Author Topic: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!  (Read 5424 times)

Offline Motormike

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1349
  • Location: Tennessee
Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« on: April 09, 2021, 02:04:38 PM »
I'm completely flummoxed (and worn out).  For the last 4-5 hours I've been trying to install a new front tire on my Griso.  Got the old Metzeler Z8 off the rim.  (No easy task...I hate NoMar) Struggled to get the new tire on the rim, but finally did it without too much blood (did I mention how much I hate NoMar?). Now, for the life of me, I can't get the bead to seat on the rim.  I've tried every trick I know. I've soaped it, bounced it, left it in the sun for an hour, inflated it, deflated it, bounced it some more, re-inflated it.  Around 60 to 70 psi, I can see the bubbles start to form around the part of the bead that is seated, so I'm only able to get about 60 psi in the tire, no matter how hi I set the compressor.  I've never struggled with a tire like I have this one.  Of course, the old Metzeler said "Made in Germany" on the sidewall, where as the new one says, "Made in China," so who knows if it's even round?  Any ideas?  How much pressure should it take to seat a motorcycle tire?

Online egschade

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1609
  • Eric - MGNOC NJ Rep - mgnocnj.forumotion.com
  • Location: Basking Ridge, NJ
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2021, 02:20:03 PM »
I've never needed more than 40-50 PSI to seat a tire. As I recall my Pirelli Scorpion tire installation on my Griso went very smoothly. Perhaps you gouged the rim enough to cause a problem. Check the shoulders and get a little more lube on before trying to seat the tire again.

That said, I've seen others reporting bad tires so you may well have a defect on your hands.
The elder Eric in NJ

2020 V85TT Adventure
1985 LeMans 1000
2005 BMW F650GS

Past Guzzis:
V65 SP
V7 III
V50
Griso 1200SE Tenni
Breva 1100
EV Touring

Online Dirk_S

  • www.dirkshearer.com
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1506
  • Doodler of doodles
    • www.DirkShearer.com
  • Location: Portland, Maine, U.S.
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2021, 02:22:36 PM »
The bead on the Pirelli MT60s were a bit of a bear for me to seat on my V7. Took the bike to a mom and pop tire shop in western NH. They had a little bit of trouble themselves but finally got it on using Tire Snot, available on Amazon. I had to do the procedure myself after re-sealing the spoked for tubeless, and used the product. I was able to get the tires on with the help of that product. It’s like the consistency of wet corn starch.
Current: ‘16 Guzzi V7 II Stone, ‘78 BMW R80/7

Previous: ‘15 Ural Gear Up, ‘77 Kawasaki KZ400 Special, ‘78 Honda CX500S, ‘80 Honda CX500D, ‘11 Suzuki TU250X

Online Dirk_S

  • www.dirkshearer.com
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1506
  • Doodler of doodles
    • www.DirkShearer.com
  • Location: Portland, Maine, U.S.
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2021, 03:11:23 PM »
I have installed 100's of tires on every type wheel and/or style motorcycle and if you are fighting to mount/dismount the tire you are doing it wrong. Its not NoMar or any other tire machines fault, its your technique.

Significantly disagree with all due respect.

I’ve done other tires myself. I couldn’t do these MT60s, and the mom & pop shop had trouble as well until they pulled out the snot.

Some tires are tougher than others.
Proper lube helps.
Proper tools help.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 03:12:04 PM by Dirk_S »
Current: ‘16 Guzzi V7 II Stone, ‘78 BMW R80/7

Previous: ‘15 Ural Gear Up, ‘77 Kawasaki KZ400 Special, ‘78 Honda CX500S, ‘80 Honda CX500D, ‘11 Suzuki TU250X

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2021, 03:11:23 PM »

Offline cookiemech

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • Posts: 402
  • Location: West Newton, PA
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2021, 03:16:11 PM »
I've installed maybe 180 motorcycle tires (and plenty of car tires) and yeah, sometimes the SOBs just don't want to seat. I use Ru-Glyde liberally and when they won't seat at 50 to 60 psig, I use a clamp-on tire chuck (valve stem removed) and control the air supply from the other side of the garage, since I don't wish to be hit by an exploding tire or rim. I've had Metzelers (made in Brazil) take 90 psig to seat. There was nothing wrong with the rim or the type or amount of lube I used. And once seated, the tires always worked fine on the motorcycles.

