Author Topic: 1977 Le Mans running and on the road  (Read 84325 times)

Offline Rick4003

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #60 on: June 26, 2017, 10:02:21 AM »
Sounds resonable, I will try and do the same to mine when I get home then. I have a leaking drain plug, so I will do the change of seals, bearings and helicoil the drain and level plugs.

Thanks for sharing your rebuilds, they give a whole lot of excelent infomation, tips and tricks

-Ulrik

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Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
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canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #61 on: June 26, 2017, 10:34:29 PM »
Transmission strip, clean up and inventory. This transmission is out of a 850T, I don't think it had many miles on it, the original Le Mans transmission went into Luca's 750S3. The S3 gears and dogs where just too worn out and I had to get a good transmission into the S3.



I heated the case and cover to 350 degrees in my shop oven to sweat the bearings out, the bearings are probably 'good enough' but I ordered a complete set from HMB Moto Guzzi so I am going to go ahead and replace all the case bearings



The shift forks show very little sign of wear, that's a first!





This gear dog and matching gear has some noticeable wear, I need to find a better set in my transmission spares box





Bearings, gaskets, O rings, seals, a new deep clutch spline drive and replacing the return spring should take care of parts.



Offline swooshdave

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2017, 01:05:11 AM »
What's the difference between a T box and a LeMans?


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canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2017, 09:43:59 AM »
What's the difference between a T box and a LeMans?


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Nothing

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2017, 09:43:59 AM »

canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2017, 10:37:47 PM »
Picked up my wheels today from the local bike shop, they could not get the front tire to sit properly, claimed the powder coat was too thick inside the rim???

So I fit an axle into a vice and quickly spun the wheel why I ran a 120 grit disc across the flange



And a drum on the flat



And a micro band sander



Damn powder coat!

Back to the transmission, heated the case and cover up to 350F and then dropped the cold bearings into place





Thanks to Joe W for sending me a tutorial on setting the shift drum and forks,

I swapped a better 5th gear and dog



New bearing pack



And O rings



mostly back together,



done for the night


Online Groover

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #65 on: June 29, 2017, 08:00:20 AM »
I've have come across posts mentioning the powdercoat thickness causing problems like this, but other say it's not a problem. I would blame the seal on the new TL tires as being too "good". When I had my Pirelli Sport Demons mounted on my G5 (same rims as yours), the installer almost gave up on the front as well; It finally then popped into place when the PSI went over 100psi - mine were not powder coated, and I didn't even paint the inside either. Just factory finish.

Nice work on this, I'm enjoying this thread a lot. Is the tutorial Joe W sent you a public document published somewhere? I've found a few other out there, some by Pete Roper and others from this board.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 08:01:10 AM by Groover »
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Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #66 on: June 29, 2017, 08:41:18 AM »
I've have come across posts mentioning the powdercoat thickness causing problems like this, but other say it's not a problem. I would blame the seal on the new TL tires as being too "good". When I had my Pirelli Sport Demons mounted on my G5 (same rims as yours), the installer almost gave up on the front as well; It finally then popped into place when the PSI went over 100psi - mine were not powder coated, and I didn't even paint the inside either. Just factory finish.

I've experienced this issue when mounting almost any tire to the original Guzzi cast lead/butter rims. The only thing that seems to help is Windex - yes, the stuff used to clean glass. Other brands don't seem to work as well even.
Charlie
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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #67 on: June 29, 2017, 09:39:19 AM »
 Thanks for the info on mounting tires. I will drop the rim / tire off again and hope the shop is successful today

canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #68 on: June 29, 2017, 12:38:42 PM »
Is the tutorial Joe W sent you a public document published somewhere? I've found a few other out there, some by Pete Roper and others from this board.

Sorry but I can't find the email Joe sent me. Similar to what Pete Roper explains but Joe has cut open a transmission case to allow for a full view of the drum and forks in place. Installing the detent plunger along with the gear clusters, shift forks and shift drum made checking play and engagement so much easier. It never dawned on me in the past to fit the detent to assemble the forks and fork shaft was going to make the assembly easier. Also Joe has found that in most cases the drum shims are needed on the back side of the drum to center the shift forks.

I don't try to tighten up the shift drum too much from what it was originally shimmed at, this may be going against common wisdom but I have a suspicion that the Guzzi engineers may have intentionally designed in the slack in the shift drum to reduce wear on the shift forks and the dogs.

On this particular transmission the shift forks where in such nice shape that I just put it back together with adding one very thin shim to the back (rear cover side) of the drum. There is still some end play in the drum even with a paper gasket between the cover and case with the cover torqued down.

