Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: remfanuk on June 30, 2022, 12:25:51 PM

Title: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on June 30, 2022, 12:25:51 PM
Hi

I am stripping the bevel drive so as to be able to get it cerakoted but am stuck on how to remove the bolts in the photos.  It feels like they are a 13mm but is still a bit sloppy.  A 12mm is too small.  How do I get these out without ruining them?  The gear is in the way so i cannot get a socket flat on them and the 13mm slipped off the bolt.

Thanks.

(https://i.ibb.co/YfF67N4/20220630-174631.jpg) (https://ibb.co/YfF67N4)

Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: John A on June 30, 2022, 12:59:44 PM
They should be 13mm. What brand of socket?  Maybe itís a poor socket. In the Ambassadors tool kit there was a small Ford wrench with the handle shaped for a tire spoon. I found that to be a good tool for holding the spindle across the flats . I have some other Ford wrenches but that little one works the best. Itís not what you asked though. I have run across bolts that had the heads mis sized so maybe thatís it. Iíd replace them. Maybe you can use an inch size, maybe half inch can be fit on with some tapping.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on June 30, 2022, 01:59:30 PM
my sockets are bahco and are usually spot on...but with the gear teeth in the way the socket will not go completely over the head of the bolt.  i tried the open end of a 13mm spanner/wrench and it just seemed to want to round itself off the bolt head.  again, not being able to get it flat/horizontal to the head the wrench is only partially seated.  i have got the drive in my vice so that prevents it from spinning, so at least got that bit sorted.  i am loathed to use some vice grips...irwin's i think...even though they are superb and never slide off what they are being used upon.  i dont have any imperial sockets.  am i missing some way of lifting the washer/spacer on the shaft which is what is preventing me getting the socket on the head fully?
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: pehayes on June 30, 2022, 02:05:51 PM
Ah, smallblock rear drive.  Yes,  you should pull the bearing race off of the shaft.  That will give you a LOT more clearance for your socket.  Caution, hard to see, but the bearing race is retained on the shaft by a very thin wire split ring.  Hard to see, but look at  your image at about the 7:00 or 8:00 area above the bearing race and  you can see the tip end of the retaining ring.  That has to be prised out with a pick before  you can pull the bearing race.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on June 30, 2022, 02:25:16 PM
I pulled the roller bearing off the shaft okay...it's not in the photo.  do you mean the flange/spacer type thing you can see on the shaft in the photo?  if so, i had not looked how that was secured on there.  i think that might crack it as the roller bearing i took off the shaft was not secured by anything.  is the part you are referencing numbered in the photo below?

thanks


(https://i.ibb.co/jvZH87J/Bevel-gear-for-MOTO-GUZZI-V-50-Acc-Elettronica-1979-MOTO-GUZZI-Online-Genuine-Spare-Parts-Catalog.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jvZH87J)

Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on June 30, 2022, 06:49:57 PM
I pulled the roller bearing off the shaft okay...it's not in the photo.  do you mean the flange/spacer type thing you can see on the shaft in the photo? if so, i had not looked how that was secured on there.  i think that might crack it as the roller bearing i took off the shaft was not secured by anything.  is the part you are referencing numbered in the photo below?

thanks


(https://i.ibb.co/jvZH87J/Bevel-gear-for-MOTO-GUZZI-V-50-Acc-Elettronica-1979-MOTO-GUZZI-Online-Genuine-Spare-Parts-Catalog.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jvZH87J)

Yes. A little heat and a puller and it will come right off. Then you can get to the bolt heads properly. Throw away the plates under them and put shnoor washers under. I like the 3 piece ones.
This *is* a small block, right? What year? If before 87, there are other mods that need to be done.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Hacksaw on June 30, 2022, 11:02:56 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/fYydcj5/small-block-bevel-box.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fYydcj5)


I put an arrow to what I believe Patrick is referring to.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: pehayes on July 01, 2022, 12:14:31 AM
  is the part you are referencing numbered in the photo below?

thanks

Yes, but it is VERY obscure.  The split ring is #17 in your diagram.  Not shown anywhere near the bearing race.

Someone modified  you photograph with an arrow to show the split ring.  That's it.

You MUST remove the ring before pulling the race.  The outer or exposed portion of the shaft is actually the sealing surface for the smaller, inner seal.  Damage that sealing surface and you're in for leakage.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 01, 2022, 01:46:13 AM
yes, this is a small block v50 mk2 (1979).  thanks for the advice about the plates and washers.

Guys, you are fantastic.  thank you.  i will have a go at this later today.  if all goes well i am confident i can separate these parts.  the arrowed photo shows the ring that you speak of...i would not have noticed that without your help.  cheers!
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 01, 2022, 05:59:39 AM
So, i have had a look at this and although i have managed to loosen a couple of bolts you will see from the photos that 'A' (washer?) prevents the bolts coming out fully.  Although 'A' can move slightly it is not enough to get it out of the way.


(https://i.ibb.co/gVXtc13/20220701-112240.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gVXtc13)



(https://i.ibb.co/sbs6VW7/20220701-112719.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sbs6VW7)


There is no split in washer 'B' that i can seem which also moves and as can be seen in the photo there is sufficient gap between 'A' and 'B' for a razor blade to part them.  'C' does not seem to play any part in removing the washer/s from the shaft...so still confused how to get this out.  i hope this makes sense and you are able to advise me further.  i just dont want to damage anything by trying to prise either 'A' or 'B' out.  thanks.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 01, 2022, 06:43:46 AM
C has to come out first.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 01, 2022, 06:47:06 AM
so C is also a split ring?  only needs prying out?
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on July 01, 2022, 08:22:11 AM
so C is also a split ring?  only needs prying out?

