Author Topic: 1978 850 T3 Restoration  (Read 4922 times)

Offline s1120

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2022, 05:05:56 AM »
Really you want to go over to the project sections in this forum, and start reading. You will learn a LOT about how how these things come apart, and tips and tricks that the manuals just don't tell you. These things are different... Not hard, or complex, but different. Take your time, and when you hit a rod block, ask here about it, and you will have 5-6 guys jump right in to help that have done it multiple times.. ANd ya... the manuals suck for these..  Ive started a binder that I print out stuff from on line that has helped me.
Paul B

Offline JJ

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2022, 08:39:30 AM »
What a beautiful pair of classic Moto Guzzi's!! :thumb: :bow: :cool: :boozing: 

Pack 'em up and RIDE to the next rally! :cool: :boozing: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:





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Online fotoguzzi

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2022, 09:21:20 AM »
What a beautiful pair of classic Moto Guzzi's!! :thumb: :bow: :cool: :boozing: 

Pack 'em up and RIDE to the next rally! :cool: :boozing: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

[/url]

not classic, Fuel injected 1100 EV motor, convert frame and drive train. Sold it after proving it could be done.
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

Offline Gusable

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2022, 10:41:26 AM »
Good luck with the project.  I like it.  Youíll have fun and really be hooked when all done. Iím on my second guzzi ( both 1100 Californiaís ). Iím in $$$ more than I planned but not worried about it. This one ainít going nowhere! Ticks all my boxes

1994 California 1100

Wildguzzi.com

Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2022, 10:41:26 AM »

Online bigbikerrick

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2022, 11:03:32 AM »
Good luck with the project.  I like it.  Youíll have fun and really be hooked when all done. Iím on my second guzzi ( both 1100 Californiaís ). Iím in $$$ more than I planned but not worried about it. This one ainít going nowhere! Ticks all my boxes


Thats a beauty, Gusable! I love that seat. It really sets it off nicely. :thumb:
Rick
"You meet the most interesting people on a Guzzi"

Offline Huzo

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2022, 11:03:56 AM »
Good luck with the project.  I like it.  Youíll have fun and really be hooked when all done. Iím on my second guzzi ( both 1100 Californiaís ). Iím in $$$ more than I planned but not worried about it. This one ainít going nowhere! Ticks all my boxes


I love that approach..

Offline Gusable

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2022, 11:08:25 AM »
Thank you. I loved my 98 Ev ( bought and sold it twice). Not making that mistake again with this one. And I perfer the carbs. So easy to work on like the T3.  I almost bought a red T3 FB model years ago.  Should have. 
1994 California 1100

Offline injundave

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2022, 05:16:04 PM »
I have a 1975 T3 which I picked up 16 years ago. It was tired then b ut still lasted another 5 years before it became too tired and I rebuilt it. I did everything: mechanicals, paint, chrome, electrics the lot. It had chrome bores which were just starting to go so I had the cylinders nicasil plated. I also replaced the original 40yr old Bosch alternator with a permanent magnet one with solid state regulator/rectifier and fitted Dyna electronic ignition. It owes me heaps in the dollar sense but runs like a dream and puts a smile on my face every time I ride it.

I built it with a Haynes manual and a bit of mechanical knowledge from other bikes. It was my first Guzzi rebuild. I wouldn't part with it for anything and have already told my daughter that she is getting it when I can no longer ride.

I also have a 2019 V85TT. The two bikes are chalk and cheese but are also uncannily similar. Neither is better, they are just 44 years apart and I love them both. My daughter has also claimed the TT as she prefers it however, if my shed was on fire I think I would rescue the T3 first.

Good luck on your journey. I look forward to keeping abreast of what you do and remember photos are necessary to show your progress.
1975 850 T3
1980 V50 (Now belongs to my daughter)
2019 V85TT

Offline texasmoto

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2022, 02:17:11 PM »
The journey of a full restoration begins with the removal of one bolt.

And backwards carburetors, it seems. I mean, I know that Italians aren't known to be the most fastidious people, but I'd like to believe they would have picked this up at the factory? Assuming of course that this carburetor IS backwards. The right side one has the fuel filter connection facing outwards, and that makes a lot more sense than this one. But on the carburetor the cylinder side is different to the airbox side. Perhaps someone replaced one many years ago? Seems odd to me.





Otherwise, it has begun. I ended up getting a lift, parts washer, shelving, and engine stand before the undertaking. I'm hoping to have the engine out by the end of the weekend. The manual isn't actually the worst thing in the world, but that's only because I have some experience with Japanese bikes, and those manuals document everything.

