Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Dirk_S on September 10, 2022, 11:13:06 PM
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Last Saturday I was riding home from Maine with my 275 lb friend in my 200 lb sidecar. We did a good bit of secondary highways, not going any faster than 65mph. Sometimes there were some long uphills, but I didn’t usually go over 60 mph up them. Kept the rig between 4500-7000 rpm. Then I got a low oil light and heard a slight but peculiar, metal tinging sound. Pulled over right away. Dipstick read bottom line. Thankfully had some reserve oil in a 1L bottle, and poured it in. Started up and on our way. Within 1 mile, the metal chatter got a little louder. Sounded like it was on the right side, but wasn’t positive since the sidecar might be amplifying and ricocheting the sound. Within 2 miles, the bike shut down on me. Next day, I trailered it home.
Compression test on both cylinders read 180 psi both sides.
Leakdown test today:
Left side = at 75 psi, the cylinder read only 1 psi lost in the cylinder.
Right side = different story—at 75 psi, the cylinder read 63 psi for a 15% loss. I heard air coming out of the engine oil filler hole as well as through the throttle body. Intake leak, it seems?
I checked my valve clearances on the right side— still reading 0.15mm intake, 0.20mm exhaust, just as it did when I set them 2000 miles ago.
I pulled off the cylinder head. Guess I’ve been running pretty rich:
(https://i.ibb.co/rkVffLM/A061-D2-B0-203-E-497-E-A457-A057-D35825-D4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rkVffLM)
(https://i.ibb.co/mCMGdyF/FE907-A65-AA9-B-4-AAD-BC45-E9-D4-C7-D3-CB0-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mCMGdyF)
Dropped the sump. Uh oh. Lots of metal flakes, both gray and copper/bronze colored:
(https://i.ibb.co/CWX5Z4G/0000-B6-AC-AF77-45-C0-B705-8-C249-EF01-DCD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CWX5Z4G)
(https://i.ibb.co/vLtdz46/D174-A38-B-742-B-4-DC4-9229-44484-B1-B3-B36.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vLtdz46)
Drained the gearbox, minor metal amount, tiny granules, and not a lot, I think it’s normal.
Decided to go ahead and remove the cylinder and piston. Cylinders didn’t appear to really have any scoring. But the piston connect rod does move a few mm, maybe 5mm, up and down the crank shaft. Should it shift along the shaft at all? Saw some metal flakes sticking around inside the crankcase as well. Guess we’re gonna have a drop-down, clean-up job.
Thoughts? Main bearings look like they might be gray? Wondering what’s the copper color from?
Potentially important note: 3000 miles ago I replaced the clutch with the help of a custom bike builder, neither of us ever had a Guzzi motor opened up in front of our eyes before, but he had auto mechanic experience, and once he saw it looked like an auto style block/clutch, he was game to help. Since replacing the clutch, pushrod, thrust bearing, and oil seal back then, I’ve never once felt the need to adjust the clutch, so my limited knowledge feels somewhat confident that the clutch replacement may not be the cause…I hope.
I really wish I had a mechanic for a friend at this point.
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Ouch
Sorry for your loss…that seems pretty destructive
On the bright side we’re getting tons of used V7’s coming up for sale used
Buy a motor and slap it in? I’m not sure rebuilding would be cost effective…I’d hate to see just the parts cost to repair
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Ouch
Sorry for your loss…that seems pretty destructive
On the bright side we’re getting tons of used V7’s coming up for sale used
Buy a motor and slap it in? I’m not sure rebuilding would be cost effective…I’d hate to see just the parts cost to repair
:thumb:
Fixing motors that have run dry of oil always involves more than just the big end that’s knocking
You also get plenty of spares to use or help others with
V7 850 motor might come up cheap
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I’m willing to bet that I didn’t do a good enough job keeping up on the oil, especially considering that I ride in all conditions, more aggressive terrain, and now have a Sidecar attached. I was told by my nearest dealer a couple years ago that I should split my fluid replacement intervals in half.
I don’t mind doing this work if I have to and IF it’s doable. No garage, so yeah, I’d be bringing it in onto the kitchen table. BUT, seeing that I’ve never done this before, I know I’ll need to be aware of steps that need to be super precise. I imagine balancing the crankshaft is no easy job. And making sure that every single metal flake is out of the crank case so as not to impede oil passage. My 300,000+ mile, former warranty service associate at a BMW dealership friend told me that the balancing and bathing to get all the debris out are not great kitchen table jobs.
Unfortunately, a lot of those V7 IIs have the undersized crankshaft, which makes the point moot, I imagine.
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Not too sure I understand your phrasing about 'moving up and down the crankshaft' ? Is this front to back or
up and down ? The latter is really bad ! Peter
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Not too sure I understand your phrasing about 'moving up and down the crankshaft' ? Is this front to back or
up and down ?
Sorry—fore and aft, sliding.
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Here--------Bolt up--------------
https://pinwallcycle.com/product_info.php?products_id=45553057
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Can’t guarantee that the frame mounts are exactly the same. Plus, I’d have to get a new air box m, throttle body and exhaust, at the very least. Remember, mine’s the last of the heron head, not one of the hemis
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Fingers crossed you can get that sorted.
Would be a sad waste since you put so much effort into that very nice V7 II.
Cheers,
D.
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After chatting it up with a few mechanic friends, and reading your thoughts, I don’t have the money for a rebuild job, and I don’t see any good V7 II motors available. Just listed it. And salty liquid escaped my eye.
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After chatting it up with a few mechanic friends, and reading your thoughts, I don’t have the money for a rebuild job, and I don’t see any good V7 II motors available. Just listed it. And salty liquid escaped my eye.
I’m sorry Dirk.
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That sucks… so sorry.
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I’m sorry Dirk.
Not sure how many miles you had on your 2016 V-7ii? Still sounds like the same crank issue as all the other lucky ones. I still have not got a answer from Guzzi my 2000 mile engine in my Stornello.. (Crank thrust issue) Once it happened I went right to ebay and picked up a good 4000 mile 2016 Vii
If Guzzi helps me on my engine..(50/50 chance I would think) I will have one engine the good engine for sale. You can have first crack at it, and fo what I paid.. $1089.00 Just a thought...
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Not sure how many miles you had on your 2016 V-7ii? Still sounds like the same crank issue as all the other lucky ones. I still have not got a answer from Guzzi my 2000 mile engine in my Stornello.. (Crank thrust issue) Once it happened I went right to ebay and picked up a good 4000 mile 2016 Vii
If Guzzi helps me on my engine..(50/50 chance I would think) I will have one engine the good engine for sale. You can have first crack at it, and fo what I paid.. $1089.00 Just a thought...
I have 33,000 miles on my bike. With so many miles, I’m leaning toward the cause centering around me not doing a good enough job managing engine lubrication. There have been a couple times where I’ve run low, and the one instance early this spring where I filled too much.
I’d be very interested in your offer. I’ll shoot you a PM.
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I have a couple promising leads to a replacement motor. Trying to jump on whichever one I can get ahold of first without breaking the bank.
