Author Topic: Larios can do the elephant walk  (Read 8147 times)

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Larios can do the elephant walk
« on: October 09, 2018, 10:52:17 PM »
Pete sent me ealy Griso 8v elephant's foot rocker adjuster to try, thread is same but somehow distorted, possibly overtightened ?
So I got some ktm ones #590362000
To my eye they are identical to Guzzi ones, either should work ktm more easily found

Am waiting on new valves, all I have here have worn tips and some just odd lengths ?
Hope new oe ones are at least all the same !
When I have them I'll post if any mods needed for clearance, possible I will grind some of bottom of rocker arm away/ shorten valve/ shorten pushrod.
Any way, they can and will fit.

But
These alone will not fix lario, before anyone goes here
1/ check camshaft for wear, dial gauge on all 4 lobes, easy mount in recess on rocker arm above pushrod. If cam is worn, at all, do not pass go, stay in jail till new cam is found/ground
2/ turn engine over without plugs, look at valve springs at peak lift, coil bind is your enemy, explaining why cam gets worn.

Pete also sent me beehive spring from 1400 to test, me likee, I'm using these, pressures and installed heights to follow (need new valves to do this too)

pete roper

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2018, 11:16:42 PM »
Martin, I'm sending you a head with a couple of valves, collets and an early spring. Can you use your tester to see if the 'old' and 'new' springs are different. That'll allow you to get stack height and pressure comparisons which might answer some questions about the shims for early engines.

The head I would only use again under duress on one of my shitheap. Can you see where? :grin:

Pete

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2018, 12:27:23 AM »
Martin, I'm sending you a head with a couple of valves, collets and an early spring. Can you use your tester to see if the 'old' and 'new' springs are different. That'll allow you to get stack height and pressure comparisons which might answer some questions about the shims for early engines.

The head I would only use again under duress on one of my shitheap. Can you see where? :grin:

Pete
Will do
Let me know actual lift at valve(s) too, can measure this roller cam but don't know rocker  arm ratio
Is lift same flattie or roller ? Only has to be longer duration at peak lift to make way better grunt
Did you ever dyno before and after rollers ? Torque curve should have got way longer at near max


pete roper

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2018, 02:44:32 AM »
I’ll throw in a couple of rockers too.

Wildguzzi.com

Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2018, 02:44:32 AM »

Offline huub

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2018, 10:04:48 AM »
M6 exists in 0,7 and 0,75 thread ,
so a overtightend fit might also be a slightly different thread. they are quite hard to distinguish

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2018, 10:27:30 AM »
M6 exists in 0,7 and 0,75 thread ,
so a overtightend fit might also be a slightly different thread. they are quite hard to distinguish

Good point..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2018, 10:45:15 AM »
At some point the thread pitch changed on the 8V rockers. #879707 replaces 873850. I had a stripped one I replaced, there are 2 pitches used. Pete should know the particulars.
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pete roper

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2018, 11:02:17 AM »
Yup, I sent Martin both.

I think that the change was because the original, coarser pitch, adjusters deform in use. I don't think it's over-tightening because of where in the removal process they get difficult to extract and during routine adjustments they move just fine. Whether the deformity is down to inadequate material in the adjuster itself and this is fixed by there simply being more metal in the component with a finer thread or whether the damage occurs due to the pizzling they get as the tappets fail and they begin to get hammered I really have no clue.

Unlike smallblocks I've never actually seen one fail by snapping due to over tightening which used to be quite common back in the day. They would rarely snap when being tightened or in service but if they had previously been gorillared they would tend to twist of the top of the adjuster with the nut when you came to loosen them again. The failure point always being flush with the top of the rocker.

Pete

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2018, 03:39:59 PM »
Quote
if they had previously been gorillared they would tend to twist of the top of the adjuster with the nut when you came to loosen them again.

 :grin: That would take a serious shaved ape to do that..  I bought a used BWM R100RT one time that the previous "mechanic" decided he needed to use German torque.. Gutentight.  :smiley: I replaced a *bunch* of hardware on that one.
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Simmoto

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2018, 02:46:10 PM »

But
These alone will not fix lario, before anyone goes here
1/ check camshaft for wear, dial gauge on all 4 lobes, easy mount in recess on rocker arm above pushrod. If cam is worn, at all, do not pass go, stay in jail till new cam is found/ground
2/ turn engine over without plugs, look at valve springs at peak lift, coil bind is your enemy, explaining why cam gets worn.

