Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Socalrob on August 21, 2017, 03:43:40 AM
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Put a set of Agostini pipes on the new Anniverario over the weekend. Put about 20 miles on with the baffles in, and about 20'miles with the baffles out.
With the baffles in my completely stock KTM 690 Enduro is considerably louder. With the baffles out Harley Davidson riders are covering their ears and yelling at me but I can't hear them over the bike.
Pretty sure I am putting them back in. Might ride it around like this for a day or two just for fun. But it may give me a headache.
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Put a set of Agostini pipes on the new Anniverario over the weekend. Put about 20 miles on with the baffles in, and about 20'miles with the baffles out.
With the baffles in my completely stock KTM 690 Enduro is considerably louder. With the baffles out Harley Davidson riders are covering their ears and yelling at me but I can't hear them over the bike.
Pretty sure I am putting them back in. Might ride it around like this for a day or two just for fun. But it may give me a headache.
Loud pipes save lives. And, Braaaap lives matter. How about a video?
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Another option might be to cut a portion of the dB killer off. That will gain a little more sound.
John Henry
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Interesting. The Agostini pipes on my V7 are plenty loud with baffles in.
I'm curious as to what might account to the difference.
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Interesting. The Agostini pipes on my V7 are plenty loud with baffles in.
I'm curious as to what might account to the difference.
The different, both obsolete, cylinder head designs between the old bikes and the III series will mean different types of noise with identical pipes. Long and the short of it is they'll both run worse the louder they are. If being a noisy moron is important to you? Knock yerselves ot. Just don't pretend the bike runs better. :thumb:
Pete
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Having 4 bikes in the garage right now with stock exhaust systems (including 2 Harleys) I think I can answer this one.
Baffles in = not an asshole.
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I cut almost half the length off the baffle on my Agostinis. Perfect compromise.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2015-August-8-V7-Special/i-gm8NzXS/1/9e74ba1a/M/20150902_214529-M.jpg)
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The KTM 690 with a open exhaust has one of the loudest exhaust notes on the road, that bike would straight up BARK at me whenever I pulled the clutch in. In comparison a V7 with open pipes is downright civil.
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The KTM 690 with a open exhaust has one of the loudest exhaust notes on the road, that bike would straight up BARK at me whenever I pulled the clutch in. In comparison a V7 with open pipes is downright civil.
KTM is 100% stock. I was actually surprised how loud it was in comparison.
Even when I had a Ducati Hypermotard 1100s with Termigoni slip one I kept the baffles in. On that bike using slipons still left the catylist down under the engine. I believe the catalyst actually did much of the noise reduction.
The Agostini pipes are straight through, even with the baffle. Actually amazing how quiet they are with the baffles in. You hear the engine chatter about equal to the exhaust.
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I have Lafranconi Competizione mufflers on mine. No baffles, most everyone has commented on how good it sounds. A beetle map took care of the decel pop, and it runs just fine.
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Having 4 bikes in the garage right now with stock exhaust systems (including 2 Harleys) I think I can answer this one.
Baffles in = not an asshole.
So... Kev? How do feel about loud pipes? :grin:
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The different, both obsolete, cylinder head designs between the old bikes and the III series will mean different types of noise with identical pipes. Long and the short of it is they'll both run worse the louder they are. If being a noisy moron is important to you? Knock yerselves ot. Just don't pretend the bike runs better. :thumb:
Pete
In these days of ultra lean factory tuning also aimed at noise reduction ahead of performance, I don't think that is completely true. A moderately freer flowing pipe coupled with a ECU tune/remap can improve a bike's performance. I know putting the termigoni slipons with the "racing" ECU really made my Hypermotard run much better.
My V7iii, by the way, had extremely few pops with the baffles in. With the baffles out lots of popping in decel. Of course that is without a remap, and supposedly the ECU will learn to some degree.
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I'm waiting for a real, no crap, dyno comparison of the stock exhaust vs aftermarket with tune. My money says that the difference will be minimal....maybe 2-3 hp with a loss of torque. I know that my V7 saw almost no difference with a tune. The bike did run smoother through the rev range but hp and torque were almost identical. In that case the limiting factor was Heron head design, not intake/exhaust. The V7 III is bound to have a jump up in performance due to an improved combustion chamber but Guzzi does not tend to leave a lot of performance on the table.