Online Ncdan

  • Global Moderator
  • Gaggle Hero
  • *
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5878
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2021, 03:57:04 PM »
Put a small mark on the rim where it’s not seating. Let all the air out and break the tire from the rim. Turn the tire 180 degrees then pump her back up. If it does not seat then, get back for step 2.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:48:53 PM by Ncdan »

Offline Solorider73

  • Gosling
  • ***
  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • Location: Huntsville Alabama
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2021, 04:31:34 PM »
I usually only change dual sport tires these days, just to keep in practice.  A small shop a few miles from my house will change and balance the tires if you bring in the wheels for $25 per wheel.  It's just not worth the trouble, sweat and cursing for me.  Some of the ADV tires have really stiff side walls that can be a real bear to change even with professional shop equipment.

I've never done it, but I have read where people will ride around the block for hard to seat beads.  I assume this would be a slow speed ride.
Current Stable
2019 MG V7 lll Stone
2020 MG V85TT Adventure
2021 Royal Enfield Himalayan

Offline Peter949

  • PeterCaliII
  • Hatchling
  • **
  • Posts: 188
  • 84 Cali II
  • Location: Creemore Ontario Canada
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2021, 04:48:56 PM »
Recently I had great difficulty seating the bead on a Shinko tire for my California II. I finally took it to a local shop. The rim was smooth with no nicks. Plenty of tire lube used. Very high air pressure was tried. Still the bead would not fully seat. Eventually after several attempts, the bead finally seated. The shop mechanic had no idea why this new tire was so difficult to seat.   :undecided:




temporary picture sharing
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 04:50:39 PM by Peter949 »
Peter

1984  Cali II
Aprilia 125 Sportcity Scooter

Offline Motormike

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1349
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2021, 04:56:27 PM »
I have installed 100's of tires on every type wheel and/or style motorcycle and if you are fighting to mount/dismount the tire you are doing it wrong. Its not NoMar or any other tire machines fault, its your technique.
Please, ObiWan, explain what technique I need to use to inflate a tire?

Offline Motormike

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1349
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2021, 04:59:56 PM »
I took the rim with the tire to the local Auto tire shop.  They said "we won't touch it."  I tried to explain all I wanted them to do was inflate it enough to seat the bead.  They simply said "we won't do motorcycle tires." And that was that.  Anybody want to buy a rare one-wheeled Griso?  If you're really good at wheelies, you can ride it home!

Offline Motormike

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1349
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2021, 05:04:42 PM »
I suspect (although without X-ray vision, I can't be certain) that the bead in question is stuck on the spoke nipples. (no rim strip)  I used lot's of lube in the drop-center, but if the bead is caught, about all I can do is take it off and try again. Or drive the 70 mile round trip to the nearest motorcycle shop.  Ugh. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:06:09 PM by Motormike »

Offline SmithSwede

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2113
  • I don't want a pickle
  • Location: Dallas, Texas
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2021, 05:05:32 PM »
First, are you dead certain you are mounting the correct size tire to the wheel.   If not, obviously stop. 

DO NOT attempt to seat the bead using excess pressure!!!  I would not go over 60 psi.  Death or serious personal injury can occur if you over-inflate.  The injury photos are gruesome.

Get the tire as hot as you can.  Leave it out in the direct sun for hours.  Place above your hot car engine with a blanket on it.  The hotter and more flexible the rubber, the easier it will seat. 

Use plenty of lube all around the bead seat on both sides of the wheel and tire.  You may think you have lubed this area, but you may not have lube on the ramp out of the drop center.   Something is sticking and hanging up. 
 
Remove the valve stem and inflate with an air compressor gun.  You want a fast intake of air as opposed to a slow inflation through a restrictive valve stem.     

I have sometimes wrapped a cinch ratchet around the circumference of the tire to push it down, but be careful not to over-inflate.   

