Author Topic: want my 2014-guzzi v7 special to run fatter - and need a cheap solution...  (Read 21140 times)

harryzet

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dear all
greetings from austria :-)
my problem: i have a 2014 guzzi v7 special - but as you will know, it runs on the very lean side. i have installed k+n airfilter and an open exhaust and want the bike to run fatter, without spending a fortune for remapping (which is btw not available in austria), new ecu or the like. i am quite experienced in soldering cables, though. do any of you have a cheap solution, like soldering in a resistor in some cables leading to the ecu or something like this? any help appreciated. and sorry for my english :-(

harald

« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 02:38:07 AM by harryzet »

Vasco DG

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Take off all the horrible shit you've put on it and it will run nicely. None of the horrible shit will make it any faster and you yourself have found that it was a waste of money that made your bike run like crap.

Eventually I hope, with the aid of others cleverer than I, to be able to find a way of cracking the issue of re-mapping so that the bike can be made to run better than it does but it will STILL RUN BETTER WITH THE STOCK AIR FILTER AND IF YOU WANT A DIFFERENT EXHAUST AT LEAST RUN IT WITH A dB KILLER BECAUSE THE ENGINE WILL RUN BETTER.

Rexxer have cracked the coding but if you want a proper map built you will need it to be custom built. There is one other option but knowing what is involved in the 'Reflashes' sold there I wouldn't recommend it as an option.

While not certain I would guess that the stock maps are rich, not lean. Turning off the Lamda will result in overfuelling in most areas. This is the way it is with almost all previous WM ECU's with narrow band O2 sensor control. While the MUIG3 controller is different I wouldn't expect the basic premise to be different. I could be wrong. I doubt it.

Pete

harryzet

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i have a db-killer installed. but thats not the topic. i just want to find a cheap solution, so that it runs fatter. it has also stalled when it was in factory condition, so thats not the problem

Vasco DG

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Yup, so it's not set up right or has an underlying problem.

With the greatest of respect I cannot see why people want to make a V7 noisy or try to extract more 'Power' out of it! The design of the heads precludes easy, useful, gains in outright power. The main aim seems to be to make the machine *Sound* something other than what it is. That also seems to tie in with being a noisy oaf who can irritate other people so that they can be 'Looked At'.

Look, if that's important for you? Go fer your life! I just think its a silly, annoying, waste of money that will eventually impact on my enjoyment of motorcycling as it will encourage the enactment of poorly thought out and crappy laws by populist governments. I think it's puerile and it sucks.

Pete

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Offline sib

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Vasco, I'm surprised at your snappy disposition today, usually you're much mellower.  Hemorrhoids acting up, I'd guess.   ;D
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i have a db-killer installed. but thats not the topic. i just want to find a cheap solution, so that it runs fatter. it has also stalled when it was in factory condition, so thats not the problem

Maybe some background information will help.

First, Pete is worried about shortcuts like Oxygen Sensor foolers which he has seen on some Guzzi models cause over-fueling to the point of washing the oil off the cylinder walls and seizing the motor.

Secondly, Pete is, in his delicate Australian way (meaning even less subtle than a fat American tourist with socks and sandals) is trying to tell you that we've seen people piss away money and effort trying to get more horsepower out of a smallblock and generally fail.

Some people here in the states have had the Rexxer remap on bikes with slightly modified intake/exhaust and have seen something like only 1-2 hp additional on the dyno.

Pete is basically of the opinion, and I generally share it despite the almost mass hysteria of motorcycle owners who quickly rush to modify their brand new bikes to "run better", that there is nothing wrong with an EFI bike running a little hotter and leaner than it's carbureted predecessors. As a matter of fact there is some evidence (again Pete has seen) that these bikes are generally designed to cool so efficiently that OVERCOOLING can be an issue (he's seen seized motors where the oil was moisture contaminated in cool/damp climates/conditions).

As for "stalling" - you'll have to give us more info. At least in the US a number of us have found that the modern single-throttle body (1TB) Smallblocks can be a bit fussy after a cold start. I've found that I generally need to let it idle for a minute or two or I will likely stall. But once I'm past that point the bike runs absolutely fine all day.

I BELIEVE the issue of the cold starts is NOT lean mixture, so much as the ride-by-wire system attempting to maintain a steady idle either with throttle and/or ignition timing changes. As a matter of fact, it starts to easily I cannot imagine it is anywhere NEAR lean at that point in the fuel mapping/running cycle.