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I'm waiting for a real, no crap, dyno comparison of the stock exhaust vs aftermarket with tune. My money says that the difference will be minimal....maybe 2-3 hp with a loss of torque. I know that my V7 saw almost no difference with a tune. The bike did run smoother through the rev range but hp and torque were almost identical. In that case the limiting factor was Heron head design, not intake/exhaust. The V7 III is bound to have a jump up in performance due to an improved combustion chamber but Guzzi does not tend to leave a lot of performance on the table.
Agreed. Probably the main benefit of the new pipes is the weight difference. It is pretty staggering. I'm guessing 15 lbs total between stock and Agostini with the baffles in.
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I don't like too loud pipes. There must be some music in them, but if they are too loud I got a headache on a longer trip. :bike-037:
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In these days of ultra lean factory tuning also aimed at noise reduction ahead of performance, I don't think that is completely true. A moderately freer flowing pipe coupled with a ECU tune/remap can improve a bike's performance. I know putting the termigoni slipons with the "racing" ECU really made my Hypermotard run much better.
My V7iii, by the way, had extremely few pops with the baffles in. With the baffles out lots of popping in decel. Of course that is without a remap, and supposedly the ECU will learn to some degree.
I think it's been demonstrated more than once that the heron head design is the limiting factor in smallblock power. The only efforts that I've seen which produced much of a result involved larger pistons/jugs and/or headwork (like adding valves).
Shy of that a remap and some pipes aren't going to do much of anything for peak smallblock power.
Remember that most emissions standards for motorcycles are limited to very specific conditions like idle and steady throttle. Maps are often unregulated in heavy or wot conditions.
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I think it's been demonstrated more than once that the heron head design is the limiting factor in smallblock power. The only efforts that I've seen which produced much of a result involved larger pistons/jugs and/or headwork (like adding valves).
Shy of that a remap and some pipes aren't going to do much of anything for peak smallblock power.
Remember that most emissions standards for motorcycles are limited to very specific conditions like idle and steady throttle. Maps are often unregulated in heavy or wot conditions.
Agreed, although the V7iii does not have Heron heads.
One or two horsepower, drop 15 lbs, run a bit cooler (the catalysists are gone) and a deeper, throatier sound ( with the baffles in), should be all anybody expects from a set of pipes and a remap.
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I changed mine because of the cat burning fuel when my plug wire went bad. Made a large nasty spot on the muffler. Now it won't happen with no cat in the system.
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Rocker and I both suggested cutting down the dB killers. You might consider getting a set of extras so you can go back to the stockers if you are not happy.
I too cut down my by 1/2 on the 1400.
John Henry
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Put a set of Agostini pipes on the new Anniverario over the weekend. Put about 20 miles on with the baffles in, and about 20'miles with the baffles out.
With the baffles in my completely stock KTM 690 Enduro is considerably louder. With the baffles out Harley Davidson riders are covering their ears and yelling at me but I can't hear them over the bike.
Pretty sure I am putting them back in. Might ride it around like this for a day or two just for fun. But it may give me a headache.
Wait...HD riders are complaining the pipes are too loud???
what has the world comes to?!?!
KTM is 100% stock. I was actually surprised how loud it was in comparison.
Even when I had a Ducati Hypermotard 1100s with Termigoni slip one I kept the baffles in. On that bike using slipons still left the catylist down under the engine. I believe the catalyst actually did much of the noise reduction.
The Agostini pipes are straight through, even with the baffle. Actually amazing how quiet they are with the baffles in. You hear the engine chatter about equal to the exhaust.
KTM from what I have noticed are always build like dirt bikes even with their street bikes.
To your original question: due to incident that has occurred here in Great Vancouver area (https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/6rds4z/harleydavidson_owner_says_neighbour_trashed_bike/)
and my most awesome wife is a super light sleeper, I personally choose to have the baffle in...
It is already loud "enough", but I do agree it does sound more awesome without the baffle...
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Agreed, although the V7iii does not have Heron heads.