I like the idea of marking the non-seating portion of the tire and rotating it to a different area. 

Try patience.  Lube it, inflate to 60 psi, and leave out in the sun.  Maybe it will pop in place after a few hours.   

I know they make a Cheetah bead seating tool, but I’ve never used one. 

 
Accentuate the positive;
Eliminate the negative;
Latch on to the affirmative;
Don't mess with Mister In-Between.

Offline kindoy2

  • New Egg
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 17
  • Location: N.Cal
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2021, 05:12:00 PM »
I've never needed more than 40-50 PSI to seat a tire. As I recall my Pirelli Scorpion tire installation on my Griso went very smoothly. Perhaps you gouged the rim enough to cause a problem. Check the shoulders and get a little more lube on before trying to seat the tire again.

That said, I've seen others reporting bad tires so you may well have a defect on your hands.


If you don't have a regular commercial "Bead Belt"..but
If you do have a decent ratchet strap tie down..wrap it around the outer circumference  of the tire and cinch it down very tight...that along with with plenty of soapy water and a good compressor it usually works for me when I'm having bead trouble
1999  Bassa, 2002 Scura, 2022 Ducati Supersport 950S
Previously..2000 V11 Greenie sport, 2001 Rosso Mandello, 2003 Rosso Corsa...and about 100 other mostly Italian money pits...

oldbike54

  • Guest
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2021, 05:18:20 PM »
 I have a box that has a piece of glass on one side . Placing the tyre in the box and setting it in the Sun for the solar gain results in a nicely warmed tyre. then use the zip tie method to mount the tyre over the rim . Warmed up and stretched slightly , the tyre almost seats its self .

 Dusty
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:20:08 PM by oldbike54 »

Offline kirby1923

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 508
  • '81 CX100
  • Location: SoCal (rural) near Tehachapi CA, Rogers AR when in the states other times GMT+1 thu +6
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2021, 05:51:17 PM »
My .02,

I've been changing tires on motorbikes for  'bout 50 years or so and have done at least 50 sets on my current beemer in the last 16 years.

Good idea to heat them up in the sun ,like a parked in the sun car w/windows rolled up so they are soft. Also important to clean very well the inside of the rim where the tire is seated and lube. I use the tire lube that NAPA sells and it works good. Coat the tire and the rim and remove the valve CORE, (important) and get a clip-on air chuck (clips on the threaded part to the stem).

I set my little compressor to 110 psi and just clip it on the tire and move away 'bout ten feet until I hear the "pop"  usually a couple then un clip the chuck and let the tire deflate.

Check that the bead is even all around the rim on both sides, and reinstall core in the stem and inflate to what ever you run  for pressure.

Usually the tire bead will seat somewhere under 80 psi. With a small compressor it is highly unlikely your going to either cause the tire to "blow up " or jump the rim using a normal small compressor set to around 100 psi.

If your uncomfortable w/this procedure have some one else do it.

Of course in a pinch you can be bold and use the "starter fluid" method... spray a bit in the tire and use a BIC lighter to ignite  and pop its done. Have done this but only as last ditch effort. A fav for seating big tractor tires!! (done many!)

FWIW

:-)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:56:19 PM by kirby1923 »
'81 CX100


A calm and modest life brings more happiness than the constant pursuit of success combined with constant restlessness.. Einstein,A

Online Vagrant

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2136
  • Location: Gainesville, Ga or Green Valley Az.
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2021, 06:04:29 PM »
skip the tire lube. spray the entire rim and the tire with Pam. Yes that Pam. Never had an issue with it. Ruglide, not so much.
Then go fry some eggs!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 06:05:51 PM by Vagrant »
HE IS FREE WHO LIVES AS HE CHOOSES
2016 V7II, 2017 V7-III Blue special, 2022 V85 the fast red one! 2016 650 Versys
L-196, L-197

