibb.co/GH5d9Lz/framebolts.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GH5d9Lz)


Unscrew the air box bracket, between the cylinders.  I didn't notice this at first and the bracket bent a little.

(https://i.ibb.co/bdhCnvz/Inked-airbox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bdhCnvz)


Remove the cap nuts at the swing arm, 30mm.

(https://i.ibb.co/xgcq8Vy/locknut.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xgcq8Vy)


Measure how much the swing pin sticks out, both sides.  Then turn it to see how tight it is.  Mine was about 6.8mm on both sides and it turned almost half a turn before it bottomed out.

(https://i.ibb.co/mR0yrwn/P1040258.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mR0yrwn)


Loosen the clutch cable clamp and pull out the whole cable.  You can do this later too.  I later realized that this is not as built, so I will be looking for a new clutch cable, besides, the jacket is in bad shape.

(https://i.ibb.co/0rmChwN/Inkedclutch.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0rmChwN)

upload pic (https://imgbb.com/)


Unscrew the gas intake fitting and slider cap on the carburetor and gently set it aside.  On the left carb, the gas fitting can be disconnected only after the carb is out.

(https://i.ibb.co/XsMy2DS/Inkedcarb1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XsMy2DS)


Remove the carburetors.  You can choose not to remove the carbs, but mine were filthy from years of leaded gas.  Loosen the clamps and wiggle them out from the back first.
Careful not to flip the carburetors, the bowl is likely full of gas.

(https://i.ibb.co/41DfKTL/00256-1-1.gif) (https://ibb.co/41DfKTL)


Disconnect the choke cable.  Set the carb aside for later.

(https://i.ibb.co/HYG4TXb/choke.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HYG4TXb)


At this point you are almost ready to lift the top frame.  Make sure the frame is supported well.  I ended up tying the front and rear with straps for more stability and to spread the weight on the ceiling.

(https://i.ibb.co/KKXpkHw/P1040263.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KKXpkHw)


Disconnect the rear shocks and swing them up, out of the way.  Notice the spacer behind the shocker mounting hole.  There is no spacer on the right shock.

(https://i.ibb.co/DwgwyTz/shocks.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DwgwyTz)


Remove the three frame bolts below the battery tray.   The lower bolts that tie the frame bars at the front shpuld already be out.
You are ready to lift.

(https://i.ibb.co/njFYNK2/00257-1-1.gif) (https://ibb.co/njFYNK2)


To be continued soon.


Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on August 14, 2019, 09:16:52 PM
I need to make a correction.  I did not remove the bottom bolt frame in the front, but the top one (brown arrow).
Here is the top frame fully... crabbed.

(https://i.ibb.co/FwJvT1L/crabbed.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FwJvT1L)
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on August 14, 2019, 11:48:59 PM
The next step is to remove the rear tire and the swing arm.
I did that in reverse and regretted it.  The tire being still attached to the final drive and swing arm makes it really cumbersome to disassemble further.
So, at this point remove the rear tire and support the final drive.  Don't let it drop when the tire is removed.

Next, remove the final drive from the swing arm by undoing the four cap nuts.

(https://i.ibb.co/gtCtv56/drive2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gtCtv56)


Then, remove the pin bolts and pull off the swing arm.  Keep track of the spacer washer on the left [EDIT: right] side of the swing arm.  It goes between the swing bearing and the swing arm.

(https://i.ibb.co/z6PZhgz/swingarm.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z6PZhgz)


Now that the rear of the engine is accessible, disconnect the clutch cable, I already had.
Don't lose the spring that goes in the hole at the bottom of the clutch arm.
Don't forget to take out the nuts for the frame bolts. 

(https://i.ibb.co/wsNvTgJ/neutral.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wsNvTgJ)


Remove the cotter pin that holds the shift pedal and disconnect the shift rod.

(https://i.ibb.co/dLk56qG/shift.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dLk56qG)


Remove the long frame bolt at the front and the lower frame bolt (circled).  I said to remove the circled one before... I lied, but it's fine either way.

(https://i.ibb.co/yf6n5MB/bolts2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yf6n5MB)


I ended up loosening the exhaust pipes.  The short pipe that connects the two long pipes in the middle seemed to be in the way of removing the gear box.  It might not be necessary.
Now the bottom frame will swing down.

(https://i.ibb.co/x33MhbZ/framedown.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x33MhbZ)


Disconnect the neutral switch cable and the gear box breather hose.

(https://i.ibb.co/GCSm2Wh/breather2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GCSm2Wh)


Undo the 6 hex bolts that hold the gear box to the engine.
Unplug the thin black hose from the bottom of the air box and the thick one from the valve breather box behind the steering column.

(https://i.ibb.co/xh7tDSy/boxnuts.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xh7tDSy)


Before removing all the bolts, support the gear box with a wood block and pull it off the engine.

(https://i.ibb.co/7Cnzw5J/gearbox.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7Cnzw5J)


And there it is.  Time to clean it up a bit.

(https://i.ibb.co/w6tH2Nj/P1040296.jpg) (https://ibb.co/w6tH2Nj)

Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on August 15, 2019, 11:57:36 PM
I cleaned the gear box and removed the breather nipple, which was clogged.
At this point I decided that opening the gear box is beyond my skills.  Besides, I don't have the tools to unlock the bolt for the clutch housing.
Another tool is also needed to open the gear box.  I have plenty left to do anyway.

Here is the inside of the drive shaft, in the order they came out.

(https://i.ibb.co/G75rs1D/P1040297.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G75rs1D)


I removed the drive shaft boot to clean everything.

(https://i.ibb.co/kGm2pzF/ring.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kGm2pzF)


I took everything to AJ Cycle in Gill, MA.  They opened it up a few days ago and told me the spring had snapped (61238200).
Waiting for Harper to send new spring and gaskets.  It should be all fixed in a week or so.

I went back in my garage, looking at the mess I made.  Will I be able to put everything back together?  I have hours of video, but it's all a blur.
Staring at it some more, I notice there is grime everywhere.  Maybe I should take out the engine to clean it, it's just a couple more bolts.
And what's this spark plug wire all about?  Where is the connector?  Why are the ignition coils hanging on tie wraps?  :undecided:

(https://i.ibb.co/qgr7Mw3/20190815-230824.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qgr7Mw3)


I know the carburetors have a problem.  Let's open them up.
Here is one, all cleaned up with all new o-rings, fuel screen and float needle.

