Does the degradation of the flat tappets affect emissions?

[canuguzzi]

In have no idea so just asking.

When the flat tappets go south, or north depending on where you are, are the engines exhaust emissions affected? If left unattended since many owners might not be aware of the problem or be unwilling to spend the extra $ between services to find out, would the problem not be covered by the emissions warranty? That warranty, at least in the US extends much father out than the regular warranty.

Might that be an avenue for a fully covered repair? Sometimes there are more ways to skin the cat so to speak.

[rocker59]

LOL!  Always the litigious one...     :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

[canuguzzi]

LOL!  Always the litigious one...     :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

Hardly, my bike has rollers.

Owning a MG isn't a privilege and everyone who bought one new paid good money to get it.

Maybe to you, paying for something and getting something else is a good deal or because it is a moto Guzzi everyone should just suck it up and be happy MG graced them with the opportunity to give them money. When you buy something with a warranty, it wasn't free.

But hey, feel free to chip in for those who face a good sized repair bill. If a warranty of the emissions will cover it, that is called getting what you paid for. It might not be the case but aren't all those owners being told their engines aren't going to go the distance without the fix? Is that what they paid for?

MG isn't a charity nor should anyone feel badly about seeking warranty coverage to fix something that shouldn't need fixing. There is a reason why this problem got shoved out to customers.

[lucian]

I  doubt that tappet failure would negatively effect emissions. Breathing may be slightly diminished , but compression , combustion should remain relatively  unaffected. Until things really go south at which point a roller kit may be of little value. Moral of the story? Don't wait until it shits, rollerize before. At least have a dealer inspect and perhaps you will get the kit pro bono, either way it is worth doing in my opinion. dave

[Wayne Orwig]

Only if it is a diesel.

[Two Checks]

IMO it wouldaffect emissions as the valves may not seat fully or open/close prperly allowing incomplete combustion, etc.
It would NOT b covered under emissions warranty as the valve train is not considered emision control components.

[jas67]

Only if it is a diesel.

D'oh!

He's here all week.    Please tip your waitress.

[Vasco DG]

God's teeth!

[beetle]

[Bill Hagan]

God's teeth!

LOL!  Always the litigious one...     :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu

I think I'll weigh in a bit on the side of the OP -- well other than his preposterous "owning a MG isn't a privilege." 

Bear in mind that I have a FT Griso, and am scheduled to have it "rollerized" in November.  Moreover, as a 2010, I have no reason to complain as [presumably] Piaggio had no reason to know when it was built (or when I bought it November 2011) that its FT's were doomed.

That said, while it may be that the tappets are not part of the longer-warranted emissions system, the climate just now -- so to speak -- is such that such a claim might have traction if raised in the right forum ... and I don't mean tis one! 

For reasons of "standing" mentioned above, I'm not going to raise it, but I can see how other later purchasers might, especially anyone out of warranty but in that gray area after Piaggio continued to sell -- oh, I forgot; they don't sell; try that in a U.S. court.  -- known-to-them flawed machines.

OK, back to my burger.  Kathi's gone for a week, so I can eat what I please ... as long as I am careful not to leave evidence.   

Bill

[beetle]

OK, back to my burger.  Kathi's gone for a week, so I can eat what I please ... as long as I am careful not to leave evidence.   

I'm quoting this so you can't go back and edit out later.   


 

[Vasco DG]

Look, the thing is I think that Piaggio's behaviour in all of this has been pretty damned poor. No argument there and I think they are morally, if not legally obligated to deal with it. But for all of the pompous, sanctimonious asshats who are puffing out their chests and demanding satisfaction just consider this.

By far the easiest and simplest thing for them to do would be to close Guzzi down, sell the, (very valuable.) land on which the factory stands and wash their hands of the whole thing. Not only would that mean nobody would get their bikes fixed but parts would cease to be available to repair them rendering them prematurely obsolete, seventy people and their families would loose their breadwinner job and one more of an increasingly small number of true *Alternatives* to the mainstream, cookie-cutter choice of motorcycles will be gone.

And if a full recall is embarked on, as I feel it should be, are you going to fight just as hard to ensure the people being asked to perform the work are fairly recompensed? No, I didn't think you'd of thought of that. Just for your information any recall or warranty work is *Paid* at about half my hourly rate and it's paid on their book time which is usually hopelessly optimistic. And it isn't even paid. It's just given as a credit against my parts account. I dunno what the situation is in the US but I'd hazard a guess that your dealers take it up the arse the same as we do over here.

I'd be more than willing to cope with that as I care about the marque and I'm lucky enough to have really low overheads and no staff to pay apart from myself, other dealerships are less lucky. But I suppose it doesn't matter if they are ridden into receivership as long as you get what you want.