One or two horsepower, drop 15 lbs, run a bit cooler (the catalysists are gone) and a deeper, throatier sound ( with the baffles in), should be all anybody expects from a set of pipes and a remap.
Oh Duh, blinded by the solar eclipse glasses....or just plain too dumb to notice the thread said V7iii and not V7ii!
My bad.
I actually am curious if there is any larger effect on a new Hemi head smallblock.
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Wait...HD riders are complaining the pipes are too loud???
what has the world comes to?!?!
KTM from what I have noticed are always build like dirt bikes even with their street bikes.
To your original question: due to incident that has occurred here in Great Vancouver area (https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/6rds4z/harleydavidson_owner_says_neighbour_trashed_bike/)
and my most awesome wife is a super light sleeper, I personally choose to have the baffle in...
It is already loud "enough", but I do agree it does sound more awesome without the baffle...
Agreed, cutting the baffles down is an decent option. Before I do that I may ride it around for some time with the full baffles to see if I like it like that. I am guessing I will keep the full baffles.
With the baffles out its loud to the point of needing to shut it off before I turn into my drive at night to avoid disturbing the neighbors, and maybe needing to push it out to the curb before starting. Not worth the effort.
Not to mention it seems kind of silly to have a 52HP bike louder than a race bike (although still quiet compared to being at a MotoGP race - those bikes are truly loud - you feel it in your chest).
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Interesting. The Agostini pipes on my V7 are plenty loud with baffles in.
I'm curious as to what might account to the difference.
Could be years of listening to rock n roll in my youth? "Loud" may be as subjective as which windshield provides smooth air.
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In these days of ultra lean factory tuning also aimed at noise reduction ahead of performance, I don't think that is completely true. A moderately freer flowing pipe coupled with a ECU tune/remap can improve a bike's performance. I know putting the termigoni slipons with the "racing" ECU really made my Hypermotard run much better.
My V7iii, by the way, had extremely few pops with the baffles in. With the baffles out lots of popping in decel. Of course that is without a remap, and supposedly the ECU will learn to some degree.
(Sigh.) Not the old 'The new bikes are all mapped up way too lean' argument. It's been explained a dozen times that isn't true. I really can't be bothered rehashing it all over again, it's just plain tiresome.
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Rob , listen to Pete . Him and Beetle have done more research into how modern small blocks work than probably anyone .
Dusty
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Socalrob, When the bike is warmed up and idling do you notice any black smoke if you blip the throttle? I've seen it a couple of times on my V7II with non standard mufflers but it seems to have gone now.
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I wouldn't ride around san Francisco without baffles but I'd be fine going down Sydney road. Too much going on down there
Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
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(Sigh.) Not the old 'The new bikes are all mapped up way too lean' argument. It's been explained a dozen times that isn't true. I really can't be bothered rehashing it all over again, it's just plain tiresome.
Sincerely sorry Pete, did not intend to cause offense.
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Rob , listen to Pete . Him and Beetle have done more research into how modern small blocks work than probably anyone .
Dusty
Got it. Lurk more, post less. Thanks.
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Sincerely sorry Pete, did not intend to cause offense.
God's teeth! No offence was taken! The problem is that there is this vast misconception that 'Modern Guzzis are mapped up lean to meet the dictates of the evil Gubmint whose sole aim in life is to screw everybody over. This sort of tinfoil hattest nonsense gives me the screaming shits.
Yes, the mixture in the closed loop portions of the map is very crudely trimmed to enable the engines to pass the nowadays stringent emissions requirements. Why 'Crudely'? Because 'Crudely' is cheap! If the factories were willing to spend a bit more money developing the actual MAPPING the way the motors run, the amount of fuel they will use and the overall behaviour of the bike would be greatly improved. Could they meet the very tight rules? Probably yes if the job was done right. Will they be able to with E5? Dunno.
The actual maps themselves though are almost universally rich. They are trimmed lean by the ECU by means of input from the narrow band lambda sensor. As long as the lambda input is left on it doesn't matter what pipe you put on, in the closed loop portion of the mapping the ECU will ALWAYS trim the fuel to the same point it has been told is optimal.