One of the potential purchases is a V7 II motor that had the infamous crankshaft issue. There’s also a used crankshaft available on eBay taken off a salvage bike. Assuming this bike didn’t suffer that bad batch issue, I figure I could purchase the crankshaft, new bearings, and put it all together myself, right? That said, I’m not fully sure on what I’m doing. Would I have to rebalance the crankshaft, and at what point? Are there other clearances, specs etc., not found in the service manual that I’d have to be mindful of? Anyone have any good links for home engine repair?
Thanks!
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If I remember correctly it's the thrust bearing/shim that was not right on those engines. Seen a similar failure on a v 50 many years ago and custom shims were made after the crankcase was checked and cleaned up where it locates.All doable but not simple and maybe not successful in the medium to long term.I lost sight of that bike ( a mates) shortly after the fix was done so can't advise more than that.
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I have a couple promising leads to a replacement motor. Trying to jump on whichever one I can get ahold of first without breaking the bank.
One of the potential purchases is a V7 II motor that had the infamous crankshaft issue. There’s also a used crankshaft available on eBay taken off a salvage bike. Assuming this bike didn’t suffer that bad batch issue, I figure I could purchase the crankshaft, new bearings, and put it all together myself, right? That said, I’m not fully sure on what I’m doing. Would I have to rebalance the crankshaft, and at what point? Are there other clearances, specs etc., not found in the service manual that I’d have to be mindful of? Anyone have any good links for home engine repair?
Thanks!
No, you should not have to rebalance the crank. These technical training videos may help. The B750 isn't much different than your engine.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_technical_training_videos_eng.html
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If I remember correctly it's the thrust bearing/shim that was not right on those engines.
I’ve chatted with a few respectful dealers that we all know and love, and there doesn’t appear to be complete agreement as far as what exactly went wrong. Some say undersized crank. Needless to say, once put back together, I may ride it for another year, but not much longer.
No, you should not have to rebalance the crank. These technical training videos may help. The B750 isn't much different than your engine.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_technical_training_videos_eng.html
Thanks, Charlie. I keep forgetting that Greg has service videos uploaded.
Before purchasing a new (or gently used) crankshaft, I guess I can inspect mine. Is it easy to tell if a crankshaft is damaged? Score marks? Do I only worry about severe scoring, or are scratches that I can’t even feel going to be troublesome?
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I’ve chatted with a few respectful dealers that we all know and love, and there doesn’t appear to be complete agreement as far as what exactl. Some say undersized crank. Needless to say, once put back together, I may ride it for another year, but not much longer.
Thanks, Charlie. I keep forgetting that Greg has service videos uploaded.
Before purchasing a new (or gently used) crankshaft, I guess I can inspect mine. Is it easy to tell if a crankshaft is damaged? Score marks? Do I only worry about severe scoring, or are scratches that I can’t even feel going to be troublesome?
The crankshaft should not have any scoring, minor scratches can be polished out. It should be measured precisely, to make sure it's still within specification.
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Replacement motor purchased.
Please. The cheering is deafening. Calm down.
Jim Hamlin sold me the bad batch motor that he’s been holding onto. Almost bought one from Cadre Cycle, both offered at very reasonable prices, but I can obviously shave a few dollars and take a 4.5 hour sight-seeing tour down beautiful US Rt 84 <*sarcasm*> to pick it up. Heading down tomorrow.
Since it’s one of the bad batch cranks, I’ll have to replace the crankshaft.
Next step, purchase bearings / seals / bolts, and start disassembling.
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Congrats!
-AJ
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Minor updates:
I’ll follow the engine service manual and tech videos and measure the crankshaft, con-rods, bearings, etc….or find someone to do it if it feels too daunting.
Charlie (Antietam Cycle) has been quite helpful.
Hamlin invited me to eat lunch with him and the rest of the shop mates when I arrived to pick up the engine. Goddang sweethearts they are.
Hoping to drop the engine this weekend. Picked up a used motor on Saturday. Unfortunately, it’s one of those bad batch engines with the undersized crankshaft, so I won’t be using that part. If the crankshaft from my bike is also bad, I have another used crankshaft on its way to me via ebay as a hopeful backup.
Converting the kitchen into a workshop. I’m often single, and I just realized I should’ve done this much sooner. Make your space work for you, they say.
Main bearings, big end bearings, thrust washers, rod bolts, oil seal, and piston rings all ordered (cost more than the donor engine off eBay!). Most are on backorder through AF1, estimated 6-8 week delivery (oh these Italian machines).
Now to start studying, getting acquainted with the entire process, and gathering the tools necessary for the task.
And yes—I do realize that there’s a high chance that a naive amateur such as myself might think I have it all together and in spec, and install the engine and turn her on, only to hear chakka chakka chakka chakka BLURBADA BLURBADA BLURBA RETCHETA RETCHETA PBBBBBBTTTTttt.
…but Danger wouldn’t be my middle name if I wouldn’t try.
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And yes—I do realize that there’s a high chance that a naive amateur such as myself might think I have it all together and in spec, and install the engine and turn her on, only to hear chakka chakka chakka chakka BLURBADA BLURBADA BLURBA RETCHETA RETCHETA PBBBBBBTTTTttt.
So that means everything is running right then? : :evil:
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DUDE, You're going through all this trouble and Mark Etheridge just bought a brand new crate motor for a 2016 Racer for only $2500!?!
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DUDE, You're going through all this trouble and Mark Etheridge just bought a brand new crate motor for a 2016 Racer for only $2500!?!
Mark has more money than me at the moment. Funds are tight thanks to the other work I’ve had done (and the sidecar stuff).
If I take my time, this rebuild will cost under $1300 and bump my knowledge and experience up.
I was going to post progress and pics, but if folks just think I’m an idiot for doing so, I’ll refrain and keep the excitement to myself.
I’m curious how others expand their capabilities.
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Mark has more money than me at the moment.
Funds are tight thanks to the other work I’ve had done (and the sidecar stuff).
If I take my time, this rebuild will cost under $1300 and bump my knowledge and experience up.
BTDT - good luck and keep posting....
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JMHO, I don't think they designed the bottom end to be rebuilt on the V7. I hope it works for you.
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JMHO, I don't think they designed the bottom end to be rebuilt on the V7. I hope it works for you.
Vagrant, could you elaborate? Do you mean from a logistic / technical angle, or just cost / worth the time?
Watching the 750 Nevada tech videos posted on Greg’s site, I’m not seeing anything that stands out to my admittedly less-than-experienced eyes as not doable at home. Certainly, I’ll have to make sure that I take some careful measurements, but that’s not unlike other engine rebuilds.
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Good Luck to ya, lad!
-Stretch
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On all smallblocks they make 1 bearing or wear shim (that's all you get) crank sits in block halves. Once worn out of new limits it's toast. Same with end play once past limit of new shim (crank worn) weld it up & turn it to new spec. If block is worn it's toast.
It is not like a big block with different size mains.
Then there's the oil pump and all went through it--
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On all smallblocks they make 1 bearing or wear shim (that's all you get) crank sits in block halves. Once worn out of new limits it's toast. Same with end play once past limit of new shim (crank worn) weld it up & turn it to new spec. If block is worn it's toast.
It is not like a big block with different size mains.
But I assume if the crank and block are good, he can replace the bearings and check clearances yes?