Offline Motormike

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1349
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2021, 06:45:39 PM »
I've changed a couple of dozen tires, and this is the first one that's whipped me totally.  I've tried the ratchet strap method, no luck.  I've removed and reinstalled the tire twice now, rotated it every which way, it still won't seat.  It's plenty lubed now...so greasy inside and out I can barely hang on to it without it slipping out of my hands like a greased pig! Probably spin on the rim if I ever get it mounted! Grab and handful of front brake and the rim will stop, but the tire will keep turning!  What kind of compressor hoses are some of you using that "clip" on?  I have to sit there and hold the chuck on the valve stem.  I haven't seen a clip-on style of air-chuck since my bicycle pump days when I was a kid.   If I had a way to clip the hose to the valve stem, I'd just set er to 100 psi and get back.  Hell, a tire exploding would be an improvement over where I am with it now.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 06:50:26 PM by Motormike »

Offline john fish

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1865
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2021, 07:03:31 PM »
Here's one but I got mine at the auto parts store.

https://www.harborfreight.com/tire-chuck-with-lock-on-lever-62626.html?cid=paid_google|||62626&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=&utm_content=&gclid=CjwKCAjw9r-DBhBxEiwA9qYUparuPcqkAw4nsT3YQ9vVP_ZPbxnEGRriAw3DC6sVNh9xoq_nW0RL7RoC99EQAvD_BwE

He lost the run of himself.

Offline 80CX100

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1433
  • Location: Ontario, Canada
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2021, 07:08:05 PM »
       Btdt, I had a ft tire on my DR650 on and off at least 3 times before I finally got it to seat, high pressure, hot sun and bouncing was the cure for that b*tch.

       Your air chuck that you have to hold on and force air through the valve into the valve stem isn't helping you.

       It's the big inrush of tank pressure that will seat it,,,, remove the valve stem innards,,, get a clip on chuck, cover everything with a blanket, and then open up the regulator from the tank to the hose, or a foot valve would be sweet (it's on my list but not in the shop yet, lol).

       It sounds like you may want to take the tire off and clean up all that lube first or you will have problems later.

       I've seen some of the racer boys use tire warmers, or as has been suggested make up little hot boxes, tarps over chairs etc with work lamps inside, front of the woodstove, etc  I've got a set of tires sitting in my hot car for the last couple of days, waiting for me to get the stars aligned for my own tire battles, lol.

       Put the tools down, take a break and come back at it with a fresh set of eyes, always helps me when I'm stuck and frustrated.

       It'll come, good luck and stay safe
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 07:11:23 PM by 80CX100 »
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline Motormike

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1349
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2021, 07:17:05 PM »
I've come across several posts on sites like Bay Area Riders (BARF) that complain the made-in-china Metzelers are smaller by 1-2 mm than the old ones make in Germany.  All these posts are from 2014: 

"One odd thing I have noticed with the China production tires is that they seem almost 1mm smaller compared to prior Euro production tires. It takes a little extra pressure to get them seated on the rim."
"Seems like the 17" tires are actually 16.98" in size"
"And yes they were a bigger bitch than I remember to shoe-on with tire irons than the Spanish made ones."
"So far the only issues to report are the mutha effin tight fit issues during the install process.
Haven't heard of any operational issues."

I can tell you one thing...mounted or not, it will be a cold day in hell before I buy another Chinese Pirelli/Metzeler tire!

Online Tkelly

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 1030
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2021, 07:21:28 PM »
These issues lead me to buy my tires from my dealer and he puts them on.

Offline john fish

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1865
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2021, 07:30:12 PM »


       Put the tools down, take a break and come back at it with a fresh set of eyes, always helps me when I'm stuck and frustrated.

       It'll come, good luck and stay safe

Best advice right there.
He lost the run of himself.

Offline Motormike

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1349
  • Location: Tennessee
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2021, 07:46:53 PM »
I'll give it rest for now.  Ordered one of those "clip-lock" air chucks which will certainly help.  I do think the tire might be a bit undersized.  The bead seats about two-thirds of the way around on both side of the tire, but the remaining bead just pulls down tight into the drop center and won't budge.  It's a 120/70-17, but one would swear it's too small by the fight it's giving me.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 07:47:45 PM by Motormike »

Offline et18

  • Hatchling
  • **
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 157
  • Location: Lebanon, Ohio
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2021, 07:50:12 PM »
The only thing I can add is to clean the bead area very well with a scotch-brite pad.  The first time I changed the 200 / 60 rear on my 1400 I couldn't get the bead to set with even with 60 lbs.  Someone (maybe from this forum?) gave me the scotch brite tip and they have all set with less than 30 lbs since then.