A pair of Gilardoni pistons and cylinders have been ordered and will be here in a few weeks. 
« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 02:20:37 PM by texasmoto »

Online Tom H

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2022, 02:37:25 PM »
The LH carb fuel inlet is on the inside as the pictures shows. The adjusters are outward as shown. All correct.

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
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1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline texasmoto

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2022, 03:05:22 PM »
That's funny. Appreciate the confirmation, thank you!

Offline texasmoto

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2022, 03:21:21 PM »
Well, the engines out!



It wasn't too bad. The most difficult part was removing the upper crash bar bolts.

I like how the manual makes no mention of what to do with the frame. I believe it says, "the main frame....can be wheeled away on the front wheel." And where does it go? Into a black hole!

I thought I could put the rear wheel back on for some kind of stability, but nope. So, it's just leaning against some shelves looking sorry for itself. What do y'all do with the frame once the engine is out? There is still work to be done on the frame. This might be the best time to put on a new harness. And of course degrease. Maybe even respray?

I am not entirely sure what to do with the engine, but I'll just keep following the manual. It says the gearbox separates next.

Offline n3303j

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2022, 03:37:35 PM »




I set a couple of hoists above my work area and pull the frame vertically off the engine that is resting in a copy of the factory engine removal cradle. Then I pull the cradle from under the suspended frame to work on the engine.

I always lash the handlebars to keep the front end from swinging. Before the hoists, lashing the bars allowed me to move the frame around like a wheelbarrow. I'd park it on the front wheel and blocks under the swingarm pivot area.

The problem with the wheelbarrow method is that it is much harder to line up stuff at reassembly with the wheelbarrow. Especially if you work alone.

With the two hoists (Come Along) cable doubled it is possible to get very minor moves with each ratchet. Positioning the frame exactly where you want it and having it stay as you add fasteners is easy.
'98 MG V11 EV
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Offline texasmoto

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2022, 07:04:10 PM »
Thank you for this idea! Fantastic! Instead of driving all the way to get hoists, I just used some heavy duty ratcheting straps. The frame is mounted to three hooks so it's well under any weight limits.

My plan when getting the engine back in is to use the HF rolling motorcycle lift that I already have. I'll raise the frame really high, roll the engine underneath, and then start lowering the frame. 

Offline texasmoto

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2022, 07:15:25 PM »
I've spent the past few days removing and disassembling the transmission. The biggest blocker was waiting for special tools to arrive.

Removing the two peg nuts was a breeze with an impact wrench, 27mm deep socket and the specialist tool from MGCycle (https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=657). It was actually disappointingly easy, but I can imagine how frustrating it must be without those tools!  :grin:

Some questions for y'all
  • There was some surface rust on the selector drum rod. I sanded it off. I don't think this will harm things, but I may be mistaken. Should I order a replacement or leave as is?
  • Something went wrong in the end case. I haven't looked at each gear in detail but there is nothing immediately obviously wrong. See the photos for the damage. Is this something to replace?

After addressing the above, my next steps are to:

Replace all seals.
Send case off to be vapor blasted ($90 AN HOUR??? I'm in the wrong business!)
Replace all bearings.
Rebuild








Online czakky82

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2022, 07:27:59 PM »
Iíve had two similar era trans apart. Both had similar casting faults. My vote? Carry on.
Good question.

Offline Gusable

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2022, 07:51:00 PM »
I like the forward progress going on there! Donít ask me about my pontiac ventura garage anchor project LOL my pals are going to start giving me a HARD time soon.. lol whenís that car gonna be running!!  Looks like your having fun too. Canít wait to see it all done
1994 California 1100

Offline n3303j

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2022, 08:05:46 PM »
I've spent the past few days removing and disassembling the transmission. The biggest blocker was waiting for special tools to arrive.

Removing the two peg nuts was a breeze with an impact wrench, 27mm deep socket and the specialist tool from MGCycle (https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=657). It was actually disappointingly easy, but I can imagine how frustrating it must be without those tools!  :grin:
Getting the nuts off is the easy part. Reinstalling them to the specified torque is the challenge.
'98 MG V11 EV
'96 URAL SPORTSMAN
'77 MG 850T3 FB

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2022, 08:43:38 PM »
Some questions for y'all
  • There was some surface rust on the selector drum rod. I sanded it off. I don't think this will harm things, but I may be mistaken. Should I order a replacement or leave as is?
  • Something went wrong in the end case. I haven't looked at each gear in detail but there is nothing immediately obviously wrong. See the photos for the damage. Is this something to replace?

The rod the drum rotates on? If so, that'll be fine.