SUMMARY:

* DON'T modify it expect more power or much different performance
* DON'T use cheap 02 sensor fooling devices (resistors)
* DON'T worry about it running like a lean modern bike.
* DON'T expect to open the exhaust completely and for it to not run like a turd (unless perhaps you go Rexxer)


Now if you've got some other stalling issue, then bring it up and perhaps someone can be of help, but generally speaking these new models shouldn't require much of anything, unless something is broken.
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harryzet

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dear all, i appreciate all your help. sorry that i didnt make it clear: i do NOT look for more power. but i am pissed off by the bikes behaviour, be it with or without k+n/different exhaust. you see: i live in the middle of vienna and on my way to work etc i have to stop at about 20 crossings and traffic lights. on some of them, the motor stops running  and generally it is a unpleasant ride in the 15-40 km/h region, until the motor has reached temperature. so i just want to run the v7 fatter to stop stalling. i dont need more power, the guzzi has enough for my kind of driving.

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dear all, i appreciate all your help. sorry that i didnt make it clear: i do NOT look for more power. but i am pissed off by the bikes behaviour, be it with or without k+n/different exhaust. you see: i live in the middle of vienna and on my way to work etc i have to stop at about 20 crossings and traffic lights. on some of them, the motor stops running  and generally it is a unpleasant ride in the 15-40 km/h region, until the motor has reached temperature. so i just want to run the v7 fatter to stop stalling. i dont need more power, the guzzi has enough for my kind of driving.

Something is wrong then. Once mine gets past the initial minute or two of running it almost NEVER stalls (maybe it has stalled once or twice in almost 8,000 miles, and those times it was probably something stupid I did).

Start with the basics, make sure valve adjustment is good. Then have a dealer hook it up and check for the latest map.

After that I'd start to wonder if the combination TB unit/ECM has a minor fault.

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Vasco DG

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And take the fuqueknuckle, poxy, aftermarket air filter out! Then re-set the trims, (On a W5AM bike you can do this by simply disconnecting the battery. Try it.) and ride it for a few hours. It'll ro ably trim itself reasonably good!

Pete

Offline sib

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I'm basically with Kev m.  My '13 Stone had a cold idle problem when I first got it but a factory re-flash to the current version fixed it.  Now my bike almost never stalls, sputters, hesitates, or anything else.  It just runs well.
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I'm basically with Kev m.  My '13 Stone had a cold idle problem when I first got it but a factory re-flash to the current version fixed it.  Now my bike almost never stalls, sputters, hesitates, or anything else.  It just runs well.

That reminds me, I really gotta get that reflash done.

CAM - we gonna plan a ride up to Coopersburg Eurosports for that one of these days?
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Online Cam3512

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That reminds me, I really gotta get that reflash done.

CAM - we gonna plan a ride up to Coopersburg Eurosports for that one of these days?

Yes.  I'll call up there and see if we can make an appointment to have two bikes hooked up to get the latest map.  Make a day outta it.
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Offline kevdog3019

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I'd look into the re-flash first.  Messing with the stock set-up will change things for certain, but if it did it before the changes...

I know you're not interested, but you CAN change a SB engines production even with these flat-top pistons, but it takes a bit O' money and tear-down.  Significantly.... umm... fairly, yes.
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Offline rocker59

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Valve Clearances?

The only time I've had Guzzis stall at idle when warm was when the clearances were too tight.
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LongRanger

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And from deep in left field, could it be a clutch that's not completely disengaging? OP mentioned that it dies at stops.

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And from deep in left field, could it be a clutch that's not completely disengaging? OP mentioned that it dies at stops.

Not a bad thought as that's a common problem with these if not set up properly. Though I would think he'd also complain about difficult shifting at low speeds or stopped if that was the case.
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harryzet

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it stalls when cold only, but as i have to pass 10-20 traffic light until its warm i need to have it run fatter. once the bike is warm, it runs good

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it stalls when cold only, but as i have to pass 10-20 traffic light until its warm i need to have it run fatter. once the bike is warm, it runs good
Unless you've done a tail pipe sniff (air fuel ratio) don't assume it's too lean.
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Offline rocker59

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it stalls when cold only, but as i have to pass 10-20 traffic light until its warm i need to have it run fatter. once the bike is warm, it runs good

How long do you let it warm up between starting and departing on your commute?

What are your valve clearances? 
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harryzet

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i start, put on the gloves and drive away. the bike had a service so i think the valves are ok

Offline JeffOlson

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What about the Fat Duc O2 Manipulator?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 02:53:32 PM by JeffOlson »
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1) i start, put on the gloves and drive away.