Once out of the closed loop portion of the map the maps are built rich because a.) The factory knows that one of the first things noisy morons do is stick on louder pipes which with a heron or semi head design will tend to lean the mixture and they don't want a rash of holed pistons blotting their copy books and b.) by making them rich they run sub optimally meaning that if people fall off and try to sue because the bike was 'Too Powerful'l they have the evidence that they could of made it more powerful, (With a small block? Snigger!) but chose not to in the interests of safety etc, etc, blah, blah, blah Yes, this is a generalisation but it covers the pertinent issues.
If you want the engine to run optimally you have to turn off the lambda and build n open loop map for that pipe/engine/induction system. nasty little add-ons like sensor foolers don't work and can actually cause serious engine damage but they are popular because they are CHEAP. You pay peanuts? You get a monkey solution to a complex problem.
Fuel injection does NOT work like carburretors. Don't try and apply carburettor theory to a FI bike because you'll be on a hiding to nothing.
Good luck with whatever you try.
Pete
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Read this
http://www.bikeboy.org/open_closed_loop_efi.html
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God's teeth! No offence was taken! The problem is that there is this vast misconception that 'Modern Guzzis are mapped up lean to meet the dictates of the evil Gubmint whose sole aim in life is to screw everybody over. This sort of tinfoil hattest nonsense gives me the screaming shits.
Yes, the mixture in the closed loop portions of the map is very crudely trimmed to enable the engines to pass the nowadays stringent emissions requirements. Why 'Crudely'? Because 'Crudely' is cheap! If the factories were willing to spend a bit more money developing the actual MAPPING the way the motors run, the amount of fuel they will use and the overall behaviour of the bike would be greatly improved. Could they meet the very tight rules? Probably yes if the job was done right. Will they be able to with E5? Dunno.
The actual maps themselves though are almost universally rich. They are trimmed lean by the ECU by means of input from the narrow band lambda sensor. As long as the lambda input is left on it doesn't matter what pipe you put on, in the closed loop portion of the mapping the ECU will ALWAYS trim the fuel to the same point it has been told is optimal.
Once out of the closed loop portion of the map the maps are built rich because a.) The factory knows that one of the first things noisy morons do is stick on louder pipes which with a heron or semi head design will tend to lean the mixture and they don't want a rash of holed pistons blotting their copy books and b.) by making them rich they run sub optimally meaning that if people fall off and try to sue because the bike was 'Too Powerful'l they have the evidence that they could of made it more powerful, (With a small block? Snigger!) but chose not to in the interests of safety etc, etc, blah, blah, blah Yes, this is a generalisation but it covers the pertinent issues.
If you want the engine to run optimally you have to turn off the lambda and build n open loop map for that pipe/engine/induction system. nasty little add-ons like sensor foolers don't work and can actually cause serious engine damage but they are popular because they are CHEAP. You pay peanuts? You get a monkey solution to a complex problem.
Fuel injection does NOT work like carburretors. Don't try and apply carburettor theory to a FI bike because you'll be on a hiding to nothing.
Good luck with whatever you try.
Pete
Thanks Pete, very informative.
Will say that I notice about zero performance difference running around the past couple of days with the baffles out, other than there is a freeway tunnel on my commute to work and its kind of fun to stick the throttle at WO just to here the reverberations.
Maybe, just maybe, on a long uphill freeway run there is a bit more at very top end. For comparison, bike was still pulling pretty strong at 95mph where a used V7 I test rode maxed out at 85.
I am putting the baffles back in, which, technically, makes these pipes conform to Euro noise standards (maybe 93db instead of 91 db?).
Back to lean bike topics, I have owned BMW & Ducati bikes. Seems like BMW (and my MG V7iii was about perfect too) is better at good fueling EFI in a complete stock state, whereas Ducati (at least the air cooled ones like my Hypermotard 1100S) seem to need to have a "racing" ECU installed (which comes with Termigoni slipons and a revised airbox lid) in order to be what I consider to be "good fueling", ie, not stumble when opening the throttle in first gear. The Ducati with the racing ECU was running much richer, just as evidenced by the soot on the end of the pipe, not to mention the dismal gas mileage. Ideas on why? Perhaps making the map rich is just a cheap way to make the engine run better, and its harder to make a leaner map run well?