(https://i.ibb.co/7bNmLPK/carb2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7bNmLPK)


It's not easy to see in the picture, but these floats have gas in them.  Maybe that's what causes the acceleration.
I ordered new floats and for the same part number they sent me 6.5grams floats.  I have all stock jets (38/60/105/268, 3rd tack), so I also wanted to keep the same weight of 9.5grams.
After searching online I discovered there is a substitute part AP8106782.  According to Rick at MG Cycle, the weight had been
switching over the years.  It seems Guzzi is back to 9.5grams with this Aprilia part number.

The choke jet above has no o-ring yet.  It took some patience to put a new one on because it was really snug.  It feels like I have the wrong o-ring,
but the original was also snug.

Next task will be to take down the bottom frame rails and drag the engine out.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on August 18, 2019, 06:25:48 PM
Waiting for the gear box to be repaired, I contemplate the difference between crabbing the frame and just carting away the top.  Being this my first experience,
I didn’t want to disconnect too much for the fear of not knowing how to rebuild it.  It does take less space in my 1car garage (filled with crap), not having to set
aside the top frame.  It certainly would be nice to clean the grime on the engine, now that it’s almost out.  Dare I think to repaint it?

(https://i.ibb.co/rMSFBqs/20190712-172407.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rMSFBqs)

free photo uploading (https://imgbb.com/)


Well, I removed the bottom frame bolts in the front and the bottom frame rails come off, along with kick stands.  I take out the exhaust pipes, I disconnected the
ignition coils, spark plug wires, oil sump hose, tach cable, oil pressure wire and I rolled away the engine from under the frame.  This is a rite of passage for me.

(https://i.ibb.co/XVmrPGY/20190712-193110.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XVmrPGY)


Lots of grime, corroded fins and the paint is flaking off.  If I wash it, the paint will look even worse.  If I go the paint stripper route, I’ll never ride this summer.

I noticed one exhaust hole has a ton of carbon build up (the side with the broken coil wire) and the other doesn’t.  This bike was built to run on leaded gas. 
I think I first need to check the plugs/timing/carbs before I clean that out.
Also, I need to research the Motoplat ignition that is disconnected.  The connector housing for the coils has a burn mark.  Looks like it overheated.  I read
something in Guzziology about bad ignitions.  This is sounding like a good winter project.
I think once I put the gear box back on, a light was will do for this time.  If I need to open the cylinder, I will think about repainting then.

Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on August 20, 2019, 11:25:17 PM
The exhaust pipes are covered in rust and there was a hole that spit out soot all over the frame.  I welded the hole shut and that will do
it for now. 

(https://i.ibb.co/ZG3kX6K/hole.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZG3kX6K)

I applied a rust removed gel to the pipes.  It took some rust off, but they still look bad.  I have read about blasting them and painting
them, but I don't think the usual black will look good on this bike.

(https://i.ibb.co/5xWnk3X/20190820-223002-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5xWnk3X)


The pipes don’t fit snug with the silencers.  My other bike has a compression mesh gasket here, but the parts list (and other Guzzi models) don’t
show anything like that.  I see there is something inside the silencer.  If I don't make this snug, the exhaust will keep corroding the pipe outer wall.
Has anyone had this problem?  I’ll check with other bike shops.

(https://i.ibb.co/KLpH1r9/20190821-001553-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KLpH1r9)


The clutch handle was patched together with rivets.  I got a new clutch body from Stein-Dinse and just used the handle.  I need to cut off
the grips to replace the whole clutch body... a good winter project, and I need to find new ones before I slice these off.
Unfortunately, the clutch cable is not original and the cable head doesn’t fit in the lever. In fact, the old handle has been sliced to make the
cable fit.  I cannot find a replacement cable.  For now, I will try grinding down the head of the cable.

(https://i.ibb.co/94MMSKg/20190820-222241-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/94MMSKg)

Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on September 10, 2019, 06:55:43 AM
First.. I've never seen this model.  :thumb: It's all standard old small block stuff though.
Quote
I contemplate the difference between crabbing the frame and just carting away the top. 
IMHO, it's considerably easier to wheelbarrow the frame/front end assembly away, leaving the motive unit sitting on "the box."
Quote
Keep track of the spacer washer on the left side of the swing arm.  It goes between the swing bearing and the swing arm.
Yours may have been assembled incorrectly. The spacer locates the swing arm, and is on the right side of the swing arm.
Reassemble like this:
Start the left locating screw into the swing arm. Slide the spacer between the swing arm and frame on the right side. Start the right side pin in so the swing arm is now located between the pins. Screw the left in until the swing arm is snug, but free to move. Tighten the jam nut. Then, screw in the right pin until it just pulls everything together, but the swing arm is still free to move. Tighten that jam nut. Easy peasey. No measuring.  :smiley:
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on September 10, 2019, 07:05:25 AM
Quote
I cannot find a replacement cable.  For now, I will try grinding down the head of the cable.
that is probably not a good idea.  :grin: Measure the length of the cable, and MG Cycle will have it, I imagine. About all Guzzi stuff is standard between models. Since this bike has been worked on by one of Pete's "shaved apes," make sure the cable in it is of the correct length, first.
Quote
I need to cut off
the grips to replace the whole clutch body..
Generally, you can inject high pressure air under the end of the grip. It will balloon, and you can slide it off. Not so if it's been glued down, though.. :wink:
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on September 14, 2019, 11:32:09 PM
Thanks for reading, Chuck.
I read in Guzziology that this bike is a restyled V65.  Standard small block stuff, but longer forks and 18" wheels.  They made a 350 and 1000cc version:
https://motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/moto%20guzzi/moto_guzzi_v65%20gt%2087.htm (https://motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/moto%20guzzi/moto_guzzi_v65%20gt%2087.htm)
I read elsewhere that these models were not exported to the US and was an effort by Guzzi in the late 80s to generate some cash.  Apparently it worked for my father,
who bought one in 1991 for 8,000,000 Lire.  I had it shipped to the US to continue the legacy.

I kind of agree with the wheel barrow method, now that I have done it.  Crabbing was my away of telling myself I could do this.  However, you have to have the space to set aside the top.

You are right about the swing arm spacer.  I wrote left, but it was on the right side (will edit).  I read your thread about this, so I won't mess it up.

About the clutch cable, I was on the phone with Rick from MG Cycle for at least half an hour.  He was extremely helpful, but in the end could not find a cable that fits.  I did grind down the head of the
cable without exposing the steel wire and got it to fit. 
(https://i.ibb.co/ZMY4Gbt/Clutch-Cable.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZMY4Gbt)

Later on I had to order a new nut for the gear box (10054100) from Stein-Dinse (Harper wants $123).  So I also got a new clutch cable.