Yes and yes.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: pehayes on July 01, 2022, 11:42:30 AM
Looking at your annotated photo.  The tip of the yellow arrow "C" is pointing directly at the open gap in the split ring that  retains the bearing race.  It is a simple, thin ring.  Look for the tip about 1/4" to the left of the yellow arrow point.  Prise out that ring and then use a puller to remove the bearing race and support washers.  B, C, and the bearing race will all pull off together.  You can then easily remove the bolts.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 01, 2022, 04:11:07 PM
I once did a tutorial on completely doing all that needs to be done on the old small block rear drive but photoblockit ransomed me to store my pix. It was a *lot*, too.. $5 a month IIRC. Sent them a nasty gram telling them what and where they could kiss after all those years of reading their ads to post a picture.
There is some other old small block stuff in this thread..
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=89034.90
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: lucky phil on July 01, 2022, 06:36:12 PM
I don't understand. The OP was told he needed to remove the clip and bearing race to get the socket to fit the bolt heads correctly and remove the bolts but ignored this and went ahead anyway! Am I missing something here?

Phil
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 02, 2022, 04:26:21 AM
I don't understand. The OP was told he needed to remove the clip and bearing race to get the socket to fit the bolt heads correctly and remove the bolts but ignored this and went ahead anyway! Am I missing something here?

Phil

Calm down Phil...all is well...  :grin: I didn't ignore the advice but thought I would see if the bolts would pass by the spacer and then out.  i have no pick or screwdriver that will get into the recess where this split ring sits.  i can move it along by gently tapping a thin screwdriver but that won't go behind it to pry it out...neither will the razor blade.  i gently heated the bearing race to see if that would help.  it didn't.  i cannot see how to get something behind the ring to prise it out.  when looking in the workshop manual there is a photo of the bearing race being taken out by a bearing puller and the bolts had already been removed, which confused me.


(https://i.ibb.co/zRpq3pW/20220702-101135.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zRpq3pW)
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 02, 2022, 06:05:12 AM
although it has not ultimately done what i expected, i have been able to get the bolts out, leaving the metal 'o ring', as MG call it, in place by taking the smallest of nibbles out of it with a dremel die grinder.  so the gear ring is now separated from the backing plate...thought more would have come off but no. 

i dont want to damage the shaft but i am honestly out of a solution to get the split ring out to enable me to take the bearing race out followed by the o ring and shim, as MG refer to it.  obviously there is the massive ball bearing to remove once i get to that point.  i am not sure i can get heat right where it's needed on the backing plate to remove it from the gear ring side.  when looking down the hole the shaft sits in there is a small relief that could possibly have a drift applied to it to drive out the gear ring shaft - last photo.  or would that just damage it?  i really want to be able to do this myself if i can.  thanks.


(https://i.ibb.co/n8PySQ7/20220702-112359.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n8PySQ7)

(https://i.ibb.co/0j6vtQt/20220702-115325.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0j6vtQt)

(https://i.ibb.co/PWpTCbk/20220702-115328.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PWpTCbk)

(https://i.ibb.co/gWkxXjn/20220702-115338.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gWkxXjn)
 
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 02, 2022, 07:06:25 AM
Quote
by taking the smallest of nibbles out of it with a dremel die grinder. 
:shocked:
Sorry, but that wasn't a good idea. There is a reason that grinding machines are segregated in the machine shop. The hard "chips" that are removed when grinding are sharp circular things..not to mention the carborundum that comes off the wheel. They get *everywhere* and you had better get every microscopic particle out before reassembling.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 02, 2022, 07:28:08 AM
absolutely i will get every last bit out...although i am still stuck as to how to disassemble the bloody thing first!  am i right in thinking that i want to minimise any kind of damage to the shaft where the split ring is?  i ask because i cannot see how to 'pry' it out without leveraging what i use to pry it out against.  i tried holding a pick against one side of the split ring whilst doing the same the other side and pulling on it to stretch out the split ring in the hope that was how to do it.  nope.  what would you guys use to pry it out and how please?  thanks
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: guzziart on July 02, 2022, 07:45:59 AM
....I realize you want to "do it yourself" but maybe it is time for outside finese.  Possibly run the assembly up to your local bike shop, etc. and see if they can put a tech on it for a minute to pop the snap ring off??!!  They'd probably let you watch so you could do it yourself next time after you buy a scratch awl or dental picks at Harbor Freight or flea market. 

Art
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Dirk_S on July 02, 2022, 07:49:37 AM
Iíd say reach out to Hamlin, Enzo, Pete Roper, or any of the other pro shop peeps whoíve worked specifically on the small blocks and see if they have the answer for you. Iíd hate for you to spend too much of your free time anticipating THE answer as you continue to receive helpful suggestions that donít actually solve the direct issue. You know the part number, maybe take that info and shoot emails out to all these folks. (And then report back here so we all become a bit wiser ;) )
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 02, 2022, 07:56:52 AM
thank you Dirk...i shall do that.  cheers  :thumb:
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 02, 2022, 08:39:27 AM
....I realize you want to "do it yourself" but maybe it is time for outside finese.  Possibly run the assembly up to your local bike shop, etc. and see if they can put a tech on it for a minute to pop the snap ring off??!!  They'd probably let you watch so you could do it yourself next time after you buy a scratch awl or dental picks at Harbor Freight or flea market. 