The end case usual looks a bit rough in that area, but that's much worse than normal. Could be the shift return spring broke previously and then got trapped there between the case and a gear. If you need one, I have a few extras.
Charlie

Offline Howard R

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #49 on: October 15, 2022, 12:18:48 PM »
Looking up close at your 3rd pic from top, it almost looks lke there is a crack propagating down from the left bearing race, and almost ready to break all the way into the right bearing race.
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Offline n3303j

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2022, 12:31:02 PM »
https://www.ebay.com/itm/403767994159?
$130 (or BRO) and your concerns vanish in a cloud of receipts.
NOT MY PART!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2022, 12:33:29 PM by n3303j »
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Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2022, 12:44:39 PM »
https://www.ebay.com/itm/403767994159?
$130 (or BRO) and your concerns vanish in a cloud of receipts.
NOT MY PART!

I will GIVE him one for FREE (just pay shipping).
Charlie

Offline texasmoto

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2022, 04:47:19 PM »
The rod the drum rotates on? If so, that'll be fine.

The end case usual looks a bit rough in that area, but that's much worse than normal. Could be the shift return spring broke previously and then got trapped there between the case and a gear. If you need one, I have a few extras.

I'll take you up on that offer, will message you privately.

And it is exactly because of offers like this that I went forward with the restoration. What a community!

Offline texasmoto

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2022, 04:48:40 PM »
Looking up close at your 3rd pic from top, it almost looks lke there is a crack propagating down from the left bearing race, and almost ready to break all the way into the right bearing race.

Yeah I saw that, too. It is much smaller in person - it is literally a hairline. But it is of concern. Seems like riding on borrowed time. I'm this far in, may as well just replace the cover.

Offline texasmoto

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2022, 05:51:11 PM »
I am having a hell of a time with reassembling the transmission and it's starting to get frustrating. And being frustrated is when bad things happen. So, I'm pausing to try and figure out what is going on.

I haven't lost any parts, everything is as it should be. The selector drum had a lot of slop in it so I have shimmed it accordingly. It spins freely with no drag or slop now. That was really the only change I made. Besides new bearings and seals, everything is as it was.

But when I reassemble all the shafts, when trying to shift gears the whole assembly locks up. If I jiggle everything around and apply what seems to be significant pressure to the selector drum, then it'll click and shift, but it doesnt move up or down reliably. And then it'll lock again at another point.

I have tried some configurations of different thickness shims on the selector drum. I reassembled it completely, so knew that it was in neutral, and it was very difficult to shift to what I assumed to be first gear. So I adjusted the shims on the selector drum to move it forward, but that still didn't really stop this whole binding thing.

The last thing I've tried is removing the shim at the front of the main shaft. That shaft had a huge shim on it, and it looked like it was sitting too high when I saw how the gears were meshing. I removed it, and the gears of the main shaft and layshaft now seem to be at equal heights, but the whole mechanism binds and locks when trying to shift gears. If this shim is too thick it can cause binding, but even with the shim totally off it still binds. I suspect that this may be the culprit and I will have to find a smaller shim. 
« Last Edit: November 07, 2022, 06:23:20 PM by texasmoto »

Offline n3303j

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2022, 06:41:00 PM »



If you stack it all up on the back cover it gives you a good view of how all the internals are interacting. You can run it through all the gears in this position. When satisfied drop on the main case. Then install the detent in the case.

I assume you are trying trial shifts with a lever on the shift shaft at least as long as your shift pedal. It does take a bit of torque to overcome the detent, slide the forks and the gears. Also, you have to spin the shaft to allow clutch dogs to line up with gear slots.
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Offline 1down5up

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2022, 11:26:56 PM »
Mke sure you have tightened up the nut on the input and output shaft.

This draws the respective shafted into there proper position, otherwise the shift dogs don't align on the drum properly

Offline texasmoto

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2022, 08:02:51 AM »
Mke sure you have tightened up the nut on the input and output shaft.

This draws the respective shafted into there proper position, otherwise the shift dogs don't align on the drum properly

I did this the first time but not every time. Will try again today.

Offline texasmoto

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2022, 03:51:53 PM »
Thank you for all your suggestions folks.

@n3303j what a clever way of looking at things.

It turns out that it was binding for either (or both) of the following reasons:

Too much shim on the selector drum
Not securing input and output shaft fully when testing.

It's shifting better now, but I'm not sure if I'm finding neutral: Through all the gear changes when I rotate the input shaft the output shaft rotates, too. I would imagine that if in neutral, the output shaft doesn't spin?

I might be wrong there but I want to confirm before finalizing and moving forward.

Offline n3303j

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Re: 1978 850 T3 Restoration
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2022, 05:00:28 PM »
There's enough friction that the output shaft will rotate in neutral when rhe input shaft is spun unless you restrain the output shaft.
All the gears are always spinning on the output shaft and are causing it to rotate whenever the input shaft is rotating.
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