Muscle memory and linked Brembo brakes

[oldbike54]

 Coming home from the Okie I had a close encounter with a Doe and a juvenile deer . Just caught the movement of them from the left , and having been conditioning myself to use the rear pedal in concert with the front lever on the first linked brake Guzzi I have owned , the Bassa just came to a nicely controlled quick stop . Or an almost complete stop anyway , probably down to about 5 MPH from 70 MPH , allowing time for the juvenile to get its footing on the pavement and continue in pursuit of mamma . The brakes combined with still decent reflexes , situational awareness , and maybe a bit of raw dumb luck meant it was a non-event instead of something much worse .

 Oddly enough , this happened along the same stretch of highway where two years in a row coming home from the Okie some driver decided it would be fun to mess with a motorbike rider . Maybe next time I'll come home a different way 

 Dusty

[Chuck in Indiana]

Attaboy, Dusty.. and yeah, they work pretty well. 

[oldbike54]

 Thanks Chuckie ,

 There is something to be said for a long wheelbase , good weight distribution , and a nicely balanced braking system in a panic stop situation . At 5 MPH instead of 30 MPH the baby trying to gain traction 15 feet in front of me was more of an interesting study in said traction than a fear inducing event . There are motorbikes that will stop quicker , but probably very few that can do so with almost zero drama 

 Dusty

[not-fishing]

Thanks for the post.

When I do my errands ride today I'll find me a stretch to practice a few panic stops.  My memory doesn't seem to be what it used to be.     

In California you always seem to need to be able to panic stop.  Very rarely for deer.

Mainly Turkeys, the unfeathered type.  Darwin takes care of the feathered type.

[Gliderjohn]

Happy to hear the brakes did their job well for you.
GliderJohn

[bigbikerrick]

Phew, that was a close call! I will also practice my panic braking some in the next few days to keep up my skills.
Thanks for the reminder,
Rick.

[John A]

Zero drama is the key point. I sure like that!

[oldbike54]

Zero drama is the key point. I sure like that!

 We had been riding the Talimena Drive the day before , a road where braking comes into play every few hundred feet .

 I pulled over just a couple of miles North in Porum OK to assess what had happened , one of the interesting things was the lack of an *oh shyte moment* . Spoke with Chuckie this morning about this , we both came to the same conclusion , good riding habits keep us alive . At some point in our youth , all of us long time high miler types had to make some conscious decision to become competent motorbikers . Reflecting on the event while sitting on a bench in the shade in Porum , a strange sense of calm descended , the knowledge that continuing to hone a skill set is advantageous produced some feelings of reassurance . Heck , I am nothing more than a competent rider , not all that fast , or flashy , which means anyone can benefit from practice .

 Dusty

[Guzzistajohn]

As much as I’ve enjoyed the Tiger, I have always missed my Guzzi’s brakes during those oh shyte moments. Glad you didn’t have Bambi contact!

[oldbike54]

As much as I’ve enjoyed the Tiger, I have always missed my Guzzi’s brakes during those oh shyte moments. Glad you didn’t have Bambi contact!

 Thanks , and Bambi is probably happy also .

 Dusty

[balvenie]

Onya Dusty

[oldbike54]

Onya Dusty

 Thanks Bill .

 Dusty

[Rich A]

On a somewhat related note, I took a Skilled Rider Course put on by the local Harley shop. I was scolded several times for covering the brake lever with two fingers (I have a shorty Pazzo brake lever on the bike).

What?

Rich A

[Roebling3]

The yclept Hamlin conversion added a Brembo 4 piston caliper & radial mc to my 3 series racers' frt. wheel. And, for whatever reason caused the abs to finally activate.
If you enjoy competent braking, sweet feel at every stop, or slow down, take a look at the 'endurance racer V7' bikes. They appear to have the same set up. R3~

[balvenie]

On a somewhat related note, I took a Skilled Rider Course put on by the local Harley shop. I was scolded several times for covering the brake lever with two fingers (I have a shorty Pazzo brake lever on the bike).

What?

Rich A

I "heard" that covering led to locking the brake on your run of the mill, motorcycle. But it never happened to me, covered or uncovered, in practice/crash stops.

[Tom H]

I am very glad all worked out well for you and bambi.

