Author Topic: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?  (Read 3531 times)

Offline jrt

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2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« on: September 26, 2021, 11:33:01 AM »
I have a 2003 EV hydro that won't start.  It simply cut out on me driving home- I thought it ran out of gas.  So, I put some gas in it, it started, I drove to the gas station, filled it up, started home and it died again.  I think I've covered the common issues- I thought it might be the relays, so I ordered new ones from Dan- replaced them all.  Checked all the fuses.  I have the sidestand leads wired together permanently. 

Next, I removed the tank, checked all the connections (there's five big waterproof connectors under the tank).  They look fine- no corrosion.  Looked for exposed or loose wiring.  But- I could not find any connections that might have come loose.
The fuel pump cycles, all electrical devices (horn/signals lights) are working properly.  Fuel filter is new.

So now I am wondering if it might be the cam position sensor- I have the three-wire version, and no sensor on the bell housing.  After reading these two threads:
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=101903.0  (Smithswede's V7 wouldn't run)
and
https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=95648.0  (98 EV won't run)

I measured the resistance across the three leads (on the sensor side), but none of them show current- they are all infinite ohms.  Should I see 680 ohms across two of the leads? 

I don't see gas on the plugs, but it has been a week or two since it has run, so I didn't expect to see anything. I can pull out the sensor as well, but I don't know what I would look for if I did that. 
Any other tests I should run while it is apart?  I'm thinking maybe I should put the tank back on and try to crank it over, look for spark then check for gas on the plugs? That darn tank is heavy when it is full of gas.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 05:28:31 PM by jrt »
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1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2021, 01:25:59 PM »
It has the external fuel pump and filter.  Actually, I'm using a big-ass filter from a Subaru (don't judge me!) and it has less than 200 miles on it.  The 'new' tank I'm using was clean, the petcock (manual) flows just fine.   The throttle bodies are connected, the injectors have pressure (I had to tighten up the clamp to stop a leak on one side). 
The sockets for the relays and fuses look good- very little oxidation.  There may be a wire that's come loose under one of them, but I'm not seeing it yet.  One old relay did test bad, so that's what I initially thought it was.  I'll have another look at the sockets. 
I'll squirt some starter fluid in the intake...it might be next week before I get to the point where I can do that (work sucks!).  It is a good suggestion.
I will continue to follow up and post a resolution when I get it sorted.  Now, where did I put my electric hammer?
Thank you
JRT
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2021, 02:15:02 PM »
Yes. You should see about 680 ohms across two of the wires.  (One of the wires is just a sheathing that is grounded to minimize radio wave interference. 

At least on the V7, the tell tale sign of no cam phase signal is that you get BOTH an absence of spark, and an absence of fuel. 

I think my problem was a bad connector on the cam phase sensor wire.  It looked ok, but didn’t work.  Letting some Craig De-Oxit sit on it for a good while fixed it. 

FYI, you can get new ones much cheaper than stock Guzzi parts.  Lots were used on Fiats.  Just need to figure out the cross reference
« Last Edit: September 26, 2021, 10:43:06 PM by SmithSwede »
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2021, 04:52:07 PM »
Yes you need to know if the timing sensor is working.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2004_EV_Catalytic.gif
The pump will always prime when you turn the key On, that's just a simple timer inside the ECU turning on relay (50) to do that, nothing at all to do with the rotation sensor.
When you initiate cranking the timing sensor detects the engine rotation and turns On relay (50) again via the ECU so all you need to do is see if the relay is On, a little light bulb on the Red/Black wire, the 87 pin on relay (50) would be a good place to monitor that.
Another thing that will effect the smooth running is the condition of the signal to the ECU relay (52) its quite often less that 12 Volts due to a dirty contact, again a small lamp connected from 85 to 86 of the relay will monitor that.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2021, 05:25:24 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2021, 04:52:07 PM »

Offline pehayes

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2021, 07:57:42 PM »
I've had it happen twice on 98-EV.  Front timing sensor.  First time it was dirty contacts in the connector plug up under the tank.  Second time it was due to an open/broken wire.  Had to replace the sensor.

