Author Topic: Agostini pipes on a V7iii  (Read 9484 times)

Offline chrisk

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2017, 09:36:59 AM »

Offline Socalrob

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2017, 01:49:53 PM »
God's teeth! No offence was taken! The problem is that there is this vast misconception that 'Modern Guzzis are mapped up lean to meet the dictates of the evil Gubmint whose sole aim in life is to screw everybody over. This sort of tinfoil hattest nonsense gives me the screaming shits.

Yes, the mixture in the closed loop portions of the map is very crudely trimmed to enable the engines to pass the nowadays stringent emissions requirements. Why 'Crudely'? Because 'Crudely' is cheap! If the factories were willing to spend a bit more money developing the actual MAPPING the way the motors run, the amount of fuel they will use and the overall behaviour of the bike would be greatly improved. Could they meet the very tight rules? Probably yes if the job was done right. Will they be able to with E5? Dunno.

The actual maps themselves though are almost universally rich. They are trimmed lean by the ECU by means of input from the narrow band lambda sensor. As long as the lambda input is left on it doesn't matter what pipe you put on, in the closed loop portion of the mapping the ECU will ALWAYS  trim the fuel to the same point it has been told is optimal.

Once out of the closed loop portion of the map the maps are built rich because a.) The factory knows that one of the first things noisy morons do is stick on louder pipes which with a heron or semi head design will tend to lean the mixture and they don't want a rash of holed pistons blotting their copy books and b.) by making them rich they run sub optimally meaning that if people fall off and try to sue because the bike was 'Too Powerful'l they have the evidence that they could of made it more powerful, (With a small block? Snigger!) but chose not to in the interests of safety etc, etc, blah, blah, blah Yes, this is a generalisation but it covers the pertinent issues.

If you want the engine to run optimally you have to turn off the lambda and build n open loop map for that pipe/engine/induction system. nasty little add-ons like sensor foolers don't work and can actually cause serious engine damage but they are popular because they are CHEAP. You pay peanuts? You get a monkey solution to a complex problem.

Fuel injection does NOT work like carburretors. Don't try and apply carburettor theory to a FI bike because you'll be on a hiding to nothing.

Good luck with whatever you try.

Pete

Thanks Pete, very informative.

Will say that I notice about zero performance difference running around the past couple of days with the baffles out, other than there is a freeway tunnel on my commute to work and its kind of fun to stick the throttle at WO just to here the reverberations.

Maybe, just maybe, on a long uphill  freeway run there is a bit more at very top end.  For comparison, bike was still pulling pretty strong at 95mph where a used V7 I test rode maxed out at 85.

I am putting the baffles back in, which, technically, makes these pipes conform to Euro noise standards (maybe 93db instead of 91 db?). 

Back to lean bike topics, I have owned BMW & Ducati bikes.  Seems like BMW (and my MG V7iii was about perfect too) is better at good fueling EFI in a complete stock state, whereas Ducati (at least the air cooled ones like my Hypermotard 1100S) seem to need to have a "racing" ECU installed (which comes with Termigoni slipons and a revised airbox lid) in order to be what I consider to be "good fueling", ie, not stumble when opening the throttle in first gear.  The Ducati with the racing ECU was running much richer, just as evidenced by the soot on the end of the pipe, not to mention the dismal gas mileage.  Ideas on why?  Perhaps making the map rich is just a cheap way to make the engine run better, and its harder to make a leaner map run well?

oldbike54

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2017, 02:00:24 PM »
Got it. Lurk more, post less.  Thanks.

 Dang , not what I was trying to suggest at all . Rob , we sort of know each other , you are a bright insightful guy , was only saying that Pete and Beetle either know the answer , or will find it .

 Carry on .

 Dusty

Online Kev m

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2017, 02:46:18 PM »
Point of reference, shortly after break-in I was playing with a GPS tracking app and my V7 and broke the ton with something left.... Probably not much, but something.

I currently run 2 Harleys, 1 Guzzi, and 1 Ducati, all with stock intakes, exhausts, and mapping.
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2017, 02:46:18 PM »

Offline Socalrob

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2017, 03:13:10 PM »
Point of reference, shortly after break-in I was playing with a GPS tracking app and my V7 and broke the ton with something left.... Probably not much, but something.