Art

You might be right Art...however, all the parts diagrams i have looked at do not describe this offending piece as a snap ring or split ring, simply as a clearance washer so not sure what the actual process is to remove it.  i could just put it all back together and paint rather than cerakote!
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 02, 2022, 08:47:04 AM
*I don't remember* how I removed it. That means it wasn't hard to do..  :smiley: <shrug>  Probably just worked the tip of a scriber under it enough to lever one leg up, slide the scriber under it and run it around the shaft.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on July 02, 2022, 10:22:54 AM
*I don't remember* how I removed it. That means it wasn't hard to do..  :smiley: <shrug>  Probably just worked the tip of a scriber under it enough to lever one leg up, slide the scriber under it and run it around the shaft.

^^ This. Two pointed picks or scribes to remove it. It's just spring wire, so there's not much tension.

There are technical training videos on Greg Bender's website, scroll down almost to the bottom for the small-block rear drive one.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_technical_training_videos_eng.html
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 02, 2022, 10:32:41 AM
^^ This. Two pointed picks or scribes to remove it. It's just spring wire, so there's not much tension.

There are technical training videos on Greg Bender's website, scroll down almost to the bottom for the small-block rear drive one.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_technical_training_videos_eng.html

with everyone saying that this part can be removed easily i doubted myself...as it is rock hard and no bending in it at all.  but...that video shows how it was got out.  maybe i need to use 2 very slim flat head screwdrivers rather than using the picks which dont really seem to be doing anything.  at least i know 100% now what i should be doing.  thanks i will persevere as i was thinking of cutting through the bearing race that this ring is holding in place!
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Dirk_S on July 02, 2022, 11:00:23 AM
ÖThere are technical training videos on Greg Bender's website, scroll down almost to the bottom for the small-block rear drive one.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_technical_training_videos_eng.html

Thanks for pointing these outó Wish Iíd known they existed when I was doing my clutch replacement 5 weeks ago.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: lucky phil on July 02, 2022, 06:08:36 PM
You might be right Art...however, all the parts diagrams i have looked at do not describe this offending piece as a snap ring or split ring, simply as a clearance washer so not sure what the actual process is to remove it.  i could just put it all back together and paint rather than cerakote!

Firstly you need to bear in mind you're reading an English translation of an italian parts and shop manual. You need to join the dots wording wise. Not having a pick to extract the clip means you need to buy some. The other suggestion I have for you is to try tapping the sleeve down toward the gear (or preferably press it down) and see if that releases the pressure on the clip or at least gives you some extra space to get to it and lever it out.

Phil
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 03, 2022, 06:45:35 AM
i have tried all my picks and bought a jeweller's screwdriver set for their smallness...still no joy.  there is no lifting the ring/clip out at all.  i will try your option Phil of using my press to see what that might but not sure that might simply tighten the two parts together but also might buckle the clip allowing me to get it out.  if that doesn't work my only other option is to gently cut through the bearing race whilst keeping in mind the debris that will lead to but i don't think i have any other choice.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: luthier on July 03, 2022, 07:48:55 AM
OK mate, you just need the RIGHT screwdrivers. I have a very old set of 5 and for this I would be using either the largest or the next down. You have to brutally raise the end of that circlip, yes it  is stiff, but once you get something jammed under it you should then use a second one next to it to work your way round. It has a very wide opening so it shouldn't take more than two leverages before it pops out.
The very small drivers are not robust enough. Alternatively as someone else suggested use an awl as that point should go in and bring one end out a little.
However if this still challenges you then give up right now and send it to someone who knows what the hell they are doing. Because the way you are going you will simply destroy a very expensive bit of gear for what? To salve your ego? Not worth the effort my friend.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 03, 2022, 08:29:13 AM
OK mate, you just need the RIGHT screwdrivers. I have a very old set of 5 and for this I would be using either the largest or the next down. You have to brutally raise the end of that circlip, yes it  is stiff, but once you get something jammed under it you should then use a second one next to it to work your way round. It has a very wide opening so it shouldn't take more than two leverages before it pops out.
The very small drivers are not robust enough. Alternatively as someone else suggested use an awl as that point should go in and bring one end out a little.
However if this still challenges you then give up right now and send it to someone who knows what the hell they are doing. Because the way you are going you will simply destroy a very expensive bit of gear for what? To salve your ego? Not worth the effort my friend.

have you done this procedure?  a large screwdriver cannot fit in the slot that the ring sits in.  this is not my first experience of circlips or similar.  the ring moves around its slot preventing getting underneath it.  something about this very easily removable ring is not right.  i dont know if someone has been in this before and buggered it about but this will simply not move.  there is not enough room to get anything under it, believe me i have extensive tools to be able to do this.

