Author Topic: Timing Chain Life Span?  (Read 4900 times)

Offline Tom H

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Timing Chain Life Span?
« on: March 04, 2020, 12:18:04 AM »
On a round fin with a timing chain (or square fin for that matter), about how many miles should it last before you have to change it?

I'm not talking about a race bike, just a daily normal commuting driver.

Also...Do you need to change the gears as well with each chain or "something like" every X number of chains.

Thank you,
Tom
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Offline Brian UK

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2020, 01:58:38 AM »
It's the tensioner which gives up not the chain.
It's a duplex chain running in oil, should last 100k miles with no problems.
Brian.

Offline Old Jock

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2020, 04:33:59 AM »
Agree the standard tensioner isn't really up to the job so the chain can get sloppy and snatchy, chain can last 100k miles easy, so it should be fine

Most install a Valtech/Stucchi, or a late Guzzi model tennsioner depending on their take on it (like all things Guzzi there will be a LOT of different opinions as to what works best)

Personally if going to the trouble of going there anyway, if I was replacing the chain, I'd replace the sprockets too




Offline Tom H

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2020, 11:45:26 AM »
The manual tensioner appears to be fully to the left with no more adjustment and there is still movement in the chain. Maybe this engine has over 100,000 on it?

Thank you,
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2020, 11:45:26 AM »

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2020, 12:27:51 PM »
The manual tensioner appears to be fully to the left with no more adjustment and there is still movement in the chain. Maybe this engine has over 100,000 on it?

Thank you,
Tom

I recently pulled one apart with 30k miles on it. The tensioner was fully to the left and the chain still had slack. It's rare that the o.e. "fixed" tensioner will actually tension the chain, even at low miles.
Charlie

Offline berniebee

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2020, 12:48:39 PM »
It's rare that the o.e. "fixed" tensioner will actually tension the chain, even at low miles.

Does that mean the chain must be replaced, or is there an alternative chain tensioner that can take up the slack?

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2020, 01:21:30 PM »
Does that mean the chain must be replaced, or is there an alternative chain tensioner that can take up the slack?

Chain and tensioner should be replaced.
Charlie

Offline Tom H

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2020, 01:50:52 PM »
Thanks all for the info! Looks like I need a new chain and probably go with the Valtech.

I guess that the manual tensioner really should be called a slop catcher :laugh:

Thanks again!
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
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Offline Murray

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2020, 01:58:15 PM »
About 90 000kms with an aftermarket tensioner/valtech.

Offline moto-uno

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2020, 02:28:31 PM »
 At least 150k kilometers and over 2 decades since using a new chain and the proper sprung loaded tensioner . I doubt I'll change it again in this lifetime  :grin: . Peter

Offline Stevex

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2020, 11:43:17 AM »
Checked my tensioner at 33K miles. It was toast and had allowed the chain to wear excessively.
I put a Valtec in and replaced the chain.
btw you can buy a Mercedes Benz chain that is identical to the Guzzi one, except it has a split link and you have to remove some links
to get it to the correct size. I thought twice about the split link but I thought, if it works for MB it'll be fine in the Guzzi.
Sorry I can't find the part number, but I got the MB info from this forum, so hopefully, someone can help out with that.
From memory I only had to remove the lower sprocket in the chest.


« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 11:45:50 AM by Stevex »

Offline 80CX100

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2020, 12:42:57 PM »
btw you can buy a Mercedes Benz chain that is identical to the Guzzi one, except it has a split link and you have to remove some links
to get it to the correct size. I thought twice about the split link but I thought, if it works for MB it'll be fine in the Guzzi.
Sorry I can't find the part number, but I got the MB info from this forum, so hopefully, someone can help out with that.




     I have that info (copied below) saved with a note that the info originally came from Steve Ford.

     When I did the timing chain on my CX100 a few years ago, I gave the Mercedes Benz parts numbers to a local Euro Car Dealer, I recall a bit of confusion over the parts numbers system having been updated.

      In the end I bought a timing chain designed for a MB V8, that fit my big block, that was long enough to make 21/2 (not 3 as stated in the post) chains for my guzzi for about the same cost as shipping 1 guzzi chain up from the US with the poor dollar exchange rate etc. If someone really needs that part number, I could dig through stock and provide it.

      It made sense for me in Canada to make it from MB stock available locally, and have a free spare chain in hand; but if I lived in the US where a pre-made timing chain might be be available locally at a much lower cost, you might be changing 4 quarters for a dollar, fwiw.