Vagrant, could you elaborate? Do you mean from a logistic / technical angle, or just cost / worth the time?
Watching the 750 Nevada tech videos posted on Greg’s site, I’m not seeing anything that stands out to my admittedly less-than-experienced eyes as not doable at home. Certainly, I’ll have to make sure that I take some careful measurements, but that’s not unlike other engine rebuilds.
He MIGHT be confusing the V7II with the V7III, the crankshaft and bearings are notably absent from the V7III parts book suggesting they are not available.
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Yes, but is the rod stamped steel also like the new 85 v7?
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But I assume if the crank and block are good, he can replace the bearings and check clearances yes?
He MIGHT be confusing the V7II with the V7III, the crankshaft and bearings are notably absent from the V7III parts book suggesting they are not available.
Yes Kev, should be good in a perfect world.
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Yes, but is the rod stamped steel also like the new 85 v7?
I don’t think so?
(https://i.ibb.co/tBgwRRk/BBFB845-B-378-E-4-FF4-BBB1-E712-D1-A35507.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tBgwRRk)
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Yes, but is the rod stamped steel also like the new 85 v7?
I haven't gotten it all straight yet but back with the V7 MkI and V7II the crank is replaceable and the con rods use bolted big ends with replaceable bearings.
I feel like someone said starting with the V7III or maybe a later V7 they went to pressed cranks. That doesn't necessarily mean the rods are non-replaceable but they could be. Again the fact that there's no crank/rod assembly in the parts book for the V7III doesn't give me warm and fuzzies about such.
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Con rods appear to be replaceable:
V7 II Parts diagram:
(https://i.ibb.co/NrWzY32/42505709-CF67-4777-9148-C2-DA805-D0-DE2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NrWzY32)
V7 III:
(https://i.ibb.co/ypzytVT/CC451-ACF-4797-4-AE4-A7-C8-BAE9-DC15151-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ypzytVT)
I was planning to measure both mine and those from the donor engine, hoping at least two if not all still measure within spec
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The thrust washers in the pics are from a motor that died. If you look close you can see how badly worn out the ONE washer is. The other washer is the mangled bit of metal just to the right of the worn one. Oddly enough, the mangled one was much thicker than the worn out one that was still in position.
Clickey on the picey.
(https://i.ibb.co/tCr1cWz/20220628-115059.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tCr1cWz) (https://i.ibb.co/GHHmWX7/20220628-115044.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GHHmWX7) (https://i.ibb.co/yPJTPpS/20220628-132440.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yPJTPpS)
Tom
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The thrust washers in the pics are from a motor that died. If you look close you can see how badly worn out the ONE washer is. The other washer is the mangled bit of metal just to the right of the worn one. Oddly enough, the mangled one was much thicker than the worn out one that was still in position.
Clickey on the picey.
(https://i.ibb.co/tCr1cWz/20220628-115059.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tCr1cWz) (https://i.ibb.co/GHHmWX7/20220628-115044.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GHHmWX7) (https://i.ibb.co/yPJTPpS/20220628-132440.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yPJTPpS)
Tom
And...?
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I guess that if his old ones looked anything like the pics, no need to measure the old ones.
Tom
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I guess that if his old ones looked anything like the pics, no need to measure the old ones.
Thanks Tom. I’m planning to replace all the old bearings with new ones.
Were the shaft and crankcase still good in that instance? I’m a little nervous—with so many flakes in my crankcase, I’m really hoping the crankcase wasn’t damaged, either to mine or the donor engine.
Footnote: Looks like the same thrust bearings continue to be used in the new 850s, so they clearly figured the design was not faulty through this Great (V7 II Crankshaft) Recession.
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I looked at the parts books one more time, and noticed that they changed the crankshaft partway through the V7 III. The V7 III Special shows 2 different assemblies—the former, similar to my year, has parts that can be purchased individually:
(https://i.ibb.co/jLqG2bj/21-B0-CA67-30-B9-4957-9-D9-A-EB3865136047.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jLqG2bj)
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I looked at the parts books one more time, and noticed that they changed the crankshaft partway through the V7 III. The V7 III Special shows 2 different assemblies—the former, similar to my year, has parts that can be purchased individually:
(https://i.ibb.co/jLqG2bj/21-B0-CA67-30-B9-4957-9-D9-A-EB3865136047.jpg) (https://ibb.co/jLqG2bj)
That's the pressed crank to which I was referring.
I also wonder if the old style crank REALLY was used on an Hemi heads or if the literature just lagged behind actual changes.
IF IT WAS used AND THE BLOCK is the same, it might suggest that a newer bike could use an older crank.
But there's a lot of things that have to be the same for that to work, including the piston pins for the two different pistons (heron head and hemi head).
Anything is possible though it just seems unlikely.
<shrugs>
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That's the pressed crank to which I was referring.
I also wonder if the old style crank REALLY was used on an Hemi heads or if the literature just lagged behind actual changes.
Nah. Different part numbers.
I didn’t mean to suggest they were the same, but simply that they were available individually, similar to previous models. Here are the V7 II crankshaft parts for reference:
(https://i.ibb.co/r2XYMmP/18-DE6865-C17-D-4-B6-F-8-DC3-E498192-E8-EE0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r2XYMmP)
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Nah. Different part numbers.
I didn’t mean to suggest they were the same, but simply that they were available individually, similar to previous models. Here are the V7 II crankshaft parts for reference:
(https://i.ibb.co/r2XYMmP/18-DE6865-C17-D-4-B6-F-8-DC3-E498192-E8-EE0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r2XYMmP)
Ahhhh, looking closer is interesting.
So they went through the trouble of a new crankshaft for the Hemi models which includes a selection of main and rod bearings in different sizes, then they continued to use the same dimensions for the mains and simply switched to a pressed crank (meaning you lost ability to service the rods/rod bearings).
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Gotcha—so the big end doesn’t split apart in the later models. And mine is in the clear with regard to rebuildable, albeit with only one size bearings all around.
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A lot of other makes have used pressed together cranks. Currently, Harley as an example, which are serviceble. Why isn't the pressed MG crank able to be taken apart, damaged parts replaced and pressed back together? It was and is standard practice with two stroke engines.
kk
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A lot of other makes have used pressed together cranks. Currently, Harley as an example, which are serviceble. Why isn't the pressed MG crank able to be taken apart, damaged parts replaced and pressed back together? It was and is standard practice with two stroke engines.
kk
To be clear I'm sure it can be taken apart.
BUT the parts books show no replacement parts, so I suspect the OEM is considering it unserviceable.
DAMN seconds too late lol.
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The inside of the block "looked" OK. The outside not so good. The case at the rear main and the cam plug were being eaten away at.
(https://i.ibb.co/XxdQ46q/20220621-163253.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XxdQ46q)
Tom
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You think the small number of bikes MG builds gets a dedicated crank bearing set up? Or perhaps they are off the shelf items used by another manufacturer of bikes or whatever?
Thinking of the future for Guzzi...
when the supply of Triumph 650-750 rod bearings got thin..Some Triumph guys got Mahle to manafactue new Clevite 77 type bearing shells in their modern USA factory...The retail price of about 70 bucks for two rods is quite reasonable considering the low sales....