fella, this is not about ego.  i am trying to do things myself and learn...nothing to do with ego.  thanks for your really helpful advice.  i thought this was a respectful forum.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 03, 2022, 08:33:53 AM
I know your feathers are ruffled, but take a deep breath. I also know you are new here, and don't know one poster from another. You have received advice from some quite knowledgeable people that have done this job before.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: luthier on July 03, 2022, 08:37:25 AM
Hey Fella , I actually meant the larger ones from the Jewellers set, but hey, go forth and learn , though from what I've read you appear reluctant to do so.  And maybe your ego is not at stake but your bevel box certainly is.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Wayne Orwig on July 03, 2022, 08:52:48 AM
Is the bearing race up against the clip trapping it in place? Maybe (heat and) press the bearing race away from the clip for more working room.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Ncdan on July 03, 2022, 09:24:40 AM
have you done this procedure?  a large screwdriver cannot fit in the slot that the ring sits in.  this is not my first experience of circlips or similar.  the ring moves around its slot preventing getting underneath it.  something about this very easily removable ring is not right.  i dont know if someone has been in this before and buggered it about but this will simply not move.  there is not enough room to get anything under it, believe me i have extensive tools to be able to do this.

fella, this is not about ego.  i am trying to do things myself and learn...nothing to do with ego.  thanks for your really helpful advice.  i thought this was a respectful forum.
Easy Sir.
You have some very experienced guys here attempting to help you with this endeavor.
I have not seen a foul here. Just give it a chance to get a more clear explanation👍

Dan
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 03, 2022, 09:42:03 AM
I know your feathers are ruffled, but take a deep breath. I also know you are new here, and don't know one poster from another. You have received advice from some quite knowledgeable people that have done this job before.

new or otherwise to this forum i have been respectful and appreciated the responses until getting called egotistical or unwilling to learn.  i have tried what people have said on here and nothing has worked.  so yes, frustrated and take exception to stupid comments below...not referring to you Chuck as you have been helpful, as have those that have commented earlier in the thread.

Hey Fella , I actually meant the larger ones from the Jewellers set, but hey, go forth and learn , though from what I've read you appear reluctant to do so.  And maybe your ego is not at stake but your bevel box certainly is.

if you were specific about the jewellers set then i would have responded differently.  and if you have read this thread you will see that i have accepted the wisdom from others and tried to do what has been asked but nothing works.  so in fact i have been the opposite to being reluctant to learn at all.  read the thread and thanks for your comments  :thumb:

Easy Sir.
You have some very experienced guys here attempting to help you with this endeavor.
I have not seen a foul here. Just give it a chance to get a more clear explanation👍

Dan
.

Thanks Dan, i have appreciated the comments from more learned persons than myself.  i think its clear those who have been helpful and those that have not, and i have responded in kind.

Is the bearing race up against the clip trapping it in place? Maybe (heat and) press the bearing race away from the clip for more working room.


thanks Wayne for some constructive help here.  yes, i think you are correct that the clip appears to be trapped against the race which is why it appears to not be moving which might have been as a result of me applying heat earlier in the process.  if i am unlikely to damage it with more heat i can give it a go. 
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 03, 2022, 10:12:27 AM
Quote
Thanks Dan, i have appreciated the comments from more learned persons than myself.  i think its clear those who have been helpful and those that have not, and i have responded in kind.
I haven't seen any not helpful comments.
Quote
    Is the bearing race up against the clip trapping it in place? Maybe (heat and) press the bearing race away from the clip for more working room.


thanks Wayne for some constructive help here.  yes, i think you are correct that the clip appears to be trapped against the race which is why it appears to not be moving which might have been as a result of me applying heat earlier in the process.  if i am unlikely to damage it with more heat i can give it a go.

Lucky Phil has already mentioned that in page 1. Now, heat from a heat gun, not an acetylene torch..  :smiley:
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: sib on July 03, 2022, 01:58:39 PM
Use TWO screwdrivers or picks, one to slide behind one end of the clip and the other to hold the other end of the clip to prevent it from rotating away from the first screwdriver.  I've used this approach many times over the past 80 years and it usually works.

In fact, if you use two picks or screwdrivers and push them against both ends of the clip simultaneously, there's a good chance you can push the clip out the "back" end of the shaft .

Good luck
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 04, 2022, 08:13:33 AM
thanks for all the help guys.  i am totally frustrated with this issue and have perhaps taken some comments on board in a way they were probably not intended.  my apologies.

i will have another crack at it but feel that the ring is buggered which is why it won't come out.  cutting the bearing race would be quite drastic as they're 60 quid a go and second hand bevel drives are expensive.  i can see me reassembling it and just painting the backing plate.

thanks.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Wayne Orwig on July 04, 2022, 08:27:22 AM
Heat the bearing race a LOT using hot air. (flame is TOO much)
Tap the bearing race away from the clip a tiny bit, being slow and careful. (and lots of heat on the race)
Once you have a tiny gap there, using tiny screw drives or ice pick type tools, use your three hands to spread the gap and slip it off.

Just avoid too much caffeine so you don't go overboard.


Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Ncdan on July 04, 2022, 08:37:29 AM
thanks for all the help guys.  i am totally frustrated with this issue and have perhaps taken some comments on board in a way they were probably not intended.  my apologies.

i will have another crack at it but feel that the ring is buggered which is why it won't come out.  cutting the bearing race would be quite drastic as they're 60 quid a go and second hand bevel drives are expensive.  i can see me reassembling it and just painting the backing plate.

thanks.
Well spoken Nigel and I feel sure you will work it out👍

Dan
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 04, 2022, 12:21:27 PM
Heat the bearing race a LOT using hot air. (flame is TOO much)
Tap the bearing race away from the clip a tiny bit, being slow and careful. (and lots of heat on the race)
Once you have a tiny gap there, using tiny screw drives or ice pick type tools, use your three hands to spread the gap and slip it off.