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Fremont CA

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2021, 09:28:00 PM »
General question:

I have much more automotive FI diagnosis experience than with cycles.  With automotive FI, since 1996, the ECU stores error codes for any circuit-related problems.

Don't motorcycle ECUs store problem codes?
1990 MilleGT

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2021, 02:20:00 AM »
General question:

I have much more automotive FI diagnosis experience than with cycles.  With automotive FI, since 1996, the ECU stores error codes for any circuit-related problems.

Don't motorcycle ECUs store problem codes?
Sure they do but how to read them? (I do know the answer you will give me)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 04:39:11 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2021, 02:57:09 AM »


I measured the resistance across the three leads (on the sensor side), but none of them show current- they are all infinite ohms.  Should I see 680 ohms across two of the leads? 

 
Yes as SmithSwede says the sensor should read about 680 Ohms. The sensor known as a Variable Reluctance Sensor, is a coil of wire wound around a tiny magnet. The magnet projects a small magnetic field that is influenced by the teeth of the Phonic wheel passing by, the small disturbances in the field are converted to a low level AC Voltage.
Of course if the coil is open circuit or the two pin connector is dirty this tiny AC Voltage cannot get through to the ECU.
Because the signal from the sensor is so weak its very important that the gap between the sensor and the Phonic wheel teeth is not too great, sometimes an owner will add an "O" ring to stop the oil leak making the gap too great. Read about this sensor in this old but very informative document http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf page 12 & 13, it gives the gap as 0.6 - 1.2 mm. It would be simple to measure this gap with feeler gauges however the gap is normally inaccessible, I check the setting by removing the sensor to stick a blob of something on the tip, bolt it back in place then wait for it to set up (I use JBQuick). Once its set up you can remove the sensor again and measure the thickness of the blob with a vernier caliper.
The sensor comes with a cable about a foot long so looking under the tank you will find the mating socket, inspect it closely for any sign of corrosion whatsoever, it must be pristine.
The colour plate on page 2 shows two sensors 7 & 8, you can see the socket nearby, later motors only have 1 sensor with a Phonic wheel on the camshaft. One tooth is missing from the phonic wheel, the ECU uses the extra gap as home position and counts from there to establish its place in the cycle.
When you turn the key On the motor is not turning over of course so the reluctance sensor is not producing any signal, a simple timer in the ECU starts the pump for the priming cycle pulling output Pin 2 to ground turning on the injection relay (50), powering up the two coils, two injectors and the fuel pump a couple of seconds later the timer releases pin 2 and the ECU waits for the sensor to pickup rotation.

Note I will refer to the 15M ECU pin numbers in this description but read the document referring to the diagram at the end for a P8 ECU, understand this and you have the basis of fuel injection.


I added this sketch showing how you can use LEDs as the lights the resistor limits the current to the LED so it doesn't burn out, A 12 Volt LED has a resistor built in.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2021, 12:54:43 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2021, 09:00:44 AM »
Thanks for the replies-  SS, KR, Pat- I must have had my multimeter set incorrectly (or a lead in the voltage instead of ohms).  I went back and checked the cam sensor again and it reads 700 ohms across the + and -.   I 'jiggled' the wires around- no change and the wire feels normal- so I don't think it is a broken lead.  I sprayed contact cleaner in the junction block- both sides.  It looks really good though.  I don't think this bike saw a lot of weather.  The wiring diagram from Carl Allison (and what I found on the web) suggests that the shield wire and ground should be connected- no resistance or is there a diode? 

Tonight, I'll pull the sensor out of the timing cover to inspect it.  It has a very slight weep of oil, so the o-ring should be changed out anyway.  Roy, I cannot think of how the gap between sensor and timing wheel could have changed, but anything is possible at this point.  After I get an o-ring,  I'll start to put it back together- I've got the wiring harness pulled out from the frame, so I'll need to dress it back in.