I currently run 2 Harleys, 1 Guzzi, and 1 Ducati, all with stock intakes, exhausts, and mapping.

Sure, but this is a long straight uphill grade, maybe 6% (anyway, steep enough that on the downhill side of the freeway you can coast at freeway speeds in neutral and pick up speed)? 

What year is your Ducati?  Mine was a 2008, and seriously, the stock fueling kind of sucked, and back then "most" Ducati owners went the route I did.  Meanwhile, my old 2007 BMW GSA is spot on fueling wise bone stock.

Here in CA I do not think dealers will be able to sell "race" ECUs much longer. CARB is starting to crack down from what I understand.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 03:15:28 PM by Socalrob »

Online Kev m

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2017, 03:21:34 PM »
Sure, but this is a long straight uphill grade, maybe 6% (anyway, steep enough that on the downhill side of the freeway you can coast at freeway speeds in neutral and pick up speed)? 

What year is your Ducati?  Mine was a 2008, and seriously, the stock fueling kind of sucked, and back then "most" Ducati owners went the route I did.  Meanwhile, my old 2007 BMW GSA is spot on fueling wise bone stock.

Here in CA I do not think dealers will be able to sell "race" ECUs much longer. CARB is starting to crack down from what I understand.
Current all EFI fleet:

2007 XL1200Lr
2011 M696
2013 V7 Stone
2016 FLHTP

previous EFI bikes included:

1996 RK
1996 R1100RSa
2000 Jackal (replaced crossover)
2003 Buell ST3 (came w/ race ECM)
2006 Breva 1100 (needed Guzzitech reflash to stop pinging, replaced crossover to get rid of cat heat)

So most were bone stock, but a few were tweaked for a reason.

Most ran just fine, ESPECIALLY the 96 RK and the Jackal (both with essentially the same Weber-Marelli system).

The Duc had literally been flawless and only needed one unscheduled repair so far, a preseason rear brake bleed.

All that said the later model the bike, the leaner they run in closed loop so I could understand some remapping if only for that (heat) or to improve efficiency if the factory map was particularly bad.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 06:00:29 PM by Kev m »
Current Fleet

18 Guzzi V7III Carbon Dark
16 HD FLHP
13 Guzzi V7 Stone
11 Duc M696

pete roper

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2017, 04:43:57 PM »
My V7 with Ago pipes, with the dB killers in is about as loud as I'd want any bike to be. It runs very nicely now that Mark has sorted the fueling and will amble quite briskly, (In V7 terms.) up to 75-80mph and will crack an indicated 'Ton' without feeling too cruel but as has been noted many times before it's the Herron head design that is the true limiting factor with the V7 motor. Quite simply it's very hard to get much, if any, more top end out of them. Add in the single TB and the crude nature of the MUIG3 controller and it's obvious that the main thing you would want to try and improve is overal ride-ability rather than chasing top end.

Same story as with virtually everything nowadays. If it isn't 'Powerful' enough for you? Buy something else!

Pete

Offline Socalrob

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2017, 10:57:49 AM »
Well, I put the baffles back in last night after riding home from work.  Peace and civilization has returned to my neighborhood. 

Bike was just way too loud without them.  I ride with ear plugs and it was too loud even then.  Now, of course, when I started it up in my garage with the baffles in, it still sounded too loud.  Hopefully I will settle down with it.

Offline roadscum

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2017, 10:34:06 PM »
I don't like too loud pipes. There must be some music in them, but if they are too loud I got a headache on a longer trip. :bike-037:
+ 1

I hear ya. My V7 III has Minstrals with the baffles in and has a nice baritone voice, the Goldielocks sound, not too loud, not to quiet. At interstate speed all I hear is a gentle purrrrrrrrr.

Paul
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing " - Socrates

Paul M. in SW Florida: 318 miles, 11 curves and not a Guzzi dealer in sight!

Offline Rhodan

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2017, 11:07:15 PM »
Hey Rob, I know you put the db killers back in.  How loud would you say the stock exhaust was compared to the agostini?  I was trying to find some decibel figures online and couldn't. 