Just avoid too much caffeine so you don't go overboard.

I will try this in the morning, thank you.  i fear that my application of heat (flame) resulted in the ring becoming immovable now.  doh.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 04, 2022, 12:48:30 PM
Quote
thanks for all the help guys.  i am totally frustrated with this issue and have perhaps taken some comments on board in a way they were probably not intended.  my apologies.
Attaboy. As far as I can see, nobody meant any harm.. only trying to help. I've said here before that "education is *expensive*." I (we) were afraid that you were going to get an expensive education if you tried to cut that bearing race and boogered up the rear drive. It's bad enough already with sharp pieces of hardened metal and carborundum that will have to be *totally* cleaned out.

I will try this in the morning, thank you.  i fear that my application of heat (flame) resulted in the ring becoming immovable now.  doh.
Unless you caused a color change on the bearing surface  :shocked: probably not. It might be instructive to look at it with a 10 power glass and see if the end is mushroomed, or the race is actually against it and keeping it from moving.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 04, 2022, 01:25:43 PM
how would you go about ensuring all the tiny bits of the washer are hoovered up?  i was thinking dragging a very small magnet all over it, followed by some literal hoovering up.  dont want any of this to get into the main bearing. 

dont have a magnifying glass but will take some macros if my phone will do it and have a good luck.  every chance i mushroomed it.  the bearing race didnt change colour so that should be okay for some heat gun heat tomorrow.  will report back.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 04, 2022, 07:22:58 PM
how would you go about ensuring all the tiny bits of the washer are hoovered up?  i was thinking dragging a very small magnet all over it, followed by some literal hoovering up.  dont want any of this to get into the main bearing. 

dont have a magnifying glass but will take some macros if my phone will do it and have a good luck.  every chance i mushroomed it.  the bearing race didnt change colour so that should be okay for some heat gun heat tomorrow.  will report back.
After making sure there were no burrs left after grinding, I would completely disassemble it, clean it as best I could, then clean it in a parts washer with clean fluid in it, and blow everything off with compressed air.
You are right. You don't want *any* of this to get into the main bearing.
When my last pup, Austin, was working on the KLR from Hell  :smiley: I told him, "Austin, you are probably the best natural mechanic I've ever known. Still, you don't know what you don't know yet." Precision fits and tolerances are not for the casual mechanic. There is more than meets the untrained eye. Again, I mean absolutely no offense. Rear drives are difficult.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: John A on July 04, 2022, 11:26:23 PM
Chuck said it well . The only thing Iíd add is when you are done cleaning it, go over it with a clean cloth with a dust product like Endust sprayed lightly on the cloth and q tips for the crevices. Iíd say use lint free cloth but it ainít a gearcase on a turbine so just wipe every surface and youíll be fine
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 05, 2022, 06:48:02 AM
the ring ends are deformed so not likely to come free without major surgery i should imagine.  so to avoid costly complex processes to remove the ring i am going to thoroughly clean and put back together and paint the backing plate as that was what this was all about originally.


(https://i.ibb.co/W25gNKn/20220705-111704.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W25gNKn)

(https://i.ibb.co/3pj4Hvk/20220705-111652.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3pj4Hvk)

(https://i.ibb.co/F6RSXpS/20220705-105805.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F6RSXpS)
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: 1down5up on July 05, 2022, 03:26:00 PM
It may just be the chamfer on the race but it looks like you have room to mode the race down a few thou which will then help give you the room to release the ring.

A bit of light heat with a torch and the right sized socket.....
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: John A on July 06, 2022, 09:19:36 AM
I donít know your location but if you are near west central WI you are welcome to bring it by here.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Wayne Orwig on July 06, 2022, 01:44:53 PM

(https://i.ibb.co/W25gNKn/20220705-111704.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W25gNKn)
In this photo, it very clearly shows that the bearing race has the clip TRAPPED in place. If the bearing race can be heated and pressed AWAY from the clip, the clip will likely almost fall off.

(https://i.ibb.co/F6RSXpS/20220705-105805.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F6RSXpS)
In this photo, is the large washer under the bearing race loose a bit? If so, you need to heat and press the race toward the large washer (away from the clip).


Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 06, 2022, 02:14:45 PM
Thanks for the responses...i think it was mentioned earlier about the race possibly being able to move but i didn't understand it until now.  yes, the washer below the race and the one below that washer all move freely by quite a lot really.  i will have a go at that tomorrow now i understand what has been said to me...might even work!  :grin:
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 08, 2022, 07:50:32 AM
to those who recommended this course of action, and i didn't understand what was being said, i thank you.  indeed, the ring was trapped...not sure how as i hadn't given it any force downwards.  either way it's out now so i can then look at stripping the rest of it.  there is a small nick on the edge of the race...any reason that won't be okay?

thanks.


(https://i.ibb.co/h7ckSHx/20220708-120751.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h7ckSHx)

(https://i.ibb.co/rx9PjVC/20220708-120740.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rx9PjVC)


Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Wayne Orwig on July 08, 2022, 08:36:04 AM
Finally.

I would GENTLY rub a whetstone ONLY ON THE VERY EDGE of that to make sure there is not high spot on the nick. The low spot on the edge should not matter.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Pescatore on July 08, 2022, 09:01:48 AM
...indeed, the ring was trapped...not sure how as i hadn't given it any force downwards.  either way it's out now so i can then look at stripping the rest of it.

