Author Topic: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!  (Read 1657 times)

Offline Motormike

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Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« on: April 09, 2021, 02:04:38 PM »
I'm completely flummoxed (and worn out).  For the last 4-5 hours I've been trying to install a new front tire on my Griso.  Got the old Metzeler Z8 off the rim.  (No easy task...I hate NoMar) Struggled to get the new tire on the rim, but finally did it without too much blood (did I mention how much I hate NoMar?). Now, for the life of me, I can't get the bead to seat on the rim.  I've tried every trick I know. I've soaped it, bounced it, left it in the sun for an hour, inflated it, deflated it, bounced it some more, re-inflated it.  Around 60 to 70 psi, I can see the bubbles start to form around the part of the bead that is seated, so I'm only able to get about 60 psi in the tire, no matter how hi I set the compressor.  I've never struggled with a tire like I have this one.  Of course, the old Metzeler said "Made in Germany" on the sidewall, where as the new one says, "Made in China," so who knows if it's even round?  Any ideas?  How much pressure should it take to seat a motorcycle tire?

Offline egschade

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2021, 02:20:03 PM »
I've never needed more than 40-50 PSI to seat a tire. As I recall my Pirelli Scorpion tire installation on my Griso went very smoothly. Perhaps you gouged the rim enough to cause a problem. Check the shoulders and get a little more lube on before trying to seat the tire again.

That said, I've seen others reporting bad tires so you may well have a defect on your hands.
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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2021, 02:22:36 PM »
The bead on the Pirelli MT60s were a bit of a bear for me to seat on my V7. Took the bike to a mom and pop tire shop in western NH. They had a little bit of trouble themselves but finally got it on using Tire Snot, available on Amazon. I had to do the procedure myself after re-sealing the spoked for tubeless, and used the product. I was able to get the tires on with the help of that product. Itís like the consistency of wet corn starch.
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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2021, 02:36:06 PM »
I have installed 100's of tires on every type wheel and/or style motorcycle and if you are fighting to mount/dismount the tire you are doing it wrong. Its not NoMar or any other tire machines fault, its your technique.

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2021, 02:36:06 PM »

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2021, 03:11:23 PM »
I have installed 100's of tires on every type wheel and/or style motorcycle and if you are fighting to mount/dismount the tire you are doing it wrong. Its not NoMar or any other tire machines fault, its your technique.

Significantly disagree with all due respect.

Iíve done other tires myself. I couldnít do these MT60s, and the mom & pop shop had trouble as well until they pulled out the snot.

Some tires are tougher than others.
Proper lube helps.
Proper tools help.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 03:12:04 PM by Dirk_S »
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Offline cookiemech

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2021, 03:16:11 PM »
I've installed maybe 180 motorcycle tires (and plenty of car tires) and yeah, sometimes the SOBs just don't want to seat. I use Ru-Glyde liberally and when they won't seat at 50 to 60 psig, I use a clamp-on tire chuck (valve stem removed) and control the air supply from the other side of the garage, since I don't wish to be hit by an exploding tire or rim. I've had Metzelers (made in Brazil) take 90 psig to seat. There was nothing wrong with the rim or the type or amount of lube I used. And once seated, the tires always worked fine on the motorcycles.

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2021, 03:26:07 PM »
Significantly disagree with all due respect.

Iíve done other tires myself. I couldnít do these MT60s, and the mom & pop shop had trouble as well until they pulled out the snot.

Some tires are tougher than others.
Proper lube helps.
Proper tools help.

Agreed some tired are more difficult than others. A 180 series sport bike tire is certainly easier than a heavy walled Goldwing tire but itís still all technique. If you are fighting the install you are doing it wrong.

Online Ncdan

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2021, 03:57:04 PM »
Put a small mark on the rim where itís not seating. Let all the air out and break the tire from the rim. Turn the tire 180 degrees then pump her back up. If it does not seat then, get back for step 2.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:48:53 PM by Ncdan »

Offline Solorider73

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2021, 04:31:34 PM »
I usually only change dual sport tires these days, just to keep in practice.  A small shop a few miles from my house will change and balance the tires if you bring in the wheels for $25 per wheel.  It's just not worth the trouble, sweat and cursing for me.  Some of the ADV tires have really stiff side walls that can be a real bear to change even with professional shop equipment.