2) the bike had a service so i think the valves are ok


1) In my experience with the V7 bikes, they need a little longer to warm when first started, or they'll stall at the first stop sign, or two.  You might consider letting it idle another minute, or so, before pulling out.

2) Just because "the bike has had a service" does not mean the valves are in spec.  Don't ask me how I know.  If it were my bike, I would check them and set them to the loose side of the recommended settings.  Your dealer may, or may not have checked them.  Your dealer may, or may not have set them correctly if he checked them.

I think you'll find others here at WG will agree with these two points.

And, you said you wanted "fast and cheap".  These two things cost you nothing in money, and not much in time.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 03:37:18 PM by rocker59 »
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Offline malik

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The only time I can remember my (twin throttle body) V7 stalling in traffic was when the locknuts on the throttle cables down at the throttle body end had loosened themselves off, and the idle would go under 1,000rpm. Then, a bit of clutch would induce a stall. Of course, the loose nuts were the last things I found, hidden as they are behind that pretty cover.

In the beginning it did need a cold start routine - "choke", ignition, a few minutes running, "choke" off, ride away. I do seem to remember the bike being reluctant to run smoothly at low revs for the first few minutes in the early days, but that gradually improved with use. After 15,000k it wasn't so much of a problem & after 30,000k I haven't used the "choke" at all. Start it up, ride away. At 120,000k I now have other problems, but that's not one of them.

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Vasco DG

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What about the Fat Duc O2 Manipulator?

Why? So he can add another piece of crap that might damage his engine? He'd need two as well so it wouldn't be cheap.

The simple, cheap, sollution would be to remove all the crap and tune it properly but I can see that isn't going to happen so I'll bow out of this one.

Pete

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What about the Fat Duc O2 Manipulator?
I already explained earlier why Pete thinks that's a bad idea.
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Offline JeffOlson

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I already explained earlier why Pete thinks that's a bad idea.

With all due respect, one instance of too much gasoline washing the cylinders clean of oil does not make a trend. Have not other owners of V7s (and other Moto Guzzis) had success with this cheap and easy option?

I guess I am just frustrated with the negativity associated with the topic of modifications. In the Triumph Modern Classics world, modifications are cheap and easy and, perhaps more importantly, encouraged. Here, they are poo-pooed. Why is that? Are very few Moto Guzzi owners willing to modify their bikes?
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Vasco DG

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I'm not anti modifying. I'm anti modifying by people who don't understand how stuff works and then piss and moan and blame the bike or manufacturer when they screw it up.

I'll bet that 95% of the modified Triumphs you describe run like a three legged donkey with a broom handle up its arse too.

Pete

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Re:
« Reply #27 on: April 21, 2015, 04:49:57 PM »
I believe Todd Eagan of Guzzitech also warned early on of seeing negative effects with FatDuc type coolers specifically on the new 1tb models.

But if you or someone else wants to run a test with a pair of them I've got a pair available for that purpose free to the tester.

I've decided against running the test myself.

I'll not get into a pissing contest of Triumph or anything else vs. Guzzi. But I'll say that the more popular the brand the more options there are for upgrades (and cheaper the options).

Probably the king of such things is Harley because of not only the huge market but the purposeful decision by the MoCo to leave easy power on the table.

I'll say that generally the other brands I've been involved with all benefited less from such modifications (smaller % of HP gains) probably because the OEMs left less easy power on the table than Harley. So that plays a part in it.

Still there are easy reflashes or maps available for the CARC bikes (B11, Norge, Griso, Stelvio).

It's just there's not much yet available for the 1TB bikes (Cali 1400 and V7s).

And to make matters more complicated on the V7s, the head design severely limits what you might gain.

So we don't poo on everything, but try to be realistic about what is available and what might be gained with a few models.
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Offline JeffOlson

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I'll bet that 95% of the modified Triumphs you describe run like a three legged donkey with a broom handle up its arse too.

I would take that bet. Triumph itself makes Arrow pipes and silencers an approved option and even includes an ECU re-map as part of the deal so the bike will run as well after the modification as it did before. (My Thruxton certainly runs just as well, despite using freer-flowing British Customs "silencers" instead of Arrow cans.)

I dare say some people are not looking for more power when they install an after-market can. They are looking for something that sounds better to them.

But I come back to this: why not encourage people to experiment with their bikes? So what if they screw it up? It's a bike! It can be fixed.

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Offline Kent in Upstate NY

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He might want something like this. <iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/qqpcBpSsj1A?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
« Last Edit: April 21, 2015, 06:18:17 PM by Kent in Tehachapi »
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