I was silently cheering you on.
So how did you get the ring out exactly?  Is reassembly the same?
Do you have to replace the ring?
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Wayne Orwig on July 08, 2022, 09:08:23 AM

(https://i.ibb.co/h7ckSHx/20220708-120751.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h7ckSHx)


In this photo, are there scratches in the metal spindle above the bearing race?

If so, that may be a very very bad thing. I think the oil seal down in the housing rides on that.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on July 08, 2022, 10:52:05 AM
In this photo, are there scratches in the metal spindle above the bearing race?

If so, that may be a very very bad thing. I think the oil seal down in the housing rides on that.

One of the design "features" I dislike the most about the small-block rear drive. Any scratches need to be polished out before reassembly, or it'll be a leaker.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 08, 2022, 01:35:22 PM
Finally.
I was silently cheering you on.
So how did you get the ring out exactly?  Is reassembly the same?
Do you have to replace the ring?

I followed Wayne's instructions and it was so easy!  no wonder i couldn't fathom why i couldn't get it out, but heat gun, impact driver on the race and a gentle tap and it almost fell out!  this is my best win this year.  i did use the small bladed screwdriver to hold one end of the ring still whilst really gently using a pick on the other end...it was like the ring saw it coming and just jumped out.  so happy.  yes, i presume reassembly is the reverse.  absolutely replacing the ring.

I would GENTLY rub a whetstone ONLY ON THE VERY EDGE of that to make sure there is not high spot on the nick. The low spot on the edge should not matter.

i shall do this, thanks.

there are scratches in the spindle...i haven't been out to the garage to have a look so not sure what kind of problem that might cause.  again, a very fine wet and dry gentle rub around that exposed part of the spindle might help?  any way of checking in advance with a test to see if leakage is a certainty?

cheers.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: lucky phil on July 09, 2022, 01:40:25 AM
I followed Wayne's instructions and it was so easy!  no wonder i couldn't fathom why i couldn't get it out, but heat gun, impact driver on the race and a gentle tap and it almost fell out!  this is my best win this year.  i did use the small bladed screwdriver to hold one end of the ring still whilst really gently using a pick on the other end...it was like the ring saw it coming and just jumped out.  so happy.  yes, i presume reassembly is the reverse.  absolutely replacing the ring.

I would GENTLY rub a whetstone ONLY ON THE VERY EDGE of that to make sure there is not high spot on the nick. The low spot on the edge should not matter.


i shall do this, thanks.

there are scratches in the spindle...i haven't been out to the garage to have a look so not sure what kind of problem that might cause.  again, a very fine wet and dry gentle rub around that exposed part of the spindle might help?  any way of checking in advance with a test to see if leakage is a certainty?

cheers.

Sigh. https://www.skf.com/au/products/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/wear-sleeves/skf-speedi-sleeve

Phil
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 10, 2022, 12:12:15 PM
Sigh. https://www.skf.com/au/products/industrial-seals/power-transmission-seals/wear-sleeves/skf-speedi-sleeve

Phil

hmmm...not sure that sort of thing is necessary.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: lucky phil on July 10, 2022, 06:20:52 PM
hmmm...not sure that sort of thing is necessary.

Possibly not but for a WCS.

Phil
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 11, 2022, 07:51:36 PM
hmmm...not sure that sort of thing is necessary.

Again, I mean absolutely no offense.. but.. it is obvious that your experience level is not up to deciding what is and is not necessary. As Charlie says
Quote
One of the design "features" I dislike the most about the small-block rear drive. Any scratches need to be polished out before reassembly, or it'll be a leaker.
If the scratches can't be polished out, it will need a sleeve.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: lucky phil on July 12, 2022, 12:37:51 AM
Again, I mean absolutely no offense.. but.. it is obvious that your experience level is not up to deciding what is and is not necessary. As Charlie saysIf the scratches can't be polished out, it will need a sleeve.

You read my mind Chuck but I didn't want to say anything.

Phil
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 16, 2022, 10:24:17 AM
 :thumb:
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 18, 2022, 06:23:14 AM
i obviously need a new gasket for the rear drive, but i note on parts diagrams they show varying thicknesses of spacers in addition to the gasket.  when i took mine apart it seems to only have one gasket.  how to proceed?
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Wayne Orwig on July 18, 2022, 07:39:13 AM
Put it back EXACTLY as it came apart. Hard to imagine it did not have a shim, but if it did not, then it did not.
If it is shimmed wrong, it won't last long.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 18, 2022, 07:45:39 AM
yes, just a thin paper/card gasket.  with the bearing race not seated correctly i do wonder if someone has been in it before me.  it never leaked previously.  so what would you suggest in relation to thickness of spacer?  what's the purpose of them and are they also card/paper or metal?  cheers
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: adaven on July 18, 2022, 11:54:16 AM
I was where you are at a couple of years ago. Despite lots of helpful advice from this forum, I made a monkey's lunch of the job. It was over my head.
I sent it to Harper's to get it done right. I am very happy with that decision.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 18, 2022, 12:08:08 PM
i do feel a can of worms has been opened but at least havent taken much off...just need the right spacer with the gasket i can get hold of.  i am hoping that it wont leak like a sieve.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: pehayes on July 18, 2022, 12:59:04 PM
yes, just a thin paper/card gasket.  with the bearing race not seated correctly i do wonder if someone has been in it before me.  it never leaked previously.  so what would you suggest in relation to thickness of spacer?  what's the purpose of them and are they also card/paper or metal?  cheers