       "Joe, could you please confirm the chain's part number?
I've found 000-997-69-94-MBZ for the genuine Mercedes part and 000-997-69-94-M48 for Iwis, the OEM supplier.
Thanks.
000-997-69-94 is the OEM MBZ number for the 2.8 liter twin cam 6 cylinder engine, 000-997-76-94 in the part number for the 4.5 liter v8. I use the v8 chain because it makes 3 guzzi chains, the 6 cylinder chain is shorter so you may just get 2."

       Edit; Just for fun I dug out the box so there would be a proper record of it here, the chain is labeled IWIS motorsysteme 000 997 76 94, if you go that route, make sure you order spare master links, because the chain only comes with one.

        Upon reflection a further note about the install, I had read about the difficulty some people were having getting the ValTec tensioner into position, and the recommendation from a few people was, just manhandle it in, it's strong it won't break! I proved that theory wrong, it's only plastic after all, from experience the plastic will break right where the mounting post goes through it, if you try hard enough, js,lol
      fyi

     Kelly
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 01:26:14 PM by 80CX100 »
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Offline John A

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2020, 05:12:11 PM »
Im waiting on parts...





 the oil pump gear is worn out, compared to an unknown one from aCal2
more later
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 05:13:49 PM by John A »
John
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Offline Tom H

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2020, 06:23:52 PM »
Which is the worn one?

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline John A

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2020, 09:11:26 PM »
The one closest to the camera is the worn one.  On a non worn one you can see scallops in the valley,  I’m guessing from a dull tool in manufacture.  It’s done over 100 K miles and was still tight with the new style tensioner.  Last oil change there was paste on the magnetic drain plug.  When I drained it this time there was more paste and shining a strong light on the drain oil showed more sparklies.   I ordered a new chain and oil pump,  the old pump is still serviceable but was getting loose .
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 08:30:35 AM by John A »
John
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Offline wirespokes

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2020, 11:40:05 PM »
What's the story on the tensioners? I've heard there are the Valtech and the Guzzi. It looks like the Guzzi is metal and a completely different design from the Valtech. Since the Valtech is plastic, I'd be tempted to go with the Guzzi - but what do I know? I'd like to hear pros and cons. Just guessing, but is the Guzzi tensioner a lot more expensive?

Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2020, 01:23:59 AM »
Is there a pool of wisdom regarding the efficacy of the Valtek tensioner ?
I’m about to start work on my Norge with a view to removing the excess casting material in the timing chest to allow for the fitment of same..
Is there any info out there  to suggest that the Valtek item will put excess load on the oil pump bearings ?
Also, has anyone replaced the piddly standard setup with the Valtek and did it prove a worthwhile mod ?
Is it quieter ?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 01:37:07 AM by Huzo »

Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2020, 04:32:09 AM »
You just have to pay attention to the casting boss for the front cover bolt.
As per the picture, the top rests against the inner part of the engine case, the spring tension bows the blade to produce control of the chain.
The spring run over that boss (deflecting it) could produce extra tension, how much is to much is anyone's guess but there seems to be 1000's in service with no issue.
#
When the Moto Guzzi community accepts, biff your final drive on the bench to seat the outer bearing when shimming, the tweaked spring on the Valtec is hardly worth mentioning.  :laugh:
The lump in question, is that which is in the region of the oil pump retaining bolts (not present in this shot), not the one to which you refer.
Just to the right of the two @ the 3 &4 o’clock positions.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 04:58:26 AM by Huzo »

Offline lazlokovacs

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2020, 06:20:22 AM »
I had a totally stock Calvin 2009 that did around 15k miles before its tensioner shattered into little pieces, chain slipped off the oil pump and hey presto one seized motor.

nice.

Offline moto-uno

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2020, 07:32:28 AM »
  I forgot to mention in my previous post the the sprung loaded chain tensioner was a Valtec unit .
I believe you're over thinking the possible damage from this unit loading the oil pump bearings .
As mentioned, 150k , quiet , totally trouble free , cheap , what more could you ask for ?( oh yeah , and 2 decades ).
Peter

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2020, 07:45:39 AM »
What are the specs for the chain? Number of links, pitch,roller size ,etc. .

Offline moto-uno

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2020, 08:04:25 AM »
^ It's less than $60 for a replacement from MG .  Peter
You don't want to screw around with master links and split roller industrial chains , do you ?