Thanks for the tip on the grips.  These grips are so old that they hardened.  We'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on September 15, 2019, 12:02:23 AM
While waiting for the gear box parts, I washed the engine with Simple Green.  I used the spray bottle without diluting and waited a few minutes before rinsing with water.
It took away all the grime and did not compromise the paint.
This engine really needs to be media blasted and possibly repainted.  It's not difficult to find shops that will do it.  My hangup is what paint and color to use, if any at all.
I would like to restore it to the original milky-gray color.  There is some corrosion on the fins, so I think leaving it bare will make it corrode even more.

(https://i.ibb.co/K2DgK56/Engine-Washed.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K2DgK56)


I also found a mesh gasket for the exhaust pipes.  They are used on the V7, P/N:91113826.
MG Cycle carries it. http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_descripti on=1&keyword=91113826 (http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=advanced_search_result&search_in_description=1&keyword=91113826)
They seem to fit snug, but the real test will be when I fire up the engine.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on July 25, 2020, 09:46:50 PM
Almost a year has gone by with slow progress.
I had the bottom frame rails, the swing arm and the kick stand parts blasted and powder coated.

I could not get anyone to blast the paint on the assembled engine, not even soda blasted.
So I decided to strip the paint the hard way, with Rust- Oleum Aircraft Remover.
I covered up all the holes, swing bearing, shaft drive, etc.  Masking tape works well and does not break down with the paint stripper.
Gorilla tape is more robust, so I switched to that later on.

The spray can worked great, when it worked.  It makes the stripper foam up and does a great job between the fins.
However, after a while it doesn't spray a nice stream, it starts spitting.  Anyway, I also got the can and started painting it all over the engine.

(https://i.ibb.co/YpbDwwg/20200709-142809-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YpbDwwg)


Final drive too.

(https://i.ibb.co/YbxnMzh/20200719-143100-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YbxnMzh)


I go around in circles, as I treat one area, I cover it with a plastic bag while I scrape another area.

The transmission box is all clean now.
I found a lot of stains under the paint, even where the paint looked fine.  I tried blasting one area with baking soda, but it doesn't remove the stains.

(https://i.ibb.co/59T4jQG/20200719-182347-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/59T4jQG)


A bit more work on the fins.  They might not come completely clean.

(https://i.ibb.co/zRs5RXH/20200715-144933-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zRs5RXH)


After all the paint is off, I am going to soda blast it with a small gun.  It works well to remove stubborn paint deposits.
I was thinking of protecting the engine with a cleat coat, but with all these stains I will probably have to use paint.

Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on August 14, 2020, 06:10:04 PM
Everybody will look and say, "Looks good." Unless you've *done it,* those hours of labor go unnoticed.  :smiley:
Looks good.  :cool: :grin:
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on August 16, 2020, 12:24:37 PM
Thanks, Chuck.  And now that I've done it, I would not attempt it ever again.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on August 16, 2020, 01:04:54 PM
All the paint is off, except for some surface residue deep inside the fins.  The blasting does not reach well between the fins.
It's not noticeable and I ran out of stripper, so that's as far as I will go.
Paint stripping with chemicals was really nasty, it might have taken a few years off my life. 
The soda blasting gun worked really well, provided I waited for the compressor to recharge.  It needs at least 10scfm to keep
a decent pace.  I got 5@90, blast 45 seconds, wait 2 minutes.

(https://i.ibb.co/hc3Gyqf/P1040361.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hc3Gyqf)


(https://i.ibb.co/qj57mNf/P1040358.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qj57mNf)



The stains are really ugly, but I have decided not to paint it just because it's easier to keep the bare metal clean.
I tried using a wire wheel to get them off.  I went though 5 wheels, and it's a slow process again.
Vapor blasting is interesting.  I realized that many posters here leave it bare after doing that.  I think glass peening imparts
some protection to the metal because it doesn't pit like sand does.
It sounds scary, but I just want to "erase" some of the visible stains.  I would not blast the top end.  If I ever need to replace the
gaskets, I will take both heads off and have them vapor blasted.

So I have been searching for people willing to vapor blast the engine assembled.  Most shops around here (MA) have small blast
cabinets and can't fit the whole engine.  I found a company in CT, but too expensive.

I already got the gun, so I'll give dry glass bead blasting a try.  It won't give the same finish as the wet slurry, but I could buff it later... maybe?
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 16, 2020, 06:38:54 PM
Home-brewed vapor blasting set-up. Check out the rig "scudman" shows in this thread (1st page, about 1/3 the way down).
https://advrider.com/f/threads/scudman-gets-another-guzzi-project.1456684/

I think this may have been the kit he bought: https://www.amazon.com/Angela-Alex-Sandblasting-Sandblaster-Attachment/dp/B0856QHK8H
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on August 18, 2020, 11:14:28 PM
Aaaah, yes, the Angela&Alex kit.
Hello Charlie, thanks for reading!  :bow:
I received that same attachment this weekend and tested it out.  I don't have a strong enough pressure washer.
The soda flow was intermittent and when it flowed, it quickly clogged.
I found a video from Eastwood advertising a similar nozzle and they recommend a 3.5gpm rate. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ws3OrpR4CvE

Then I added the blasting gun and had it siphon the media into the water stream.  It flowed consistently, but baking soda is not abrasive enough.  No stains came off.

(https://i.ibb.co/qYDN88n/20200818-225124.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qYDN88n)


So, today I bought a box of glass media, which I will use dry first since it's easy to recover... we'll see.
I can't wait for the weekend again!
Meanwhile... I am getting drunk on vapor blasting videos and tutorials.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on September 07, 2020, 10:09:51 PM
I finally got to try the glass beads (40/70 grit from Harbor Freight), but without the appropriate blasting cabinet I would have to disperse
a bunch of glass dust all over my yard.  So, I wrapped the engine in a tarp, stuck the blasting gun inside and hit the engine blind.
The media worked well, but it was turning a shade of brown... pieces of the tarp.
Here are the usual before and after....

(https://i.ibb.co/8xwVyk1/20200822-172557.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8xwVyk1)
 
(https://i.ibb.co/Km1pCT6/20200822-174918.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Km1pCT6)

...and the crowd goes wild!  :rolleyes:

At this point I had to build a blasting cabinet, but didn't want to invest time in that.  That's a winter project.  I decided to improve on the tarp idea.
I had a roll of 6mil plastic
thin plywood
banjee cords
a piece of plexiglass
a bucket
a section of ventilated shelving
a 2x4 stud
a 12" swivel bearing: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Richelieu-Swivel-Plate-360-Degree-in-Galvanized-Steel/1000818576
2 saw horses
a mini soccer net
the inevitable duct tape...  Nah, Gorilla Tape!

