Author Topic: Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block  (Read 7959 times)

Offline 80CX100

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Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« on: May 23, 2015, 12:34:57 PM »
I've gradually sorted through the electrical issues on my '80 CX100, and am finally at the stage of doing a final tune/set up,,, this engine has the dual point system.

When I try to set the static timing, I am unable to retard the left cylinder far enough. I really like the idea of the reliability of points and keeping the original stock Marelli points(which didn't look bad (24K miles), but thinking it was a possible "wear issue", I threw in a new set of "Chinese" replacement points I had on hand,,It didn't help,,.

I was up all night trying various solutions,,, I've read through the many posts describing Greg Bender's "point's plate modifications"(filing the left point plate mounting holes,,,done) and also the many posts describing "cheating the gap",,,done,,, all to no avail.

I've gone as far as,,, filing all mounting holes and obstructions in the left point mounting plate&base plate, as far as possible,,, cheating the gap as much as .02 point gap for the right cylinder and .012 point gap for left,,, turning the distributer all the way clockwise, retarding the right cylinder points opening as much as 5 flywheel teeth after the static timing line,,,, but after all that my left cylinder points still are still about 12-13 flywheel teeth too advanced,,,wtf!.

I think it's at this point that Dave Richardson in Guzziology recommends being a good time to install the Dyna 111 electronic ignition,,,but I am very reluctant to go down this road,,, I've read most of the good/bad pros/cons posts concerning points vs Dyna,,, speaking from personal experience,,, the only time in my life that a bike went completely dead and I was unable to fix it and get it going,, was when the CDI black box on my old '72 H2 Kawi triple died, so I am a little leary of magical black boxes, although I'm sure they've improved over 40 yrs.

Is there something that I'm overlooking(screwed up?) with my points installation/modifications? I would really like to stay with the reliable dual point system,,, but if I can't get it set up properly and have to make the transition to an electronic ignition,, what is the best/most reliable system out there?

In 2015 terms,, have the Dyna issues from the past been sorted?

I've read up on the C5 Ignitions, (comes with it's own coils),,, but included in my work on the bike,,, I worked very hard to fit in a pair of Bosch Blue coils under the tank,, so I'm hoping that if I'm reluctantly forced to go down the electronic igniton road,,,that whatever ignition system I go with,, will be compatible with those coils.

Any and all suggestions and comments are appreciated.

tks in advance
Kelly
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 10:46:19 PM by 80CX100 »
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Offline rodekyll

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Within reason you can change the points gaps to make the angle.  Point gap is not as critical on a guzzi as a chevvy.

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Yup, just juggle the gap/dwell. Time it right, make sure it doesn't break down at higher rpm and then just re-adjust by re-gapping in future. Make sure the points heels are lubricated.

Pete

Offline 80CX100

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Yup, just juggle the gap/dwell. Time it right, make sure it doesn't break down at higher rpm and then just re-adjust by re-gapping in future. Make sure the points heels are lubricated.

Pete

Pete,    I appreciate your advice,,, the point cam appears good(was lubed well),,, I've read the recommendation, of juggling the point gap to .018 for the right side and .013 for the left,, I've gone past that to .02 right/.012 left,,, if I go much more than that,,, it appears to me that the right points would never make contact(dwell), and the left wouldn't open far enough(possibility of arcing?),,, it just seems to me that,,, I'm not even close,,, I've got almost a 20 tooth difference on the flywheel to make up,,,,

How would I determine if the point cam was neglected in the past and possibly toast now?

Changing the points was a pita,,, but I'm wondering if the Marelli's might be worth trying again, with the plate mods and gap cheating,,, are the chinese points known to be more problematic?


"Within reason you can change the points gaps to make the angle.  Point gap is not as critical on a guzzi as a chevvy. ,,,Rodekyll"

    Rodekyll, I agree with you, and understand how understressed/overdesigned the dual point system is,,, but see my comments above,,, I haven't been able to make up that much difference, and I still have a long way to go.

Tks Kelly
2008 California Vintage
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2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

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Offline rodekyll

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You've got some other problem then.  Perhaps the wrong points? 

Offline 80CX100

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You've got some other problem then.  Perhaps the wrong points? 

They should be good, from Harpers,,, seemed to look and fit the same,,, very obviously, inferior quality to the stock ones.