But muscle memory can be a bad thing as well. I learned this the hard way. Rode Loops for the last 35 years, so you 4 finger the brake if you even want to think about stopping. Yes, a bit of humor there, they can be made to work rather well, my Loops do. Well the lesson I learned was NOT to 4 finger my EVT and to not stand on the rear pedal, especially while trying to avoid something in the road. Last thing I remember was an image of 4 fingers on the lever, next was me rolling on the ground. Fortunately I don't remember hitting the ground.

Again very glad you only has a close encounter!!

Tom

[kirby1923]

I am sure anything I write about linked or un linked brakes will not change any minds on the subject but..

The first Guzzi I rode that had linked brakes I was shocked about the lack of braking  I had with just the front leaver. Wasn't used to that with a lifetime of using mostly the front for deceleration duties.

For those that like them, so be it, but trying to modulate a front disc with my foot is quite foreign  and I have no desire to retrain myself to do so. Both my Guzzis have been de-linked.

Most of us (at least me) use both brakes stopping from good speed in a straight line and will transition to front only while in the higher bank angles while transitioning my right foot to the balls of the foot on the peg for ground clearance.

Having to use both the pedal and the front leaver to get full braking in many situations is in my opinion just plain crazy. Its was intended for those who tend to use only the rear pedal for braking.

I'm not one of those, when I get into the front brakes I want it all both discs. Its just the way I have ridden for many years.

Just wanted to point out that we that like unlinked brakes do indeed use the rear regularly while riding.

Yeah you can get full braking if you brakes are linked (I think, but due to the different modulation from the foot and the hand could be a problem in the higher performance riding?) I have been known to ride a slightly extra legal speeds.

I really can't imagine riding a track day with(Guzzi type) linked brakes!

BTW
I'm talking about the way Guzzi links the brakes with the hand leaver operating only one front disc. Honda does it better (but I still rather have them separated.)

:-)

[oldbike54]

 I had always been primarily a front brake guy , and yes , on the track where I would trail brake an unlinked system would be preferable . Point is , I had practicing using the rear pedal , retraining my muscle memory on purpose , and it worked . It seems unlikely the stop could have been performed in a shorter distance , or with less drama than what was accomplished on Sunday using the pedal and the lever . To some extent , the linked part with the proportioning valve keeps the rear tire from locking , and modulating the front wheel braking force using the lever still feels natural .


 Dusty

[kirby1923]

Humm? Muscle memory..right.

I can say w/o doubt that every surprise situation I have ever had to make a max effort braking maneuver I have used BOTH the pedal and the lever..every  time.   Is zat muscle  memory? or is that knowing how to ride a motorbike properly?

A non believer!
me.

:-)

[oldbike54]

Humm? Muscle memory..right.

I can say w/o doubt that every surprise situation I have ever had to make a max effort braking maneuver I have used BOTH the pedal and the lever..every  time.   Is zat muscle  memory? or is that knowing how to ride a motorbike properly?

A non believer!
me.

:-)

 No idea , you have completely lost me Mike . Are you saying I don't know how to ride a motorbike , or that muscle memory can't be retrained , or that linked brakes don't work ? All I have to go by is what I experienced , the bike stopped , quickly , my retrained muscle memory seemed to react automatically . <scratches head>

 Dusty

 

[kirby1923]

Ha! I would never say you don't know how to ride!

What I'm saying is what you call muscle memory I would call your sub conscious mind at work. Once you learn to ride the brain remembers how. That is why you go where you look without even thinking about it, you brain knows what to do.

My whole point is that I'm not and never will be a fan of linked (Guzzi method) brakes and really don't care for anti lockers' cause I sometimes like to lock up the rear.

cheers!!

I'll go away  now!
:-)

[wirespokes]

Do you get ALL of the maximum braking force with the linked system? With the proportioning valve doesn't it limit the amount of force to the rear? Or is it the front? Whichever - seems that one of them never gets maximum force.

In a braking situation as described I don't imagine it would make much difference whether they're linked on separate - and if you're a good rider who uses both brakes. It's only those times front brake is called for, without the rear, that linked isn't such a good idea.

My T3 is still linked and one of these days I'll get around to separating the rear from the front. I prefer unlinked, just not a high priority to do anything about it yet. I agree with kirby - linked was a way to force 'rear brakers' to use both. Linked brakes, otherwise, aren't any safer than un-linked.