I bought these blasting cabinet glove ports: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XGFZLP9 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XGFZLP9) and gloves https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B077YP72SP
These rings are overpriced, but work great.  I attached them to a piece of plywood, insulating the front (was not necessary) and taped the back.  Gorilla Tape is my new friend!

(https://i.ibb.co/235Hj2K/20200905-142904.jpg) (https://ibb.co/235Hj2K)

(https://i.ibb.co/4JQR1XM/20200905-145128.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4JQR1XM)


The gloves are not really for a cabinet.  Maybe some other dirty/wet job.  They reach past my elbow, the end cuffs are too stiff and my hands sweat too easily.  Oh well.
I attached the gloves to the rings with 7" hose clamps from Home Depot.

(https://i.ibb.co/LgVwS0N/20200905-151248.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LgVwS0N)


I cut two rectangular openings in the plastic.  I stapled the gloves panel below and taped the plexiglass above.

(https://i.ibb.co/Krbfk0z/20200905-172650.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Krbfk0z)

Who needs a cabinet, when you can make a tent?

I rested the engine on the ventilated shelf with the 2x4 under it, on top of the saw horses.  The shelf is too weak to hold a
113lb engine and makes it difficult to move it inside the tent.
I had seen blasting cabinets with an internal turntable, but the lazy susan did not work well because the engine is long (transmission attached)
and the tent is not deep enough.  I had to put the engine on a piece of 3/4" plywood, over the saw horses.

The plastic is under the plywood, shaped into a funnel and into a bucket.
I fed the air and media hoses through the hole for the bucket and had a... blast.
The media doesn't easily flow into the funnel, so I have to unwrap the tent and sweep the media into the bucket.
I covered the plywood with plastic, so it's easier to sweep.

The media still does the job after I recycled it 5 times.  Is there a limit?

Oh yeah, the bunjees and the soccer net?  The bunjees hold the tent closed and I used the frame of the soccer net to prop the tent over the engine.
One more day and I should be done with the engine.

What to do about the final drive box?!?  I can't blast that.  It will never spin again!  :undecided:
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on May 11, 2021, 11:57:58 PM
I finally got the engine all clean and polished.  This is the end result of a whole summer spent stripping and blasting.

(https://i.ibb.co/gMnKk1V/20201003-143545rot-4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gMnKk1V)
 
(https://i.ibb.co/0MGvKfp/20201003-143607.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0MGvKfp)


I started the assembly process a few weeks ago.  Reattached the gear box, rear drive and swing arm, rear tire, carburetors and air box.
The gear box shifts ok, so at least what started this project seems to be fixed.
I also attached the lower frame rails, but took them off to prevent scratching.  I still have some thing to check before full reassembly.

(https://i.ibb.co/m4h0fWD/20201024-194531.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m4h0fWD)
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: huub on May 12, 2021, 03:55:41 AM
nice results!
anybody who ever tried to get a guzzi engine back to bare metal will appreciate the amount of work...
I am lucky i have a specialist who did my le mans  engine,
blasting the engine and box it is the only part of the Restoration i did outsource.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on May 14, 2021, 09:33:28 AM
Thanks huub.  Having approached it from the cheap, I ended up getting the right tools for the job.  That's when I made real progress... not that I would want to do this again.
I did some more cleaning after those pictures and sprayed it with ACF50.  I hope that's enough to keep the metal looking nice.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on May 14, 2021, 10:26:07 PM
I decided that before I reassemble the bike, I would check the valve lash and the points.
I removed the valve covers and the right one was covered in soot.  The left one is as clean as new.  Below is after a bit of carb cleaner.

(https://i.ibb.co/8dzRCbQ/20210514-210949-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8dzRCbQ)   (https://i.ibb.co/NCqQ6SL/20210514-143105-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NCqQ6SL) 


I did a leak down test, with mixed results.
The left side held pressure withing 2-3 psi, all the way to 90 psi.
However, at this pressure I feel air leaking out of the pushrods of the other cylinder, from the rockers area  :huh:  Is that normal?
This happens for both cylinders.  Perhaps it's through the pushrod cam?

The right side is a not as good.  It holds within 2-3 psi up to 40psi.  Then it falls about 12 psi behind.
So, it looks like a 10 to 13% leak.  Not horrible, but due for a lap.
I can hear air coming out of both the intake and the exhaust.  The oil fill hole is quiet.

I sprayed a bunch of carb cleaner in both intake and exhaust, hoping that carbon deposits will melt away and make a better seal.
I will check pressure again tomorrow.  I am going to postpone opening the head until I can check for compression.  I'll give it the Seafoam treatment.
Time to work on the points.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on May 20, 2021, 10:31:50 PM
While checking the points gap I noticed that the one for the left cylinder (right one in picture) does not make good contact.  The spring is very weak and
it makes a longer loop than the spring for the right cylinder.

(https://i.ibb.co/n1GX64x/P1040366-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n1GX64x)

  I posted a question about this, but I got a number of recommendations to switch to a Dyna S.
To get the bike going for now, I decided to replace the points.
I bought this kit from MG Cycle: https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_157&products_id=899
Plus the advance springs, just in case I feel patient enough to remove the points plate: https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_157&products_id=2477

When I removed the old points I figured out why the spring is weak.  The white isolating spacer melted onto the spring.  The ignition coil must have shorted out and overheated the contact, which caused the spring to loose its... memory.  In fact, the left cylinder ignition coil is different, probably replaced after a failure.

(https://i.ibb.co/x5SV75p/P1040375-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/x5SV75p)


Replacing the points was easy.  Adjusting the gap took a long time.  What a PITA!  At least the workshop manual explains how to do this.
The weird thing about the new springs is that they are a bit long, so they both make a wide loop now.  I guess that's they way they make them now.
I also had to enlarge the hole for the screw that holds the contact, since it didn't quite line up with the hole.

(https://i.ibb.co/0J7bhKm/20210516-111334-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0J7bhKm)



Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on May 21, 2021, 11:43:27 PM
I decided to look inside the cylinder and the valves with a camera.  The pistons seem to be in good shape, besides dirty.  There seems to be
a fuel burning issue on the right cylinder because it is covered with carbon.  I expected the left one to be more dirty.
Both heads definitely need to come off for a cleaning and a valve job.