I found that using a very long set of bent end needle nose pliers worked great for pulling up the 1st gear shift fork to get it to pop into the shift drum, the 'bent' end of the needle nose fits clear of the case / forks and then could be twisted 90 degrees to pull up on the closed needle nose to lift the shift fork. The typical hook puller has never worked well for me in the past to lift the shift fork.

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #69 on: June 29, 2017, 12:57:57 PM »
Good info. I'm far from digging into the transmission, and at this point I'm just gathering info and working on building up my confidence level to jump in at some point, so build threads like this one, are greatly appreciated!
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canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #70 on: June 29, 2017, 10:13:41 PM »
Finished up the transmission this evening, new gasket for the neutral switch



Checking contact to the shift drum bulb



Replaced the shift return spring



Fitted the cam bolt that centers the return spring pawl



Rotating the cam bolt moves the return pawl mechanism up or down to meet the center of the shift drum



I 'glue' the gasket into position with wheel bearing grease and use long bolts to align the cover to the case and not fold the gasket while the cover drops down



Then the shim that goes under the speedo drive gear



And then the gear



then the ball bearing that keeps the gear in place





the big nut torqued down



lubed the seal and then set it onto place



peen the nut



new deep spline drive



lock washer and nut



torque it down



O rings on the clutch rod



lube and install the active end of the push rod



and fit the clutch arm



done







Offline Rick4003

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #71 on: June 30, 2017, 12:01:46 AM »
 :popcorn: Top notch :)

How do you adjust the cam bolt to center the return yawl on the shiftdrum? I guess it will be done after the end cover has been mounted on the gearbox, if so, how do you know that it is adjusted correctly?

-Ulrik
Moto Guzzi 850 T5 (850 sport) - 1985
Moto Guzzi Ambassador - 1967
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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #72 on: June 30, 2017, 07:30:29 AM »
Good stuff, nice job and thanks for taking the time to take the photos of the steps and parts!
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canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #73 on: June 30, 2017, 09:21:59 AM »
:popcorn: Top notch :)

How do you adjust the cam bolt to center the return yawl on the shiftdrum? I guess it will be done after the end cover has been mounted on the gearbox, if so, how do you know that it is adjusted correctly?

-Ulrik

The cam faced adjustment bolt has a range of about 3/4 a turn, I wind the bolt in hand tight, unwinding the bolt moves the shift pawl up and down, it needs to fall into alignment with the center of the shift drum, the hole in the transmission case cover for the shift drum is the center point. You don't need to be 100% accurate just get it as close as you can. if you keep unwinding the cam faced bolt it just  keeps moving the pawl the same amount, there is no additional adjustment possible beyond the original 3/4 turn.

Once the transmission and shift pedal is installed you can fine tune the adjustment bolt a wee bit to move the pedal / pawl to the centre between shift up / shift down.

canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #74 on: June 30, 2017, 10:32:46 PM »
Replaced the block to transmission studs with replated ones, the old studs will get replated for the next build



Locktight to keep them in place



Painted the underside of the block with engineers blue and then flat sanded the base of the block with a 400 grit sheet of sanding paper glues to a 18" square granite tile





Fitted the front bearing with new lock tabs and locktight





Refitted the sludge trap cap



New rear bearing, replaced the oil feed tube



I heat the case to 200 degrees in the oven, drop on a new flange gasket and place a couple studs into the case bolt holes to guide the bearing in, the hot case expands and the bearing just falls into place





I used schnor washer to fix the rear bearing flange to the block and dab of locktight



Thread sealant on the bottom two bolts that penetrate the case



JB weld mixed to fill the cam plug



New gasket on the big breather tube



New rear main seal lubed and ready to press in



The press tool works great setting the seal to just the right depth and square





Heads came back from the machine shop today with new guides, springs and valves




Offline swooshdave

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #75 on: June 30, 2017, 10:47:02 PM »
What is the JB Weld for?


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canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #76 on: June 30, 2017, 11:30:27 PM »
What is the JB Weld for?


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Sealing over the rear cam plug is a long standing recommended mod for all big blocks. I have never had one leak but its cheap insurance when you have the engine out of the bike. There is a lip in the block casting that the cap pops into, a smear of JB Weld in the recess lapping over the cap should keep it sealed for life.

Offline balvenie

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2017, 04:13:28 AM »
Very good :thumb: and now I know what I need to install a new rear main seal in my bike.
Oz
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canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2017, 02:25:29 PM »
Very good :thumb: and now I know what I need to install a new rear main seal in my bike.

The rear main seal installation tool is worth buying if you need to replace a rear main seal, the seal is very hard to get in square without the tool. Nothing fancy to it and one could make a seal driver with a proper bolt that matches the crank center thread and big thick plate or washer.