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The inside of the block "looked" OK. The outside not so good. The case at the rear main and the cam plug were being eaten away at.
(https://i.ibb.co/XxdQ46q/20220621-163253.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XxdQ46q)
Tom
I can’t tell from the photo, but if there is still sufficient metal for the rear main seal to press in and seal well I’m not sure I’d worry about it
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You could fit a new main seal, but the cam plug was the concern. That and the end float of the crank :grin:
Tom
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Motor dropped and in the kitch—I mean, my new workshop.
(https://i.ibb.co/FBvp7Rc/1-B6-DC170-EA9-B-4244-A461-4-AAD2-E27-A2-E6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FBvp7Rc)
(https://i.ibb.co/0MwXVvC/15065-E79-4-A68-4205-9871-2-B5835614-E5-B.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0MwXVvC)
Next step—clean up the workspace before beginning tear-down.
PS—I broke one of the plastic nipples off the evap canister… making me consider doing away with it and replacing with a catch can.
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I’ve got the clutch off, now working on the alternator. Trying to get that rotor bolt off.
(https://i.ibb.co/h8vtD20/68-BD326-E-15-ED-485-B-8196-A8877026-CACC.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h8vtD20)
I tried the technique of screwing in two bolts on the clutch side and jamming the rotation with a wrench. but was afraid to put a lot of oomf into it.
(https://i.ibb.co/fnZ8MfS/18043164-69-D6-4-CDA-B370-B313-F3444273.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fnZ8MfS)
Wouldn’t break loose. Do I need to give it more oomf?
Please don’t tell me it needs more oomf. It’s emotionally taxing.
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Took all the timing gears off my T3 (108 ft/lb) with an air wrench (rattle gun) without locking any part of the drive.
Of course I had to lock the crank to torque the nuts back to 108 ft/lbs at reassembly.
Bender recommended a prybar through the hole where the starter motor fits. I wedged a parallel bar between the ring gear and the housing in such a way that efficiently distributed the forces.
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Con rods appear to be replaceable:
V7 III:
(https://i.ibb.co/ypzytVT/CC451-ACF-4797-4-AE4-A7-C8-BAE9-DC15151-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ypzytVT)
I was planning to measure both mine and those from the donor engine, hoping at least two if not all still measure within spec
this photo seems weird to my eyes, Is that two con rods or one singe "v" shaped con rod ?
I don't like the fact that there are no conn rod bearings listed, however as these are non split rods, a new set can easily be produced at your local machine shop.. so no worries....
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this photo seems weird to my eyes, Is that two con rods or one singe "v" shaped con rod ?
I don't like the fact that there are no conn rod bearings listed, however as these are non split rods, a new set can easily be produced at your local machine shop.. so no worries....
Looks like, but not sure. That’s the V7 III. Mine’s a V7 II, which does have replaceable con-rods.
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I don’t know who Mike is, but I like his method for jamming the crankshaft rotation. I considered throwing the clutch and flywheel on to make a better rotational jamming scenario than without them attached, but in this video you’ll see that he uses a rod through the small end of the con-rod that seats against a block of wood resting on the head:
https://youtu.be/9gvGtpn-GYM (https://youtu.be/9gvGtpn-GYM)
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That'll git 'er done real fine.
(As long as the engine is in that stage of disassembly.)
(https://i.ibb.co/S646tX9/20220930-100529.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S646tX9)
Like my V11 at the moment.
20% different compression port to starboard.
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Got the bolt off using the ‘rod-through-the-small-end’ technique. It needed a little coaxing with a hammer on the axle wrench.
(https://i.ibb.co/m8gCMHy/8-FD87-F07-F16-E-48-C4-B3-A4-3799264-AFD61.jpg) (https://ibb.co/m8gCMHy)
The rotor came off fairly easily with the rotor puller tool. Surprisingly easily, actually. I put the spacer in, screwed the puller over the external threads, and the rotor popped off without having to use the inner screw. Isn’t it supposed to be tough to pull them? Or is the point of the puller and screw to ensure that the crankshaft doesn’t get nicked?
Once the rotor was off, I inspected things and found a few places of wear. 2 radial abrasions above and below the shaft, and one drilled between the two shafts. Not sure how they got worn though. Any ideas? Intentionally made?
(https://i.ibb.co/8c64NWH/1-EB336-B1-91-EF-4-CC5-9-BEA-119-F29-ED8666.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8c64NWH)
And from the other side:
(https://i.ibb.co/g4kXkVw/4-C675-F4-B-2523-49-DC-840-E-6-ABEF5-A0-B814.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g4kXkVw)
Addendum: Looking at other V7 crankcases on eBay, they all seem to have the hole (oil vapor breather perhaps?) and wear marks around the shaft. Guess they’re from the factory and inconsequential.
————————————————-
Like my V11 at the moment.
20% different compression port to starboard.
That sounds like a fun fall/winter project. Hope the Ural is good to go for cold weather riding.
-
Fun fall/winter project? Heck I'm figuring 8 hours more labor after the parts arrive and the heads are back from the shop.
But the '77 and the Ural are both up and running. It's my policy to have at least two of the three in service at all times. Life without motorcycles is hard. :grin:
-
Got the left side cylinder and piston off tonight, and through the magic of television, you can see and hear for yourself. Here’s hoping it’s just the big end bearing, but I guess I’ll find out soon enough…
https://youtu.be/SaPIyQ5BUxY (https://youtu.be/SaPIyQ5BUxY)
-
Got the left side cylinder and piston off tonight, and through the magic of television, you can see and hear for yourself. Here’s hoping it’s just the big end bearing, but I guess I’ll find out soon enough…
https://youtu.be/SaPIyQ5BUxY (https://youtu.be/SaPIyQ5BUxY)
The crank journal will be damaged as well.
-
Man, that's too bad.
Looks like you're in the market for big end bearings, and probably
a crank regrind. (If you're super, super lucky and have been living
a good, clean, life, maybe just a crank polish, but I'd bet heavily on
a regrind.) Let's fervently hope you don't need a new crank. That's
a lot of play in that starboard side big end.
Hats off to you for diving right in - I hope you get it buttoned back
up before the snow flies.
-Stretch
-
Looks like you're in the market for big end bearings, and probably
a crank regrind. (If you're super, super lucky and have been living
a good, clean, life, maybe just a crank polish, but I'd bet heavily on
a regrind.) Let's fervently hope you don't need a new crank. That's
a lot of play in that starboard side big end.
All new big end bearings, thrust washers, and main bearings were ordered a couple weeks ago. Hopefully on a ship soon crossing the Atlantic!
Not sure that working on the crankshaft is doable— the service manual states:
CAUTION
THE CRANKSHAFT IS NITRIDED AND CANNOT BE GROUND; IF WORN, TAPERED OR DEEPLY SCORED, THE CRANKSHAFT MUST BE REPLACED.
I’m assuming I should take the manual at its word? Fortunately I have 2 other used crankshafts waiting in line to potentially be sub’ed in if needed (provided they’re cleared to go themselves.
Hats off to you for diving right in - I hope you get it buttoned back
up before the snow flies.
Thanks, Stretch. I’m staying positive on this… so long as the crank bearings arrive by mid-November as promised and at least one crank is in good order.