Right piston                               Intake                                         Exhaust
(https://i.ibb.co/7JsrsC1/20210521124751475-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7JsrsC1)  (https://i.ibb.co/VDg04nk/20210521130828477-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VDg04nk)    (https://i.ibb.co/HXd4SKw/20210521131700203-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HXd4SKw)

Left piston                                 Intake                                         Exhaust
(https://i.ibb.co/ypLmHJN/20210521133058094-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ypLmHJN)   (https://i.ibb.co/vwPc0Wd/20210521132518001-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vwPc0Wd)   (https://i.ibb.co/YRZ787n/20210521132354865-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YRZ787n)

Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on June 03, 2021, 11:44:54 PM
After hanging from rafters of my garage for over a year, the frame is back together and the bike is standing on its own again.
(https://i.ibb.co/7X9tC4M/20210522-222706-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7X9tC4M)

Installing the center kick stand springs was a chore and a half.  They didn't reach and I couldn't remember how I took them off.
After a bit of googling, I used my bike jack to stretch them and stuffed them with dimes.  Hooked the springs in and yanked out the coins with pliers.
(https://i.ibb.co/JtgcK8r/20210522-221451-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JtgcK8r)    (https://i.ibb.co/HrzrkLp/20210522-220400-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HrzrkLp)


Installed carbs, trimmed new fuel lines https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4391
New clutch cable https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?products_id=857
New spark wires.  I bought this kit https://www.harpermoto.com/spark-plug-wire-set-061080.html (https://www.harpermoto.com/spark-plug-wire-set-061080.html), which comes with a strange
combination of wires.  One wire is very short and has coil connectors crimped on both sides.  I wonder what it's for.
New NGK BP8ES plugs as well.

There are some cables and a hose that are routed between the cylinders, where it's hot.  These are the generator and points wires, the clutch cable and
the basement vent hose.  I fed them through this fiberglass heat shield sleeve:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZF8957W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07RLS2G77/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Hopefully they survive longer than the originals.

I need to figure out the infamous gear box vent.  On the internet I found a few creative ways to fix this.
For now I took apart the vent to see how I can attach a hose to it.  The air box leaves me less than an inch of clearance above the vent to fit a hose.
(https://i.ibb.co/8YLzfZV/20201122-124250-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8YLzfZV)
I am thinking of JB welding a piece of 1/4" copper tubing, inside the vent, bent away from the air box.  We'll see how it fits.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 04, 2021, 09:02:15 AM

Installed carbs, trimmed new fuel lines https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4391
New clutch cable https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_info.php?products_id=857
New spark wires.  I bought this kit https://www.harpermoto.com/spark-plug-wire-set-061080.html (https://www.harpermoto.com/spark-plug-wire-set-061080.html), which comes with a strange
combination of wires.  One wire is very short and has coil connectors crimped on both sides.  I wonder what it's for.


I need to figure out the infamous gear box vent.  On the internet I found a few creative ways to fix this.
For now I took apart the vent to see how I can attach a hose to it.  The air box leaves me less than an inch of clearance above the vent to fit a hose.
(https://i.ibb.co/8YLzfZV/20201122-124250-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8YLzfZV)
I am thinking of JB welding a piece of 1/4" copper tubing, inside the vent, bent away from the air box.  We'll see how it fits.

Those fuel hose assemblies have been known to fail at the crossover - the hose deteriorates and shrinks with age, loosens up and leaks. Fire is a distinct possibility, just ask Chuck in Indiana. I use the metal crossover piece, just different hose and clamps that can be tightened. Or better yet, use dual-inlet banjos instead: https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=30&products_id=2099

The plug wires are for a Loopframe, just as the description states: "Fits Ambassador, Eldorado, V700, V7 Special and 850 GT".

I use the fitting from a big-block 5 spd. transmission for the vent on small-blocks: https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=55&products_id=4348 Yes, it's tight around the airbox.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on June 04, 2021, 09:50:54 PM
Thanks for the advice, Charlie.
I figured since it's called "best quality rubber hose" it wouldn't have that problem.
Did you cut off the crimps at the cross and replaced them with hose clamps?  I suppose I can reuse the hose and the clamps make up for the shrinkage?

The bike had that straight fitting installed, but the hose kinked from being pushed down by the air box.
Over time the kink filled with oil crud and had practically closed.  So, I thought I would do something with the lower profile vent.
If I attach a hose to the original vent, I need a 1/2" hose.  That doesn't fit around the air box.  I JB Weld a piece of copper tubing inside the vent,
bent at an angle, away from the air box.  I can't bend the tubing sharp enough, so still not enough clearance.

(https://i.ibb.co/ZWDqPdH/20210521-134951.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZWDqPdH)

I gave up and went back to the straight fitting.

I found various adapters from M10-1.5 to other threads, but it's a kludge.
Someone with a lathe should reproduce the straight fitting with a shorter barb for 1/4" hose.  I would use it on the final drive too.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on June 05, 2021, 08:39:24 AM
Thanks for the advice, Charlie.
I figured since it's called "best quality rubber hose" it wouldn't have that problem.
Did you cut off the crimps at the cross and replaced them with hose clamps?  I suppose I can reuse the hose and the clamps make up for the shrinkage?

I cut the crimps and throw away everything but the cross. I prefer transparent hose and use spring clamps to secure it. But, replacing the crimps with actual clamps (something like this: https://www.mcmaster.com/53175K86/ ) will work.

On my recently acquired V50 III, I'll be using a M10 brake fitting w/hose that I already have secured by an M10-1.5 banjo bolt purchased on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Russell-640680-10mm-Banjo-Bolt/dp/B003CGSS76 I may need to shorten the bolt so that spring preload is same as with the original fitting.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on June 07, 2021, 07:50:27 AM
Thanks for the tip.  I ordered those clamps.  They look similar to the original ones.

I had not thought of a brake fitting.  Brilliant idea.
I have seen those bolts, but it seemed like the hole is wider than the spring.
Maybe it's a generic picture?
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on July 03, 2021, 04:58:08 PM
I cut the crimps and throw away everything but the cross. I prefer transparent hose and use spring clamps to secure it. But, replacing the crimps with actual clamps (something like this: https://www.mcmaster.com/53175K86/ ) will work.
Hello Charlie, I took your advice and used the original cross pipes, which already had one clamp replaced.  I cut off all the crimps and used https://www.mcmaster.com/5187K64/ (https://www.mcmaster.com/5187K64/) and standard worm drive hose clamps.

