Gone to the Dark Side - Ducati 860 GT

[canuck750]

I have stuck to my "No Ducati" rule for thirty plus years …. but all rules are meant to be broken!

I saw an ad for a Ducati 860 GT in eastern Canada and I should have known better but I called the seller and after a couple days reviewing pictures a deal was struck. The bike is a 1975 model, kick start single front disc. it has been repainted and it runs. The Giugiaro styling screams 1970's Italian angular lines, considered ugly in the day by many I find the lines to grow on me. The bike is somewhere between Toronto and here in Edmonton, can't wait to kick it over and hear the Conti's bark.

I would like to return it to look just like this.



Anyone have experience with these square edge bevels and can offer some advice on caring for it?

[czakky82]

Such cool dna in those. Those lines do grow on a guy as they age.

[twowings]

I wish you good fortune...my 860 GT was the absolute worst factory 'lemon' I ever owned...more time in shop than on road...

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

My friend Joseph's electric start 860GT has been in my shed for several years now. Total basketcase, I wish he'd do something with it, I could use the space.

[canuck750]

The House of Giugiaro penned a lot of iconic designs in the 70's. to name a few

Alpha

Maserati

Lotus

VW

I think the Ducati 860 design was done on a Friday, probably at 4:45 …...

[Lannis]

That's not particularly "dark".

I've seen worse!

Lannis

[Huzo]

Canuck, once you’ve finished with yours, don’t expect it to look like the publicity shot.
Yours will look better..
Do they run the same geometry as the Darmah..?

[Peter949]

Now that is my favorite Ducati model! 

[yogidozer]

You'll be punished 



rebuilt title meaning in florida

[Glawster]

I bought a tragedy of a 900GTS in 2013 and rebuilt it completely as below.  The GT belongs to a friend of mine and we were on a tour of Scotland.
The 864 Bevel engine in any form really is a wonderful creation.  Plenty of power from any revs, completely smooth and sounds glorious.
The downside is that the availability of parts is nothing like as easy as a Guzzi, and the prices are eye watering.  Mdina Italia in UK is a good source of spares, and I found Ian Gowanloch in Australia to be a goldmine of rare parts.
I did blog the rebuild here, but since the demise of photobucket most of the photos have been deleted.
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php?19560-Another-900-GTS-story.-The-Black-Pig

DSC_1847 by Derek0812, on Flickr

[steven c]

 My friend had a 900GT. With him and his Conti's and me on my 850-T with Dunstal's the sound was pure Italian soul. I love the motor on that bike,took a little more effort the steer then the T, seat was a 2x4 with a cover and I thought it was a cool looking bike.

[canuck750]

I bought a tragedy of a 900GTS in 2013 and rebuilt it completely as below.  The GT belongs to a friend of mine and we were on a tour of Scotland.
The 864 Bevel engine in any form really is a wonderful creation.  Plenty of power from any revs, completely smooth and sounds glorious.
The downside is that the availability of parts is nothing like as easy as a Guzzi, and the prices are eye watering.  Mdina Italia in UK is a good source of spares, and I found Ian Gowanloch in Australia to be a goldmine of rare parts.
I did blog the rebuild here, but since the demise of photobucket most of the photos have been deleted.
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/forum/showthread.php?19560-Another-900-GTS-story.-The-Black-Pig

DSC_1847 by Derek0812, on Flickr

Great looking bikes and thank you for the link to your blog, I have some reading to do!

Do you have a paint colour for your copper 860 GT, I want to have the bike painted that colour, I think its the 'right' colour for the bike and the era.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Canuck, once you’ve finished with yours, don’t expect it to look like the publicity shot.
Yours will look better..
Do they run the same geometry as the Darmah..?

I don't think so. The Darmah was quicker steering. I had both.. and loved the GTS. Should never have traded for the Darmah. A friend rode to work on his 2 GTSs year round. (!) Put over 100, 000 miles on both.

