Horrors in My Bellhousing!!

[canuguzzi]

Not very many and not nearly enough but the bike is, as Shaun stated, out of warranty. Now I know there are people who seem to believe that a warranty should, essentially, be eternal but the simple fact is there does have to be a cut-off point and this machine was outside it.

Shaun has done exactly what I think is right. No pissing and moaning! Just hook in and fix it. If anything is going to piss me off its people moaning that 'The Factory' or 'The Dealer' should look after it. It's out of bloody warranty! Suck it up!

Pete

No pissing or moaning, just curiosity since it seems like a rather serious failure. The question was just asked to keep a mental note as miles pile up so that should something remotely similar seem to take place, perhaps delve deeper and save some trouble. I learned something through this thread and like the owner, might have passed something like this off as not so serious, something I wouldn't do now having the information.

[smdl]

Hi, folks.

The bike currently has 29,398 kms or 18,267 miles.

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

Hi, folks.

Just back from some travel, and am getting back into my clutch repair.  Parts came in just before I went away, and there was an interesting drawing included in the box:



This assembly in the newest version that is from the Cal 14, and has a part number of 2A000107, not 2A000108, as indicated on the drawing.  I can't find the 108 number doing an internet search, but can only assume that it is a very similar clutch package, and that this drawing apples equally to this one.   

Bottom line is that it seems strange to not use a locking device on the flywheel bolts, but it seems pretty clear that the factory is specifying this.  I will certainly use thread locker regardless, so I sure hope it will stay on there!

Never boring, working on Guzzis!   

Cheers,
Shaun

 

[Chuck in Indiana]

Not to worry. 

[Vasco DG]

Well, it's fairly clear innit?

I honestly can't remember if the ones I've done had washers or not? Certainly the bolts had a flange under the head to spread the load. It could just be that if a washer is used the heads of the bolts foul the plate or some such. Who knows? Definitely no washer though. I always use a drop of 243 on these.

Pete

[smdl]

Well, it's fairly clear innit?

I honestly can't remember if the ones I've done had washers or not? Certainly the bolts had a flange under the head to spread the load. It could just be that if a washer is used the heads of the bolts foul the plate or some such. Who knows? Definitely no washer though. I always use a drop of 243 on these.

Pete

Yep, clear as mud!   

Well, the flywheel is on, and I hope that I have it oriented correctly.  They keep mentioning a "reference", but don't really tell you what the "reference" looks like on this one.  There was a dab of blue-green paint on the back of the "clutch disc" (which is NOT the friction disk), so I assumed that this was the "reference".  Not very clear at all, though, and it does not align exactly with one of the bolt holes, so it doesn't end up aligned perfectly with the crankpin.  If anyone has a more clear understanding of this, please do feel free to offer advice!

The outer piece, which I believe they call the pressure plate has a pretty clear reference mark, so I should be good there. 

Next, I need to figure out how to take the clutch pushrod out so I can measure for the proper length of rod.  Probably should change out the "clutch drum" (bellhousing) first, though. 

Cheers,
Shaun

[HDGoose]

Hi, folks.

The bike currently has 29,398 kms or 18,267 miles.

Cheers,
Shaun

At that mileage they should be barely broken in, not fairly broken down.

[smdl]

At that mileage they should be barely broken in, not fairly broken down.

Agreed, but there is a known issue with friction discs on Stelvios produced around the time mine was.  Unfortunate, but it is what it is.

Shaun

[smdl]

Okay, have got back into the repair finally, after getting (somewhat) caught up at work, and beginning to recover from jetlag.    Unfortunately, I've now come to a few realizations:

1.   I missed ordering a part that I need, so will get that ordered tomorrow. 
2.   Pete's gearbox tools arrived early this week (thanks Pete), and in studying them, it seems that "Plan A" might not work.  I had hoped to remove only the bellhousing from the gearbox, leaving everything else intact.  Unfortunately, the pullers are designed to remove the rear of the gearbox, leaving all the shafts attached to, you guessed it, the bellhousing!  So, it looks like the unit will be coming right apart, but I am hopeful that I can remove all the guts from the old bellhousing, and simply move them all together to the new one.  the manual suggests using rubber bands to keep the whole mess together as you pull it out, so that is the tactic I am planning to use.
3.   It's a really good thing that I decided to replace the bellhousing.  Looking at the new one, I can see that the flying shrapnel had milled a groove almost completely through the boss supporting one of the main shafts.  This really needed to be replaced, which strangely makes me happy.  At least I haven't gone to all this trouble/expense unnecessarily. 
4.   I might have been smarter to purchase a used gearbox.  Given that these things are known to be bulletproof, that would likely have been an easier thing to do, and the cost wouldn't have been much higher.  Oh, well, live and learn.