I checked the fuse and relay sockets and they look ok- all the relays are getting 12V on the 30 pin...I know it doesn't mean they all work, but the relays are new.  Roy, I'll make up some test lamps for the relays as you suggest.  Do you use LED's for that?
Once I get the tank on and gas hooked back up, I'll also try Roadkyll's suggestions and check for spark.
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2021, 10:38:09 PM »
Feel free to give the connectors more contact cleaner.  I “cleaned” mine several times and it looked fine.  But wasn’t.  Finally got it clean enough to work. 

You may have some metal crap built up on the head of the sensor.  Clean that off. 

I’m told there are fairly cheap meters ($60) that can read the output of a working sensor.  I don’t think you can tell anything with a voltmeter. 

FYI, the oil is likely leaking *through* the sensor, not from the O ring.  The fix is to use some of that locktite sealant on the face of the sensor itself so it soaks into the unit.  These sensors are not meant to be used in a wet oil environment but Guzzi does it anyway.   So they leak oil. 
« Last Edit: September 28, 2021, 07:23:55 PM by SmithSwede »
Accentuate the positive;
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Latch on to the affirmative;
Don't mess with Mister In-Between.

Offline SmithSwede

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2021, 10:40:18 PM »
Roy, that’s a brilliant chart.  Thanks !  I really need to get mine rigged up like this. 
Accentuate the positive;
Eliminate the negative;
Latch on to the affirmative;
Don't mess with Mister In-Between.

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2021, 01:20:53 PM »
Great chart, Roy- thank you!
Thanks SmithSwede- I'll do that. 
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Resolved
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2021, 04:18:06 PM »
Thanks for all your comments- they were very helpful and I think (maybe) I have this figured out. 
The wiring diagram, comments about the sensor and some reading on the EFI document were very helpful, so thanks for all  that. I made some LEDs and hooked them to the pins as Roy suggested and the ignition (52) stayed lit while the pump/injector/coils (relay 50, pin 87) flashed, cycled the pump then went off.  The injector relay (50) LED would not come back on when I turned the motor over.  Both went out as expected when the kill switch was turned off.
I also checked the plugs (dry) and sprayed a bit of starter in the intake (nothing).
So, I cleaned and cleaned the connections, measured and remeasured the resistance of the sensor- all good.
Then, when I took the sensor out for the second time, I noticed that one of the cogs was dead nuts on center in the hole.  So, I used my depth gauge to measure the distance between the machined face of the block and the tooth, and a vernier to measure the sensor reach- they gave a difference of 2.3-2.6 mm.
The sensor had two shims- one thick and one thin and an o-ring.  I removed the thinner 0.6 mm shim, put it all back together and it fired up on the first revolution. 
But!  It was running fine a month ago!  Did someone break into my house and put an extra shim in the phase sensor as a practical joke?  Did my crankshaft shrink?  Aliens?  :shocked:
Well, I'll take it out for a short ride tomorrow- I have some more parts to take care of.
Thanks, ya'll.
JRT
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1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2021, 05:56:14 PM »
Make sure you take your phone!  Stuff shrank overnight, it's the lil people.
"Pray through Carlo & your bike shall be healed"
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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2021, 11:36:44 PM »
'Twas the Keebler Elves , they be wicked little devils .

 Dusty

You got 'em over there too Dusty?
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Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Resolved
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2021, 11:49:08 PM »
Thanks for all your comments- they were very helpful and I think (maybe) I have this figured out. 
The wiring diagram, comments about the sensor and some reading on the EFI document were very helpful, so thanks for all  that. I made some LEDs and hooked them to the pins as Roy suggested and the ignition (52) stayed lit while the pump/injector/coils (relay 50, pin 87) flashed, cycled the pump then went off.  The injector relay (50) LED would not come back on when I turned the motor over.  Both went out as expected when the kill switch was turned off.
So it was just too much gap then, I don't think they come with an "O" ring but when it leaks oil the logical solution is to put one on, Im glad the tell-tail light worked out for you, as I said before the pump will always prime because it doesn't rely on the sensor for that, the motors not even turning. I would leave the lights in place, they don't do any harm just put on a light show.

