Author Topic: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves  (Read 1166 times)

Online skippy

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Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« on: February 03, 2021, 04:24:18 PM »
I am with Huzo on the need for better timing control on the 2 valve big block motors. I certainly would like to go with a set of gears but alas no one seems to make such a critter specifically for the big blocks after the late 90's.
So the next best thing is some sort of an improvement on that tiny little pawl the factory installed on our motors. I admire Huzo for fitting a Valtech on his motor and all of the effort it required.
Have any of you given one of these a try?
 https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2386

Looks like the cats meow.

Skippy
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Online lucian

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2021, 04:41:34 PM »
That's the one you want. basically the same as the Valtec with a different mounting arrangement.  :thumb:

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2021, 05:11:30 PM »
Joe Caruso could most likely make a set of gears for you.
https://woodburymotomedia.com/moto-guzzi-timing-gears-by-joe-caruso/
Charlie
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Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2021, 06:05:35 PM »
Joe Caruso could most likely make a set of gears for you.
https://woodburymotomedia.com/moto-guzzi-timing-gears-by-joe-caruso/
Iíve been talking to him today and he is currently dormant, but he is ďgearing upĒ to recommence as soon as COVID restrictions allow.
My set for the Norge are on the books.

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2021, 06:05:35 PM »

Online skippy

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2021, 11:40:09 AM »
Iíve been talking to him today and he is currently dormant, but he is ďgearing upĒ to recommence as soon as COVID restrictions allow.
My set for the Norge are on the books.

Looks like Huzo will get the first set of gears Down Under and I will have the next set out here in Colorado.

I have been in communication with Joe over the last few days trying to figure out which of the four cam gears I have on my bike. Based on engine number it looks like the same one Huzo (and all subsequent 2 valve motors) has.

I will open up my timing chest here in the near future just to double check.

I know this is the pricy way to go but what the heck.

Skippy
06 1100 Breva
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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2021, 12:57:15 PM »
I am going into mine today, to check that the work I did has stood up to the last 10,000 k.
Iíll photograph everything in there. I was moved to install the better tensioner as much for the noise reduction as
anything else.
https://youtu.be/C3wsYLPEoYA
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 12:59:34 PM by Huzo »

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2021, 01:12:16 PM »
Looks like Huzo will get the first set of gears Down Under and I will have the next set out here in Colorado.

I have been in communication with Joe over the last few days trying to figure out which of the four cam gears I have on my bike. Based on engine number it looks like the same one Huzo (and all subsequent 2 valve motors) has.

I will open up my timing chest here in the near future just to double check.

I know this is the pricy way to go but what the heck.

Skippy
I take the forks out of mine every 20,000 k to empty and flush them. It is just so much more accessible with the front end off and it is almost due now..
So ďhold my hand Nurse, Iím going in for a look..Ē

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2021, 05:39:11 PM »
Well it took 2 hrs to get this far..





This modification has around 10,000 k and has shown itself to be an ok thing to do.
Absolutely no deterioration of the mechanicals and not really very hard in retrospect.
BTW..
The timing is not out, itís just stopped at this point.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2021, 05:41:35 PM by Huzo »

Online lucian

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2021, 06:20:05 PM »
Nice work, two hours  :thumb:  Feel better now about stuffing one of those blades in my 850.  As much as a gear set is a sexy alternative, I think  I can live with the chain and I actually like the mechanical noises , as long as they are supposed to be there.  Curious how the blade face wears in.Have you had a look?  I envision three grooves from the chain link plates.

Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2021, 07:30:16 PM »
Nice work, two hours  :thumb:  Feel better now about stuffing one of those blades in my 850.  As much as a gear set is a sexy alternative, I think  I can live with the chain and I actually like the mechanical noises , as long as they are supposed to be there.  Curious how the blade face wears in.Have you had a look?  I envision three grooves from the chain link plates.
I was going to check that as a priority, but it involves removing the blade or hyper flexing it for the examination.
I felt it was a bridge too far.

Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2021, 06:13:58 AM »
I noticed a strange thing..
If you look at the spring in this shot



Youíll notice that the bottom coil is able to touch the casing and indeed there was a small mark where it may have been.
I took the blade out and reversed the spring to give more clearance.



Online lucian

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2021, 08:56:19 AM »
So, any discernible wear on the blade?  :popcorn:

Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2021, 09:42:14 AM »
So, any discernible wear on the blade?  :popcorn:
No mate.
Light witness marking, but virtually none.

Online PJPR01

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2021, 10:07:01 PM »
Huzo...how did you know that this was an issue to be addressed?  Was it by sound or feel or something else that suggested the tensioner needed replacing?

Wondering if I need to bookmark this and add it to my future 100K mileage check at some point in the far future.
Paul R
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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2021, 02:15:28 AM »
Huzo...how did you know that this was an issue to be addressed?  Was it by sound or feel or something else that suggested the tensioner needed replacing?

Wondering if I need to bookmark this and add it to my future 100K mileage check at some point in the far future.
There was a persistent cacophony of sound in the lower timing chest area that I did not know how to pinpoint.
Also I had opened the chest to install a new chain pre emptively at 180,000 k.
It was then that I discovered the feebleness of the standard tensioner and when I found that it was only the casting lump in my way, I rang Pete and he said there was nothing preventing itís removal and subsequent installation of the Valtek.
Bang...!

Online PJPR01

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2021, 09:11:41 AM »
Time to break out the stethoscope then...good to know!
Paul R
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2008 Silver Norge
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Online skippy

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2021, 02:19:31 PM »
Looks like Huzo will get the first set of gears Down Under and I will have the next set out here in Colorado.

I have been in communication with Joe over the last few days trying to figure out which of the four cam gears I have on my bike. Based on engine number it looks like the same one Huzo (and all subsequent 2 valve motors) has.

I will open up my timing chest here in the near future just to double check.

I know this is the pricy way to go but what the heck.

Skippy

I conversed with Joe Caruso today to get an update on the gears he has in production. Due to a backlog and such, they are slightly delayed but are getting close. Joe indicated that they should be ready early next month.

Joe also mentioned that he is producing three sets at this time. One for Huzo, one for me, and one just because. So if anyone else here is interested in a set that fits 2-valve Norge/ late generation 2-valve Breva's there is an other set available.

Skippy


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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2021, 03:34:06 PM »
I will get the new bronze bush that sits behind the camshaft to control the end float as well.

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2021, 04:00:26 PM »
I just got an e mail from Joe this morning.
Things are on the go..

Offline LesP

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2021, 04:04:32 PM »
The parts I removed (Loop) showed wear to both the thrust face on the back of the sprocket and the bronze thrust plate, maybe it was from the cylinders chrome bore break down, who knows.
I tool post ground the sprocket face and modified the plate for possible better lubrication.

If you have 100's of thousands of kilometres then I might have just lightened that new one by a few grams only if it is the same part.










Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2021, 07:24:19 PM »
Well that's one way of doing it, albeit the complex way. Here's what the later Guzzi version looks like, on the right. I either use this type or modify the old style the same way.

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_camshaft_thrust_plate_-12054000-.html

Ciao
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2021, 08:24:21 PM »
Well I guess you could say itís complicated but not if you know what youíre doing.
Les P.
I was going to bolt mine to the faceplate of the lathe and take a lick off to rejuvenate it. Would the re hashed bush need shimming back out to the original position or a couple of thouí would be of no consequence ?
That question will be immediately answered as soon as I have it in my paws.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 08:30:24 PM by Huzo »

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2021, 02:30:02 AM »
Well I guess you could say itís complicated but not if you know what youíre doing.
Les P.
I was going to bolt mine to the faceplate of the lathe and take a lick off to rejuvenate it. Would the re hashed bush need shimming back out to the original position or a couple of thouí would be of no consequence ?
That question will be immediately answered as soon as I have it in my paws.