Please inspect VERY carefully.  This rear drive should require TWO paper gaskets and one, thin steel spacer.  The paper gaskets usually stick to the casing or the cover or to the spacer.  The stuck together pieces can often look like one.  Like a very thin sandwich.  The spacer is critical to maintaining a proper position of the crown gear and thus proper engagement of the helical pinion/crown interface.  I can't imagine that the factory assembled it without any spacer.  Time for some professional expertise to set this back correctly.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on July 18, 2022, 01:30:38 PM
Please inspect VERY carefully.  This rear drive should require TWO paper gaskets and one, thin steel spacer.  The paper gaskets usually stick to the casing or the cover or to the spacer.  The stuck together pieces can often look like one.  Like a very thin sandwich.  The spacer is critical to maintaining a proper position of the crown gear and thus proper engagement of the helical pinion/crown interface.  I can't imagine that the factory assembled it without any spacer.  Time for some professional expertise to set this back correctly.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

What Patrick said. Here's what you see when you open one up. As you can see, there is a gasket on each side of the shim. It has to be assembled exactly like this with the proper thickness gaskets and shim, or the life of the rear drive will be measured in minutes.
(https://static.imgzeit.com/reduced/cfebc23b7ea97ff3/V50%20stuff%20008.JPG)
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 18, 2022, 01:50:07 PM
got it!  the spacer looked like the casing material to me...but just looked and yes the spacer is present and the gasket underneath.  i will gently lift out and measure the spacer.  thanks.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: pehayes on July 18, 2022, 03:32:23 PM
i will gently lift out and measure the spacer.  thanks.

No need to measure anything.  Your spacer was selected at the factory to match the proper spacing between your cover and your casing.  You would only need to modify or test the spacer if you were changing metallic parts.  Just clean off the gaskets and use new ones.  Good to go.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Wayne Orwig on July 18, 2022, 04:47:28 PM
got it!  the spacer looked like the casing material to me...but just looked and yes the spacer is present and the gasket underneath.  i will gently lift out and measure the spacer.  thanks.

Reuse that exact metal spacer.
Replace the two papers.
REUSE that metal spacer as is.
Do not use three paper gaskets. Do NOT use one paper gasket.
It is all matched to the gears. Do NOT use gasket goop or things that may modify the thickness without extreme care.

When you measure the metal gasket, the measurement will not really match the parts list. When you order a replacement part, the replacement part will not really match the parts list or the part you have. It was shimmed at the factory for that piece of metal. Stay with that piece of metal. Or you should send it off to Harpers or such. Setting it up properly is an art.


Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on July 18, 2022, 06:48:11 PM
thanks guys for your help, much appreciated.  i will follow your guidance to the letter.  didn't realise the importance of the spacer to that extent.  cheers  :grin:
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on August 03, 2022, 05:55:20 AM
still at this.  wasn't expecting that there are two metal spacers separating the paper gaskets.  diagrams don't show this and nobody in this thread mentioned it.  is this unusual?  i am still going to put it back as it was but curious.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Frenchfrog on August 03, 2022, 06:25:37 AM
Well what you call spacers are actually shims. The bevel drive needs to be very accurately shimmed or it will go tits up rather quickly.Due to manufacturing tolerances in the case, bearings and bevels how thick a shim is correct varies so you could go from no shim ( unlikely ) to several to obtain the desired pack.
Setting one up is not for the impatient, clumsy or negligent.I'm not implying that you are any of those but it is imperative that it is done correctly or the only part worth keeping could be the casings.Charlie Cole used to be the man Stateside but he has passed.https://www.zydecoracing.com/about.html   there are surely some other engineers in the US who could accomplish the task .
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on August 03, 2022, 09:18:44 AM
i was going to use the word shim but have seen them described as spacers too.  what i wasn't expecting was more than one of them but that's entirely feasible from what you have said.  i shall just reassemble in the way they came off as i had no leaks or issues. thanks.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Frenchfrog on August 03, 2022, 09:43:23 AM
Good luck...if you change the bearings or the hub which the seal runs on the box will need re shimming.
You just "might ' get away with a new seal on a refreshed hub but in my experience both the hub and seal have needed replacing. And that's on a couple of drives...caused a lot of frustration having to redo every thing several times over before the leaks would finally stop.Add to which they did not immediately leak again :laugh:
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 03, 2022, 09:46:05 AM
Charlie Cole used to be the man Stateside but he has passed.https://www.zydecoracing.com/about.html   

I'm not sure where you got this information, but as far as I know Charley is still alive, he's just not doing work anymore.

i was going to use the word shim but have seen them described as spacers too.  what i wasn't expecting was more than one of them but that's entirely feasible from what you have said.  i shall just reassemble in the way they came off as i had no leaks or issues. thanks.

Yes, I've seen more than one shim.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: pehayes on August 03, 2022, 11:22:03 AM
I'm confused.  How would two shims work?  There are paper gaskets to seal between the cover and the shim and another gasket between the shim and the case body.  With two shims you end up with a bare metal-to-metal interface and that wouldn't seem to seal for long.  You could use three gaskets, but that really starts to impact the spacing measurements.  Need more insight here.