I'll be changing another 200 / 60 tomorrow, not looking forward to it!  Every 6K miles.
2014 California Touring
1994 BMW R1100RS
2001 BMW R1200C

bobrebos

  • Guest
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2021, 08:22:57 PM »
where as the new one says, "Made in China," so who knows if it's even round? 

That right there is funny!   :laugh:

Offline SmithSwede

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2113
  • I don't want a pickle
  • Location: Dallas, Texas
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2021, 08:44:02 PM »
Hmmm.  Out of spec tire would a problem.   

Even if you do get it seated, I’m not sure I’d be comfortable riding a out of spec and now stressed tire, especially on the front.   Maybe ditch the crap tire and get a quality one.   
Accentuate the positive;
Eliminate the negative;
Latch on to the affirmative;
Don't mess with Mister In-Between.

Online SIR REAL ED

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2250
  • uh.... it's personal....
  • Location: Forest, VA
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2021, 08:57:27 PM »
All great if you want to pay the premium. I get tires 40 to 60% less than what local dealers charge and an hour of my labor to change them at my convenience. My tire machine has paid for itself 10X over.

What type of tire machine do you have?  Would you buy it again?  If not, what would you buy?
"If reading shite on the internet will trigger your head exploding, please wrap your head in Gorilla tape before logging on.  Thanks!!!"

2019 Beta EVO 250
1999 Suzuki DR 650 w/790cc kit
1994, 2001, & 2002 MZ Skorpions
1992 YAMAHA TDM850

Online SIR REAL ED

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2250
  • uh.... it's personal....
  • Location: Forest, VA
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2021, 09:01:33 PM »
I have a box that has a piece of glass on one side . Placing the tyre in the box and setting it in the Sun for the solar gain results in a nicely warmed tyre. then use the zip tie method to mount the tyre over the rim . Warmed up and stretched slightly , the tyre almost seats its self .

 Dusty

I like the idea of a solar box tire warmer, also the idea of leaving the tire in the car.  What is the zip tie method of mounting a tire?
"If reading shite on the internet will trigger your head exploding, please wrap your head in Gorilla tape before logging on.  Thanks!!!"

2019 Beta EVO 250
1999 Suzuki DR 650 w/790cc kit
1994, 2001, & 2002 MZ Skorpions
1992 YAMAHA TDM850

Offline Tom

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 28584
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2021, 09:44:15 PM »
No need to get racist guys.  "Negah sifut kwai lo." 

I use dish soap & water for lube.  The air bubbles help block the air going out and seat the bead.  I always use a ratchet strap on the tire while inflating.  I have more problems with tubed tire installation than tubeless tires.
From the Deep Deep South out in left field.  There are no stupid questions.  There are however stupid people asking questions.  🤣, this includes me.  😉

Offline Scout63

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2682
  • Location: Orleans, MA USA
Re: Beaten by a F***ing Tire!
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2021, 09:50:07 PM »
I'll give it rest for now.  Ordered one of those "clip-lock" air chucks which will certainly help.  I do think the tire might be a bit undersized.  The bead seats about two-thirds of the way around on both side of the tire, but the remaining bead just pulls down tight into the drop center and won't budge.  It's a 120/70-17, but one would swear it's too small by the fight it's giving me.

I’ve had the same problem with new Avon Roadriders on my v50 today.  No matter what I tried, I couldn't get one side to seat.  I swear it is a mm or two two small.  I finally ordered new Duros and then saw this thread. I’ll go back and try again tomorrow.
Ben Zehnder - Orleans, MA USA

***Wildguzzi Official Logo High Quality 5 Color Window Decals Back In Stock***
Shipping in USA Only. Awesome quality. Back by popular demand. All proceeds go back into the forum.
http://www.wildguzzi.com/Products/products.htm
Advertise Here
 

20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
Advertise Here