FYI, the oil is likely leaking *through* the sensor, not from the O ring.  The fix is to use some of that locktite sealant on the face of the sensor itself so it soaks into the unit.  These sensors are not meant to be used in a wet oil environment but Guzzi does it anyway.   So they leak oil.
I often suspected that was the case, I've had experience with industrial sensors like that. the hard epoxy doesn't stick to the magnet or the soft cable coming out the back end, Oil doesn't hurt the internals, just makes a mess when it leaks back out the cable side.
Its a similar situation with the Guzzi ABS sensors the gap between the epoxy and the soft cable wicks water right inside to corrode/short out the connections, some silicone sealant applied is able to stick to the epoxy and the cable to form a flexible seal, if you have a later bike with ABS and ride in the rain attend to those.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 04:44:36 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline lucky phil

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Resolved
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2021, 11:53:51 PM »
Thanks for all your comments- they were very helpful and I think (maybe) I have this figured out. 
The wiring diagram, comments about the sensor and some reading on the EFI document were very helpful, so thanks for all  that. I made some LEDs and hooked them to the pins as Roy suggested and the ignition (52) stayed lit while the pump/injector/coils (relay 50, pin 87) flashed, cycled the pump then went off.  The injector relay (50) LED would not come back on when I turned the motor over.  Both went out as expected when the kill switch was turned off.
I also checked the plugs (dry) and sprayed a bit of starter in the intake (nothing).
So, I cleaned and cleaned the connections, measured and remeasured the resistance of the sensor- all good.
Then, when I took the sensor out for the second time, I noticed that one of the cogs was dead nuts on center in the hole.  So, I used my depth gauge to measure the distance between the machined face of the block and the tooth, and a vernier to measure the sensor reach- they gave a difference of 2.3-2.6 mm.
The sensor had two shims- one thick and one thin and an o-ring.  I removed the thinner 0.6 mm shim, put it all back together and it fired up on the first revolution. 
But!  It was running fine a month ago!  Did someone break into my house and put an extra shim in the phase sensor as a practical joke?  Did my crankshaft shrink?  Aliens?  :shocked:
Well, I'll take it out for a short ride tomorrow- I have some more parts to take care of.
Thanks, ya'll.
JRT

The sensor gap should be .7-.9mm. Your sensor set at 2.3-2.6 is miles away from spec and probably on the upper limit of what the sensor will tolerate. Only a tiny degradation in sensor capacity and it's no start. I'd set it to the correct gap myself as its now probably still to wide for reliability and good running. .

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 02, 2021, 11:58:43 PM by lucky phil »
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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2021, 11:59:59 PM »
Yeah , the little bastiges are everywhere , they get in your hair , in your clothes hamper , everywhere . During their rut you can't go anywhere W/O shooing them off the roads , a mating pair has taken up residence in our utility closet , won't even go into the trauma that is causing our cat .

 Dusty

The brastards ran off with one of of my rubber cushes from the rear drive.  Had six, straight in to a tray, didn't move my position but now only 5.  Gutted the garage. Gone.  Had to order in another one.  Brastards. :evil: :evil:
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Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Resolved
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2021, 08:54:31 AM »
Bruce is the only person I know that has been able to put the little fellers to good use, making gaskets.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_petcock_gasket_kit.html
Roy, I did leave the LEDs in place, but I cannot see them under the side cover (doh!).
There is a stepped edge on engine block- sure looks like an o-ring goes there.  The oil is definitely coming from inside the sensor, so SmithSwede's assessment is correct- a new o-ring aint gonna help.
Phil- I'll probably mess around with the sensor gap as I obsess about the oil leak!  Right now, I just want to drive it to work- no long trips.
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Not so Resolved
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2021, 04:51:02 PM »
Well, it did it again.  It's something intermittent that I haven't found. Maybe a broken wire?  I cannot feel it if it is.  Maybe the kill switch?  But the computer is still getting power, so I don't think so. 
It didn't start this morning when I was going to take it for a ride, so I pulled the sensor out....again....and there was a very small amount of swarf on it- so I cleaned it.  Measured again- it is 29.0 +/- .1 mm from the exterior block surface to the phonic wheel.  The sensor...I think it is 29.4 mm or so, so it definitely needs a spacer. 
Put it back together and it fired right up.  So I drove it around the block.  Parked.  Then it didn't start.  Then the next try it did.  G**d**n gremlins.
Anyone know where to get a Magneti SEN 8I3?  I looked, but cannot find one.
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline Tom H

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2021, 05:59:19 PM »
This might not be of much help, but...

