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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tinus89 on April 21, 2020, 02:41:37 AM
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Hey all,
Recently I've purchased a V65 Florida, with the goal of transforming it into a cafe racer.
Now the bike starts and runs fine, except for the choke. It was stuck on the left carb, which I managed to work free. Cleaned both carbs and blasted every jet with compressed air.
Symptoms: bike starts & runs fine when warm (after 3-4min it will keep idling fine). However when I apply the choke (cold engine as well as warm), the bike dies on the left cilinder. It just does not want to run with the choke on.
Choke off and a bit of throttle to keep the revs above 1000, all is good.
TB's are synched/balanced at idle using idle screws and at 3k rpm using gas cable adjusters. Runs fantastic.
Ideas?
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I also sync choke cables if it doesn't have separate levers. It is most likely the choke jet. OR rubber on end of plunger or oring on choke jet or on the top by lever or top where cable goes in. The circuit sucks gas strait out of bowl, no need for more than a #60.
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Are you in the North America? Those are super rare if so. You, of course will do as you want, but if y cafe it out it’s just going to be another cafe bike, but a un-molested Florida, that would be cool.
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You go ahead & cafe it. The Florida was another unfortunate exercise in styling, and needs turning back into a proper Guzzi. Of course, only my opinion, but I'm with you. You're not alone. There's more than a few decent examples out there among the dross.
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Not sure I understand your problem. I've never worked on a carburetor Guzzi that would run with the choke activated. The 'choke' system in a DelLorto carb is not really a choke, but rather and enrichening circuit. They are very binary in operation, ON/OFF, and do not deal well with minor adjustments. When ON, they provide way more fuel than is necessary. Sort of an all-or-nothing effect. A properly running bike will soon die if you don't add some throttle to provide air to combat the excessive fuel. The 'choke' is for starting, not running. Depending on how cold, you may need to feather the choke and throttle each a little to keep it running until it warms up a bit.
YMMV.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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In addition to what Patrick says it sounds like the choke cable slack is not even between carbs
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Hi all, thanks for responding!
I am not in the US but in the Netherlands, where Florida's are very common. And indeed, I think they are not a real Guzzi at all styling wise.
As I am a real lover of mostly the older type Guzzi's (and my 2001 V11 Sport, see intro thread), I am convinced I can make this a thing of beauty, a real Guzzi. :afro:
Now onto the issue: I am a fairly experienced mechanic, but not with carburettors. They always seemed to work for me, and I have never had to work on the split system.
It's clear to me now the choke setting is much more sensitive than I thought. I know the bike should die with full choke on, but with partial choke it only dies on the left, which isn't correct. I'll compare the carburettors side by side (including choke jet size, it should be a 60) and report back in 1-2 days. :thumb:
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Hi all, thanks for responding!
I am not in the US but in the Netherlands, where Florida's are very common. And indeed, I think they are not a real Guzzi at all styling wise.
As I am a real lover of mostly the older type Guzzi's (and my 2001 V11 Sport, see intro thread), I am convinced I can make this a thing of beauty, a real Guzzi. :afro:
Now onto the issue: I am a fairly experienced mechanic, but not with carburettors. They always seemed to work for me, and I have never had to work on the split system.
It's clear to me now the choke setting is much more sensitive than I thought. I know the bike should die with full choke on, but with partial choke it only dies on the left, which isn't correct. I'll compare the carburettors side by side (including choke jet size, it should be a 60) and report back in 1-2 days. :thumb:
If it was me, I'd get a gasket/seal set and give them a dismantle and good clean out. Check out all the cables too.
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Not for nothing but my 84 V65C runs like shit when cold, stalling multiple times, needing constant throttle to keep running, taking forever to warm up. Runs like a champ warm,no problems. Just cold blooded. Carb bikes need to warm up and apparently V65's especially. Other owners of V65's have told me the same thing. It is possible you're chasing a normal condition.
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In addition to what Patrick says it sounds like the choke cable slack is not even between carbs
Basically, that's what I said on the V11 forum. That's my bet, anyway.
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I had a v65, it ran great when cold.
But I had a professional Guzzi Guru set it up, before that it wasn’t quite perfect.
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I know the bike should die with full choke on, but with partial choke it only dies on the left, which isn't correct.
Why do you write this "isn't correct."? The hand choke lever has one cable. It goes to a 'splitter' which then separates into two individual cables, one for each carb. When you pull on the cables, an internal plunger device lifts off of an enrichening port to allow liquid gas flow. It would be nearly impossible to get both of these ports to expose and release fuel exactly simultaneously. So, a partial choke might allow additional fuel on one carb but not on the other. Sounds normal to me. Trying to match the two choke plungers to work in unison would be like chasing your tail. The finite adjustment is going to change every time you pull on the cables and every time you go through a heat/cool cycle. Not worth it. Just use the choke for starting cold. Then use a little throttle and perhaps an occasional blip of the choke to keep it running until it is warm enough to maintain idle on its own. It sounds like you are familiar with fuel injection motorcycles and cars. All of this stuff is handled by the fuel injection computer so you can just start and idle. Not so with a carb. ESPECIALLY not so with a DelLorto carb.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Thanks for all the responses. I've already learned a lot here.