Last item is a question for the group.  Pete was kind enough to lend me his clutch rod depth checking tool, and when used now, it shows that the correct length of rod is already in there.  However, I am assuming that I should wait until I have the gearbox reassembled with the new bellhousing, and then check it again?  It seems to me that there really shouldn't be a significant variance in the dimensions of the two bellhousings, but it probably makes sense to confirm once the final parts are in place.  Does this make good sense?

Tune in again next week, for an exciting new episode of "As the Stelvio Explodes".

Cheers,
Shaun

[Vasco DG]

I'd be very surprised if the new bell housing would make a difference but the new clutch and flywheel might require a different rod.

When you pull the box to bits take lots of pics please. As I've said I've only ever had one Nuovo Six Speed apart and don't remember a lot about it. I, and I'm sure others, would appreciate a photographic record.

Pete

[smdl]

I'd be very surprised if the new bell housing would make a difference but the new clutch and flywheel might require a different rod.

When you pull the box to bits take lots of pics please. As I've said I've only ever had one Nuovo Six Speed apart and don't remember a lot about it. I, and I'm sure others, would appreciate a photographic record.

Pete

Thanks, Pete.  I have used the tool with the new clutch, and the current rod (186mm, I believe) is a perfect fit.

I will definitely take lots of pics.  Let's just hope it all goes back together nicely! 

Cheers,
Shaun

[Vasco DG]

Just take your time, don't try and rush it and remember, if it isn't easy you're probably doing something wrong!   

Pete

[smdl]

Just take your time, don't try and rush it and remember, if it isn't easy you're probably doing something wrong!   

Pete

Wow, that's what my wife always says!   

Shaun

[jrt]

Ba dum- tsssss

[smdl]

Still waiting for parts to arrive (for all my projects ), so I just took on a small job this weekend.  Taking Phang's advice, I created a small cover from 1/8" aluminum plate to replace the thick plastic cover that was constantly fouling the frame when the engine was coming out.



Not exactly a work of art, but I wasn't too worried about aesthetics, and didn't spent too much time on it.  I think it will work fine. 

Those following along will recall that we were not able to get the engine out until we removed the plastic cover (which was NOT easy to access).  I'm sure there is a way, but we couldn't find it, and neither could Phang.  This cover creates a great deal of extra space in this area, so should allow the engine to go back in with the cover in place.

The parts should be in this week, so I hope to complete the clutch next weekend.

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

I'm happy to say that the parts have arrived, so I'm going at the gearbox this weekend. 

Gearbox on the workbench:



New bellhousing (A.K.A. Clutch Cover, Clutch Basket, Clutch Drum, etc.):



Remove neutral sensor:



Remove 5 external and 9 internal bolts (sorry, no pictures).  Bolts inside the bellhousing were severely beaten by the shrapnel of the clutch, but all came out with the use of a 6-point socket.

Attach first puller (thanks, Pete!):



Attach second puller (thanks again, Pete!):



Both pullers, different angle:



Start turning pullers, and...





Gearbox case removed (and yes, I did "collect the washer":



The guts (Here there be dragons!):







That's it for tonight as I have some other things to attend to.  I'll get back to it in the morning when I'm fresh.  Wish me luck!

Stupid question:  One of the bearings is a sealed type, but I assume that there is no need to grease any of these with all that gear oil splashing around, right?  Told you it was a stupid question!

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

By the way, a little trivia:  Next time your Ducati-riding friends start waxing poetic about desmodromic, you can show them up by honestly stating that your CARC Guzzi has exaclty the same thing!



 

Cheers,
Shaun

[Wayne Orwig]

I assume the drum detent has rollers on it. Since they shift easier than the old 5 speeds with a plunger.

[Triple Jim]

"Desmodromic drum"... I like that name.

[smdl]

I assume the drum detent has rollers on it. Since they shift easier than the old 5 speeds with a plunger.

Yes, that shaft does have roller bearings.  The whole mechanism is pretty interesting. 

Shaun

[canuck750]

Quite the design evolution form the original 5 speed Loop gear box, looks a little more complicated to disassemble!

Hope its back together soon for you.

Cheers

Jim

[smdl]

Thanks, Jim.

I have it over at a friend's shop now as he is pressing in the bearings for me.  I hope to get it back shortly and get it back together for reassembly.

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

One interesting question:  Three of the four bearings supplied are sealed, and my friend says that it is quite possible that one side needs to remain open to allow oil flow.  Apparently, that could be either the inside or outside, depending upon the design.  He works mostly on Japanese bikes, so is not familiar with Guzzi and might need to pull out the old ones to check.  Does anyone know how they are normally set up?

Thanks,
Shaun

[Vasco DG]

I haven't been inside a 1200 six speed but if it's identical in most ways to the 1100 box then most of the shaft bearings will be sealed.

No need to grease anything. Just put some yak fat in it when it goes back together and ride.

