Author Topic: Bevel Drive Bolts  (Read 2794 times)

Offline lucky phil

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2022, 06:20:52 PM »
hmmm...not sure that sort of thing is necessary.

Possibly not but for a WCS.

Phil
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Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2022, 07:51:36 PM »
hmmm...not sure that sort of thing is necessary.

Again, I mean absolutely no offense.. but.. it is obvious that your experience level is not up to deciding what is and is not necessary. As Charlie says
Quote
One of the design "features" I dislike the most about the small-block rear drive. Any scratches need to be polished out before reassembly, or it'll be a leaker.
If the scratches can't be polished out, it will need a sleeve.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline lucky phil

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2022, 12:37:51 AM »
Again, I mean absolutely no offense.. but.. it is obvious that your experience level is not up to deciding what is and is not necessary. As Charlie saysIf the scratches can't be polished out, it will need a sleeve.

You read my mind Chuck but I didn't want to say anything.

Phil
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Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2022, 10:24:17 AM »
 :thumb:

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2022, 10:24:17 AM »

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2022, 06:23:14 AM »
i obviously need a new gasket for the rear drive, but i note on parts diagrams they show varying thicknesses of spacers in addition to the gasket.  when i took mine apart it seems to only have one gasket.  how to proceed?

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2022, 07:39:13 AM »
Put it back EXACTLY as it came apart. Hard to imagine it did not have a shim, but if it did not, then it did not.
If it is shimmed wrong, it won't last long.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2022, 07:45:39 AM »
yes, just a thin paper/card gasket.  with the bearing race not seated correctly i do wonder if someone has been in it before me.  it never leaked previously.  so what would you suggest in relation to thickness of spacer?  what's the purpose of them and are they also card/paper or metal?  cheers
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 08:02:32 AM by remfanuk »

Online adaven

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2022, 11:54:16 AM »
I was where you are at a couple of years ago. Despite lots of helpful advice from this forum, I made a monkey's lunch of the job. It was over my head.
I sent it to Harper's to get it done right. I am very happy with that decision.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 11:56:59 AM by adaven »

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2022, 12:08:08 PM »
i do feel a can of worms has been opened but at least havent taken much off...just need the right spacer with the gasket i can get hold of.  i am hoping that it wont leak like a sieve.

Offline pehayes

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2022, 12:59:04 PM »
yes, just a thin paper/card gasket.  with the bearing race not seated correctly i do wonder if someone has been in it before me.  it never leaked previously.  so what would you suggest in relation to thickness of spacer?  what's the purpose of them and are they also card/paper or metal?  cheers

Please inspect VERY carefully.  This rear drive should require TWO paper gaskets and one, thin steel spacer.  The paper gaskets usually stick to the casing or the cover or to the spacer.  The stuck together pieces can often look like one.  Like a very thin sandwich.  The spacer is critical to maintaining a proper position of the crown gear and thus proper engagement of the helical pinion/crown interface.  I can't imagine that the factory assembled it without any spacer.  Time for some professional expertise to set this back correctly.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2022, 01:30:38 PM »
Please inspect VERY carefully.  This rear drive should require TWO paper gaskets and one, thin steel spacer.  The paper gaskets usually stick to the casing or the cover or to the spacer.  The stuck together pieces can often look like one.  Like a very thin sandwich.  The spacer is critical to maintaining a proper position of the crown gear and thus proper engagement of the helical pinion/crown interface.  I can't imagine that the factory assembled it without any spacer.  Time for some professional expertise to set this back correctly.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

What Patrick said. Here's what you see when you open one up. As you can see, there is a gasket on each side of the shim. It has to be assembled exactly like this with the proper thickness gaskets and shim, or the life of the rear drive will be measured in minutes.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2022, 01:50:07 PM »
got it!  the spacer looked like the casing material to me...but just looked and yes the spacer is present and the gasket underneath.  i will gently lift out and measure the spacer.  thanks.

Offline pehayes

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2022, 03:32:23 PM »
i will gently lift out and measure the spacer.  thanks.

No need to measure anything.  Your spacer was selected at the factory to match the proper spacing between your cover and your casing.  You would only need to modify or test the spacer if you were changing metallic parts.  Just clean off the gaskets and use new ones.  Good to go.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2022, 04:47:28 PM »
got it!  the spacer looked like the casing material to me...but just looked and yes the spacer is present and the gasket underneath.  i will gently lift out and measure the spacer.  thanks.

Reuse that exact metal spacer.
Replace the two papers.
REUSE that metal spacer as is.
Do not use three paper gaskets. Do NOT use one paper gasket.
It is all matched to the gears. Do NOT use gasket goop or things that may modify the thickness without extreme care.

When you measure the metal gasket, the measurement will not really match the parts list. When you order a replacement part, the replacement part will not really match the parts list or the part you have. It was shimmed at the factory for that piece of metal. Stay with that piece of metal. Or you should send it off to Harpers or such. Setting it up properly is an art.


« Last Edit: July 18, 2022, 04:50:58 PM by Wayne Orwig »
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Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2022, 06:48:11 PM »
thanks guys for your help, much appreciated.  i will follow your guidance to the letter.  didn't realise the importance of the spacer to that extent.  cheers  :grin:

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #75 on: August 03, 2022, 05:55:20 AM »
still at this.  wasn't expecting that there are two metal spacers separating the paper gaskets.  diagrams don't show this and nobody in this thread mentioned it.  is this unusual?  i am still going to put it back as it was but curious.