 "The heel on Chinese made points is often too tall , could be causing an issue"  Dusty

Appreciate the input,,, I'll clean up the old ones and throw them back in,,, and see if that makes a difference.

tks very much

Kelly
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline acogoff

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     I believe that The illustrious Mr. Vasco D. did a writeup some time ago about setting the upper set of points to .018 and timing it to the cylinder by swinging the entire dizzy and then setting the lower set to a gap of about .013 to get the other cyl. close and fine adjusting this cyl. by altering this lower point gap slightly. This all sounds in the ballpark from what I have run into.
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Offline mtiberio

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If you adjust the top (left) points to .012, there is something fundamental about this process you do not understand. if you rotate the distributor in  the hopes of affecting the timing of one side and not the other. Ditto. Put down the tools and get help.
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Offline mtiberio

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Did you pull the distributor from the motor? Did you pull the point cam off the distributor during this process? It is possible you are timing to the wrong mark. Go back to first principles, check flywheel marks, etc.
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Offline 80CX100

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If you adjust the top (left) points to .012, there is something fundamental about this process you do not understand. if you rotate the distributor in  the hopes of affecting the timing of one side and not the other. Ditto. Put down the tools and get help.

Actually the top points are for the right cylinder,,, I had gapped them out to .02,, then rotated the distributer to set the timing up to the static line,,, then juggled the gap on the lower set of points(left cylinder down to .012,,, rotated the left point mounting plate clockwise(retarding) as far as it would go,, still too advanced on the left side. After many different goes at this,,, I did put the tools down and came here for help.

I think Dusty may be onto something about the tolerances on the Chinese points possibly affecting it,,, what convinced me to use them in the first place, to replace the original Marelli's was the substantially thicker contacts on the new points,,, I thought it might have been a wear issue at first,,, I didn't realize that there was a known manufacturing issue with the stock left point mounting plate being difficult to retard enough,,, now that I've modified the plate and have a better understanding of juggling the gaps,,, I'll put the stock ones back in and see how they line up.

Tks

Kelly
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline 80CX100

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Did you pull the distributor from the motor? Did you pull the point cam off the distributor during this process? It is possible you are timing to the wrong mark. Go back to first principles, check flywheel marks, etc.

No the distributer wasn't pulled,,, and the cam wasn't messed with,,, I remember that the gap for right cylinder was fine,,, but that the left one was off, and I gapped it to spec .014(it's been so long, I can't remember how far off or in what direction.

I'm hoping that with juggling the gap, and modding the plates that I can get the old points back into spec
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Offline Stevex

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Quote
but after all that my left cylinder points still are still about 12-13 flywheel teeth too advanced,,,wtf!.

Something's very wrong here, 12-13 teeth equates to 40 odd degrees, way out.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 03:25:17 PM by Stevex »

Offline 80CX100

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Something's very wrong here, 12-13 teeth equates to 40 odd degrees, way out.

My thoughts exactly,,, I'm hoping it's due to the generic points,,, I have read that the mounting posts are very flimsy(they are compared to stock) and some can move around,,, and apparently they're known to have tolerance issues,,,

I'll be swapping the old points back in very shortly,, hopefully it solves itself

Tks

Kelly
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline Triple Jim

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My thoughts exactly,,, I'm hoping it's due to the generic  points,,,

I think Stevex is right, there's a bigger problem than slightly out of spec points or tall rubbing blocks.  It sounds like you have a couple things wrong that are adding together, like you're a full turn off with the crankshaft, and you're using the wrong timing marks, so you're one turn minus 3/4 turn off, making it 1/4 turn off, for example.  I have a dual point system in my Mille, and it's easy to use the adjustment of the mounting plate, together with small adjustments of the gaps, to get it where it needs to be, with the point gaps ending up being what the manual says they should be.
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Offline acogoff

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     Make sure you are on the compression stroke(finger in sparkplug hole to feel compression) while coming up to the timing marks and make sure you are turning the crank clockwise as viewed from the front.
'77850t3FB Owned since it was new
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Offline 80CX100

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Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2015, 10:44:09 PM »
I think Stevex is right, there's a bigger problem than slightly out of spec points or tall rubbing blocks.  It sounds like you have a couple things wrong that are adding together, like you're a full turn off with the crankshaft, and you're using the wrong timing marks, so you're one turn minus 3/4 turn off, making it 1/4 turn off, for example.  I have a dual point system in my Mille, and it's easy to use the adjustment of the mounting plate, together with small adjustments of the gaps, to get it where it needs to be, with the point gaps ending up being what the manual says they should be.

Jim, you and Stevex are both absolutely right,,,let me explain  ::)

I threw the old stock Marelli points back in, gapped the right side points a little open .019, spun the distributer so the right side opened right at the static timing line on the flywheel, then I gapped the left points a little tight at .013, retarded the left point mounting plate as much as possible, and turned the flywheel over,,, still way too advanced, left points opened at the TDC marking for the right cylinder, exactly 22 teeth on the flywheel before the left cylinder static timing line on the flywheel.