Of course, I’m not too egotistical to recognize that ignorance is bliss.
-
Not sure that working on the crankshaft is doable— the service manual states:
CAUTION
THE CRANKSHAFT IS NITRIDED AND CANNOT BE GROUND; IF WORN, TAPERED OR DEEPLY SCORED, THE CRANKSHAFT MUST BE REPLACED.
Hummm.... I have no idea what the cost of a crank is, but I do know that there are people that do Nitride work, If you replacement cranks don't measure up to spec, I personally, would not hesitate to re-grind and re-treat, if the dollsrs make sense.
-
I don't think there is undersize bearings available for small blocks, crank would have to be welded up, machined back to spec & re-nitrated.
-
So, I think guzzisteve has the correct explanation concerning grinding nitrided cranks. :bow:
It can be done. Grind of the bad stuff and existing nitriding, weld, grind back, nitride, and finish grind to stock size.
Replace rod bearings with the stock size and you're good to go. Cost?
$500-$1,000 depending?
Not cheap, and you're on a budget. One of those used cranks should get ya goin' if the stock one is shot, eh?
(All of this is just discussion for fun, yes? Not telling ya what to do..... :grin:)
This link explains things pretty well, I think.
https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/the-crankshaft-co-s-take-on-nitride-treated-cranks.309281/ (https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/the-crankshaft-co-s-take-on-nitride-treated-cranks.309281/)
-Stretch
-
Got the crankcase split apart and disassembled the con rods. Drum roll…
(https://i.ibb.co/4JZVNbj/45072186-4-EDF-4-ADE-AB9-C-CAE800-C82-C4-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4JZVNbj) (https://i.ibb.co/1rvNVzN/BD7-E93-DB-7-BCE-4-B59-9503-9-FD75518-EB84.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1rvNVzN) (https://i.ibb.co/P58PMTq/DDF25-F54-B3-EE-48-E1-AC6-D-85-F4270-A8-C13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P58PMTq) (https://i.ibb.co/cyQQvFG/169-A68-CB-76-DD-4-C1-D-B646-954352-F05817.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cyQQvFG) (https://i.ibb.co/J2dKL3X/56-A8-E531-BB50-41-B7-9566-59-D6450-AE632.jpg) (https://ibb.co/J2dKL3X) (https://i.ibb.co/KWxphgQ/840292-D8-5-A8-A-4196-98-CF-B364-FE441592.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KWxphgQ) (https://i.ibb.co/Zd9fYCr/552-B28-B2-7150-4-D19-A2-D1-E3-E6-A592762-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Zd9fYCr) (https://i.ibb.co/Rp1rn9C/21465-E54-C2-B2-470-C-B727-DDEC939-E5030.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Rp1rn9C) (https://i.ibb.co/BBKdgHM/7-FC47821-4352-40-FA-9-CFE-57-D0-BB7-C50-E5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BBKdgHM) (https://i.ibb.co/K2PjqKB/59-B278-BD-1-ACC-4451-95-B7-0-E40-C0-F7-D74-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K2PjqKB) (https://i.ibb.co/F84T0tG/473-D2273-CDCE-4292-B858-0438-E46-D05-C6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F84T0tG) (https://i.ibb.co/F6v9PVz/8-E409-E9-C-FE8-B-4-B5-F-9-A3-E-9-EBAFA697059.jpg) (https://ibb.co/F6v9PVz) (https://i.ibb.co/HtL6JcW/E5-DD9-E8-B-FA26-493-F-9-B93-AA795-CAD4285.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HtL6JcW) (https://i.ibb.co/pb0LQfW/56-D342-E9-B79-A-416-F-BE7-F-2-EBC1-D006153.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pb0LQfW) (https://i.ibb.co/1GdrRTC/6-E46001-F-7-AD5-447-F-BA06-036299-CC68-CE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1GdrRTC)
As a reminder, the damaged con rod is the right side, and has scored that side of the crank journal enough that it feels somewhat like an emory board.
I think the wear on the left conrod may be OK/normal, but I will probably stick with using one of the other pairs that I have together.
-
Guess "they" figure the timing gear would last as long as the crankshaft. I'm used to seeing that sprocket as a removable part.
....nevermind. Timing sprocket did last as long as the crankshaft!
-
Curious— is this abnormal wear from the thrust washer pressing back on the rear of the lower crankcase?
(https://i.ibb.co/hX71B3N/7369-AA25-9704-4570-8-B7-D-0-E20-D456-D7-FB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hX71B3N)
-
Isn't the thrust washer keyed so it can't rotate against the crankcase?
-
Isn't the thrust washer keyed so it can't rotate against the crankcase?
Thanks for knocking sense back into me. I need that often!
I looked at a couple used crankshafts from previous years, and they all have this area milled / cut down
-
I assume they face the case so it's somewhat perpendicular to the crank axis.
Only time there's a real thrust load on the crankshaft is when you disengage the clutch.
-
I don't think there is undersize bearings available for small blocks, crank would have to be welded up, machined back to spec & re-nitrated.
You are absolutely on the money...no oversize's available for the smallblock.I'm pretty certain that there must be somewhere some that are adaptable but never found them .Possibly for Fiat's.
-
OW OW :sad: :sad:OW!!!
That RH big end and the crank journal are TOAST!!!
I'm guessing that you'll be replacing things there......
-Stretch
-
Just tore apart the cheap, used motor I bought that had previously suffered the infamous V7 II crank issue. I was impressed by the cleanliness of the pistons and valves, and kinda embarrassed by the carbon buildup on mine (although mine had 30,000 more miles more).
…Anyway…
Before tearing the case apart, I checked the endplay. Video link here (heh heh):
https://youtube.com/shorts/u6Tcj5rz1Ik?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/u6Tcj5rz1Ik?feature=share)
Ahem. Again…Anyway….
Popped the halves apart, and this is what I see:
(https://i.ibb.co/S71KN38/857-C5-E1-A-8451-4-F71-BFC4-CE0697-D3-BE65.jpg) (https://ibb.co/S71KN38) (https://i.ibb.co/47DfVJt/D3-E2-C5-CF-3-D35-47-D1-B1-C9-E903-BE46-F270.jpg) (https://ibb.co/47DfVJt) (https://i.ibb.co/mtDWXMm/4-CBA8474-27-A5-40-FC-BF32-33-CB23-CD31-CD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mtDWXMm) (https://i.ibb.co/v3ZbtVh/26-E6-EBE6-7545-409-A-B26-F-2-D6-DE1-A1-B4-BE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v3ZbtVh) (https://i.ibb.co/dpGVS9P/9-B5-C9-A53-70-CA-4-F47-825-F-A78-C0-C8-C7-FA5.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dpGVS9P) (https://i.ibb.co/qMSKwxb/0-D87-D2-E1-8-FA2-4-EAF-8-D54-710-B9-D2928-C3.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qMSKwxb) (https://i.ibb.co/0QmtWtZ/1940027-F-5228-43-B9-82-FC-500-A83-F01496.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0QmtWtZ) (https://i.ibb.co/yhhp7k9/E83548-A7-C34-F-4462-AD4-A-F090-B8-BE2-D47.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yhhp7k9)
Crankshaft is in good condition. Case is pretty clean of debris. Con rods feel good radially.