Pete also sent me beehive spring from 1400 to test, me likee, I'm using these, pressures and installed heights to follow (need new valves to do this too)

I think you've got it sussed. Look forward to hearing more...need to measure my cam wear but have to get a gauge first and check out the Suzuki springs and replacement valves.Winter jobs....
 
Cheers

pete roper

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2018, 11:12:43 PM »
Martin, check yer PM's. I'll dig out a clutch and the other bits and get them off ASAP.

Interesting project if you can make it work. I think this will closely reflect the 'Gen 2' V85 I expect to appear in a couple of years. I'd prefer it if they went Hi-Cam but we'll see.

Pete

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2018, 01:00:26 AM »
Pm replied. Please get me prices too, need to order some bits
If they and I are right, no need to lose pushrods, trick is all in cam and rollers
I mentioned the Irving Vincent before in v85 discussion, open secret what's in that
http://amcn.com.au/editorial/10829/
Pushrod Power proven
Easier when you don't have Euro 4 or 5 to meet, my 8v won't either

Offline Simmoto

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2018, 10:46:48 AM »
Guys,

I measured the valve lift on the left hand pot on my Lario. I did this measuring the vertical movement of spring collar using a ruler and a hand held dial gauge that both gave similar results. 

Inlet valves (both) 6-7mm
Exhaust valves (both) 5mm

In Guzzi's Lario handbook the difference between open and closed valves seems to be 8mm and I read elsewhere stock Lario cam lift is 0.3" (7.62 mm).

They are nowhere near being coilbound! I am running Suzuki GN250 springs and stainless valves of unknown manufacture.

Do you agree it looks like the cam is knackered? I'm gonna do the other side.

I have not had the bike running long and it does seem to bog down at higher revs and lack the sparkle I thought it should have.

Thanks
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 11:08:08 AM by Simmoto »

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2018, 03:09:44 PM »
If all of this is true, I don't know what else it could be.
(thinly disguised bump)
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2018, 02:21:38 AM »
cam is toast, any perceptible wear is too much
do measure spring installed height, or post pic of rocker adj and top of valve
if ones i have are common fixes they are wrong top caps and keepers have to match



had to shorten pushrods for elephant feet
just waiting for more valve shims but mine should run this week
 booked on tas ferry december, 2 up loaded should be good test

pete roper

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2018, 03:21:49 AM »
Are you running this with roller tappets?

Offline Simmoto

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2018, 04:47:54 AM »
Not a great pic but best I could get. Uncompressed Suzuki GN250 spring looks to be 38/39mm? valves are 2 stainless originals and 2 stainless Honda car valves machined to fit (apparently).

I have ordered a later used cam from a points 650 NTX. This should be the later cam with 14mm lobes, part No. 27053362  Plan is to get Martin H in Germany to machine up some followers (they are rarer than rare) to match - unless you have a better solution - roller tappets? I'm in the hands of experts here - not been this deep in to an engine before. Is an elephant foot a roller tappet and where can I get them??  :laugh:

When I get the NTX cam how do I check for wear?  I have 10 days to decide if it's good or needs to be sent back.

Springs - is there enough length on these to stop coil bound spring? Dunno, I guess I could fit the new cam and turn by hand (only) and see what clearance there is. I read that OEM springs are 1mm from coil bound (not enough) but how much is enough? If not enough I'll need new springs and valves. Iceman (Guzzi Brian) swears by the later, progressive Guzzi spring used on 2 valves. I will ask him what their fitted length is. He uses stainless 1 piece valves he hgets from China I think but not sure of dimensions.

For general reference here's some more info on springs from some loose spare parts I have that came with the bike. Measured with a dial caliper and easier access than the measurements above so should be a bit more accurate.

Standard OEM Lario valve spring
Loose, uncompressed length in the hand 40.3 mm
Fitted to head but uncompressed 37.5 mm

Thanks



« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 02:58:31 PM by Simmoto »

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2018, 06:01:52 AM »

Quote
not been this deep in to an engine before. Is an elephant foot a roller tappet and where can I get them??

An elephant foot adjuster looks like this..instead of just having one point that touches the valve, it has a flat ground on a ball that is free to rotate in the adjuster. This keeps even contact on the valve stem. Picture stolen from a VW hp parts place.

Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Simmoto

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2018, 08:34:22 AM »
Thanks Chuck  :thumb: Always good to learn new stuff
Cheers

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2018, 06:30:26 PM »
roller followers in next one with much more fruit.
this one just blueprinted to prove there is no intrinsic problem.
only mods valve springs, adjusters and some lightening
factory valves pistons etc
time just spent checking and rechecking believe no one I. have to know

not sure about suzuki springs that pic not as bad as mine, rocker arms on mine actually worn from hitting caps.
if you can wait a week or two I will post re using cali1400 springs I am convinced they are correct but setting pressure may be trial error all I want is 500 rpm safe overev
oe lario caps machined to fit
ktm adjusters in first post

followers are refaced orig grinder happy to use. is vital to use good oil with mushroom flatties but only time will prove longevity, tappet wear will not drop valve, cam wear another story

mark 2 with rollers the proper fix but may as well go for broke, rods lighten crank pistons big carbs etc etc. After mk 1 proven

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2018, 08:40:30 AM »
 :popcorn:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

Offline Simmoto

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2018, 03:16:21 AM »
Thanks for the info. I got some more measurements from Lario Brian (Iceman on here) and his preferred springs which are OEM (outer) progressive springs used on late 2 valve models (Nevada/V7) Guzzi part No. 27037521. This spring has a free length of 43.5mm and a fully compressed length of 26mm. The stock Lario spring has a free length of 41mm and a fully compressed length of 27mm. So the progressive spring should be less likely to get coil bound than the OEM spring. This solution is proven on Brians bikes upto 8000RPM (original redline  7800).  I have found 8 new springs for cheap and intend to fit them when I change my cam. You also need the specific collets and top and bottom caps as Larios don't fit. I'll start a separate thread on this as I'll need some guidance on cam changing...HTH  :grin:

Cheers

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2018, 03:59:51 AM »
be sure to check all
installed height
full lift spring length
pressure at both. on every valve. assume nothing, shim for desired
coil bind check last, again no assumptions
“ should” never works for me


Offline Simmoto

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2018, 04:41:40 AM »
Thanks, yes I'll be checking carefully when I get to it. What dimensions are the Cali springs?

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2018, 01:18:54 AM »
Thanks, yes I'll be checking carefully when I get to it. What dimensions are the Cali springs?
conical
length 1.6”
id top .6
od top .88
id bottom .77
od bottom 1.06
me
top caps oe machined a few thou
bottom suzuki gn i think
 nevada etc bottom caps would fit not top


Buttoned it up today, elephant feet look good moving through stroke
but clearance between rockers on overlap is issue, this and rocker hitting pedestal are both things previous fixers did not address. odd, one of my 5 rocker sets needed no work, unmarked by anyone so could have been a qc issue from time. The other four kissed and crashed, scars to prove
fixed with dremel and file






Offline Simmoto

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2018, 01:52:06 AM »
 :thumb:
Rocker hitting the pedestal - that is a new one, I've not looked but will now, time to buy some Rizzla papers.

Don't understand the clearance between rockers on overlap? So you mean left and right rockers rub/hit each other?

I have lash caps that were part of Guzzi's upgrade on post 87 (?) Larios; intend to use them with Yamaha adjusters

Cheers

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2018, 02:29:45 AM »
:thumb:
Rocker hitting the pedestal - that is a new one, I've not looked but will now, time to buy some Rizzla papers.

Don't understand the clearance between rockers on overlap? So you mean left and right rockers rub/hit each other?

I have lash caps that were part of Guzzi's upgrade on post 87 (?) Larios; intend to use them with Yamaha adjusters

Cheers
inlet and exhaust not left and right
could be only some but 4 of 5 show rub

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2018, 10:51:34 PM »
up and running,  tickety boo, revs to moon, now only time will prove how long for but I am confident, first 100 miles awesome
pics for chuck, just looks like a v50 with funny  plumbing!!





Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2018, 11:06:13 PM »
Looks fine to me, nice pipes(Dr. J  style).  Congrats on the finish.
"Pray through Carlo & your bike shall be healed"
Location: Planet Earth

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Larios can do the elephant walk
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2018, 05:48:42 AM »
Attaboy, Martin.. :thumb: I *like* the character of the Lario engine. Hopefully, you've put the pin back in the grenade.. :smiley:
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
87 AeroLario
95 Skorpion tour
22 Royal Enfield Classic 3 fiddy
 "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
Albert Einstein

 

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