I currently have three 8V's in my workshop and my garage at home waiting for cam kits, I've got another one coming in next week! We have no ETA for parts. That frustrates me every bit as much as it frustrates the owners but heaven help any owner who starts yelling at me because of this problem!

So in closing perhaps, just perhaps, you could look at the big picture for once rather than just going "Me, Me, Me! Because from my perspective it is selfish and whiney and quite frankly it isn't going to achieve anything good for anybody.

Pete

[Wayne Orwig]

OK, back to my burger.  Kathi's gone for a week, so I can eat what I please ... as long as I am careful not to leave evidence.   

I'm sending her a text about this now.



 

[canuguzzi]

Pretty sure the 8V flat tappet engines were a newly developed engine, at least in that configuration. From what is being said about them, they will all have the problem, not some - all.

It can't be both ways, they will all have failures or only some of them will.

It isn't reasonable to believe that MG didn't know the problem existed and sold them anyway. It would be reasonable to believe that they knew but according to testing, were confident that only some would fail within xx amount of miles or hours of operation and therefore sold them anyway. No matter how well something is built, a percentage will fail and with vehicles the warranties are written to address those percentages likely to fail. Knowing they will all fail however would send the actuaries spinning.

MG didn't rollerize the engines just because, failures likely prompted the redesign. Surely the redesign didn't happen over a few days or weeks otherwise how could they know the update would solve the problem, even in the short run? Significant R&D had to take place for the flat tappet design as well as the roller design.

So we get back to the flat tappet design. MG never tested any of the engines during development more than a few thousand miles or hours equivalent? Nearly impossible to believe. If as has been said over and over, every flat tappet 8v engine will experience the failure, then MG had to know even during a most basic testing that the failures would happen. The tappets are fine one day and fail the next? Isn't it the claim now that the failures begin relatively soon and that evidence of the same can be seen? Then how does even one engine get tested without evidence of the failure? It doesn't happen.

MG must have proof that the failure of the flat tappet failure does not affect every engine. If they have no such proof there is no way to avoid a complete warranty coverage for both inspection, labor and parts since according to some, the failure doesn't take that many hours of operation to show signs of the failure.

As is often the case, the few will initiate the action but you can bet everyone would cash the check.

In any case, one of the warranties will end up covering the failures if as has been said, all flat tappet 8v engines will fail without the roller update.

Should MG decide to avoid a blanket warranty coverage for that specific failure if all 8v flat tappet engines will fail within a relatively few hours of operation then that is just one more reason why so few people want to buy one.

[Vasco DG]

The vast majority of bikes I've seen have all failed somewhere between 30 and 40,000km. In some markets they were failing as low as 5,000. It's NOT consistent.

[Lannis]

By far the easiest and simplest thing for them to do would be to close Guzzi down, sell the, (very valuable.) land on which the factory stands and wash their hands of the whole thing.

That's exactly what BSA did in 1972, 43 years ago.

Not only would that mean nobody would get their bikes fixed but parts would cease to be available to repair them rendering them prematurely obsolete, seventy people and their families would loose their breadwinner job and one more of an increasingly small number of true *Alternatives* to the mainstream, cookie-cutter choice of motorcycles will be gone.

Pete

The unfortunate fact is that 43 years after the Small Heath BSA factory closed its doors and said "Bye", it's easier and cheaper for me to get parts for my 3 oft-ridden BSAs than it is to get parts for my oft-ridden Guzzis.   Even my 60-year-old M21, of which there were VERY few actually sold in the USA, a matter of hundreds.   I can get any part I need for it, can get the carbs, mag, dynamo, and crank rebuilt, and could keep it running forever .... I suspect that if the same happened for Guzzi, the loyal following would "turn to" and come up with something .....

Lannis

[drums4money]

Beetle -
This, my friend, is gold!  With or without flat tappets.

"I am eruditer than you."

[canuguzzi]

The vast majority of bikes I've seen have all failed somewhere between 30 and 40,000km. In some markets they were failing as low as 5,000. It's NOT consistent.

Pete, you might be able to speak better about it,  would  a manufacturer go about designing a new valve train and then not test it to failure? Myself, I can't see that happening but maybe you say different.  Wearing out would be one thing, a failure is different. On a bike with an unlimited mileage warranty, even 40,000 km over 2 years isn't that much anymore. That 25k miles over 2/years used to be quite a bit but not anymore.

Even so, the failure probably starts before that am I correct in thinking that? Someone testing the engine and taking a look would see evidence that not all was going as planned.

Obviously, MG did calculate things quite right as most bikes went out of warranty before this came up so someone was thinking.

When you get right down to it, I imagine that MG can just say it isn't a failure but the flat tappets just wear out around 30-40k kms and that is all there is to it and they will supply roller kits as a good faith gesture.