I've never done it, but I have read where people will ride around the block for hard to seat beads.  I assume this would be a slow speed ride.
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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2021, 04:48:56 PM »
Recently I had great difficulty seating the bead on a Shinko tire for my California II. I finally took it to a local shop. The rim was smooth with no nicks. Plenty of tire lube used. Very high air pressure was tried. Still the bead would not fully seat. Eventually after several attempts, the bead finally seated. The shop mechanic had no idea why this new tire was so difficult to seat.   :undecided:




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« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 04:50:39 PM by Peter949 »
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Offline Motormike

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2021, 04:56:27 PM »
I have installed 100's of tires on every type wheel and/or style motorcycle and if you are fighting to mount/dismount the tire you are doing it wrong. Its not NoMar or any other tire machines fault, its your technique.
Please, ObiWan, explain what technique I need to use to inflate a tire?

Offline Motormike

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2021, 04:59:56 PM »
I took the rim with the tire to the local Auto tire shop.  They said "we won't touch it."  I tried to explain all I wanted them to do was inflate it enough to seat the bead.  They simply said "we won't do motorcycle tires." And that was that.  Anybody want to buy a rare one-wheeled Griso?  If you're really good at wheelies, you can ride it home!

Offline Motormike

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2021, 05:04:42 PM »
I suspect (although without X-ray vision, I can't be certain) that the bead in question is stuck on the spoke nipples. (no rim strip)  I used lot's of lube in the drop-center, but if the bead is caught, about all I can do is take it off and try again. Or drive the 70 mile round trip to the nearest motorcycle shop.  Ugh. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:06:09 PM by Motormike »

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2021, 05:05:32 PM »
First, are you dead certain you are mounting the correct size tire to the wheel.   If not, obviously stop. 

DO NOT attempt to seat the bead using excess pressure!!!  I would not go over 60 psi.  Death or serious personal injury can occur if you over-inflate.  The injury photos are gruesome.

Get the tire as hot as you can.  Leave it out in the direct sun for hours.  Place above your hot car engine with a blanket on it.  The hotter and more flexible the rubber, the easier it will seat. 

Use plenty of lube all around the bead seat on both sides of the wheel and tire.  You may think you have lubed this area, but you may not have lube on the ramp out of the drop center.   Something is sticking and hanging up. 
 
Remove the valve stem and inflate with an air compressor gun.  You want a fast intake of air as opposed to a slow inflation through a restrictive valve stem.     

I have sometimes wrapped a cinch ratchet around the circumference of the tire to push it down, but be careful not to over-inflate.   

I like the idea of marking the non-seating portion of the tire and rotating it to a different area. 

Try patience.  Lube it, inflate to 60 psi, and leave out in the sun.  Maybe it will pop in place after a few hours.   

I know they make a Cheetah bead seating tool, but Iíve never used one. 

 
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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2021, 05:12:00 PM »
I've never needed more than 40-50 PSI to seat a tire. As I recall my Pirelli Scorpion tire installation on my Griso went very smoothly. Perhaps you gouged the rim enough to cause a problem. Check the shoulders and get a little more lube on before trying to seat the tire again.

That said, I've seen others reporting bad tires so you may well have a defect on your hands.


If you don't have a regular commercial "Bead Belt"..but
If you do have a decent ratchet strap tie down..wrap it around the outer circumference  of the tire and cinch it down very tight...that along with with plenty of soapy water and a good compressor it usually works for me when I'm having bead trouble

Offline oldbike54

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2021, 05:18:20 PM »
 I have a box that has a piece of glass on one side . Placing the tyre in the box and setting it in the Sun for the solar gain results in a nicely warmed tyre. then use the zip tie method to mount the tyre over the rim . Warmed up and stretched slightly , the tyre almost seats its self .

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« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:20:08 PM by oldbike54 »
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Offline kirby1923

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2021, 05:51:17 PM »
My .02,

I've been changing tires on motorbikes for  'bout 50 years or so and have done at least 50 sets on my current beemer in the last 16 years.

Good idea to heat them up in the sun ,like a parked in the sun car w/windows rolled up so they are soft. Also important to clean very well the inside of the rim where the tire is seated and lube. I use the tire lube that NAPA sells and it works good. Coat the tire and the rim and remove the valve CORE, (important) and get a clip-on air chuck (clips on the threaded part to the stem).

I set my little compressor to 110 psi and just clip it on the tire and move away 'bout ten feet until I hear the "pop"  usually a couple then un clip the chuck and let the tire deflate.

Check that the bead is even all around the rim on both sides, and reinstall core in the stem and inflate to what ever you run  for pressure.