On my recently acquired V50 III, I'll be using a M10 brake fitting w/hose that I already have secured by an M10-1.5 banjo bolt purchased on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Russell-640680-10mm-Banjo-Bolt/dp/B003CGSS76 I may need to shorten the bolt so that spring preload is same as with the original fitting.
I am happy to report that this approach works, but... I had to use a 1/4" barb fitting banjo: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07N2PQ7WS/ (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07N2PQ7WS/)  and this hose: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FEYLNTE/ (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FEYLNTE/)
Otherwise the bolt you found is too short.  This banjo is 10m thick and you don't need to cut the bolt.  The protruding threads are only 0.5mm longer compared to the Guzzi barb fitting, including washers.  Thank you very much for this suggestion.  I have agonized over this stupid thing for months.
I haven't run the bike yet, but I can't imagine this not working.  I guess I have to figure out what to do with the other end of the hose.
(https://i.ibb.co/nkbGMhk/20210626-183545-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nkbGMhk)

Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on July 25, 2021, 01:06:52 PM
Yesterday was the best and worst day for this project.  The engine started, but... runs like crap, erratic timing, hanging idle, the brakes are weak,
I dumped the bike, broke a mirror, lost a few skin cells and the transmission is still broken!

I spent the last two weeks buttoning up everything.  The exhaust pipes gave me a good fight.  Static timing was spot on (used light bulb).
It was time to fire it up.
After a bunch of tries it finally sputtered and ran, shaking like a newborn.
I removed the choke and the idle settled to 1500rpm.  As the engine warmed up, the rpms went up to 3000, 4000.  I tapped the choke and
it went back to 1500.  OK, the carbs need tweaking.
I pulled the speed screw 3 turns out and the idle hangs much less, but still needs a second or two for revs to come down after quick throttle.
The mixture screw is 1 turn out. 

BTW: I am using Premium, 93 octane gas.  Spark plugs are NGK BPR6ES.
I didn't realize the plug caps have a 5k resistor, so I ordered new BP8ES, also lower temp. 

I read that hanging throttle is a lean mixture problem, which is counterintuitive to me.  The engine keeps rev'ing, so I would think that it is a rich mixture.
Pulling the choke should make the mixture richer and make it race, so why does the engine calm down instead?  Chi ne capisce?

The timing is really shaky.  It can spot the 7deg mark @1400 rpm, but very bouncy on both cylinders.  I read this is typical of points.
I am going to leave this alone for now.  Dyna may be in future plans.
I hooked up vacuum gauges and the carbs are reasonably balanced.  I am keeping the screws the same on both carbs.

Time for a ride.  The brakes can stop the bike when pushing with my legs, that's good.
First gear is in, started rolling, pulled the brakes... nothing.  I put my feet down, but this is no bicycle.  It doesn't stop easily.
Pushing it back to the garage, I lean too far on the left and the bike goes down, in slow motion as I try to hold it.
The rear view mirror snaps off and I singe my leg on the exhaust.
I spent a whole day flushing the linked brakes from both directions.  Finally, they feel stiff and seem to work.
I'll deal with the front brake later.  Back to the street.
I start rolling and do a few short stops.  This was my first brake flush ever and it worked.  I read how much trouble this can be,
so I blame beginner's luck.  I can't lock the wheels, but looking at the rotors (old), the pads may need to "bed-in".

So, off I go again.  First gear, good.  Second gear, good.  Third...  third... it doesn't engage.  Damn!
Maybe I need to adjust the lever.  Back to the garage.
I burn myself again while repositioning the shift pedal, but the pedal is not the problem.  So, I went for a slow ride in second gear.

I will mope for some time (again) thinking about having to pull the transmission out (again).   :cry:
The transmission had a broken spring (61238200) and it was replaced.  I tried shifting the gears before reassembling the bike.  I couldn't do it by hand
and I suspected it wasn't working.  The repair shop convinced me I needed to install it to test it.  I wish there was a better way.

Meanwhile, I will check compression, leakage and flush the front brake.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: berniebee on July 25, 2021, 08:34:57 PM
Sorry to hear about your setback.

One cause of the engine hanging at high rpm is too tight valve clearances. Also make sure that there is a bit of free play in the throttle.

Hang in there!
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on July 26, 2021, 04:35:55 PM
Thanks for the tips, berniebee.
I will check the valves... again.  The cable has about 2mm of free play.

Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on October 20, 2021, 03:23:30 PM
A month ago I took the bike to a shop regarding the shifting and with a bit of a tweak of the eccentric screw and
a lighter oil (Motul 75W90 gear oil) I am now able to change gears, but not easily.
I have to "flick" up the shifter twice and the next gear will engage.  Also going down, I have to press the shifter twice before I can feel the next gear.
Sometimes I find neutral between 2nd and third gear.
I tightened the clutch cable better and it seems to have helped.
I think I need to play with the eccentric screw some more.

The hung idle problem has gone away.  I guess it was the cracked carb float and it needed to run a bit to clear out carbon build up.
The spark plugs now are dry and gray/brown.  Before the fix, the right one was always black and wet.

I finally measured compression and got 170psi on both sides.  :thumb:

Timing is still a bit shaky.  I hate mechanical points.  I need to look into a Dyna kit.
The rockers also make quite some noise.  I am not sure if it's excessive.  I checked the gaps and still holding
at 0.15/0.2mm on both heads.

The clutch is really touchy.  It has a very short friction zone.  It's taking some time to get used to it.
This bike has one clutch plate, so maybe it's worn out (21k miles).

I went on a 30mile ride a few days ago and  the infamous oil pressure light came on.  It was a hot day with plenty of traffic.
The light first started shimmering at low rpm, then it went solid.  There was plenty of oil in the sump.
I didn't want to risk anything, so I towed the bike home (it's nice to have a brother with a trailer).
The next morning I started it and the light did not come on.  Drove around town for an hour, no light.
A search on this forum found that this is a common problem.  I can't get to the pressure switch without taking the
air box out, so winter project.
I am using ENI i-Sint 10W40.  Looking through a couple manuals, Guzzi recommended 10w40 at one time, then changed to
10W50 (V65 Florida).  I drained a bit of it and added a quart of 20W50 cuz that's what I could find.
I will take that 30 mile ride again and see what happens.

I also found an interesting project to add a pressure gauge. 
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_oil_pressure_gauge.html
Maybe this winter.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: berniebee on October 21, 2021, 12:06:40 PM

I have to "flick" up the shifter twice and the next gear will engage.  Also going down, I have to press the shifter twice before I can feel the next gear.

I think I need to play with the eccentric screw some more.