Whatever, don't be tempted to use adhesive sealant.  You'll never get it apart again.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on August 03, 2022, 11:28:56 AM
Good luck...if you change the bearings or the hub which the seal runs on the box will need re shimming.
You just "might ' get away with a new seal on a refreshed hub but in my experience both the hub and seal have needed replacing. And that's on a couple of drives...caused a lot of frustration having to redo every thing several times over before the leaks would finally stop.Add to which they did not immediately leak again :laugh:

definitely don't want to strip it any further.  chasing oils leaks is not a game i want to play  :grin:
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on August 03, 2022, 11:31:17 AM
I'm confused.  How would two shims work?  There are paper gaskets to seal between the cover and the shim and another gasket between the shim and the case body.  With two shims you end up with a bare metal-to-metal interface and that wouldn't seem to seal for long.  You could use three gaskets, but that really starts to impact the spacing measurements.  Need more insight here.

Whatever, don't be tempted to use adhesive sealant.  You'll never get it apart again.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

i will leave the answering to this for someone more knowledgeable.  however, starting at the casing and working outwards there was a metal shim, paper gasket, metal shim and finally a paper gasket.  it was only removing the last paper gasket that it lifted up what i thought was the casing but was another metal shim.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Frenchfrog on August 03, 2022, 11:50:43 AM
You just stack the shims with a paper gasket on either side of the stack Patrick.
The skill is getting the thickness of the stack just right
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on August 03, 2022, 12:21:27 PM
I'm confused.  How would two shims work?  There are paper gaskets to seal between the cover and the shim and another gasket between the shim and the case body.  With two shims you end up with a bare metal-to-metal interface and that wouldn't seem to seal for long.  You could use three gaskets, but that really starts to impact the spacing measurements.  Need more insight here.

Whatever, don't be tempted to use adhesive sealant.  You'll never get it apart again.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

That's how my V50 III came from the factory: gasket/shim/gasket/shim/gasket. I use sealer (Permatex 300) and have no problem getting them back apart.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on August 03, 2022, 01:43:50 PM
That's how my V50 III came from the factory: gasket/shim/gasket/shim/gasket. I use sealer (Permatex 300) and have no problem getting them back apart.

interesting how there are so many variations.  so there should not be a metal shim directly on the casing?  looks like i need to order another gasket in that case.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: n3303j on August 03, 2022, 03:04:10 PM
interesting how there are so many variations.  so there should not be a metal shim directly on the casing?  looks like i need to order another gasket in that case.
Ural just stacks the paper gaskets until clearance is obtained.
(Note: I didn't say proper clearance)
It's not unusual to find a half dozen paper gaskets piled under the cover.
OTOH My '98 V11 came through with a metal to metal junction glued together with aqua green "stuff" about the consistency of epoxy.
It was a bear to disassemble and remove.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Wayne Orwig on August 03, 2022, 03:58:00 PM
interesting how there are so many variations.  so there should not be a metal shim directly on the casing?  looks like i need to order another gasket in that case.

The paper gasket is ALSO a part of the shimming.
Put it together exactly as it was.
If you experiment with altered shims or gaskets, assume it will have a short life.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on August 04, 2022, 11:30:43 AM
mine was gasket, shim, gasket, shim.  i intend to assemble it all together and fill with oil to make sure there's no leaks before painting.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: John A on August 04, 2022, 11:41:55 AM
mine was gasket, shim, gasket, shim.  i intend to assemble it all together and fill with oil to make sure there's no leaks before painting.




That's not when it would leak.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on August 04, 2022, 01:36:53 PM



That's not when it would leak.

what would you suggest to test it?
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: John A on August 04, 2022, 10:59:58 PM
There is a procedure in the maintenance manual to pressurize the box. I'm camped about 30 miles north of Wonewoc so I have limited internet. It would leak when it is at operating temp and pressure with the seal assembly in a dynamic condition. Just get the shim pack exactly as it was and run it. If you fill it with oil you will make it hard to paint.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on August 05, 2022, 04:23:16 AM
Thanks for your reply.  i am quite a while off sorting paint etc.  i will reassemble as all the gaskets and shims came off and when i get to the point of a test fit for everything, as it is having quite a few modifications, i will take the bike out and monitor how the bevel drive is in terms of leaks or any other nasty surprises.  if all is okay i can get on with paint etc.  cheers.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Muzz on August 06, 2022, 12:50:37 AM
Just re-reading this and I don't think I see anyone mentioning this. Some smallblocks have a vent/filler on  top.  it is vital this is free.  It was Sign 216 that first brought it to my attention 150 years ago, and mine was blocked literally from new.  A good solvent degreaser should do the job.  Although mine hadn't started leaking, now, after a good long 500km ride I now find a faint oil mist around it.  If blocked it can pressurize the rear end and encourage oil past the seal
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on August 06, 2022, 07:59:07 AM
Thanks Muzz...mine has that vent/filler and i will ensure it is able to do its job.  cheers.
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: remfanuk on August 15, 2022, 12:51:01 PM
I am just waiting on a couple of parts before buttoning up the bevel drive.  Given that I have had to clean it thoroughly to ensure no tiny tiny metal bits interfere with its running, does the large bearing (U in the relevant workshop manual diagram) need to be repacked with any grease?  same goes for the roller bearing on the hollow shaft?  thanks
Title: Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
Post by: Frenchfrog on August 15, 2022, 03:53:32 PM
Nope.