I knew the point cam couldn't be that bad,,, I hadn't moved it, or the distributer shaft, obviously something was throwing the timing way off, and apparently the full range of adjustment for the right cylinder could compensate,,, but the limited range of motion in the left point mounting plate wasn't sufficient to deal with whatever major issue it was?,,, then it hit me like a ton of bricks.

Last year, before I got sidetracked redoing the electrical system, I had upgraded to a new timing chain adjuster, and replaced the timing chain at the same time. I was very concious of the fact that I didn't want to disturb the sprockets inside the timing chest and screw up their relationship to each other and the timing overall,,, so I left the sprockets in place noting their alignment, and cut the old chain off and put on a new split chain with master links. But I remember very distinctly thinking to myself as I did it,,,being very particular to try to keep the marks on the sprockets aligned,,, but that when threading the new tight rigid chain, in place of the stretched old flexible one,,, I thought to myself,, it would be far too easy to drop or gain a tooth on one of the sprockets with the different fit of the new chain,,, I'm almost positive that's what's happened. :wife:

If my suspicions are correct,,, and if my logic is right,,, then I'm thinking,,,that if I knew the total number of teeth on the flywheel,,, divided by the 22 teeth I'm too advanced,,, that should equal the number of teeth on the crank or cam shaft sprocket, and indicate which one I screwed up on,, am I on the right track?,,, and would I be looking to gain or lose a tooth when I remount the chain to retard back at the flywheel?

Is there a simpler more logical way of determining which one is causing the problem or how to rectify it? and get things realigned?

I'm not looking forward to ripping into the timing chest again,,, but I'd love to have a game plan for when I do,,, and before someone makes a comment about me being in way over my head,,, I'm the first one to admit that I am  :bow,,, but it's a basic reality that I don't have any mechanics anywhere near me,, certainly not for an old Guzzi,,, I'm about as far back in the bush as you can get,, with plans to move back a little closer to the city,, but first I have to get this bike in my kitchen back together and running  :beat_horse. With the help of KiwiRoy, LeRoy and many others,, I've solved a lot of issues and was really close to being up and running, until this last set back,,, and it's a major one,,,aaarrrgghhhh,,lol.

But it's all good, and she still puts a smile on my face when I look at her,, would be nice to go for a ride again soon though :bike

Tks

Kelly
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline Triple Jim

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Re: Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2015, 11:02:05 PM »
If you find a correct TDC, then with the rocker arm cover off, you can see if the two valves are symmetrically overlapping at that point, assuming you are checking when the exhaust valve is closing and the intake is opening.  If symmetrical, then the cam is timed OK.  By symmetrical, I mean the closing exhaust valve is still open about the same amount that the opening intake valve is open, right at TDC.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 11:04:35 PM by Triple Jim »
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Offline 80CX100

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Re: Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2015, 11:10:36 PM »
If you find a correct TDC, then with the rocker arm cover off, you can see if the two valves are symmetrically overlapping at that point, assuming you are checking when the exhaust valve is closing and the intake is opening.  If symmetrical, then the cam is timed OK.  By symmetrical, I mean the closing exhaust valve is still open about the same amount that the opening intake valve is open, right at TDC.

Tks Jim,   I'll take a look at that in the morning

Kelly
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2015, 04:10:09 AM »
20 teeth out ???
Are you sure you aren't on the wrong cam lobe for the first cylinder?

Re valve timing (timing chain) I always look for the valves to be rocking (exhaust closing, inlet opening) with the piston at TDC
One tooth out on chain or cog and the rocking is well off TDC
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Offline Stevex

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Re: Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2015, 07:21:08 AM »
Kelly, I replaced my timing chain and fitted an improved tensioner last year, also using a split link chain and leaving the sprockets in place.
The two top sprockets (cam and crank) need to have the timing marks aligned and it's easy to squeeze the chain over these sprockets. The lower sprocket is the oil pump and you can turn that to your heart's content.
From what I remember I fed it through the lower sprocket by rotating it then fed it over the upper two sprockets, keeping it tight.
Once I joined it with the split link and fitted the tensioner, I then rotated the crank 360 to check that the timing marks on the top two sprockets still lined up.
Take your time and good luck. Let us know if you need any more info.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 07:44:50 AM by Stevex »

Offline rodekyll

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Re: Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2015, 12:10:18 PM »
Jim, you and Stevex are both absolutely right,,,let me explain  ::)

I threw the old stock Marelli points back in, gapped the right side points a little open .019, spun the distributer so the right side opened right at the static timing line on the flywheel, then I gapped the left points a little tight at .013, retarded the left point mounting plate as much as possible, and turned the flywheel over,,, still way too advanced, left points opened at the TDC marking for the right cylinder, exactly 22 teeth on the flywheel before the left cylinder static timing line on the flywheel.