The clutch is really touchy.  It has a very short friction zone.  It's taking some time to get used to it.
This bike has one clutch plate, so maybe it's worn out (21k miles).

And now some advice from someone who hasn't completed his Guzzi project yet: :tongue: (But I have worked on many bikes.)

I've read that the Guzzi requires a more deliberate (Which I interpret as slow and firm) foot to shift, than say a Japanese bike of the same era.
Having rebuilt a Guzzi gearbox I know that adjusting the eccentric screw will affect shifting in one direction or the other, but not both at the same time. In other words if the shifting is equally poor going up and down the gears, adjusting the eccentric probably won't help. But if you are going to play with it, turn it only 1/6th of a turn (one bolt flat) at a time and then try riding.

Check that your clutch cable isn't binding. Eliminate any sharp turns and if the cable is strapped/ Tie wrapped/ zip tied to the frame at any point, free the cable completely and see if the clutch action is better. Finally take the cable off, lube it, lube each end barrel where it rubs against the lever. That will probably eliminate the cable as the culprit.  Having said all that, I lubed the old cable on my Guzzi, and it appeared to be free and easy when I had it off the bike. But the clutch lever still required a grip of steel to disengage the clutch. I installed a new cable and the clutch lever force required was reduced by about half. The old clutch cable was binding only when under tension.


Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on November 09, 2021, 05:17:40 PM
Thanks for the tips, berniebee.  I have been riding to figure out the shifting pattern.
First, the gears go in and out no problem when the engine is cold.
Once warmed up this is the sequence I have to do for 3-5th:  lift up to 3rd (feels as if no more gears), very slight tap down (I feel a bit of give), then lift up.
On the second lift up, the gear goes in normally with that glorious clunk sound.
It is not 100% consistent.  Sometimes I do the sequence for 3rd gear, then 4th and 5th go in with first lift.
Other times, all three gears need the sequence.
Going down, I need to pump the lever twice.  The first try feels like no more gears, on the second try it shifts down.

I can't get to the eccentric screw easily and I read on the forum that people cut a wrench to get in there.
I plan on turning it one flat at a time until it's all the way in, but no more than one revolution.  Then unscrewing one flat at a time, no more than one revolution.
I might not get to this until the spring.  It's looking like time to pack it in for winter here in New England.
I know that if I turn it all the way out, it will pull out of the spring and it's game over.  Is there any danger in turning it all the way in?

I sprayed the clutch cable with this lube: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001F2Y25G
Then ran the cable outside as direct as possible.  No change in force.
I put it all back and adjusted the tension at the lever and seemed better now.
I also got used to the short friction zone, so maybe the problem is my hand, not the bike  :laugh:
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: huub on November 14, 2021, 01:05:09 PM
sounds like the shift spring is on its way out.
a pretty common fault with these.
the spring is cheap, but unfortunately the box needs to come apart to change it
nice project for the winter....
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on November 14, 2021, 02:20:54 PM
I guess I could have a bad one.
The spring broke some time ago, so I started this project.
I had it replaced, the part came from Stein Dinse.
The shifting was bad from the first day I got it running again.

I've read that it could be installed backwards, but I don't think the
shop that did the work would make that mistake.
Perhaps the shop didn't test the shifting after a dry assembly.
And I didn't think of it until I put it all back together.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on November 16, 2021, 07:39:38 AM
Quote
Perhaps the shop didn't test the shifting after a dry assembly.
And I didn't think of it until I put it all back together.
Sounds like you will get to do it, now.  :smiley: There is obviously something wrong. Fortunately.. it's a 2 hour job to get to it on the small block.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on February 26, 2022, 09:37:49 PM
I finally resigned to the fact that I can't fix the shifting problem
from the outside. So I crabbed the frame again.
It was painful to do, thinking about all the care I took to
reassemble it.
On the bright side, I couldn't believe how filthy it was after
a few hundred miles on dry roads last summer.
I wish the rear fender went down below the swing arm.
All clean again.

(https://i.ibb.co/NYP9Dm5/20220221-171735.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NYP9Dm5)


Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on March 31, 2022, 12:35:27 PM
With the gear box on the bench I confirmed the same shifting issues: it went into 1st and 2nd, then to get to 3rd I had to shift up,
tap down a bit and then up again.
I adjusted the cam screw a bit, but the pattern was not changing, nor improving.
I decided to take advantage of this great forum and contacted Scout63 for advice.  He was extremely generous in lending his time, his knowledge,
his shop, his tools, his grease, his mineral spirits, a ham and cheese snack and most importantly his confidence.  He didn't show hesitation in opening
the box and, like a kid wanting to learn to ride a bike but afraid to fall, I inhaled all the confidence and dove in.
Look at these beautiful trees with flowers on them!

(https://i.ibb.co/4VLxjq4/P1040516.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4VLxjq4)   (https://i.ibb.co/mXT6z7G/P1040514.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mXT6z7G)


But I am getting ahead of myself.
I am also grateful for many posts I found on this forum.  Just search for "gear box" many stories came up from others who repaired their gear box.
There is also a write-up by Nick Webb referenced in many posts and here it is again:
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical_gearbox-repair-breva-750-pictures.htm
Nick refers to a Wildgoose post where all the work was also discussed among two other folks who had similar problems.  Unfortunately that
post was deleted.  I am not able to track down Nick for questions, but Muzz is on this forum (thank you Muzz).
As well as factory training videos:
http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_technical_training_videos_eng.html
Also, while this other write-up is for big blocks, many tips and ideas can be leveraged, so thank you John Noble for this:
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical_gearbox-rebuilding-pictures.htm

In the process of researching and opening the box we realized that, even though special tools are useful, there are ways around it.  That was one
of the obstacles I was creating in my head.  A pneumatic or electric impact wrench will do, if you can accept a compromise in re-assembly (read on).
With an impact wrench, you don't need to undo the nut on the input shaft.  This is the dreaded 10Kgm torqued nut, in the middle of the picture.

(https://i.ibb.co/Xyzstw6/20220326-154105.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xyzstw6)

The only reason for removing that nut, barring any bearing or seal damage, is so that you can use the shaft and its gear to hold the lay shaft, under
the clutch housing.  That would be using the gear on the right side of the picture below to mesh with the lay shaft gear on the left.  Then, you need the special
spline shaft holder tool to undo the nut on the lay shaft.  Even though I saw the videos and did plenty of reading, it didn't click until I did this work.
I guess I am not the sharpest tool in the shed.

