Author Topic: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!  (Read 46754 times)

Offline smdl

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Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« on: June 14, 2015, 06:46:04 PM »
About a month ago, I was on a day ride will my Ontario Guzzi Riders friends, and experienced a problem on the ride home, where the bike (2012 Stelvio NTX) wouldn't re-start after stopping at the gas station.  I knew it wasn't Startus Interruptus, as I had just installed the fix the night before so I wouldn't get stuck out of town by that problem.   :rolleyes:  *sigh* The problem really pointed to a starter issue, but I decided to replace the battery, regardless, as I wanted one that was completely sealed in order to avoid the known leaking acid issue.  As expected, this did not have any impact, and the problem remained with symptoms of a loud CLACK, and so much draw that it would actually kill the dash when I pressed the start button.

So, expecting the problem to be with the starter, I took a few minutes to get that out, and found that there was a piece of metal jammed in the drive gear, and evidence of the metal banging around in there an marking up the soft aluminum snout of the starter housing.  The metal appeared to be part of a thrust washer/spacer that seemed to be missing from the drive gear shaft.  Unfortunately, the metal piece pinged off into the distance when I removed it, so I couldn't take a closer look.  It didn't appear that the there was anything still in the area of the starter, so I hoped that I had got all the metal out, and took the starter to an auto electric guy locally.  He took about a teaspoon of aluminum shavings (from the metal bouncing around) out of the starter, serviced it, and proclaimed it beaten up, but functionally as good as new.  So, it went back in a few weeks ago, and has worked flawlessly... until yesterday.

I arrived home after a 650km ride on the Eldo to see Nick949, and decided to jump on the Stelvio for a quick fuel-up and test of a new ECU map.  Bike ran great all the way there and back, but when I re-started to move it back into the garage, you guessed it, [CLACK!] and nothing.  So, I took it apart again today, and was amazed to find the snout of the starter even more beat up than before!!



Yep, I again found a piece of metal jammed in the drive gear that looked very much like the one I found in there before.  Now, wanting to ensure that I had absolutely EVERYTHING foreign out of the bellhousing, I used a magnet with a flexible shaft to reach down in there, and immediately pulled out several pieces of metal that make up some sort of round-section rings:



That's a Canadian Loonie and a US quarter to indicate scale. 

Between what I have here, and the piece that came out before, I'm pretty confident that I now have the two complete rings accounted for, but now a bigger question looms.  What the heck are these things??  Equally as important, where did they come from?  I know that someone has had the starter out in the past looking in to see if everything looked okay in there, as the previous owner told me that this was done when looking into the infamous Stelvio "clutch groan" issue (which I have never heard since I purchased it).  Is it possible that they simply dropped something inside there by accident?  Two separate rings?  Or is something disintegrating inside there, and can I expect more of these rings to start flying around in there?  Could these possibly be part of the clutch, or?   :shocked: 

I REALLY don't want to have to pull the gearbox out, but will if needed.  I do want to remove the swingarm for greasing, regardless, so I will be part way there.

Any thoughts about what these might be from would be very much appreciated.

Cheers,
Shaun

PS:   I have rotated the engine 360 degrees, and have confirmed that all teeth are intact, thankfully.  I will get the starter looked at again, but might just purchase a Valeo and keep this one as a spare.  It looks like it's been through a war!

« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 07:00:14 PM by smdl »
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Offline Sasquatch Jim

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2015, 06:57:49 PM »
 Very simple diagnosis, it's broke.  Get a new starter and before you put it in, check the condition of the teeth on the flywheel that the starter engages.
Sasquatch Jim        Humanoid, sort of.

Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2015, 07:04:00 PM »
Very simple diagnosis, it's broke.  Get a new starter and before you put it in, check the condition of the teeth on the flywheel that the starter engages.

Thanks, Jim, but what is broke?  What are these rings from?  I don't want to replace the starter just to have it damaged by more of the same.

Shaun
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2015, 07:07:25 PM »
The smaller one looks about right for the retainer ring on the starter shaft.  You might take the starter apart and see if there's one or more empty grooves on the shaft.
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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2015, 07:07:25 PM »

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2015, 07:10:21 PM »
My guess is that at least one of them is part of the anti-rattle/shock absorber springs in the Center of the friction plate.

Sorry, but the gearbox will have to come off you can't just hope you've got all the bits out, something is disintegrating in there big time. S'gottabee fixed!

Pete

Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2015, 07:22:04 PM »
The smaller one looks about right for the retainer ring on the starter shaft.  You might take the starter apart and see if there's one or more empty grooves on the shaft.

Thanks, Jim.  That's exactly what I believed it was when I pulled the starter the first time.  The auto electric guy felt so, too, but indicated it wasn't very important. 