So it appears V65's don't like running cold... I know I may be chasing a ghost here and I also understand now there will always be a difference in right and left, which I can accept.
The only thing I can't accept, is what happens when I start her cold. With a tiny bit of choke, she already refuses to fire up. When I close the choke she fires up, but when I reopen the choke just ever so slightly, the left cilinder dies.
Because of this, I expect to have trouble starting when it is cold outside.
I've really precisely measured choke cable slack on both sides, and later on given left a tiny bit more slack than right. The behavior remains the same...
Choke jet is #60 as per manual, o-ring gives good resistance when installing float bowl and the rubber bit on the bottom of the plunger is good.
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Surprising Chuck has not said
Most fuel problems are actually electrical
I’d give it plugs at least, clean points if yours runs them, check timing
But if you want to absolutely prove the fault, swap components
Plugs
If same
Coils /ht leads (swap lt wires and run ht leads to other side)
If neither, swap carbs but I’m doubting that one
You are correct, this should not happen, you should be able to run each cylinder separately.
EDIT
Quickest test
Close plug gap on offending side, to 010” and try
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That sounds like a plan.
Out of curiosity, what would closing that plug gap do? Increase the spark energy?
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What spark plugs are you using? My wife's V65SP is cold blooded like most are. I raised the needles one notch, synced the choke cables, which by the way there are two, synced the carbs. This all helped. Then I switched to a hotter plug. I went from an NGK BP6ES to a BP5ES. That helped more than anything else I did. Just remember that with NGKs you drop a number to go hotter.
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Put in larger pilot jets. It helps with being cold blooded and will run better when warm if you don't go too big.
When the weather is warm you won't even need the choke. Just a bit of throttle for a bit until it will idle and it won't take but 30 sec. As it warms the idle improves but you can fire it up and once it will run with no throttle you are ready to go.
I can start mine and back it out of the shed then turn it around and go.
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Love the amount of responses :bow:
I'll have to have a look at the plugs currently installed, will come back to that.
On going a pilot jet size up, what step are you suggesting?
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Well,
my first thought was "A dead Florida is a Good Florida", :evil: then I read this.
Recently I've purchased a V65 Florida, with the goal of transforming it into a cafe racer.
I suspect you have either a blockage or a vacuum leak in the choke circuit on the LH side.
Those Del's are one step above a lawn mower carb - very simple, keep at it and you'll figure it out.
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My V50 was a troublesome little bastard until I went silly with it. Adjusting each carb float as if working on a single cylinder. The two floats are adjusted way different but the bike runs spot on. Easy cold or warm start, quick to warm up. great fuel mileage. Just a joy to ride. With that said I would lower the fuel level in the left carb ever so slightly to see if anything changed. Might not work but it sure did with mine.
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I'll have to have a look at the plugs currently installed, will come back to that.
Regina used to ride a V 65C. It was a bear to start. I changed plugs and transformed the machine. Now all that I use in every Guzzi except my old singles. I have been using and touting these plugs for years.
http://www.guzzipower.com/Sparkplug-pehayes.html (http://www.guzzipower.com/Sparkplug-pehayes.html)
Hard to find. Try EBAY.
Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
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Amazon shows they have Bosch WR7DP plugs in stock
https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-WR7DP-Platinum-Plus-Spark/dp/B000PKX6V0/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=BOSCH+PLATINUM+PLUS+%234016&qid=1587677314&s=automotive&sr=1-1
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Quote from: Tinus89 on Today at 05:35:36 AM (https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=105374.msg1670901#msg1670901)Love the amount of responses :bow:
I'll have to have a look at the plugs currently installed, will come back to that.
On going a pilot jet size up, what step are you suggesting?
After checking float levels, choke cables and plungers check if both choke jets are the same. If so and its still cold blooded increase pilot jet size by two steps. Say it has a 50, go to a 55. If its too rich go down to a 52 or whatever the next size is. If too lean go up another two.
Its worked on my bikes and it how we've tuned many a race car.
On straight ethanol its a whole nother animal. The above goes out the window.
But do as all have said first to ensure its not just jetting.
On both my Guzzis (1000 30 mm) if I set the chokes it fires up but before too long it starts to run rough unless I clear it but by that time I can just turn off the chokes.
Finally I started pulling one cable and firing it. Then the cables rusted so I installed individual plungers and alternate sides.
In summer I don't use them.
Its not out of the question to find different jets from the factory. A friend knew a guy who bought a small block new many moons ago and could never get it to run right. After much work it was found to have a head different from the other.