Online Frenchfrog

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #76 on: August 03, 2022, 06:25:37 AM »
Well what you call spacers are actually shims. The bevel drive needs to be very accurately shimmed or it will go tits up rather quickly.Due to manufacturing tolerances in the case, bearings and bevels how thick a shim is correct varies so you could go from no shim ( unlikely ) to several to obtain the desired pack.
Setting one up is not for the impatient, clumsy or negligent.I'm not implying that you are any of those but it is imperative that it is done correctly or the only part worth keeping could be the casings.Charlie Cole used to be the man Stateside but he has passed.https://www.zydecoracing.com/about.html   there are surely some other engineers in the US who could accomplish the task .

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #77 on: August 03, 2022, 09:18:44 AM »
i was going to use the word shim but have seen them described as spacers too.  what i wasn't expecting was more than one of them but that's entirely feasible from what you have said.  i shall just reassemble in the way they came off as i had no leaks or issues. thanks.

Online Frenchfrog

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #78 on: August 03, 2022, 09:43:23 AM »
Good luck...if you change the bearings or the hub which the seal runs on the box will need re shimming.
You just "might ' get away with a new seal on a refreshed hub but in my experience both the hub and seal have needed replacing. And that's on a couple of drives...caused a lot of frustration having to redo every thing several times over before the leaks would finally stop.Add to which they did not immediately leak again :laugh:

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #79 on: August 03, 2022, 09:46:05 AM »
Charlie Cole used to be the man Stateside but he has passed.https://www.zydecoracing.com/about.html   

I'm not sure where you got this information, but as far as I know Charley is still alive, he's just not doing work anymore.

i was going to use the word shim but have seen them described as spacers too.  what i wasn't expecting was more than one of them but that's entirely feasible from what you have said.  i shall just reassemble in the way they came off as i had no leaks or issues. thanks.

Yes, I've seen more than one shim.
Charlie

Offline pehayes

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #80 on: August 03, 2022, 11:22:03 AM »
I'm confused.  How would two shims work?  There are paper gaskets to seal between the cover and the shim and another gasket between the shim and the case body.  With two shims you end up with a bare metal-to-metal interface and that wouldn't seem to seal for long.  You could use three gaskets, but that really starts to impact the spacing measurements.  Need more insight here.

Whatever, don't be tempted to use adhesive sealant.  You'll never get it apart again.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2022, 11:28:56 AM »
Good luck...if you change the bearings or the hub which the seal runs on the box will need re shimming.
You just "might ' get away with a new seal on a refreshed hub but in my experience both the hub and seal have needed replacing. And that's on a couple of drives...caused a lot of frustration having to redo every thing several times over before the leaks would finally stop.Add to which they did not immediately leak again :laugh:

definitely don't want to strip it any further.  chasing oils leaks is not a game i want to play  :grin:

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #82 on: August 03, 2022, 11:31:17 AM »
I'm confused.  How would two shims work?  There are paper gaskets to seal between the cover and the shim and another gasket between the shim and the case body.  With two shims you end up with a bare metal-to-metal interface and that wouldn't seem to seal for long.  You could use three gaskets, but that really starts to impact the spacing measurements.  Need more insight here.

Whatever, don't be tempted to use adhesive sealant.  You'll never get it apart again.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

i will leave the answering to this for someone more knowledgeable.  however, starting at the casing and working outwards there was a metal shim, paper gasket, metal shim and finally a paper gasket.  it was only removing the last paper gasket that it lifted up what i thought was the casing but was another metal shim.

Online Frenchfrog

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #83 on: August 03, 2022, 11:50:43 AM »
You just stack the shims with a paper gasket on either side of the stack Patrick.
The skill is getting the thickness of the stack just right

Online Antietam Classic Cycle

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #84 on: August 03, 2022, 12:21:27 PM »
I'm confused.  How would two shims work?  There are paper gaskets to seal between the cover and the shim and another gasket between the shim and the case body.  With two shims you end up with a bare metal-to-metal interface and that wouldn't seem to seal for long.  You could use three gaskets, but that really starts to impact the spacing measurements.  Need more insight here.

Whatever, don't be tempted to use adhesive sealant.  You'll never get it apart again.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

That's how my V50 III came from the factory: gasket/shim/gasket/shim/gasket. I use sealer (Permatex 300) and have no problem getting them back apart.
Charlie

Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #85 on: August 03, 2022, 01:43:50 PM »
That's how my V50 III came from the factory: gasket/shim/gasket/shim/gasket. I use sealer (Permatex 300) and have no problem getting them back apart.

interesting how there are so many variations.  so there should not be a metal shim directly on the casing?  looks like i need to order another gasket in that case.

Online n3303j

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #86 on: August 03, 2022, 03:04:10 PM »
interesting how there are so many variations.  so there should not be a metal shim directly on the casing?  looks like i need to order another gasket in that case.
Ural just stacks the paper gaskets until clearance is obtained.
(Note: I didn't say proper clearance)
It's not unusual to find a half dozen paper gaskets piled under the cover.
OTOH My '98 V11 came through with a metal to metal junction glued together with aqua green "stuff" about the consistency of epoxy.
It was a bear to disassemble and remove.
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #87 on: August 03, 2022, 03:58:00 PM »
interesting how there are so many variations.  so there should not be a metal shim directly on the casing?  looks like i need to order another gasket in that case.

The paper gasket is ALSO a part of the shimming.
Put it together exactly as it was.
If you experiment with altered shims or gaskets, assume it will have a short life.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2022, 03:58:27 PM by Wayne Orwig »
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Offline remfanuk

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #88 on: August 04, 2022, 11:30:43 AM »
mine was gasket, shim, gasket, shim.  i intend to assemble it all together and fill with oil to make sure there's no leaks before painting.

Offline John A

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Re: Bevel Drive Bolts
« Reply #89 on: August 04, 2022, 11:41:55 AM »
mine was gasket, shim, gasket, shim.  i intend to assemble it all together and fill with oil to make sure there's no leaks before painting.




That's not when it would leak.
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