The best solution is generally the simplest, and the factory solution looks the simplest to me. Nothing to do with "knowing what your doing". Of course LesP has done a nice job of it just not required and the factory solution can be applied with hand tools if you have an old one or new pre mod one you want to modify.
At what 200,000klm? it will probably be worn .4 or .5. I'd imagine from previous experience. To much to clean up on the trust face as the cam end float will be too great and shimming the retainer off the cases to compensate I wouldn't recommend.

Ciao
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 02:55:09 AM by lucky phil »
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2021, 02:37:49 AM »
No Phil.
I guess not.

Offline LesP

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2021, 04:09:36 AM »
The best solution is generally the simplest, and the factory solution looks the simplest to me. Nothing to do with "knowing what your doing". Of course LesP has done a nice job of it just not required and the factory solution can be applied with hand tools if you have an old one or new pre mod one you want to modify.
At what 200,000klm? it will probably be worn .4 or .5. I'd imagine from previous experience. To much to clean up on the trust face as the cam end float will be too great and shimming the retainer off the cases to compensate I wouldn't recommend.

Ciao

If you mean the mod where a few channels are ground radially across the face which end up being bleeds, no thanks and the reason I made channels that did not exit at the OD but became pockets fed from the cam tunnel pressure feed.
Restricted bleed at the OD of the plate with the pockets is retained. (but not really applicable with hand tools)


« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 04:13:36 AM by LesP »
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline LesP

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2021, 04:16:51 AM »
Well that's one way of doing it, albeit the complex way. Here's what the later Guzzi version looks like, on the right. I either use this type or modify the old style the same way.

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_camshaft_thrust_plate_-12054000-.html

Ciao

Yes I saw that long ago and hit the back button, rejected it as per the post above.
I put it in the same basket as the folk who install a hose clamp due to the to short oil filter threaded spigot.
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Offline LesP

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2021, 04:20:30 AM »
Well I guess you could say itís complicated but not if you know what youíre doing.
Les P.
I was going to bolt mine to the faceplate of the lathe and take a lick off to rejuvenate it. Would the re hashed bush need shimming back out to the original position or a couple of thouí would be of no consequence ?
That question will be immediately answered as soon as I have it in my paws.

As Phil posted it would increase end float clearance, I replaced everything because of chrome damage from the cylinders, that plate was not to expensive. (The camshaft was a later model NOS item also)
The engine is very quiet running overall.
Donor 16/17/18/19/20 maybe more.

Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2021, 04:37:10 AM »
As Phil posted it would increase end float clearance, I replaced everything because of chrome damage from the cylinders, that plate was not to expensive. (The camshaft was a later model NOS item also)
The engine is very quiet running overall.
Yes, as mentioned Joe can and will supply a new one with the gears and thatís what Iíll do in all likelihood.
Iíve indicated as much to him today.

Online skippy

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #28 on: Today at 04:42:56 AM »
Well folks, the deed is done. I received the gears from Joe Caruso last Thursday and had them installed by Friday afternoon.  :thumb:

I am impressed by the overall quality of the gears and am especially impressed with precision they are manufactured to.

I have ridden the bike about 150 mile since the install and am happy with the results. At idle their is only a faint whirring sound that one would expect from a set of straight cut gears. Once underway and at speed the motor is substantially quieter than before sounding like a sewing machine humming along. No more of the racket from the chain slapping around against the original tensioner.

In my mind this whole little project was well worth the time and expense.

Skippy

06 1100 Breva
20 V85TT

Online Huzo

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Re: Timing Chain Tensioner CARC 2 Valves
« Reply #29 on: Today at 04:56:11 AM »
Well folks, the deed is done. I received the gears from Joe Caruso last Thursday and had them installed by Friday afternoon.  :thumb:

I am impressed by the overall quality of the gears and am especially impressed with precision they are manufactured to.

I have ridden the bike about 150 mile since the install and am happy with the results. At idle their is only a faint whirring sound that one would expect from a set of straight cut gears. Once underway and at speed the motor is substantially quieter than before sounding like a sewing machine humming along. No more of the racket from the chain slapping around against the original tensioner.

In my mind this whole little project was well worth the time and expense.

Skippy
Have not installed mine yet, but will do so when I get back from my trip.
Was the lash in gears about right ?

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