Usually the tire bead will seat somewhere under 80 psi. With a small compressor it is highly unlikely your going to either cause the tire to "blow up " or jump the rim using a normal small compressor set to around 100 psi.

If your uncomfortable w/this procedure have some one else do it.

Of course in a pinch you can be bold and use the "starter fluid" method... spray a bit in the tire and use a BIC lighter to ignite  and pop its done. Have done this but only as last ditch effort. A fav for seating big tractor tires!! (done many!)

FWIW

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« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:56:19 PM by kirby1923 »
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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2021, 06:04:29 PM »
skip the tire lube. spray the entire rim and the tire with Pam. Yes that Pam. Never had an issue with it. Ruglide, not so much.
Then go fry some eggs!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 06:05:51 PM by Vagrant »
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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2021, 06:43:46 PM »
Please, ObiWan, explain what technique I need to use to inflate a tire?

Its certainly not rocket science or any trade secrets. Lube in the right places keeping the opposite side of the tire you are working in the drop center and a bit of mechanical advantage to lever the tire on/off the bead of the wheel.

Lube contrary to popular belief does not mean as much as you can mop/glob onto the wheel and tire. If used in the proper places it only takes a very small amount of lube, again proper technique. I bet I average a tsp per less of lube per tire. I use RuGlide in a spray bottle and mist it onto the wheel and/or tire in the right places. Give the right "slip" in the right places.

As stated before some tire do take more effort but if you are forcing or applying lube in places other than needed its not proper technique. Tons of video's on YT that shoe both proper and even more videos that show improper technique.

I will say that I do have issues setting the front  bead with Michelin PP 4's on my buddies Burgman. I only have a 5 gallon compressor and those tires are so soft the bead lays in the drop center and I do not have the "inrush" air capacity to push the tire bead against the wheel bead to start it to seal.

Tire on/off the bike is no issue nor is getting the bead to set once it will start to seat and allow pressure to build. I'm also not afraid to use pressure to set tire beads. Sometimes it takes 20lbs other time significantly more. I have a foot pedal and clip on air chuck. Stand back put the pedal to the metal and the ting to the floor and let pressure do its thang!




Offline Motormike

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2021, 06:45:39 PM »
I've changed a couple of dozen tires, and this is the first one that's whipped me totally.  I've tried the ratchet strap method, no luck.  I've removed and reinstalled the tire twice now, rotated it every which way, it still won't seat.  It's plenty lubed now...so greasy inside and out I can barely hang on to it without it slipping out of my hands like a greased pig! Probably spin on the rim if I ever get it mounted! Grab and handful of front brake and the rim will stop, but the tire will keep turning!  What kind of compressor hoses are some of you using that "clip" on?  I have to sit there and hold the chuck on the valve stem.  I haven't seen a clip-on style of air-chuck since my bicycle pump days when I was a kid.   If I had a way to clip the hose to the valve stem, I'd just set er to 100 psi and get back.  Hell, a tire exploding would be an improvement over where I am with it now.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 06:50:26 PM by Motormike »

Online john fish

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2021, 07:03:31 PM »
Here's one but I got mine at the auto parts store.

https://www.harborfreight.com/tire-chuck-with-lock-on-lever-62626.html?cid=paid_google|||62626&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=&utm_content=&gclid=CjwKCAjw9r-DBhBxEiwA9qYUparuPcqkAw4nsT3YQ9vVP_ZPbxnEGRriAw3DC6sVNh9xoq_nW0RL7RoC99EQAvD_BwE

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Offline 80CX100

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2021, 07:08:05 PM »
       Btdt, I had a ft tire on my DR650 on and off at least 3 times before I finally got it to seat, high pressure, hot sun and bouncing was the cure for that b*tch.

       Your air chuck that you have to hold on and force air through the valve into the valve stem isn't helping you.

       It's the big inrush of tank pressure that will seat it,,,, remove the valve stem innards,,, get a clip on chuck, cover everything with a blanket, and then open up the regulator from the tank to the hose, or a foot valve would be sweet (it's on my list but not in the shop yet, lol).

       It sounds like you may want to take the tire off and clean up all that lube first or you will have problems later.

       I've seen some of the racer boys use tire warmers, or as has been suggested make up little hot boxes, tarps over chairs etc with work lamps inside, front of the woodstove, etc  I've got a set of tires sitting in my hot car for the last couple of days, waiting for me to get the stars aligned for my own tire battles, lol.

       Put the tools down, take a break and come back at it with a fresh set of eyes, always helps me when I'm stuck and frustrated.