But you might ask yourself Dirk, what about the other thrust bearing?
Funny, because I’d also like to know about that other thrust bearing.
Not. Present.
Just one bearing, sandwiched between the seal and crankcase. No thrust bearing on the inside of the wall, and there is indeed supposed to be another thrust washer on the inside. That would explain the amount of endplay that I noted before pulling the halves apart, and maybe that’s why others in that bothersome batch failed, too?
But back to me: I have a question: The seal and surrounding metal around it got eaten up, as well as the area up by the cam, as shown in the following pics.
Does that mean this engine case is no bueno to use? Or are those war wounds inconsequential?
(https://i.ibb.co/5cVhQgB/10230-F50-F0-D0-4341-A853-FB68-B4903-AB9.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5cVhQgB)
(https://i.ibb.co/1nT6fvY/2-A8-FBEFE-3-B5-E-4513-A2-A8-377311-C558-CF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1nT6fvY)
-
The engine you pulled apart. The outer thrust bearing looks like the wafer thin one in the engine that I posted the pics of. But the inner thrust was in the pan all wadded up.
I have not seen a new crank to know exactly what to look for. On the clutch side of the crank. The face that rides up against the outer thrust has a lip on it. It is not flat from the bearing surface to the edge of the flange. Should it be flat or have that lip????
If the cam end cover is not leaking,you should be OK?????
Tom
-
Just tore apart the cheap, used motor I bought that had previously suffered the infamous V7 II crank issue.
<snip>
Crankshaft is in good condition. Case is pretty clean of debris. Con rods feel good radially.
But you might ask yourself Dirk, what about the other thrust bearing?
Funny, because I’d also like to know about that other thrust bearing.
Not. Present.
Just one bearing, sandwiched between the seal and crankcase. No thrust bearing on the inside of the wall, and there is indeed supposed to be another thrust washer on the inside. That would explain the amount of endplay that I noted before pulling the halves apart, and maybe that’s why others in that bothersome batch failed, too?
But back to me: I have a question: The seal and surrounding metal around it got eaten up, as well as the area up by the cam, as shown in the following pics.
Does that mean this engine case is no bueno to use? Or are those war wounds inconsequential?
Is this the motor from Hamlin?
Dude, I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I have no reason not to believe him on the WHY this happens. The crankshaft is NO GOOD because it's undersize. It was MADE too small, which allowed enough movement for the thrust bearings to come out of place (maybe one at a time), and get ground down by the crank.
This is why the one is worn and the other is possibly waded up in the pan (Tom I don't see what you're seeing but it's early and I'm bleary eyed and probably not looking in the right place). But THAT is probably why some people are claiming a thrust washer was "left out". NO, no-one at the factory was actually stupid enough to FORGET a thrust washer. They placed them there with a crank that was mm out of spec on end length/throw width or the like. It was just enough to eventually, under the load from the clutch, allow that bearing to move, block an oil passage and/or make forced contact with the crank and chugga chugga chugga.
I can't say if the crankcase is ok without seeing if anything is worn/damaged, but I trust Hamlin enough to say the crank is NOT good.
-
The cases need checking also. Years ago a friend's v 50 which works exactly like this had a similar problem with the thrust bearings and it was got around by skillfully machining the crank and cases ,then making oversized thrust bearings.
-
Is this the motor from Hamlin?
Yes it is.
Dude, I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record, but I have no reason not to believe him on the WHY this happens. The crankshaft is NO GOOD because it's undersize. It was MADE too small, which allowed enough movement for the thrust bearings to come out of place (maybe one at a time), and get ground down by the crank.
Very well may be right, but I never got a definite answer from Jim on the why. “Undersize crank, I think”
Maybe the bearing fell out while I was taking it all apart, but I’ve yet to find it. I’ll clean everything up tonight and do a good search.
It’s not in the sump, and I never heard anything clanging around inside when I was flipping it constantly during tear down.
Or perhaps it was found in the sump and removed prior to my purchase?
(Tom I don't see what you're seeing but it's early and I'm bleary eyed and probably not looking in the right place).
He was referring to the engine that he worked on, not mine.
They placed them there with a crank that was mm out of spec on end length/throw width or the like. It was just enough to eventually, under the load from the clutch, allow that bearing to move, block an oil passage and/or make forced contact with the crank and chugga chugga chugga.
I suppose there’s no easy way to measure the length of a crank down precisely?
I can't say if the crankcase is ok without seeing if anything is worn/damaged,…
I don’t feel any scoring, but I can begin measuring diameters, etc., with the measuring tools that I got for just the occasion.I have not seen a new crank to know exactly what to look for. On the clutch side of the crank. The face that rides up against the outer thrust has a lip on it. It is not flat from the bearing surface to the edge of the flange. Should it be flat or have that lip????
I’ll take a look after work. I have my original crankcase and shaft here as well, and I want to compare the two anyway.
The cases need checking also. Years ago a friend's v 50 which works exactly like this had a similar problem with the thrust bearings and it was got around by skillfully machining the crank and cases ,then making oversized thrust bearings.
…Oh boy.
-
I suppose there’s no easy way to measure the length of a crank down precisely?
I don’t feel any scoring, but I can begin measuring diameters, etc., with the measuring tools that I got for just the occasion.
I’ll take a look after work. I have my original crankcase here as well, and I want to compare the two anyway.
…Oh boy.
Well, the good thing is that you have two cranks to compare now right?
Assuming there's no scoring or wear, perhaps measure the width of the crank at the thrust surfaces (between the surfaces that contact the thrust bearings) using a sliding caliper or the like? See how they compare. If the one from Hamlin's motor is smaller you may have your answer.
-
I would just make a thrust washer out of phosphor bronze, so you can set the clearances as needed.
easy for me , but you need access to a lathe
i would not hesitate to reuse the cases.
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I would just make a thrust washer out of phosphor bronze, so you can set the clearances as needed.
easy for me , but you need access to a lathe
i would not hesitate to reuse the cases.
So even IF the crank is undersize, you could in theory make the crank fit the block with different size thrust washers.
Makes sense.
-
Of course kev.I've no idea how the V50 fix lasted but it's certainly worth a go.
The other issue is that with the small bloc cranks there are no oversize main or big end bearings available and I have never found anything that could be modified...there must be something out there that would work though.
-
Kev,
In the first pic I posted you will see the main bearing area with the worn thrust washer laying across it. If you look to the right you will see a folded over bit of metal sitting on the block sealing lip. That's the mangled one that was fitted to the inside of the block. Oddly enough, it appeared to be the correct thickness. Just the outer was worn away.
I still think that maybe the thrust bearings were made with defective material. The clutch side one I believe is worn from working the clutch AND/OR a clutch adjusted too tight.
When you work the clutch, it pushes the crank forward putting pressure on the outer thrust washer. Once the outer wore enough, then the inner fell out.
JMHO
Tom
-
Defective material for the thrust washers is a possibility.Another is extra wear by holding the clutch in at lights or insufficient lubrication.The latter was what juiced my friends one's.
-
Kev,
In the first pic I posted you will see the main bearing area with the worn thrust washer laying across it. If you look to the right you will see a folded over bit of metal sitting on the block sealing lip. That's the mangled one that was fitted to the inside of the block. Oddly enough, it appeared to be the correct thickness. Just the outer was worn away.