I knew the point cam couldn't be that bad,,, I hadn't moved it, or the distributer shaft, obviously something was throwing the timing way off, and apparently the full range of adjustment for the right cylinder could compensate,,, but the limited range of motion in the left point mounting plate wasn't sufficient to deal with whatever major issue it was?,,, then it hit me like a ton of bricks.

Last year, before I got sidetracked redoing the electrical system, I had upgraded to a new timing chain adjuster, and replaced the timing chain at the same time. I was very concious of the fact that I didn't want to disturb the sprockets inside the timing chest and screw up their relationship to each other and the timing overall,,, so I left the sprockets in place noting their alignment, and cut the old chain off and put on a new split chain with master links. But I remember very distinctly thinking to myself as I did it,,,being very particular to try to keep the marks on the sprockets aligned,,, but that when threading the new tight rigid chain, in place of the stretched old flexible one,,, I thought to myself,, it would be far too easy to drop or gain a tooth on one of the sprockets with the different fit of the new chain,,, I'm almost positive that's what's happened. :wife:

If my suspicions are correct,,, and if my logic is right,,, then I'm thinking,,,that if I knew the total number of teeth on the flywheel,,, divided by the 22 teeth I'm too advanced,,, that should equal the number of teeth on the crank or cam shaft sprocket, and indicate which one I screwed up on,, am I on the right track?,,, and would I be looking to gain or lose a tooth when I remount the chain to retard back at the flywheel?

Is there a simpler more logical way of determining which one is causing the problem or how to rectify it? and get things realigned?

I'm not looking forward to ripping into the timing chest again,,, but I'd love to have a game plan for when I do,,, and before someone makes a comment about me being in way over my head,,, I'm the first one to admit that I am  :bow,,, but it's a basic reality that I don't have any mechanics anywhere near me,, certainly not for an old Guzzi,,, I'm about as far back in the bush as you can get,, with plans to move back a little closer to the city,, but first I have to get this bike in my kitchen back together and running  :beat_horse. With the help of KiwiRoy, LeRoy and many others,, I've solved a lot of issues and was really close to being up and running, until this last set back,,, and it's a major one,,,aaarrrgghhhh,,lol.

But it's all good, and she still puts a smile on my face when I look at her,, would be nice to go for a ride again soon though :bike

Tks

Kelly

Before you got sidetracked by the electrical stuff and after the tensionerectomy, did the bike run?

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2015, 12:34:47 PM »
Houston, we have a problem ???


Page 2 is missing.
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Offline 80CX100

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Re: Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2015, 01:25:23 PM »
Hey Roy, I managed to digest most of what you wrote before it disappeared.

I have a better understanding of your theory of being out 90 degrees,,, I had a good long talk with my brother who is a very good engine mechanic(formerly by trade). He doesn't know Guzzis, but when I described the design and your description of being out by 90 degrees,,, and explained to him what I had disturbed and what had been left alone,,, the first thing that came to his mind, was that when I put the new timing chain on,,, the alignment for the cam/crank sprockets may have lined up, but it sounds like the crankshaft may have been one revolution out of synch.

I know I was very particular about making sure the sprockets didn't move in relation to one another,,, but the reality is,,, it was well over a year ago,,, I remember at that time that the timing chest was open for quite a while sitting in my kitchen waiting for parts to come in from the US,,, it's entirely possible that the position of the crankshaft might have been disturbed and I just matched up the lines not realizing I was a revolution out.

Does that make sense and fit your theory,,, it's the only possible explanation I can come up with.

I have to put it on hold for a couple of days, I'm out of food and cigarettes, so I have to make a run into the city, take care of a couple of chores,,I'll be away from the bike, hopefully I'll be able to get onto a friends computer,,, I'm very interested in what you and others have to say.

Tks Kelly
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2015, 02:08:35 PM »
Kelly,
          If you send me an e-mail I will send you a sketch, I cannot post pictures from this location but I can e-mail them, I sent a PM earlier.

I recently put an Eldorado back together, it has the opposite of your situation only one set of points but two lobes on the cam, it took me a while to figure out which lobe I should use. If I had used the wrong lobe one cylinder would have been 90 out.

The quickest way of checking might be for you to just set the motor in firing position then use the other set of points to try it
« Last Edit: May 25, 2015, 02:19:21 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline 80CX100

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Re: Update Timing Chain? issues left cylinder Tonti Big Block
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2015, 02:13:23 PM »
Hey Roy, I replied to you, but just in case it didn't go through

kellywhite713atgmai ldotcom

tks Kelly
2008 California Vintage
2003 V11 Lemans
2007 Griso 1100
1979 G5 & 1980 Lemans CX100
2010 Suzuki DR650 & 1978 SR500

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell

 

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