Shaun
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Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2015, 07:25:03 PM »
My guess is that at least one of them is part of the anti-rattle/shock absorber springs in the Center of the friction plate.

Sorry, but the gearbox will have to come off you can't just hope you've got all the bits out, something is disintegrating in there big time. S'gottabee fixed!

Pete

Thanks, Pete.  That's what I was worried about.  Only 2.5 months off warranty, as well. 

Oh, well, as you say, there's no avoiding it.  Any tips on the easiest way to go about removing the gearbox on one of these beasts?

Cheers,
Shaun
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Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2015, 07:33:53 PM »
Looking at this more closely, I'm afraid that Pete is likely correct:



I wonder if one of the springs came apart first, then got tossed around and damaged the retainer ring?  Suppose it doesn't really matter which was first, though.

Shaun
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 07:37:31 PM by smdl »
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Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2015, 07:44:57 PM »
If the small one is from the starter, I doubt if it could have hurt the big springs, but big chunks of one of those springs could have done (probably did) a lot of damage.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 07:45:11 PM by Triple Jim »
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2015, 07:51:56 PM »
Thanks, Pete.  That's what I was worried about.  Only 2.5 months off warranty, as well. 

Oh, well, as you say, there's no avoiding it.  Any tips on the easiest way to go about removing the gearbox on one of these beasts?

Cheers,
Shaun

Wayne Orwig has done that job and described it for his Stelvio.

I blacked out in terror half-way through reading it.

Lannis
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Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2015, 07:58:15 PM »
Wayne Orwig has done that job and described it for his Stelvio.

I blacked out in terror half-way through reading it.

Lannis

Hmmm, reassuring.  Do you know if Wayne had a thread going on it?

Thanks,
Shaun
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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2015, 08:09:27 PM »
Sorry to tell you this but getting the gearbox out of a Stelvio is an absolute sod of a job. Of all of the modern bikes it has the most crap that has to be removed and the most awkward angles and dangles to get around to get the motive unit in and out. Be prepared to curse a lot! I did. Betcha Wayne did and I'll even hazard a guess that Phang and his mate did! :laugh:

Pete

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2015, 08:09:48 PM »
Yep, looks like you had a spring come out of the clutch for some odd reason.

Not sure I really did a write up when I dropped the motor, maybe I did. Nothing special, just work. I remember that the engine vent housing on the left would catch on the frame when I tried to drop the engine. So I was doing something wrong there. And I borrowed an alignment tool for the clutch, but I'm not sure it was really needed.

Looks like the front wheel and headlights are about all that stay in place.  :boozing:

« Last Edit: June 14, 2015, 08:16:34 PM by Wayne Orwig »
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Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2015, 08:21:52 PM »
Ugh, you guys are just full of good news!   :sad:  So, it sounds like I can't just take the gearbox out by itself?  Well, I guess I'll start going through the manual...

With the 750S tribute just starting to come together, the Eldo needing some attention to the rear main seal, and the Stelvio about to go to pieces, I'll soon have three of four spread around the shop.  Maybe I need to get another one so I'll be sure I always have a couple of spares running at any given time!

Cheers,
Shaun
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Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2015, 08:27:24 PM »
Yep, looks like you had a spring come out of the clutch for some odd reason.

Not sure I really did a write up when I dropped the motor, maybe I did. Nothing special, just work. I remember that the engine vent housing on the left would catch on the frame when I tried to drop the engine. So I was doing something wrong there. And I borrowed an alignment tool for the clutch, but I'm not sure it was really needed.

Looks like the front wheel and headlights are about all that stay in place.  :boozing:



Thanks for adding the picture, Wayne.  I can now see that I am going to need to rig some sort of a sling from the ceiling... so I can HANG MYSELF!!!  :shocked:

Well, I guess this will give me a good opportunity to go through the bike and make sure that everything is well lubricated, etc.

Cheers,
Shaun


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Online Cam3512

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2015, 08:27:58 PM »
Taking it apart is a hell of alot easier than putting that mess back together!

Good luck.
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Offline Kent in Upstate NY

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2015, 08:31:23 PM »
Take it to a dealer and try for a warranty fix. Then, get a lawyer. Couldn't hurt.
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Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2015, 08:37:17 PM »
Taking it apart is a hell of alot easier than putting that mess back together!

Good luck.

Good point.  I could take the Wile E. Coyote route:  Use dynamite to get it apart.  I'll probably have as much fun getting it back together as if I use wrenches...

 :grin:

Shaun
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Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2015, 08:44:50 PM »
Take it to a dealer and try for a warranty fix. Then, get a lawyer. Couldn't hurt.

Thanks, Kent.  Although I don't entirely disagree with the sentiment, that's not really my way.  Being the eternal optimist, I'll look at this as an opportunity to get to know the bike really well.  Just think how well-prepared I will be should something go wrong in future?   :rolleyes:

For those who may need to follow, I will plan to take pictures as I go.  I might actually post them, too, if I get it back together and find that it actually works...