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Got it. Lurk more, post less. Thanks.
Dang , not what I was trying to suggest at all . Rob , we sort of know each other , you are a bright insightful guy , was only saying that Pete and Beetle either know the answer , or will find it .
Carry on .
Dusty
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Point of reference, shortly after break-in I was playing with a GPS tracking app and my V7 and broke the ton with something left.... Probably not much, but something.
I currently run 2 Harleys, 1 Guzzi, and 1 Ducati, all with stock intakes, exhausts, and mapping.
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Point of reference, shortly after break-in I was playing with a GPS tracking app and my V7 and broke the ton with something left.... Probably not much, but something.
I currently run 2 Harleys, 1 Guzzi, and 1 Ducati, all with stock intakes, exhausts, and mapping.
Sure, but this is a long straight uphill grade, maybe 6% (anyway, steep enough that on the downhill side of the freeway you can coast at freeway speeds in neutral and pick up speed)?
What year is your Ducati? Mine was a 2008, and seriously, the stock fueling kind of sucked, and back then "most" Ducati owners went the route I did. Meanwhile, my old 2007 BMW GSA is spot on fueling wise bone stock.
Here in CA I do not think dealers will be able to sell "race" ECUs much longer. CARB is starting to crack down from what I understand.
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Sure, but this is a long straight uphill grade, maybe 6% (anyway, steep enough that on the downhill side of the freeway you can coast at freeway speeds in neutral and pick up speed)?
What year is your Ducati? Mine was a 2008, and seriously, the stock fueling kind of sucked, and back then "most" Ducati owners went the route I did. Meanwhile, my old 2007 BMW GSA is spot on fueling wise bone stock.
Here in CA I do not think dealers will be able to sell "race" ECUs much longer. CARB is starting to crack down from what I understand.
Current all EFI fleet:
2007 XL1200Lr
2011 M696
2013 V7 Stone
2016 FLHTP
previous EFI bikes included:
1996 RK
1996 R1100RSa
2000 Jackal (replaced crossover)
2003 Buell ST3 (came w/ race ECM)
2006 Breva 1100 (needed Guzzitech reflash to stop pinging, replaced crossover to get rid of cat heat)
So most were bone stock, but a few were tweaked for a reason.
Most ran just fine, ESPECIALLY the 96 RK and the Jackal (both with essentially the same Weber-Marelli system).
The Duc had literally been flawless and only needed one unscheduled repair so far, a preseason rear brake bleed.
All that said the later model the bike, the leaner they run in closed loop so I could understand some remapping if only for that (heat) or to improve efficiency if the factory map was particularly bad.
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My V7 with Ago pipes, with the dB killers in is about as loud as I'd want any bike to be. It runs very nicely now that Mark has sorted the fueling and will amble quite briskly, (In V7 terms.) up to 75-80mph and will crack an indicated 'Ton' without feeling too cruel but as has been noted many times before it's the Herron head design that is the true limiting factor with the V7 motor. Quite simply it's very hard to get much, if any, more top end out of them. Add in the single TB and the crude nature of the MUIG3 controller and it's obvious that the main thing you would want to try and improve is overal ride-ability rather than chasing top end.
Same story as with virtually everything nowadays. If it isn't 'Powerful' enough for you? Buy something else!
Pete
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Well, I put the baffles back in last night after riding home from work. Peace and civilization has returned to my neighborhood.
Bike was just way too loud without them. I ride with ear plugs and it was too loud even then. Now, of course, when I started it up in my garage with the baffles in, it still sounded too loud. Hopefully I will settle down with it.
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I don't like too loud pipes. There must be some music in them, but if they are too loud I got a headache on a longer trip. :bike-037:
+ 1
I hear ya. My V7 III has Minstrals with the baffles in and has a nice baritone voice, the Goldielocks sound, not too loud, not to quiet. At interstate speed all I hear is a gentle purrrrrrrrr.
Paul
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Hey Rob, I know you put the db killers back in. How loud would you say the stock exhaust was compared to the agostini? I was trying to find some decibel figures online and couldn't.
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Hey Rob, I know you put the db killers back in. How loud would you say the stock exhaust was compared to the agostini? I was trying to find some decibel figures online and couldn't.