You messed with the sensor. That means you messed with the wires. Maybe there is a bad connection? Next time it doesn't start. Wiggle the sensor wire, turn the bars, ect..

I'm also assuming that by it didn't start, you mean it just cranked all you wanted but did not start/run. Right?

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
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Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2021, 09:48:22 PM »
This might not be of much help, but...

You messed with the sensor. That means you messed with the wires. Maybe there is a bad connection? Next time it doesn't start. Wiggle the sensor wire, turn the bars, ect..

I'm also assuming that by it didn't start, you mean it just cranked all you wanted but did not start/run. Right?

Tom
Correct- I did wiggle any wire I could get a hold of, moved the bars, cycled the kill switch.  None of that helped.  With Roy's LEDs in place you can monitor whether the sensor (and ECU) pick up the rotation of the crankshaft.  It did not pick up rotation- that is, the ECU never turned on the coils/injectors/pump when I was turning the motor over.  So, I'm back to thinking that either the sensor is dying some weird slow death, or there is a broken wire somewhere in the harness.  It is a bit frustrating.   
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline Tom H

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2021, 10:10:57 PM »
Could be a bad sensor? A friend that rides HD, carried a spare crank position sensor. On a few long distance rides, someone would have one fail. At least on HD, the sensor fit the hole of many models, but you may have to cut and splice the wires.

I'm pretty sure the sensor is from a car, just don't remember which. Hopefully someone will come along with a part number.

EDIT: I'm sure you've tried removing a spark plug lead and plugging in a known good plug and grounding it to the head to see what happens when it's in no run mode?

Good luck!!!!
Tom
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 11:08:38 PM by Tom H »
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Not so Resolved
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2021, 11:08:59 PM »
Well, it did it again.  It's something intermittent that I haven't found. Maybe a broken wire?  I cannot feel it if it is.  Maybe the kill switch?  But the computer is still getting power, so I don't think so. 
It didn't start this morning when I was going to take it for a ride, so I pulled the sensor out....again....and there was a very small amount of swarf on it- so I cleaned it.  Measured again- it is 29.0 +/- .1 mm from the exterior block surface to the phonic wheel.  The sensor...I think it is 29.4 mm or so, so it definitely needs a spacer. 
Put it back together and it fired right up.  So I drove it around the block.  Parked.  Then it didn't start.  Then the next try it did.  G**d**n gremlins.
Anyone know where to get a Magneti SEN 8I3?  I looked, but cannot find one.
So what was your handy dandy LED telling you while this was going on? Never mind you said it wasn't coming on.
I never had any luck trying to measure the depth and subtracting the length, try my method with JB Quick or other fast setting substance, stick a blob to the tip then bolt it in place with a tooth centred in the hole.
After it's had time to set=up remove it again and measure the thickness of the blob with a vernier caliper. The JB Quick will not stick to the cog because it has a film of oil on it.
http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf Page 12/13
The gap should be 0.6 - 1.2 mm
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 07:50:09 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline lucky phil

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Not so Resolved
« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2021, 01:47:25 AM »
Well, it did it again.  It's something intermittent that I haven't found. Maybe a broken wire?  I cannot feel it if it is.  Maybe the kill switch?  But the computer is still getting power, so I don't think so. 
It didn't start this morning when I was going to take it for a ride, so I pulled the sensor out....again....and there was a very small amount of swarf on it- so I cleaned it.  Measured again- it is 29.0 +/- .1 mm from the exterior block surface to the phonic wheel.  The sensor...I think it is 29.4 mm or so, so it definitely needs a spacer. 
Put it back together and it fired right up.  So I drove it around the block.  Parked.  Then it didn't start.  Then the next try it did.  G**d**n gremlins.
Anyone know where to get a Magneti SEN 8I3?  I looked, but cannot find one.

