Author Topic: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio  (Read 2670 times)

Offline nose2wind

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Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« on: December 24, 2018, 09:56:50 AM »
Read up on all the previous post on this fix.  I have had these symptoms, but mostly when the bike is hot and been sitting for about 30 min.  Changed relay, all connections good, battery new, etc.  Lately the issue is back and occurring at cold start.  This is good, because I can diagnose.  When this happens, I can hear the Start relay clicking (up front on Stelvio) but no go.  I can jump start the bike using Solenoid to starter method.  Pretty sure this is Startus interruptus.  It seems the best method is to run new wire direct from battery to yellow wire at starter relay up front.  Is this correct?  I noticed another method is to ad a relay at rear (near starter)  I assume by running a new wire from battery to yellow lead at front relay is an effort to bypass any voltage drop being cause in that yellow wire.  In general terms this new higher voltage makes it through the front start relay back to the solenoid and engages the starter.  Any comments before I start this mod? Thanks!

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2018, 10:48:04 AM »
You got the idea, never hurts to nave more juice to the relay. Only change it 1 time, better than getting jumper wire out.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2018, 04:34:53 PM »
Both methods are really the same, they both result in more current to the solenoid.
The solenoid would like 40 - 45 Amps but Guzzi put it on a starvation diet.

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Stelvio.gif
If you start by looking at the starter (25) you see just a simple box, this is ok to represent the starter but it gives you no idea how it works, the solenoid that sits on top is actually 2 coils. one that draws 11 Amps, the other will draw 40 if its fed 12 Volts.
The two coils working together make a very strong electro magnet that pulls the starter gear into mesh and closes the main contact to send 150 - 200 Amps through the starter and spin the motor over, the problem is to get enough current through the solenoid coils to let them do the job they were designed to do.

An easy way to prove the starter out is to replace the wire on terminal marked (1) with a few feet of 16 gauge wire, if you make sure the bike is in Neutral (pull the clutch in for good measure) then touch the other end on battery positive, you should find the starter pulls in with a real clunk and you get quite a spark on the wire when you break the circuit, that's caused by the electricity stored in the 2 coils.
I don't know what size wire they use on the Stelvio but my 07 Griso had something equivalent to 20 gauge.

Use the great Carl Allison drawing I posted and trace the wire back from the starter solenoid all the way to its point of origin the battery. You will see the wire comes in this case from a pair of relays 3 & 4 (most Guzzis only have 1 relay) but ignoring that for the moment trace the wire internally through the coil you will see it goes to a contact and the other contact ends up on a Yellow wire.
The yellow wire works its way across to the ignition switch and also a branch goes down to fuse 2 and from there back up via a Green /Black to the ignition switch. Another branch of the yellow goes to the Number plate light 20 and a Glove Box Relay, we will get back to that.
From the ignition switch theres a couple of Red/Yellow wires that combine and finally work there way down to a main fuse at the battery.
You might wonder why the electricity can't find its way from the Red/Yellow wires at the switch to the Yellow wire and straight across to the Start Relays, I wondered that but I don't believe there's a contact in the switch as its shown, the electrons have to go the long way around via fuse 2.

By the time the electrons find their way back and forth they are feeling a bit weak and on a good day they will find enough energy to pull the starter into mesh, on a bad day the solenoid just sits there pulling 15 - 20 Amps without moving.

The idea of relays is to boost a weak signal and make it strong or isolate signals of different Voltage from one another. In this case its to make a weak signal strong, that's hard to do if the power supply is weak, So what we do (the MPH kit does this also) is make sure the relay has a good strong power source.
I suggest you purchase a roll of 16 Gauge Yellow wire and connect it to the two relays, just snip the existing wire before it splits and crimp it to the relay end with a butt splice or by soldering if you prefer. At the battery provide a 20 Amp in-line fuse.
So now you have a 20 Amp fuse to yellow wire to the two relays, from the two relays the existing wire should be sufficient to feed the solenoid but if it looks too small you can boost that up also either with another in parallel or replace it with a No 16.

This wiring change makes no difference to the start logic, it still won't crank with the key off.

Getting back to the yellow wire feeding the number plate light, I believe this is to allow for turning it on while parked, that's why it goes to the switch, for the park position, but interestingly if you look at the plate light it will give you an indication of the voltage at the start relay. I suspect you were to watch it when the starter hangs up it will go from full brightness to quite dim indicating low Voltage.