Maybe that is the way to look at it, not a failure but simply normal wear and tear with the normal for that design being 30-40 thousand kms. If someone managed to wear it out during the warranty period they just fix it. Past that, maybe some good faith kit and that is just it.

When it comes to what is easier though, that old saying about not having whatever to don't right the first time but always enough to do it twice comes around.

The problem was avoidable or at least there was time and resources to mitigate the full effects. Who is going to buy a flat tappet 8V unless it has been updated? As a dealer, would you take one in as trade without discounting for the fix?

So now the poor SOB who might consider a newer model just looks elsewhere. It's shortsighted because it isn't like the market is full of buyers for those bikes anyway. The buyer who hears " I've got the upgrade parts, just haven't installed them" knows what that means. Other than the unknowing, who is going to buy a 8V flat tappet bike without discounting it?

It hurts MG either way and the appearance that the customers got screwed always works out worse than taking care of them.

It isn't the customers fault in any shape or form, no matter what they might do to fix it.

Were MG to ever fold up, it won't be because someone or some group if someones wanted a failure fixed, it will be because MG didn't fix it and casting even a sliver of blame at anyone else isn't justified.

[Vasco DG]

When the engine was first built it had chilled cast iron tappets and was tested pretty extensively both on the bench and on the road with pics of prototypes appearing in the press for well over a year before the launch of the Griso. Presumably they didn't fail during testing. It was only when models started shitting themselves in the public domain that things started to happen. It was pretty obvious that nobody at the factory had any idea what was causing the issue but first the changes to valve clearances and then the change to steel tappets with DLC were obvious attempts to address the problem. Whether the shimming of the cams for end float was connected or simply a noise abatement move I really don't know.

What really galls me is the fact that they obviously knew they weren't going to get the flat tappet system reliable and had the cure designed but not ready to install by the middle of 2010 at the latest but continued to sell machines that they seemingly knew were going to fail but started adding the spring shims to new bikes, not for the owners' sakes but simply to minimise cost to themselves down the track. What a piss-poor attitude.

Pete

[tris]

When the engine was first built it had chilled cast iron tappets and was tested pretty extensively both on the bench and on the road with pics of prototypes appearing in the press for well over a year before the launch of the Griso. Presumably they didn't fail during testing. It was only when models started shitting themselves in the public domain that things started to happen. It was pretty obvious that nobody at the factory had any idea what was causing the issue but first the changes to valve clearances and then the change to steel tappets with DLC were obvious attempts to address the problem. Whether the shimming of the cams for end float was connected or simply a noise abatement move I really don't know.

What really galls me is the fact that they obviously knew they weren't going to get the flat tappet system reliable and had the cure designed but not ready to install by the middle of 2010 at the latest but continued to sell machines that they seemingly knew were going to fail but started adding the spring shims to new bikes, not for the owners' sakes but simply to minimise cost to themselves down the track. What a piss-poor attitude.

Pete

Probably too late now, but it does make me wonder if the law of "Latent Defect" would apply the those who bought them new
 http://www.out-law.com/en/topics/projects--construction/construction-claims/limitation-periods-under-english-law/

[Two Checks]

Don't forget our all knowing gummint mandated the reduction of ZDDP (zinc) in oils. This has led to failures of engines during break in, hence the offering of break in additives being offered. Once those flat lifters start wearing due to the reduced zinc content they are toast. Zinc is the last defense in metal to metal content. Oil makers increased moly content totry to compensate, but that doesn't work and it created more problems like slipping clutches in wet clutch engines.

[canuguzzi]

When referring to "chilled" would that be some sort of cryogenic cooling after the parts were made or is it some other process? I'm curious because my understanding is that using cryogenics does affect the dimensions of the part and would that account for the change in the clearances?

Heck, they sent spacecraft to Mars and forgot to convert from metrics or something like that so maybe the change in part dimensions from the chilling was forgotten?

Honda never did figure out why cams failed on the early V4s. Even though some forum group members devised lubrication systems thinking that would fix it, some failed regardless. There wasn't enough of a teat base to prove beyond doubt one way or the other.

A test rider explained in some detail how Honda tested bikes to ascertain the reliability of the engines and claimed that not a single V4 had a cam failure and that the determined cause was lugging the engine.

After the redesign the V4 became some of the most reliable engines they ever made.

Perhaps the roller version of the 8V will be the same, bullet proof.

[Xlratr]

Life can be tough for a niche brand manufacturer.

Because MG  production numbers are small, I guess they really need to earn around $2000 more on a Stelvio than BMW does on a GS to have the same return. If they ask for that, you’ll say they “don’t understand the market reality” and wait for the dealer to discount it.