Ebay for like $40usd. They are a common sensor. I bought 2 direct from China who are the only ones that still make them these days I think for $10usd each. You can still buy the oem old stock for $175usd I think but the Chinese ones look high quality and have worked totally fine on my engine. I only bought 2 because the shipping was $15usd at the time for 1 and the same for 2 so I bought a spare. The $40 ones will be the same Chinese repros as mine.

Ciao
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline lucky phil

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Not so Resolved
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2021, 02:28:13 AM »
So what was your handy dandy LED telling you while this was going on?
I never had any luck trying to measure the depth and subtracting the length, try my method with JB Quick or other fast setting substance, stick a blob to the tip then bolt it in place with a tooth centred in the hole.
After it's had time to set=up remove it again and measure the thickness of the blob with a vernier caliper. The JB Quick will not stick to the cog because it has a film of oil on it.
http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf Page 12/13
The gap should be 0.6 - 1.2 mm

Or you can use one of these or make one and get it accurate without the risk of JB weld or plasticine dropping in the engine.

Ciao

 
If you're not living on the edge you're taking up to much room.

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Not so Resolved
« Reply #26 on: October 04, 2021, 06:40:55 AM »
Or you can use one of these or make one and get it accurate without the risk of JB weld or plasticine dropping in the engine.

Ciao


That is a nice solution for someone who has access to a lathe, I offer my solution as a simple one that is quite safe if you take reasonable care.
I have had bad experience with Chinese parts on my Guzzi.
Alternator, Wheel bearings, Condenser failed almost from the start.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 07:09:40 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor?
« Reply #27 on: October 04, 2021, 09:56:20 AM »
Modeling clay works to measure gaps, too.

Could this be temperature related?

Could it be a coil failure?
The thought occurred to me.  If it were a coil failure, the LED that indicates power to the pump/coils/injectors (50) would be lit.  And there are two coils...I think, so the chance of them both failing at the same time is slim. 
Could be temperature related but I'm skeptical about that as well.  It is not simple hot/cold.  It didn't start when it was cold, then it did, ran for a bit, started when it was warm, then it didn't. 
I also considered low battery voltage, but I've kept it (Odyssey PC480) on a charger.  The starter works just fine and the voltage output on the bike above 2000 rpm is 13.7-13.8 V.
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline jrt

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Not so Resolved
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2021, 10:05:59 AM »
Ebay for like $40usd. They are a common sensor. I bought 2 direct from China who are the only ones that still make them these days I think for $10usd each. You can still buy the oem old stock for $175usd I think but the Chinese ones look high quality and have worked totally fine on my engine. I only bought 2 because the shipping was $15usd at the time for 1 and the same for 2 so I bought a spare. The $40 ones will be the same Chinese repros as mine.

Ciao

Thanks- I'll look into that.  I tried various auto parts stores online, but found nothing. 
And...I'll have to make up a tool like you posted.  I like that kind of thing.
L-720
1973 Eldorado
2003 Yardbird (1100 hydro)
2020 R1250RS

Offline Kiwi_Roy

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Re: 2003 EV no start, Cam sensor? Not so Resolved
« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2021, 11:04:51 AM »
The thought occurred to me.  If it were a coil failure, the LED that indicates power to the pump/coils/injectors (50) would be lit.  And there are two coils...I think, so the chance of them both failing at the same time is slim.
Now you're starting to think like a sparky
Thanks- I'll look into that.  I tried various auto parts stores online, but found nothing. 
And...I'll have to make up a tool like you posted.  I like that kind of thing.
For the non-lathe owners how about just tapping a small piece of flat material with a screw through it (c/w locknut) to touch the phonic wheel then it would be a simple matter of holding it against the sensor to see the gap. I thought about having a light to show when the wheel was contacted but that's over thinking.
The light on the 52 relay must be fully lit also, I have seen mine flickering at ~50% when the stand switch was faulty.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 05:51:30 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

 

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