I wish you good fortune...my 860 GT was the absolute worst factory 'lemon' I ever owned...more time in shop than on road...

Just goes to show ya.. I had exactly the opposite experience. 

[canuck750]

Just goes to show ya.. I had exactly the opposite experience. 

That's good to hear Chuck!
Hopefully I won't need to rebuild the lump but it sure is tempting to tear the engine down just to try and understand how those bevel drives work

[canuck750]

Canuck, once you’ve finished with yours, don’t expect it to look like the publicity shot.
Yours will look better..
Do they run the same geometry as the Darmah..?

Thanks Huzo!

Can't tell you much about the Ducati design but a friend has a couple 860's and he is going to give it the once over when the bike arrives. My buddy is also building a 860 based custom with a lot of bespoke parts including hand made alloy tank and panels from a metal beating god in the U.K. It's going to be beauty.

[Chuck in Indiana]

That's good to hear Chuck!
Hopefully I won't need to rebuild the lump but it sure is tempting to tear the engine down just to try and understand how those bevel drives work

Jewelry..

[harrytief]

Hi Jim
I had a round case 750Gt years ago. Heaven to ride but hell to keep it fit to ride. Knowing your work and that you leave nothing unattended, you stand a better chance of successful ownership. Did the bike come from Steve in Toronto?
Harry

[Tusayan]

The frame on the 860GT has the same geometry as a Darmah, but later Darmahs came with longer rear shocks that make the steering a bit more responsive.  Neither of them handle as well as a 750GT, as discussed here before.

It’s nice to see a stock orange 860, most of them have been hacked up.  They were never the best looking version but I think our eyes have since been exposed to completely different levels of ugly (newer BMWs etc) and so they look OK today.

They are not in my view terribly difficult bikes to maintain. The biggest potential issue on any bevel twin Ducati is the condition of the connecting rod big end bearings.  I’ve replaced them and it is a lot of work.  Valve guides can also be worn, but the top end is very simple to work on.

They are very nice bikes to ride, although the silky smoothness of the engine takes a little getting used to in comparison with most older bikes.

[huub]

nice bike, as long as you dont plan to ride it much.
forget everything you now about expensive spare parts, ducati bevels spare parts are in a class of their own.
i recently tried  to buy a used engine cover for my ss, bid on ebay , the cover eventually  sold for over 1000 dollar
huh? 
that is what keeping me from riding my 900SS more , even a small mishap will end up pretty expensive.

having said that , you will be appreciating the guzzi spare parts availability

[canuck750]

Hi Jim
I had a round case 750Gt years ago. Heaven to ride but hell to keep it fit to ride. Knowing your work and that you leave nothing unattended, you stand a better chance of successful ownership. Did the bike come from Steve in Toronto?
Harry

Not a Mr. Troupe bike, this one was owned by a J. Cummings. It was advertised on the CVMG for sale site.

[SmithSwede]

I’m not sure about the lines of the bodywork, but the engine itself is so beautiful that it makes up for any deficiencies. 

Please keep us posted on your experiment in breaking a 30 year “No Ducati” rule.

[Fnq1000]

Hello
I am looking forward to this rebuild, I am sure that the results will be outstanding.

There were not that many 860GT produced and good on on you choosing a standard restoration. Most would be flogged out or if money is spent on them, they become SS replicas.

One thing that is not expensive is the 860GT bodywork. I'd suggest tracking down a couple of sets so that you can make the best of the 'far out!' 70's colours that were on offer. I personally don't like the metallic bronze in the brochure but love, love the metallic green of this even fewer 860 GTE (electric start) http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibrary/thumbnails.php?album=87 GT were also orange, so a nice stir for the Laverda crowd

Two other suggestions fit lower handle bars (see link photos) for better highway comfort and spend the money, buy an improved crank for piece of mind for you and resale.

And here's a website that might offer something to you http://www.ducatimeccanica.com

Hope you enjoy.