:thumb:
Copy that, I misunderstood and thought you were commenting on Dirk's pics.... but I'm easily confused. :boozing:
-
Another photo dump. This time I have the crankcase halves side-by-side for comparison. Turns out my crankcase halves have different part numbers to them, and you can see in the casting texture and a couple minor features that there are indeed differences.
Curious about the area near the rear main bearings that look like unopened oil passages.
You can see that the Hamlin engine case is certainly nicked and worn at the thrust locations. Hmm. Might have to go with my crankcase after all??
(https://i.ibb.co/gj0Q0pG/0817-F5-FF-995-F-4-F07-8421-2-E70100-A8230.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gj0Q0pG) (https://i.ibb.co/sPp97k1/14-CE89-AE-D311-46-A6-A0-A2-6-E7-B942-E1-BC6.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sPp97k1) (https://i.ibb.co/bBmNq5v/A256-F0-C1-58-B2-47-AB-B0-A0-B69-FD32-E4684.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bBmNq5v)
(https://i.ibb.co/DC9cZQP/97111-A3-B-BEFC-45-E2-93-C6-7-F5-BA867-BF45.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DC9cZQP) (https://i.ibb.co/JBQjGfG/609-CF2-EE-77-AF-4-F5-C-B818-AFF027648580.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JBQjGfG)
(https://i.ibb.co/tCLGSwv/6-F62-F058-72-B1-40-F2-BC2-D-A3-C2582-DD862.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tCLGSwv) (https://i.ibb.co/5kyD1sw/D2944-D2-E-8027-4-EC6-9356-44490-C50523-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5kyD1sw)
(https://i.ibb.co/XtZMhTr/D6-E94755-90-BE-4224-9961-E8-ECEFA6-D084.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XtZMhTr) (https://i.ibb.co/xSz748W/7-FC09576-17-D5-451-B-B999-EC5-CEC3-CEF87.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xSz748W)
(https://i.ibb.co/pvWXHKz/39-C946-F5-0-FCF-4135-BEF2-461-BE89626-CA.jpg) (https://ibb.co/pvWXHKz) (https://i.ibb.co/LhxcTq2/E49-E3-F31-0-AE2-4921-9-C75-EEBF2732236-A.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LhxcTq2)
(https://i.ibb.co/k0n6G4S/1-C2-B7259-5856-4-C4-E-8-AF2-912427-BF2-CF8.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k0n6G4S) (https://i.ibb.co/G3qKm4g/0-A3-BB0-D0-35-D4-4237-955-B-740-E3-B4-ABAEE.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G3qKm4g)
(https://i.ibb.co/sv5nmbd/6244-A1-A3-8-BD2-4294-A704-22-AABCE61-D88.jpg) (https://ibb.co/sv5nmbd) (https://i.ibb.co/wyK95CT/EB2388-F9-7-C7-A-4-C7-A-9132-1-E5-CD777-AF55.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wyK95CT)
(https://i.ibb.co/Gf62XHc/84816-AB8-E0-F7-467-B-BF80-B0-E85-AD899-A4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gf62XHc) (https://i.ibb.co/2qqCZjf/C0991095-F830-4-A32-96-FD-3-C0-FE970-F32-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2qqCZjf)
(https://i.ibb.co/hDHNyBC/FDDD3661-24-C2-4247-BFAA-9-EA4-E52-E3-F54.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hDHNyBC) (https://i.ibb.co/g7V0QLL/75-F56099-5560-4-EDD-BD0-A-E1425-F7-E1317.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7V0QLL)
(https://i.ibb.co/kQwNMyZ/9-E4-D522-A-2-C2-A-4-BD7-8167-A30606-B7-CF64.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kQwNMyZ)(https://i.ibb.co/RHwTFQP/5-ACACC4-F-0497-485-C-9-B45-831-A3-C044569.jpg) (https://ibb.co/RHwTFQP)
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I might have the problem zero’ed in with regards to why the bad batch of V7 II motors failed. I could be wrong, and maybe it’s just on this one I received. I mean, there’s reason I didn’t go on to detective school, and I did occasionally call my hand too early playing Clue and Guess Who.
I did measurements of all 3 cranks that I have in possession—mine, the Bad Batch crank, and this one I purchased off eBay with “20-30,000 miles” (which happens to be made differently from mine and Hamlin’s. Hmm).
No journal diameters. Solely focused on longitudinal lengths.
The pics included have the measurements written on them. I used 2 calipers that measured to 0.0001. Measured a couple times each, Used the average as base number:
(https://i.ibb.co/G959gQD/9-A6772-D4-635-F-49-F8-A378-E520-EFD033-CD.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G959gQD)
(https://i.ibb.co/ysP51Cd/9655-E9-F8-EF83-4028-AD53-79-D2585-AFD65.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ysP51Cd)
(https://i.ibb.co/bXBcxnD/A41358-B0-1-CAF-4-F61-B2-F2-C5-AE2-C8-A7-BF2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bXBcxnD)
I noticed on the Hamlin crankshaft (Bad Batch motor), that there’s a step on the main journal that’s not present on the other 2. This step occurs precisely where the other two flywheel flanges begin. Also notice that the flywheel flange on the Bad Batch crank is skinnier than the one on mine:
(https://i.ibb.co/svm563C/8-E79-F01-F-A9-FA-4471-99-A7-C03-BA35-DAF2-D.jpg) (https://ibb.co/svm563C)
(https://i.ibb.co/Vm0tsng/5-FD2-D60-F-D9-EF-4-FDC-A9-A5-59-DFC217-DF5-E.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Vm0tsng)
(https://i.ibb.co/2qB0Yvj/3-EC5-C743-E944-4-F9-C-85-BB-9-DA5850-C605-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/2qB0Yvj)
(https://i.ibb.co/W24NF06/8747-D8-E8-934-B-4216-9-E5-A-32-E039041-AB2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/W24NF06)
I don’t see how the flywheel flange can wear. It’s hardened, and presses against the thrust washers. Maybe the hardening step didn’t get that area? But still, that flange is only seating against the softer thrust bearing. Looks to me like the lathe hit the precise mark at the flange, then jumped up and continued machining for a few more mm.
The end play is measured by checking the gap between thrust washer and crankshaft. Should be 0.05mm-0.233mm.
The thrust washers from my engine are still within thickness tolerance, so I included them onto the Bad Batch crankcase and crankshaft. The gap measured at over 0.5mm. Too much.
I then threw the Bad Batch crank and my thrust washers into my engine case, and the gap… is still 0.5mm+. Too much.
Finally, I tried both my and the eBay crankshaft in my engine case with the thrust washers—both gaps are within spec.
The skinnier flywheel flange adds extra space to the main journal and allows for the extra throw.. At least in my instance.
——————————
So my crankshaft is toast.
The Bad Batch crankshaft is no good.
Hopefully the remaining tolerances work out on the eBay shaft, and I can use that.
I’m also going to stick with my crankcase, as the Bad Batch case has uneven wear, especially at the inside thrust bearing seat area. This means I’ll need to flush my case up real good.