Offline Socalrob

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2017, 02:07:39 AM »
Hey Rob, I know you put the db killers back in.  How loud would you say the stock exhaust was compared to the agostini?  I was trying to find some decibel figures online and couldn't.

IIRC the pipes come with a certification sheet that says they meet Euro sound levels of 95db for non catalyst applications.

Supposedly stock is 91db.

This seems about right. 

Offline inditx

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #41 on: September 19, 2017, 02:21:59 PM »
I cut almost half the length off the baffle on my Agostinis.  Perfect compromise.



Thinking about doing this on my V9 Agostinis. How did you arrive at cutting half of them? Did you consider a shorter bit of cut?
Thanks. Itís too loud with baffles out and too quiet with them in so your compromise makes sense. Anyway, better than drilling holes. :~)
inditx

Offline rocker59

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #42 on: September 19, 2017, 09:11:24 PM »
Thinking about doing this on my V9 Agostinis. How did you arrive at cutting half of them? Did you consider a shorter bit of cut?
Thanks. It�s too loud with baffles out and too quiet with them in so your compromise makes sense. Anyway, better than drilling holes. :~)
inditx

It was just a WAG.  I cut about 40% of it off and was lucky that the sound was "just right".

Used a Sawzall and then sanded the sharp edges.  Worked out well.

Everyone who heard the bike would comment on the nice quality sound.
 
I've sold the mufflers to Sib and he says they sound great on his bike, so I got what I wanted with the first cut.

Good thing is, it would be easy to "tune" it with cutting small sections off until you get the sound you like.
Michael T.
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1996 Moto Guzzi Sport 1100
"Do what you can, with what you have, where you are." - Theodore Roosevelt

Offline inditx

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2017, 10:21:09 AM »
It was just a WAG.  I cut about 40% of it off and was lucky that the sound was "just right".

Used a Sawzall and then sanded the sharp edges.  Worked out well.

Everyone who heard the bike would comment on the nice quality sound.
 
I've sold the mufflers to Sib and he says they sound great on his bike, so I got what I wanted with the first cut.

Good thing is, it would be easy to "tune" it with cutting small sections off until you get the sound you like.

10-4 Thanks

Offline maxi123

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #44 on: April 28, 2021, 08:01:24 AM »
I cut almost half the length off the baffle on my Agostinis.  Perfect compromise.



I buy a motorcycle, it didn't have a DB killer. Tell me which DB model is needed. I want to make it quieter



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuqTEru9Epk







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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #45 on: April 28, 2021, 08:22:52 AM »
I buy a motorcycle, it didn't have a DB killer. Tell me which DB model is needed. I want to make it quieter



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuqTEru9Epk





I would email agostini. I had this issue with a bike I bought, and I was able to get the DB killers only direct from the manufacturer
Chad (Shadrach) in Asheville NC
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Offline maxi123

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2021, 09:21:42 AM »
I would email agostini. I had this issue with a bike I bought, and I was able to get the DB killers only direct from the manufacturer

Thanks for the good advice

Offline maxi123

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #47 on: April 29, 2021, 04:13:25 AM »
I would email agostini. I had this issue with a bike I bought, and I was able to get the DB killers only direct from the manufacturer





Ciao

Yes correct are without dbkiller , you have two possibility

First : standard db killer in stainless steel , these fit perfectly the only difference is the paint but after 50 km (available from tomorrow)

https://ecommerce.agostinimandello.com/index.php?id_product=476308&id_product_attribut e=0&rewrite=amdbkconico&controller=product&id_lang=1

 

Second : db killer painted in black ( available in around 10 days)

https://ecommerce.agostinimandello.com/index.php?id_product=537756&id_product_attribut e=0&rewrite=AMDBKCONICOVN&controller=product&id_lang=1


Best Regards / Cordiali saluti
Luca - Team Agostini

assistenza@agostinimandello.com
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 04:34:52 AM by maxi123 »

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Re: Agostini pipes on a V7iii
« Reply #48 on: April 29, 2021, 06:59:21 AM »
Don't for get to ask for the C clips. It's quite possible they don't come by default.

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and the flying motor singing.
Samuel C. Lancaster 1921

 

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