Cheers
Jason

[canuck750]

Hello
I am looking forward to this rebuild, I am sure that the results will be outstanding.

There were not that many 860GT produced and good on on you choosing a standard restoration. Most would be flogged out or if money is spent on them, they become SS replicas.

One thing that is not expensive is the 860GT bodywork. I'd suggest tracking down a couple of sets so that you can make the best of the 'far out!' 70's colours that were on offer. I personally don't like the metallic bronze in the brochure but love, love the metallic green of this even fewer 860 GTE (electric start) http://www.philaphoto.com/imageLibrary/thumbnails.php?album=87 GT were also orange, so a nice stir for the Laverda crowd

Two other suggestions fit lower handle bars (see link photos) for better highway comfort and spend the money, buy an improved crank for piece of mind for you and resale.

And here's a website that might offer something to you http://www.ducatimeccanica.com

Hope you enjoy.

Cheers
Jason

Thanks fore the website, I have seen the fellows bikes before, he is down south from me and several local Ducati guys have dealt with him in the past, mixed opinions. There is another Ducati mechanic who really knows his bevels just south of Calgary I have met and I think I may take it to him for an opinion on the engine after I have had a listen to it running.

The green bike is quite stunning but I have a green Benelli 650s Tornado so I think a copper bike is in order. I am going for variety of Italian bikes and colours in my collection All of the bikes I have found are in my opinion works of art, each is unique but the consistency of detail the Italians put into their machines is really second to none.

The Japanese may build a 'better' bike, and in the day the British may have dominated the market but the Italians …. their work truly stirs the soul!

[leafman60]

I was big into Ducati back in the 80's.  I had a round case 750 GT, a square case Darmah 900 and a square case 900SS.

As stated, the GTS was considered hideous-looking back then and they were priced at the bottom of the spectrum.

I serviced my bevel-drive twins and they weren't too difficult to check/set the Desmo clearances. One of the weak points was in the electric start mechanism of bikes so equipped.  The one-way Sprague clutch sprocket would go bad and need replacing. 

I preferred the kick-start-only models.  All of mine started up easily.

The 900SS was a runnin sumbich.   Bare bones and visceral. I miss it.

.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The 860GTE didn't even have a sprag clutch in the electric start system. It had what is quite possibly the most "Rube Goldberg" electric start arrangement of any Italian motorcycle engine. From memory, there is a Marelli solenoid (like on a Loop starter), mounted to the frame, which pulls on a rod, moves a bellcrank, pulls a rod and moves another bellcrank, and finally engages a bendix gear with the primary gear on the clutch. Any metal bits shed during that "engagement" are then in the engine oil. Not good. You can see the arm of one bellcrank and one rod in this photo.



I guess it looked better than Ducati's first attempt at putting electric start on their "L" twin, the 750GTe:


Makes the Moto Morini "giant wiper motor, chain-driven centrifugal clutch" setup look simple and logical. 

Jim - be glad that yours is kickstart only.

     

[Tusayan]

And now you know why non-electric start engine side covers sell for big bux.  Another reason depending on year is that with the right cover and a few other odds and ends you can convert some (later) Darmah engines into a 900SS engine.

[Knuckle Dragger]

There's a few notable & relatively unique characteristics about the 860GT that aren't present on just about any other Ducati.

Firstly, there's the abovementioned Italdesign engine crankcases & bodywork.  Gorgio Giugiaro's styling efforts were fairly polarising in its day.  A common theme was that he should've stuck to four wheeled styling exercises.  Time has perhaps been a little kinder to the 860GT than contemporary commentators.  Certainly, there was a necessity to cut production costs and to simplify manufacture from the rather complex & costly 750 Round-case models.

Its extremely short production run (Sept '74 - July '75), and numbers (<3000)  is indicative of flagging demand.  This also serves to increase the model's rarity & perhaps (in modern terms) relative desirability.

It features the first iteration of the new 860 engine, with the square cases, (in later GTE guise) electric starter, and complex & expensive to manufacture cam towers and bevel driven OHC valve actuation.