I’m wondering—if I want to strip the paint off my cases, should I do it now before flushing them, or wait until I have it all back together?
From the Bad Batch motor, I can still use the top end, and will also transfer the stator and rotor over to mine (I returned the one I bought new).
P.S.—And gosh-dang, why is that eBay crank a different hue and texture from the other two??[/i]
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best to strip the cases when they are empty. Aqua bead blasting after paint stripper would probably be the best way.
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You just posted the pics I was going to ask if you could do.
On the bad crank. Do your good thrust washers line up with the step? I'm thinking they do.
It would appear that the correct cranks are flat with no step. As you mentioned, is the step there from machining or wear? That is the good question.
I still find it odd that the bad cranks also ate up the outer throw out bearing, but the good flat cranks appear to not have done this. As mentioned. maybe a lubrication issue?
If it was a machining issue, there would be oil there, but probably not under pressure. So maybe when the clutch lever is pulled and the crank moves forward, the gap between the inner thrust and crank is now bigger allowing the oil to flow out toward the engine side leaving the clutch side essentially dry???
Wish I could go back in time and see the shelf of cranks and have a look at them to see if they have the step. And if so, all or how many.
Thanks for the good work,
Tom
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As we spoke earlier, sure sounds like Hamlin's theory was correct, the bad batch have a crankshaft machining problem that allow too much play and eventually the thrust washers come out of position and/or are eaten away.
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As we spoke earlier, sure sounds like Hamlin's theory was correct, the bad batch have a crankshaft machining problem that allow too much play and eventually the thrust washers come out of position and/or are eaten away.
Oh sure. I might even hop onto that other forum and share my findings on the engine thread. I know one or two members snapped back with some ‘how dare you suggest the crankshaft” comments.
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And we have a complete engine again:
(https://i.ibb.co/FzX9tLg/2-E7-D0-A6-E-849-B-4-F37-AF97-4-C480-FB1876-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FzX9tLg)
(https://i.ibb.co/59y75dZ/898393-B2-07-F2-4-AA9-9-C79-2-F4088-FC3103.jpg) (https://ibb.co/59y75dZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/wgj7j9b/EB75-C6-FB-AF4-E-434-D-B90-F-C103-B8-D91697.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wgj7j9b)
(https://i.ibb.co/yfGJyK5/8-E5-DBCB6-0-A5-E-4-E33-A03-C-8-EB14256-D95-C.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yfGJyK5)
Fingers crossed that I didn’t stink it up. Next up—add on the bell housing, gearbox, and we’LL be ready to begin installing it back onto the bike. Fingers crossed for a Christmas miracle.
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Good on you!
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:thumb: :thumb:
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Good on you! (http://Good on you!)
This! :bow: :thumb: :afro: :grin:
-Stretch
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Holding my breath---- you got this! :thumb:
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:bow:
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Good on you, and Kudos for taking this on. We are waiting to see how it runs, and are waiting to see what you will break next :cool: :evil: :grin: Seriously though, very impressed.
It's obvious that this crank issue is a V7ii issue. I'm wondering if the failures are specific to sub models? I wonder if there is or we could have a poll to identify which models have had the failure? I'm tracking 4 V7ii sub models
Stone
Special
Racer
Stornello
I think that is it, and from my vantage point have seen Stones as the majority, and I haven't seen a Racer or Stornello, but I wonder if it would help to narrow down potential victims?
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Engine back in the bike:
(https://i.ibb.co/tMsdk0s/8-D699145-D736-4-C7-C-887-F-D21-BFF5511-D0.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tMsdk0s)
…finished connecting all the bits and bobs yesterday:
(https://i.ibb.co/s1rhr4n/78-EF2784-3089-40-C6-931-E-E29-C40264314.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s1rhr4n)
(https://i.ibb.co/yN7hQGp/3604-E186-B06-F-4-A21-84-B7-C76-E2-A1-F5-DB4.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yN7hQGp)
…and started it up today.
Noticed my throttle and idle were erratic for a while—was it because I removed the evap canister? Is my timing off? Do I have a leak?—until I realized air was puffing out the side on the right cylinder. Fearing a blown head gasket, I stuck my hand down and felt the air coming out from the intake manifold. Thought maybe I didn’t have it screwed into the head tight enough, but then I saw it was coming out of the screw hole that the injector cover attaches to. Once I plugged it, she started singing sweet, sweet music.
After getting the engine up to temp, I dropped the oil and it came out like this:
(https://i.ibb.co/TqVWwyy/592367-D5-CC58-4-D2-E-B4-A8-EB26-D084170-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TqVWwyy)
I’m assuming this is just what break-in oil looks like? Didn’t see any metal debris—OK, I did actually see a minor amount on the rear drain bolt, but I think it was there from previous. Kinda hard to get ALL metal off those magnets.
Anyway, tomorrow I’ll take it for a 20 minute drive, drop the oil again, replace with the normal synthetic stuff, and to most people’s chagrin, hook the sidecar up immediately. Not out of the woods yet, fingers crossed!
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:thumb: :thumb:
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That pic looks like it belongs in a Starbucks ad.
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Engine back in the bike and running with no funny noises?!
That's GREAT! :thumb: :bow: :grin: :cool:
My winter project(s) are not progressing as quickly, alas.......
-Stretch
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Man that’s great. Congratulations and well done. Been following this with some interest
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Impressive work! Thanks for taking the time to document/share this with us! :thumb:
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Can't quite figure why air would be puffing OUT of the intake manifold?
That should be negative pressure.
I'm assuming you got the valve timing and clearances at factory specs?
Glad to hear it's running properly. Enjoy. Around here, at least, they've canceled winter. It's hit 50 every day for the last few and there is no snow, ice or salt anywhere. Been riding pretty much every day.
Enjoy the ride. Don't lug the engine with the chair.
Good work. It's fun coming off the back side of these adventures with more knowledge about your machine.
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Let’s go ahead and do one final report and I’ll call this thread done…hopefully.
Took the bike out for a 10 mile ride, varying throttle and RPMs. No hard loads or lugging, no high screaming RPMs or complete WOT, but about 80% and 6k RPM a couple times.
I dropped the oil, and gazed through it, spying a little debris here and there, all tiny. However, expecting mostly silver, I did see some copper. I assume this is the thrust washer material. How big of a deal is that? Again, no sizable flakes, just small grains, and not a lot.
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Let’s go ahead and do one final report and I’ll call this thread done…hopefully.
Took the bike out for a 10 mile ride, varying throttle and RPMs. No hard loads or lugging, no high screaming RPMs or complete WOT, but about 80% and 6k RPM a couple times.
I dropped the oil, and gazed through it, spying a little debris here and there, all Tony. However, expecting mostly silver, I did see some copper. I assume this is the thrust washer material. How big of a deal is that? Again, no sizable flakes, just small grains, and not a lot.
I wouldn’t worry unless there’s part numbers on the bits. Keep a eye on it though, if there is something amiss, go back in and fix it. Watch for fore and aft flywheel movement increasing. If you see that you’ll want to look at it. Up to about a millimeter max is ok in my experience. Pull the clutch lever as you visually watch either the flywheel or the alternator. Push or pry it aft.
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Glad to hear about forward progress, Dirk. Very cool.