Offline John A

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2020, 08:38:14 AM »
Les P


Did you put the oil cups in the cam retainer?  Seem like a good idea for controlling end float on hi milers.  Does it help?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2020, 08:39:37 AM by John A »
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Offline 80CX100

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2020, 03:44:19 PM »
I had a totally stock Calvin 2009 that did around 15k miles before its tensioner shattered into little pieces, chain slipped off the oil pump and hey presto one seized motor.

nice.

That's concerning, your experience sounds horrible, but it's the first time I've ever read of that happening, especially at such low mileage. :cry:

Sounds to me like it might have been assembled on Friday afternoon in Mandello, and destined for failure from the get go  :evil:

When I did the timing chain on my CX100, it had 24k miles and the adjuster was doing nothing, not even close to touching the chain, let alone keep it tensioned. The chain was loose flopping around quite a bit and had worn part of 1 lug inside the case, but there was no indication it was loose enough to come off the sprocket.  :undecided:

Fwiw, with the new chain and tensioner, the clunking and clattering sound of the engine seemed to quiet a bit, run tighter with a little bit of a whinery sound, similar to what I imagined gears would sound like.

I did so much other work on the bike, it was hard to attribute the marked improvement in the running to solely the new chain/tensioner; it may be wishful thinking, but after seeing how loose the old one was, it made sense to me, that timing, valves, breathing etc would have to improve with a steadier/tighter baseline to operate from  :rolleyes:

I've never been inside the timing chest of the newer bikes, but I was under the impression that the tensioner design had improved a lot, I've never them a second thought in the new bikes, now I'm not so sure  :undecided:
 
Kelly
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In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2020, 03:51:10 PM »
There's always this tensioner if you don't like the "Valtek" (all I've bought said "Millepercento" on them):

https://hmb-guzzi.de/Timing-Chain-tensioner-CNC-made-HMB-design

Hopefully the spring is a bit stronger than the o.e. Guzzi one, which does about as much tensioning as the early fixed one.
Charlie

Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2020, 04:59:55 PM »
I’m going into the timing case today to commence the process of machining away the offending lump of casting that precludes the fitment of the Valtek.
I’ve got some plans...

Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2020, 05:05:24 PM »
That's concerning, your experience sounds horrible, but it's the first time I've ever read of that happening, especially at such low mileage. :cry:

Sounds to me like it might have been assembled on Friday afternoon in Mandello, and destined for failure from the get go  :evil:

When I did the timing chain on my CX100, it had 24k miles and the adjuster was doing nothing, not even close to touching the chain, let alone keep it tensioned. The chain was loose flopping around quite a bit and had worn part of 1 lug inside the case, but there was no indication it was loose enough to come off the sprocket.  :undecided:

Fwiw, with the new chain and tensioner, the clunking and clattering sound of the engine seemed to quiet a bit, run tighter with a little bit of a whinery sound, similar to what I imagined gears would sound like.

I did so much other work on the bike, it was hard to attribute the marked improvement in the running to solely the new chain/tensioner; it may be wishful thinking, but after seeing how loose the old one was, it made sense to me, that timing, valves, breathing etc would have to improve with a steadier/tighter baseline to operate from  :rolleyes:

I've never been inside the timing chest of the newer bikes, but I was under the impression that the tensioner design had improved a lot, I've never them a second thought in the new bikes, now I'm not so sure  :undecided:
 
Kelly
I think you meant a “whiney” sound...
Not “whinery” (sic), there may have been a “winery” involved somewhere in the story though.. :wink:

Offline Tom H

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2020, 05:34:15 PM »
The HMB reminds me of a stock EVT tensioner.





Tom
« Last Edit: March 07, 2020, 12:36:27 AM by Tom H »
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Offline 80CX100

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2020, 05:52:44 PM »
I think you meant a “whiney” sound...
Not “whinery” (sic), there may have been a “winery” involved somewhere in the story though.. :wink:

Well to make it grammatically correct I should have said "more whiney", but why bother using 2 words, when you can make up one that will suffice, "whinery" it is  :thumb:

 
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Offline Old Jock

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Re: Timing Chain Life Span?
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2020, 04:16:32 AM »
HMB state that what they offer is a late model type tensioner to replace the early style ones

https://hmb-guzzi.de/Timing-Chain-tensioner_1

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