       It'll come, good luck and stay safe
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 07:11:23 PM by 80CX100 »
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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2021, 07:11:05 PM »
Clip on like John shows avalaible at any home center, auto parts mega mart or HF and a $18 foot pedal from Amazon is a great combination. Hands off while the inflation is underway. The combo lets two hands free to work the tire while inflating.








Online Perazzimx14

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2021, 07:14:49 PM »
       Btdt, I had a ft tire on my DR650 on and off at least 3 times before I finally got it to seat, high pressure, hot sun and bouncing was the cure for that b*tch.

       Your air chuck that you have to hold on and force air through the valve into the valve stem isn't helping you.

       It's the big inrush of tank pressure that will seat it,,,, remove the valve stem innards,,, get a clip on chuck, cover everything with a blanket, and then open up the regulator from the tank to the hose, or a foot valve would be sweet (it's on my list but not in the shop yet, lol).

       It sounds like you may want to take the tire off and clean up all that lube first or you will have problems later.

       I've seen some of the racer boys use tire warmers, or as has been suggested make up little hot boxes, tarps over chairs etc with work lamps inside, front of the woodstove, etc  I've got a set of tires sitting in my hot car for the last couple of days, waiting for me to get the stars aligned for my own tire battles, lol.

       Put the tools down, take a break and come back at it with a fresh set of eyes, always helps me when I'm stuck and frustrated.

       It'll come, good luck and stay safe

The big inrush does little to set the beat. It does push the tire beard outwards towards the wheel bead to make contact and start to hold air and build pressure. The pressure after the high volume inrush is what pushed the tire bead over the wheel beat AKA sets the bead.

Offline Motormike

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2021, 07:17:05 PM »
I've come across several posts on sites like Bay Area Riders (BARF) that complain the made-in-china Metzelers are smaller by 1-2 mm than the old ones make in Germany.  All these posts are from 2014: 

"One odd thing I have noticed with the China production tires is that they seem almost 1mm smaller compared to prior Euro production tires. It takes a little extra pressure to get them seated on the rim."
"Seems like the 17" tires are actually 16.98" in size"
"And yes they were a bigger bitch than I remember to shoe-on with tire irons than the Spanish made ones."
"So far the only issues to report are the mutha effin tight fit issues during the install process.
Haven't heard of any operational issues."

I can tell you one thing...mounted or not, it will be a cold day in hell before I buy another Chinese Pirelli/Metzeler tire!

Offline Tkelly

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2021, 07:21:28 PM »
These issues lead me to buy my tires from my dealer and he puts them on.

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2021, 07:22:28 PM »
I've come across several posts on sites like Bay Area Riders (BARF) that complain the made-in-china Metzelers are smaller by 1-2 mm than the old ones make in Germany.  All these posts are from 2014: 

"One odd thing I have noticed with the China production tires is that they seem almost 1mm smaller compared to prior Euro production tires. It takes a little extra pressure to get them seated on the rim."
"Seems like the 17" tires are actually 16.98" in size"
"And yes they were a bigger bitch than I remember to shoe-on with tire irons than the Spanish made ones."
"So far the only issues to report are the mutha effin tight fit issues during the install process.
Haven't heard of any operational issues."

I can tell you one thing...mounted or not, it will be a cold day in hell before I buy another Chinese Pirelli/Metzeler tire!

Problem is you don't know the country of origin when you order. So unless you are going to the local shop and picking from the over priced limited tire selection they have in-stock where you can see the country of origin you'll have to play the hand you are dealt if ordering via the Al Gore invention

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2021, 07:26:05 PM »
These issues lead me to buy my tires from my dealer and he puts them on.

All great if you want to pay the premium. I get tires 40 to 60% less than what local dealers charge and an hour of my labor to change them at my convenience. My tire machine has paid for itself 10X over.



Online john fish

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2021, 07:30:12 PM »


       Put the tools down, take a break and come back at it with a fresh set of eyes, always helps me when I'm stuck and frustrated.

       It'll come, good luck and stay safe

Best advice right there.
He lost the run of himself.

Offline Motormike

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Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2021, 07:46:53 PM »
I'll give it rest for now.  Ordered one of those "clip-lock" air chucks which will certainly help.  I do think the tire might be a bit undersized.  The bead seats about two-thirds of the way around on both side of the tire, but the remaining bead just pulls down tight into the drop center and won't budge.  It's a 120/70-17, but one would swear it's too small by the fight it's giving me.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 07:47:45 PM by Motormike »

 

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