Keep us posted and good luck!
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Right. This goes more interesting by the day. :weiner:
As the spark plug caps were a little odd anyway (sorta 45deg angle), I purchased two new ones as well as two BP5ES plugs (NGK).
Unscrewed the old (but fairly new): BP7ES (R) and BP8ES (L).
I thought: this must be it!
It was not.
What I did:
- Compared both carbs, all jets, all the same and all as per Workshop Manual. Forgot to measure the float positions, but at least they were equal.
- MEASURED&set choke cable play left/right at 3mm. Also secured the splitter & cables to prevent movement there.
- Cut 15mm of each HT lead and installed new caps with new plugs gapped at 0.6mm.
- Set choke to first notch (lifting plungers about 1mm of seat)
Atempted to start the bike. After about 10sec cranking, closed choke and she fired up immediately. Had to keep revs on to keep her running though.
When I give her some revs (2k) and I open the choke again, she now dies on both cilinders. Blackish smoke out of both exhausts. Checked plugs after this, both wet. She's still drowning on choke.
Also did the test at idle and at 3k rpm, shutting off ignition and checking plugs. Could've been a bit dryer (keep in mind I used the ignition to switch off, so the last cycle is no spark), but color is good.
I'm considering giving up. Given the major customisation I'm planning to do, I may actually revert to two manual choke plungers anyway. It seems like she would more benefit a RPM increaser (pulling the throttle cable when cold, like on FI bikes (my V11)), as firing up without choke when cold is no issue.
Maybe in future (after mods) rebuild the carbs with a seal kit and potentially increase the pilot jet a size.
So unless you have some sort of brilliant ideas... :bike-037:
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I never used the chokes on my Ambo or Eldo with a cold or hot engine. IF I did, it would not start. If at idle or just over, pull the choke and it dies.
I now have a V1000 engine that I'm working with. When cold it will not start unless I use the choke. I flip the choke lever, 2 small twists of throttle to pump some gas, hit the starter. It starts. Then I promptly close the choke and hold the throttle. IF I leave the choke open to let it warm up at idle, it dies. Once warmed up for the day, it starts with out the choke. Maybe if I let it sit for many hours, I might need the choke again?
From reading your issue, if I'm reading right, sorta sounds normal.
Good luck,
Tom
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What is the valve lash set at?
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What is the valve lash set at?
0.15/0.2mm in/ex.
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0.15/0.2mm in/ex.
Sounds right. What is the ignition system? Chuck says you can fix a lot of carb problems by fixing the ignition
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Ignition system is a Carmo Electronics electronic one.
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That’s one I’ve never heard of...
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Is the carmo a replacement for the motoplatt or the digiplex original ?
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Is the carmo a replacement for the motoplatt or the digiplex original ?
I wouldn't know, it was on there when I bought it.
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Hi all,
Eventually I have had my carbs ultrasonically cleaned, so if should run fine now. I have made significant progress in the build and am almost ready to fire her up for the first time.
One question I have not been able to anwer myself, it is one for the electronics geeks among us:
- If I were to remove the battery/charge light, would the battery then still charge? I have heard a rumor this may not be the case, and the wire going from the charge light negative should go to the V.reg to enable charging. Anyone know whether this is true?
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- If I were to remove the battery/charge light, would the battery then still charge? I have heard a rumor this may not be the case, and the wire going from the charge light negative should go to the V.reg to enable charging. Anyone know whether this is true?
Apparently they don't charge if the light burns out - so the light needs to be in the system. I think the resistance needs to be correct too.
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I believe SED's correct ^^
When on holiday in Austria last summer the v65sp stopped charging, some diagnostics revealed that the battery charge indicator light didn't light up anymore when switching on the ignition. Changing this light to a working one also fixed the charging issue.
You can check it's functioning with this wiring diagram;
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/pdfs/1986_V65_Florida.pdf
On the big block Guzzi's a common mod is to wire a resistance parallel to the charging light. searching this on the forum should show a few results. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work on a small block.
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The charge light is a vital part of the old Bosch alternators but you can replace the lamp with a resistor, 120 Ohm 1 Watt would be a place to start.
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Interesting.... I should note my V65 has the "newer" charge system design, with no separate rectifier and regulator, but the later type regulator straight from the alternator.
Would this still apply then?
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If your V65 Florida has a Saprisa or Ducati Electronica charging system, then the warning light doesn't need to be working in order for it to charge.
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How do I find this out?
Maybe just try it with the charge light removed... If it does not charge I know where to look :thewife:
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Remove the alternator cover and look at the alternator.
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So it seems I have a Saprisa alternator. No charge light required then?
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After riding for the first time last weekend, I can confirm:
- No charge light required for the Sarprisa alternator, she charges fine at 14.5v
- The Ultrasonic bath and choke-plunger-to-manual-conversion have cured the one cilinder dying on full choke when cold. :bow:
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Good result !