IIRC the pipes come with a certification sheet that says they meet Euro sound levels of 95db for non catalyst applications.
Supposedly stock is 91db.
This seems about right.
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I cut almost half the length off the baffle on my Agostinis. Perfect compromise.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2015-August-8-V7-Special/i-gm8NzXS/1/9e74ba1a/M/20150902_214529-M.jpg)
Thinking about doing this on my V9 Agostinis. How did you arrive at cutting half of them? Did you consider a shorter bit of cut?
Thanks. It’s too loud with baffles out and too quiet with them in so your compromise makes sense. Anyway, better than drilling holes. :~)
inditx
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Thinking about doing this on my V9 Agostinis. How did you arrive at cutting half of them? Did you consider a shorter bit of cut?
Thanks. It�s too loud with baffles out and too quiet with them in so your compromise makes sense. Anyway, better than drilling holes. :~)
inditx
It was just a WAG. I cut about 40% of it off and was lucky that the sound was "just right".
Used a Sawzall and then sanded the sharp edges. Worked out well.
Everyone who heard the bike would comment on the nice quality sound.
I've sold the mufflers to Sib and he says they sound great on his bike, so I got what I wanted with the first cut.
Good thing is, it would be easy to "tune" it with cutting small sections off until you get the sound you like.
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It was just a WAG. I cut about 40% of it off and was lucky that the sound was "just right".
Used a Sawzall and then sanded the sharp edges. Worked out well.
Everyone who heard the bike would comment on the nice quality sound.
I've sold the mufflers to Sib and he says they sound great on his bike, so I got what I wanted with the first cut.
Good thing is, it would be easy to "tune" it with cutting small sections off until you get the sound you like.
10-4 Thanks
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I cut almost half the length off the baffle on my Agostinis. Perfect compromise.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2015-August-8-V7-Special/i-gm8NzXS/1/9e74ba1a/M/20150902_214529-M.jpg)
I buy a motorcycle, it didn't have a DB killer. Tell me which DB model is needed. I want to make it quieter
(https://i.ibb.co/wwvrFpP/photo-2021-04-24-23-32-30.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wwvrFpP)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuqTEru9Epk
(https://i.ibb.co/GnZMjRc/2021-04-28-10-33-42.png) (https://ibb.co/GnZMjRc)
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I buy a motorcycle, it didn't have a DB killer. Tell me which DB model is needed. I want to make it quieter
(https://i.ibb.co/wwvrFpP/photo-2021-04-24-23-32-30.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wwvrFpP)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuqTEru9Epk
(https://i.ibb.co/GnZMjRc/2021-04-28-10-33-42.png) (https://ibb.co/GnZMjRc)
I would email agostini. I had this issue with a bike I bought, and I was able to get the DB killers only direct from the manufacturer
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I would email agostini. I had this issue with a bike I bought, and I was able to get the DB killers only direct from the manufacturer
Thanks for the good advice
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I would email agostini. I had this issue with a bike I bought, and I was able to get the DB killers only direct from the manufacturer
(https://i.ibb.co/9r7YXWQ/photo-2021-04-29-09-24-46-2.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9r7YXWQ)
Ciao
Yes correct are without dbkiller , you have two possibility
First : standard db killer in stainless steel , these fit perfectly the only difference is the paint but after 50 km (available from tomorrow)
https://ecommerce.agostinimandello.com/index.php?id_product=476308&id_product_attribut e=0&rewrite=amdbkconico&controller=product&id_lang=1
(https://ecommerce.agostinimandello.com/index.php?id_product=476308&id_product_attribute=0&rewrite=amdbkconico&controller=product&id_lang=1)
Second : db killer painted in black ( available in around 10 days)
https://ecommerce.agostinimandello.com/index.php?id_product=537756&id_product_attribut e=0&rewrite=AMDBKCONICOVN&controller=product&id_lang=1
(https://ecommerce.agostinimandello.com/index.php?id_product=537756&id_product_attribute=0&rewrite=AMDBKCONICOVN&controller=product&id_lang=1)
Best Regards / Cordiali saluti
Luca - Team Agostini
assistenza@agostinimandello.com