Cheers,
Shaun
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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2015, 08:56:07 PM »
Shaun, as you can see you can actually leave the throttlebodies and manifolds attatched to the airbox and then either lift the frame up or lower the bench with the engine on it.

The biggest embuggerance to my mind with the Stelvio is that you have to do all this buggering about removing lots of little plates, brackets and hangars to get t'other point where you can actually drop the donk out of the frame.

Make sure as well you disconnect all of the wires to sensors, alternator, neutral light etc. they're a PITA too.

Pete

Offline Kent in Upstate NY

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2015, 08:58:16 PM »
Ask the dealer. You never know. There are times when it is nice to know the bike really well. 2 1/2 months out of warranty is not it.
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Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2015, 09:23:19 PM »
Shaun, as you can see you can actually leave the throttlebodies and manifolds attatched to the airbox and then either lift the frame up or lower the bench with the engine on it.

The biggest embuggerance to my mind with the Stelvio is that you have to do all this buggering about removing lots of little plates, brackets and hangars to get t'other point where you can actually drop the donk out of the frame.

Make sure as well you disconnect all of the wires to sensors, alternator, neutral light etc. they're a PITA too.

Pete

Thanks, Pete.  Looks like I can leave the front engine mounts attached (but loose) so they can act as a pivot point? 

Anything else I should consider doing when I've got it all apart?  I know about greasing the swingarm bearings, and doing this work will address some of the other items, like ensuring that the upper engine mounts are tight (with thread locker).  I'll also be leveraging this opportunity to install my new lowered shock, and have a spare side stand that I will modify to suit.  I'd really like to look at any other known issues while in there.

Barring any actual physical damage to other components, is it always necessary/recommended to replace/machine pressure plate, flywheel, etc., or should I be okay with just the friction plate?  Bike has just under 30,000km.

Thanks,
Shaun


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Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2015, 09:25:00 PM »
Ask the dealer. You never know. There are times when it is nice to know the bike really well. 2 1/2 months out of warranty is not it.

Yes, I'll chat with the dealer.  Not sure to what effect, but it's always a discussion worth having.

Thanks,
Shaun
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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2015, 09:41:33 PM »
Damn,  that is a tough break Shaun, good luck with the dealer, hopefully they will at least cover the parts.

Jim

Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2015, 09:54:02 PM »
Hi, Jim.

C'est la vie!  No use getting bent out of shape over it.  Just in case, I guess I'd better go read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...

Cheers,
Shaun

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Offline Phang

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2015, 10:09:08 PM »
Be prepared to curse a lot! I did. Betcha Wayne did and I'll even hazard a guess that Phang and his mate did! :laugh:

Pete

I believe the Stelvio engine dropping exercise earned lots of curse in many languages, recently added some in Chinese dialects  :violent1:

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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2015, 10:09:27 PM »
C'est la vie!  No use getting bent out of shape over it.  Just in case, I guess I'd better go read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance...


 :1:

Good reason to bond with the bike.  :laugh:
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Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2015, 10:42:26 PM »
Hoo boy, this sounds like it's going to be fun.  Good thing I have lots of spare time to work on projects like this.   :rolleyes:  It's also a good thing that I bought a reliable new-ish bike so I will always be able to ride it while I'm working on my unreliable older bikes...   :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 :grin:

I see in the manual that a "centering tool" is indicated, but it looks like that won't be needed unless I need to actually remove the pressure plate?  Hopefully, if all looks good when I get in there, and the friction plate is all that's needed, I won't have to worry about that.  Or am I deluding myself?

Cheers,
Shaun
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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2015, 10:49:28 PM »
No, the tool isn't needed, nor does it really center the friction plate. To be honest I'm a bit baffled as to what it's purpose actually is :rolleyes:. The way I do it is to loosely bolt on the pressure plate so the friction plate can still move then mount the box and push it home. Then I remove it again and tighten down the pressure plate and finish reassembling the rest of the clutch. That way the box just slips back in like pushing a greasy stick up a dog's bum.

Pete

Offline smdl

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Re: Horrors in My Bellhousing!!
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2015, 10:53:39 PM »
No, the tool isn't needed, nor does it really center the friction plate. To be honest I'm a bit baffled as to what it's purpose actually is :rolleyes:. The way I do it is to loosely bolt on the pressure plate so the friction plate can still move then mount the box and push it home. Then I remove it again and tighten down the pressure plate and finish reassembling the rest of the clutch. That way the box just slips back in like pushing a greasy stick up a dog's bum.

Pete

Thanks, Pete.  You do, erm, have a way with words that is quite unlike anyone else I have encountered.  Hope you never change.   :grin:

Shaun
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