(https://i.ibb.co/JnVQRkG/20220326-154428.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JnVQRkG)


So, the first step in opening the box is to remove all the allen screws on the inside of the clutch cover and pop it off.
BTW, the picture above shows the clutch push rod. I put that in later and it should be removed before you start opening the box.

The next step is to take that impact wrench and unscrew the nut on the lay shaft.  Remember to pry open the punch in the lip of the nut!
Here is a zoom in:

(https://i.ibb.co/FqGpk80/20220326-163128.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FqGpk80)


   ...more to come.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on March 31, 2022, 06:40:52 PM
Looking around the box, I found these two interesting stamps.  I guess the box was cast in 1983?
I cannot make out what the other stamp says.

(https://i.ibb.co/zV1F0Zk/P1040519.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zV1F0Zk)


The next step is to remove the vent because it has a detente pin that slides into slots on the fork drum to stop it at the right position (see top of drum below).
I added a banjo to the vent to route any overflow into a bottle next to the battery.  You don't have to remove the neutral switch.
Next, undo all the allen screws at the back of the gear box.  The housing comes off with a few taps. This is another view of the guts:

(https://i.ibb.co/0ZqXC6d/P1040515.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0ZqXC6d)


When I first opened the box, the gear selector was in a position similar to below:

(https://i.ibb.co/y88pQNF/P1040517.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y88pQNF)

After a few hours of shifting gears and observing how it works, I realized that the shifter was returning to a bad position.
Except for 1st, neutral and 5th, both teeth are supposed to touch a pin of the drum.  For neutral, the first drum pin should be in between the teeth.
In 1st, the inner tooth should be touching the first pin and in 5th the outer tooth should be touching the last pin.
This is neutral position, also noted by the two round cutouts on the bottom plate of the drum lined up with the shifter teeth:

(https://i.ibb.co/GpRtfk8/00013-Moment.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GpRtfk8)

The cutouts (easier seen on next picture) should allow you to remove the drum without removing the shifter.

This is second gear.  Note how the teeth are touching the pins.  I could hear a click when both teeth snap onto the pins of the drum, ready to move to the next gear.

(https://i.ibb.co/VWPbZTq/00013-Moment.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VWPbZTq)

BTW: I had to keep spinning the shafts to get the forks to move.

After a few more hours and just about giving up, I tried different positions of the eccentric screw, one flat at a time.  I marked the nut where I started.
On the fourth try, I started getting repeatable shifting and the snappy sound of the teeth grabbing the next pin of the drum.
Did I fix it?  I don't know for sure.  The real test will be when I run it at speed.



Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on May 07, 2022, 12:58:25 PM
After much thinking and recurring bad dreams, I decided to check if shifting works while the gears spin.
I attached a drill to the lay shaft and spun it slowly.
Only three gears were engaging, WT...???

(https://i.ibb.co/GPQKv3k/20220502-103211.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GPQKv3k)


I turned the eccentric screw again and got to a position where all the gears clicked in. The downshifting is especially smooth and I can even find neutral.
I was turning the screw by one nut face at a a time, like I read online.
That was too much. It needed to be in between.  Seems too finicky,  but it works.
Time to reassemble everything. If it doesn't shift once installed and warmed up, hopefully the screw will be the answer.

I still have to figure out how to properly torque the big nuts.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Canuck750 on May 07, 2022, 10:03:24 PM
Great work! impressed with your dedication to sorting it out. I have never seen the model you are working on, its an attractive bike.

I find transmissions, especialy getting the shift to smoothly function up and down a real challenge. I have had more than one transmission out and stripped several times before I understood it and sorted it.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on May 10, 2022, 01:57:06 PM
Thank you, Canuck!  :bow:
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Muzz on June 20, 2022, 05:20:21 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/GPQKv3k/20220502-103211.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GPQKv3k)



Never thought of doing it like that. :embarrassed:
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on June 20, 2022, 04:30:28 PM
Hey, Muzz.  That came to me in a dream, after pinching my fingers in the gears many times.

I gave up on tightening the nuts my self.  I did not have a solid way of holding the gear box while working the wrenches.
I even bought the special tools from the dealer ($160 for both) and I could not hold the box steady in a vise.  I was afraid to break it or scratch it.
If I had a welder, I might have built the jig to put the box in a vise, but I had lost my patience.  I wanted to ride the bike.
So I went to a Guzzi dealer near me.  I gave them new nuts, gaskets and the whole assembly.  They had it together in less than an hour... and another $150  :cry:
I reassembled the bike a couple weeks ago.  Shifting gears on the kick stand seemed to work.

Scout63 helped me build the confidence to do this work myself.   A heat gun worked wonders to extract the bearings from the gear box.
We took the gear trees out and cleaned them.  We put it all back together without really finding anything wrong.
The eccentric screw was not set properly, but I don't think I would have gotten it to work without seeing what's going on inside the box.

I've been riding for a week now and all the gears are working.  I do hit a neutral sometimes, but I think I need to rotate the shift level one notch to make it easier on my foot.
The downshifting is kind of hard.  I need to push down with my foot more than I expect.  I might have to play with the screw some more.

Here it is now with new windshield and LED lights.

(https://i.ibb.co/McTHYJz/20220604-161155-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/McTHYJz)


After a 120 mile ride last week, I discovered one of the front forks has a slight oil leak.  Here we go again.
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: CharlieW on July 25, 2022, 06:07:36 AM
Hello Pescatore
 I talked with you at NH Rally a little bit.
 Fabulous job on your Dads Bike. After all that work it is Your Bike now.
 I learned so much from the Wild Goose Guys, I dont think I could do what you accomplished .
 Nice to meet you and look forward to meeting you again.
 Great Story
 CharlieW
Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on July 25, 2022, 01:33:14 PM
Hi Charlie, thanks for the nice comment.
I hope this helps someone else with a small block engine.
I am cautiously optimistic about going far places with this bike.  I will try to make it to more rallies.
Nice to meet you and thanks for posting pictures.

Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Pescatore on January 20, 2023, 03:53:42 PM
I put on about 500 miles this past summer, so I decided to give it a clean before storing for winter.
I realized there is a film of oil on the left side of the bike, from the carbs all the way to the swing arm.  The right side is fairly clean.
After some poking I realized the left side head gasket is leaking just a smidge.
Looks like I'll be taking off the left head, probably both heads.  And the left fork is also leaking.
The replacement parts arrived, so looks like I'll be freezing my butt in the garage this winter.

Title: Re: Sessantacinque GT rehab (V65 GT), frame crabbing, gear box, transmission
Post by: Scout63 on January 22, 2023, 03:32:28 PM
Welcome to the unheated garage club...