When the starter actually has enough energy to engage the current through the coils drops to about 1/4 and the Voltage will shoot back up.

A typical starter with a good power supply will engage and start working in about 15 milliseconds but with a weak supply it might take 50 to 100 or not at all.

Its important to insulate the other end of the yellow wire so it cannot short to chassis because it's used for other functions less demanding.


I suspect if you were to dismantle the ignition switch and clean the contacts it would also restore the starting but it will always be a weak link.
I may be wrong but I suspect the Moto Guzzi factory think the starter solenoid only draws about 10 or 11 Amps, thats all the current you would see while the starter is cranking over, Its the inrush current too quick to measure that causes the solenoid to fail and fuses to blow. The more power you feed the solenoid the less it uses because it works faster.

Would you be happy if your Guzzi was just running on one cylinder, then why put up with a starter that's only half working?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 06:22:56 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline nose2wind

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2018, 09:26:56 AM »
Thanks for the reply.  I have notice when pressing the starter button, the dash light seems to dim, you can hear the relay click and nothing happens, it then times out, (09 Stelvio start logic, doesn't require holding button) and you hear another relay click. 

I have also noted that sometimes it will start, but there is a noticeable delay from button press to actual started engage. 

I was going to go the yellow wire route, because the tank will be off for other service.  Do you feel both wires 2 relays need to be cut?  Do you prefer this method over the added relay near started.  That method seems less invasive, but not sure I like adding another relay into the loop.  Relay method also uses the solenoid wire to trip the new relay.  Isn't this an issue if the voltage is to low it will fail to trip the new relay?  Am I missing something?

Thanks,

David
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 09:48:59 AM by nose2wind »

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2018, 09:26:56 AM »

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2018, 12:14:42 PM »
There is a red wire that feeds fuse 4,5 & 6 on the panel that comes directly from the double 30A fuses, good place to get power to the yellow.
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Offline Kiwi Dave

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2018, 02:08:24 PM »
I have notice when pressing the starter button, the dash light seems to dim, you can hear the relay click and nothing happens, it then times out, (09 Stelvio start logic, doesn't require holding button) and you hear another relay click. 

I suggest you also check your battery connections, and the condition of the battery itself.

Offline nose2wind

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2018, 02:23:12 PM »
New Yassa,  fully charged.  All connections, including grounds A-OK


Offline nose2wind

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2018, 02:26:43 PM »
Guzzi Steve, When you refer to red wire feeding fuse 4,5,6 panel, you mean the fuse/relay block up front? 

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2018, 02:34:17 PM »
Yes, unless there is another under the seat but I think they are all up front. I'll look.  Just got back from a 20mi ride, it's 50* here.

Edit:  yes, fuses all up front but service manual has them lettered D,E,F. Should be a larger wire. It should go directly to the big double fuse down by the battery.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2018, 02:51:19 PM by guzzisteve »
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Offline Kiwi Dave

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2018, 03:27:07 PM »
New Yassa,  fully charged.  All connections, including grounds A-OK

The fact that the dash lights are dimming suggests a large voltage drop when there is a currrent demand on the battery, or a large internal resistance in the battery itself.  Have you tried checking the voltage of the battery when cranking, using an external voltmeter?

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2018, 04:32:06 PM »
I wouldn't be inclined to use fuse 4,5 or 6 but by all means use the red common to power your new fuse.
I don't know the layout like GuzziSteve

There will be no delay with the new supply. it will start faster than the day it left the factory.
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Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2018, 05:25:35 PM »
Correct, the common that feeds them Roy. I was using a hi-def diagram I got off the dealer technical site w/I was working. Then I deleted it somehow off the screen, I thought it was a shortcut to it but no it's gone.
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Startus Interuptus 09 Stelvio
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2018, 02:58:03 AM »
This is not the same bike, an 06 Griso but if you are curious have a look at the way this solenoid is wired

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2006_Griso_1100.gif
From the solenoid to a single relay (3)
From the other relay contact directly back to the fuse C which it shares with the Auxiliary Injection Relay, it doesn't go through the ignition switch.

With this in mind perhaps the new yellow feed could be fed from the same supply on the Stelvio fuse 4 in this case or just jumped across from the Auxiliary Relay
 

 
« Last Edit: December 26, 2018, 05:41:49 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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