They’re under pressure to develop new engines, from buyers and law makers, again on a much smaller budget than the big manufacturers. When something goes wrong, you’ll say why don’t they make lower powered less stressed bikes. They “don’t understand the market reality”.

If they make lower powered less stressed bikes, you’ll say they’re not competitive and they “don’t understand the market reality”.

If they don’t have enough dealers or the brand isn’t present enough, you’ll say they should invest $50mio in advertising and dealer expansion. And then when Piaggio pulls the plug because the return isn’t there, you say they “don’t understand the market reality”.

It’s a long haul, but all they can do is try and make the best possible products for their target market. And I do believe, despite the occasional mishap (which can happen anywhere), that they do try to build the best bike they realistically can. Why wouldn’t they? I don’t believe anybody at the factory is laughing in their espressos about this as someone said. The fact that we have the third tappet solution is to me an indication of that. Honestly, with the financial restrictions they must surely have, I think it’s amazing that we get the quality of bikes we do.

When I bought the Stelvio I of course expected a good bike, but with a niche manufacture there’s always a chance that something might go wrong. OK, it has happened, and it’s now fixed. And it’s now back to being the wonderful bike I love and that I wouldn’t swap for any other.
No, I’m not happy that I had to fix it or about the cost, and I would have appreciated a different approach to pre-emptive roller conversions, but I can accept that "stuff happens" and I have better things to do than lament about how MG has shafted me. Feel free to call me a fool for sucking it up.

John
I’m having a bad day. Who can I sue?

[pauldaytona]

When I bought my stelvio new in may 2009, it already had an recall of the tappets. So in only a year after they came on the road they knew there was a problem. That was solved[NOT] by changing cam and tappets each time. I lost count of the partnumbers that there have been for the tappets and cams. And each time they promised it was solved.

I think Piaggio should repair all failures, without costs for the owner regardless of service history.
But such things cost money, and it can be that they have an insurrance for these things that pays only when it is the way it is.

Remember that they recalled all stelvio for a new main stand. Somehow have the few broken stands made such an impact that they decided to recall all. 

[molly]

You could argue Moto Guzzi have moved on from the flat tappet problem. None of the current model range is affected and there is a remedy available, albeit  in some cases at the customer's expense. Which compared to the depreciation values on certain VW models at the moment is relatively cheap.
Probably in five years time assuming they score no more own goals the early 8v motors will be no more than a mute talking point among the aficionados.
Having said that I feel the pain of those paying through the nose  for rollers and narrowly avoided being in the same boat myself.

[pauldaytona]

The costs are within a normal Ducati service. But Guzzi people are cheap.

[molly]

The costs are within a normal Ducati service. But Guzzi people are cheap.

You are right Paul Guzzis tend to appeal to people that like to do their own servicing, which obviously saves them money so any extra cost is a big thing.
 I'm dreading the 12,000 miles valve clearance check on my Triumph Tiger Sport. How the mechanics remember how to get the plastic off  each different  model before they even  start work is a mystery to me. I will try to do most of the service items myself but expect to pay around �400 for what's left. My 1200 2v Guzzi motor costs me peanuts to look after.

[kevdog3019]

Did George Carlin ever point out the irony of pro biz crowd willing to go after them for wrong-doing and anti-biz crowd willing to let them get away with shit for the good of the company. Hmmm... do we have things backward??  Lest we forget that the evil dude at the helm of the motor company making boat loads of $$ is looking at this laughing at those showing such heart as to not hurt the little worker.  WHat about all the little guys out there with these issues to spring for??  What is the big picture here? 

Sometimes I take a little different look at things.

[Aaron D.]

Don't forget our all knowing gummint mandated the reduction of ZDDP (zinc) in oils. This has led to failures of engines during break in, hence the offering of break in additives being offered. Once those flat lifters start wearing due to the reduced zinc content they are toast. Zinc is the last defense in metal to metal content. Oil makers increased moly content totry to compensate, but that doesn't work and it created more problems like slipping clutches in wet clutch engines.

If the DLC couldn't handle the load I doubt the ZDDP would have helped. Besides, still lots of engines happily running with flat tappets. Heck you can still buy ZDDP heavy oils.

[Two Checks]

Zinc and moly have different properties. The moly doesn't work as well. The problem with the wear is on initial break in. Once the initial damage is done the parts quickly fail.
Yes, there are oils with more zinc than others but the EPA limits the amount and it is lower than oils of the past. When the nre oils came out engine builders were using the new oils and suffering engine failure on the dyno. Inspection showed lubrication failure.
Go to your Chevy dealer and buy an engine. It will come with a container of break in additive. The stuff is heavy in zinc.
Race engine shops use the stuff. Once the break in is complete use your favorite oil.