[oldbike54]

Do you get ALL of the maximum braking force with the linked system? With the proportioning valve doesn't it limit the amount of force to the rear? Or is it the front? Whichever - seems that one of them never gets maximum force.

In a braking situation as described I don't imagine it would make much difference whether they're linked on separate - and if you're a good rider who uses both brakes. It's only those times front brake is called for, without the rear, that linked isn't such a good idea.

My T3 is still linked and one of these days I'll get around to separating the rear from the front. I prefer unlinked, just not a high priority to do anything about it yet. I agree with kirby - linked was a way to force 'rear brakers' to use both. Linked brakes, otherwise, aren't any safer than un-linked.

 You are talking about an old T3 with marginal brakes , the Bassa has a system at least two generations newer . I'll make you guys a deal , we'll run them up to 80 MPH side by side and start braking at a predetermined point . If you can stop quicker than I can , I'll give each one of you ten bucks , and vice-versa . Other than that , well , it is all talk and contrarianism . The system woks , I proved it to myself , get over it . Fair enough ?

 Dusty

[nick949]

Well done Dusty. Glad it worked out well for you and all those years of safe riding paid off.

Those that don't like the idea of linked brakes don't know what they're missing. I rode a lot of Convert miles today, much of it on unpaved, single track roads with plenty of loose gravel and plenty of hills and corners. Never once did I feel that I would have been better off with unlinked brakes, even on steep, washboarded, loose, downhill sections. There is never any fear that the front end is going to wash out. How they achieve that trick, I don't know, but the Converts linked brakes work a treat. 

And yes, like you, I've played dodgems with deer and just grab a handful of front while stomping on the pedal.  So far, so good!

Nick

[Testarossa]

Every bike I own has a different braking system, so I have to stay flexible. The linked braking system on the Mille is superb but requires patience in pea-gravel or where sand has drifted onto the pavement. Especially on downhill bits, loose surfaces encourage rear-brake only until most of the speed is lost.

I brake for deer two or three times each summer but most often encounter flocks of wild dinosaurs on the local roads. They came into the yard this morning and I needed help to drive them off.

[LowRyter]

The Linked Brake setup works well on my EV.   I was skeptical until I rode it.  One ride and I thought it was fine.  I even like the heel nub.

I think I'll take the EV out tonight for the dinner ride down to Norman.  Gonna have to bundle up, cool front just came in.

[Diploman]

One of the unheralded advantages of Guzzi's excellent linked ("Integral") brake system is that it builds on/draws upon the deeply-implanted muscle memory of every rider who drives a car:  The brain registers "need to stop" = muscle memory responds with "right foot on brake pedal".   Skill transfer.  Is it really good idea, in any case, for the motorcyclist's right hand to have two simultaneous functions - throttle and brake - in an emergency situation?  Taking this logic a step further, in the pre-ABS era Dr. John Wittner set up one of his Guzzi racers with all three calipers actuated by the foot pedal.  Apparently the results were quite satisfactory.   

[Gliderjohn]

My take is that in regular real world riding for most riders the linked system is probably better overall. Like ABS a skilled and practiced rider can probably outperform it by a small margin but most of us mere mortals who probably do not practice our braking skills nearly enough if we are honest with ourselves are better off with the linked system and ABS if the bike has it.
Being honest we have to keep in mind that 80+ percent of us are sure we are better riders than the other 50%. 
GliderJohn

[oldbike54]

 ^^^Yep

 

 Dusty

[wirespokes]

In a full-on panic stop I don't see how linked brakes would stop any quicker than not linked. It makes no sense to me. If the brakes are on, they're ON!

The only other variable is modulating the brakes. With linked brakes, you'd be modulating the left front as well as the rear with your foot. I don't know how that goes, but can't imagine that necessarily being better than modulating both fronts with your right hand.

I'm not knocking linked brakes - they're just not for me. I make them work all right on the T3, and there is no proportioning valve till sometime in the late 80s if I recall correctly. But I've got a driveway that slopes down hill and to the right - it's also off-camber. Gravel also tends to wash onto it. When it's wet and slippery I'd rather just use a little rear to keep me slowed till around that turn.

Off camber turns on gravel roads, especially blind corners, don't give me a lot of confidence with linked brakes. It's bad enough with normal brakes.

By the way, well done, Dusty for avoiding an 'up close and personal' meeting with those deer!