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2017, 04:05:40 PM »
The rear main seal installation tool is worth buying if you need to replace a rear main seal, the seal is very hard to get in square without the tool. Nothing fancy to it and one could make a seal driver with a proper bolt that matches the crank center thread and big thick plate or washer.

If I have the rear main bearing/flange out, I always install the seal into it before installing the bearing/flange into the engine case. Just easier for me.
Charlie
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canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2017, 10:01:18 PM »
If I have the rear main bearing/flange out, I always install the seal into it before installing the bearing/flange into the engine case. Just easier for me.

Good call, that would be easier!

canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2017, 10:07:01 PM »
I got an hour in today and fitted new big end shells and con rod cap nuts, coated the shells faces with assembly lube



Torqued in t 24 foot lbs.



The piston pins where a real tight fit, even with the pistons heated to 350 degrees it took the pin press to get them in





Lubed the cam



The flange was in spec co I just milled three oil feed reliefs like the new flanged have



New oil pump, they are pretty reasonably priced these days




Offline balvenie

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #82 on: July 01, 2017, 10:17:57 PM »
This is great :grin: :thumb:
Oz
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canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2017, 10:37:11 AM »
Thanks Balvenie, I hope it is of some use to anyone interested in rebuilding a Tonti frame bike and in particular a Le Mans MK I.

I make no claims to being a mechanic or an expert, if anyone spots something I have done incorrectly, and that happens!, please post the error or send me a pm.


Cheers

Jim

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2017, 12:41:05 PM »
This thread is a joy to watch...so envious of your skills!  :bow:

Offline toolittletime

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2017, 06:09:51 PM »
Very nice job Jim....love to watch these threads, especially with all of the detailed pictures you post.
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Offline Rick4003

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2017, 07:51:26 PM »
Very nice job Jim....love to watch these threads, especially with all of the detailed pictures you post.
Tim

 :1: It is like a very detailed instruction in how to build a Moto Guzzi. It is great! :grin:

-Ulrik
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canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #87 on: July 02, 2017, 10:15:12 PM »
Speaking of errors, here's one, the cam chain tensioner should be installed with the front bearing flange, so I pulled two bolts and the lock tab and fitted the tensioner. I then remove the wear bar and spring until the chain is installed



New endless chain and the gears cleaned up



The marks on the cam and crank sprocket need to align and the chain and all three gears need to be installed as a unit. 1st I fit the gears without the chain and line up the marks then carefully remove the gears and then fit the chain to them and press all three gears onto their shafts at once



Then the crank gear lock tab can be fitted



And the lock nut, round face to the engine, flat side out



Tightening both the cam and crank nuts at once work against one another and can be torqued tight, real tight!



One of the crank lock nut slots will have a star tab that can be bent over to lock the nut



The oil pump nut and lock washer with a dab of locktight



cam followers cleaned up



Lubed



Installed and then the cylinder base gasket and the 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock O rings can be installed



Make sure the gasket does not block the oil passage hole



Oil the piston grooves and fit the new rings



I lightly honed the cylinders with WD-40 and a fine hone



Ring compressor



Carefully tap the cylinder down over the ring compressor



Then remove the ring compressor and finish pushing the cylinder down



Fit the head gasket and make sure the oil hole is lined up



Drop the head on and fit four O rings over the block studs



Then fit the rocker frame and the wave washers



Special nut for the 6 o'clock stud



Then the other cylinder, now it looks like a Ducati!



Viton O rings on the 6 o'clock head plugs



head torqued down



Oil pressure sensor



Head oil feed pipe



The rocker parts





Distributor lock ring



crankcase oil breather one way valve



Made a pair of gaskets for the intake manifolds



The 6mm manifold bolts unique to the Le Mans





New rubber carb boots





Almost a motor now



Offline balvenie

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #88 on: July 02, 2017, 10:29:42 PM »
Looks beautiful Jim. I can just imagine myself  having a severe case of the crazies, trying to install the three cogs fitted to their chain :grin:
Oz
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canuck750

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Re: 1977 Le Mans Rebuild getting started
« Reply #89 on: July 02, 2017, 10:44:42 PM »
Looks beautiful Jim. I can just imagine myself  having a severe case of the crazies, trying to install the three cogs fitted to their chain :grin:

I should have explained how to do it a little better, to begin I install only the cam and crank sprockets and line up the timing marks.

Next fit the chain around the two gears it will fit easily without the oil pump gear.

Now pull the chain and two gears off the shafts but not off the front of the engine and drop the oil pump gear into the bottom loop of the chain

Next push the whole thing back as a unit onto the shaft, wiggle it around until the cam pin and crank slot align and your home free,

Spin the crank and makes sure the cam and crank timing marks align

sounds a lot harder than it is

Cheers

Jim

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