Notably this & its 750GT predecessor are also notable for having a NON-Desmodromic valve actuation.  Instead using the much more ubiquitous (in all other manufacturers) conventional coil spring valve return.  As far as I'm aware, it's the last valve-sprung Ducati manufactured.  Blasphemy to some snobbish, diehard Ducatisti wankers I'm sure, but nevertheless providing a much more reliable and less fraught valve clearance adjustment mechanism that doesn't require the convoluted & time consuming double-Desmo shimming process.  Both non-Desmo GT models have proven over the years to be extremely reliable & much less temperamental machines.  It was also the first Duke (I think) to use the fabulously simple & effective eccentric swingarm mount/chain adjustment mechanism.  An exemplary example of simplicity & efficiency that could well be revisited by more modern manufacturers.

The addition of Contis, Laverda bars, rearsets, Imola tuned length pipes & race camshafts effectively transformed my own bike into a boy-racer replica with all the attendant hassles of reluctant (kick) cold starting, lumpy idling & stalling tendencies that rendered it at times virtually unrideable.

The milder motor, less intense tuning, later electric starter, standardised (small-ish) 32mm Dell-Orto carbs, tamer LaFranconi Silentium mufflers, much less extreme frame geometry, Ceriani front fork & Marzocchi rear cartsprings & upright seating position combined to make this easily the most city-friendly bevel drive Duke of all time.  In fact, the very antithesis of its more extreme 750 & 900ss stablemates.

A couple of things to watch out for:  just because there isn't the necessity for high-frequency valve adjustments any more doesn't mean you should skimp on oil & filter change frequency.  The GTs still have a fairly complex OHC drive mechanism to support, using high oil pump (80 PSI) pressure.  Keep the good oil up to it.

Also, on the RHS rear of the crankcase there's a little gear shaft protruding through just for'ard of the front sprocket shafy that has a small indicator (neutral light) switch cam lobe.  A remnant of the original right-foot gearchange perhaps??  My (900SS) model was perpetually weeping oil out of a damaged shaft seal.  It was annoying, but manageable:  only occurring during use.  For me it became a convenient de-facto chain oiler, but also tended to spray excess oil (engine oil is a bit thin after all) all over the rear wheel & mudguard.  To eliminate the problem without going to the expense of splitting the vertical crankcase & losing those all-important wired security seals you could remove the brass neutral light cam lobe (a grub screw) & cap the now useless jack-shaft with a small alloy cup either threaded or welded into the recess.

These models always had a proper bitch of a (heavy) wet clutch actuation.  You really need an extremely strong left hand grip, and even then the bike has a tendency to break cables.  Keep another on hand to allow for these contingencies is my recommendation.  It may not be the same for your smaller 32s, but my 40mm Dell'Ortos were almost perpetually going out of sync too.  Maybe a function of the asymmetric cylinder layout? A simple adjustment, however, that you'll soon get the hang of.  I changed the twistgrip to a "fast action" eccentric one that took better advantage of the carb's accelerator pumps.

It's been almost 40 years since I last had my own Ducati, so that's about all I can remember.  Just don't fu#k it up with ridiculous boy racer accessories like I did to mine is about my main recommendation.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If anyone can pull it off Jim will

I look forward to the blow by blow description.

[Chuck in Indiana]

You really need an extremely strong left hand grip, and even then the bike has a tendency to break cables.

Oh, yeah.. now I remember that one. I got pretty good at riding home without the clutch. 

[Glawster]

A couple of things to watch out for:  just because there isn't the necessity for high-frequency valve adjustments any more doesn't mean you should skimp on oil & filter change frequency.  The GTs still have a fairly complex OHC drive mechanism to support, using high oil pump (80 PSI) pressure.  Keep the good oil up to it.

Ducati Bevel engines are all ball and roller bearing and the oil pump runs at low pressure.  Only the Mille engine uses plain bearings and runs at high pressure.