Pete

[smdl]

I haven't been inside a 1200 six speed but if it's identical in most ways to the 1100 box then most of the shaft bearings will be sealed.

No need to grease anything. Just put some yak fat in it when it goes back together and ride.

Pete

Yak fat... yak fat... Ah, here it is!!

Thanks, Pete. 

Shaun

[smdl]

Okay, time for an update.  I'm happy to report that the bellhousing has been swapped, and that everything seems to be working properly. 

Before:



After:



Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of pictures to add to what I have already posted, but will list some lessons learned.  The reason for this is that my friend, the motorcycle mechanic, ended up swapping the shafts over.  I took the bearings and the new bellhousing to him so he could press them in for me, and he then asked for the old bellhousing for reference.  He wanted to confirm if the sealed bearing needed to remain sealed, or if they should be opened on one side, the other, or both (he has apparently seen all these combinations before).  In order to check each bearing, he pulled all the shafts, removed each bearing to check, and found that all the sealed bearings were to remain sealed (you were correct, Pete).  In any case, because he had everything out, he just moved the shafts over for me, and when I arrived, we just reassembled the cases together.  This took a little more persuading that I had expected, but with much patience, along with persistent taps with a plastic hammer (away from all machined surfaces), everything went back together nicely.  He used a Suzuki sealant that he has had a lot of success with.

Upon arrival back home, I reconnected the shift arm and ran up and down through the gears with no apparent issues. 

Points of potential interest:

• As mentioned, three of the four bearings on the front case are sealed, and should remain that way.
• The heads on all the bolts within the bellhousing were beaten up by the flying shrapnel.  All were replaced.
• Although the shrapnel in the bellhousing had machined a 5mm channel in the shaft bosses, my friend still felt the there was a lot of material left, and that the part was likely still completely serviceable as it was.
• He was very impressed with how stout the Guzzi gearbox was.  He felt that it was way over-engineered (in a good way), and that it was understandable why these have a reputation for being bulletproof.
• The manual shows all the shafts coming out together after the preselector shaft is removed, but he advised that this did not work in this case.  He said that what did work was to remove the clutch shaft last, and install it first.  The primary and driven shafts came out before, and went in after the clutch shaft (as did the desmo drum).

Hope this is of some help to others, and apologies for not having any additional pictures of the individual shafts, etc.

Next I am completing the clutch install, mating the gearbox to the engine, and reinstalling the pair into the frame.  I would have had the clutch completed already, but the centering tool that Pete loaned me needs a couple of somewhat unusual bolts (M7 1.0 x 50mm) in order to compress the clutch diaphragm.  I'm hoping to get those at the bolt place tomorrow morning, and should then be able to proceed.  What's interesting is that I had thought this tool would be used to center the friction disc, but that's not what it is used for.  It is actually used to center the little "pressure plate" that the clutch rod presses on, and which applies force to the clutch diaphragm (number 8 in the following diagram).



What's odd is that this part already seems to be very well-located by three extended fingers on the diaphragm.  Although it's not evident, there much be a good reason for using the tool, or they likely wouldn't have created it. 

Hopefully, I'll have everything back together tomorrow night, and the engine back in the frame sometime this week.  It will probably be another couple of weeks before I get the bike running again, though, as I am going to pick up another Eldo next weekend.

Pete, I should be able to get all the tools on their way back to you within the next couple of days.  Thanks again for allowing me to borrow them!

Cheers,
Shaun

[smdl]

Okay, time for another update.  I didn't get a chance to work on the Stelvio over the Canadian Thanksgiving weekend, as I was on a trip down to the Portland, Maine, area to pick up my next project:



I have a separate thread going on that one, in case anyone is interested:  http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=79503.0

However, I did get a chance to work on the Stelvio a bit last week, and then again tonight.  First, I got the clutch back together:



Next was to mate the gearbox to the engine, at which point I remembered something that I thought others would find interesting.  For those who follow Gregory Bender's great website (thisoldtractor.com), you might recall seeing a discussion about the use of Schnoor lockwashers on aluminum parts (not recommended).  So, imagine my surprise when I separated the gearbox from the engine and found these washers in place!! 



You can clearly see that the washers were in place, and it is interesting that Guzzi chose to use them in this way.  I put new Schnoor washers in upon reassembly.

Next up was putting the engine back in the frame, which is something my friend Dom helped with.  I really couldn't have done it without him, and I owe him more than a few beers for all the help he has been during this project!  Here's the end result:



Finally, the engine is back in the frame, and I will be working on reassembly this weekend.  Will keep this thread updated.

Cheers,
Shaun

[nick949]

Fabulous Shaun - glad to hear the Stelvio is in the recovery room   

Nick

[Chuck in Indiana]

Attaboy! Way to suck it up and get it done..

[Phang]

Well done Shaun!