Wildguzzi.com
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Bison on April 10, 2022, 12:48:50 PM
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Hi Folks,
Got my Norge out today and it won't turn over.
It has no power going to the solenoid when the starter button is pressed. If you take a wire from the positive side of the battery to the solenoid connector she turns over and starts right up no problem.
The startus interruptus has been done, the relay makes a very quiet click when you you switch the ignition on, nothing when you press the starter button though, I've swapped relays over, no difference. I cannot find a wiring diagram for the LI relay. Had the handlebar switch out, ok, side stand and neutral light goes off and on. All fuses ok. 12v or more going to the starter relay
I can not for the life of me find a wiring diagram I can either see or read to trace the solenoid wire back to a connector. And from what I can see the black wire disappears into the wiring loom.
Any help gratefully received.
Alan.
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This will probably be of little help but last year my 07 was doing same thing, ended up being tiny bit of corrosion under the + battery connection. I suppose if it starts by jumping it that rules out the kill switch. Sounds like you’ve checked everything I would have. Good luck, I’ll follow this post to hear the winning solution.
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sounds like bad connection somewhere.
My breva had a similar problem last year.
It ended up being a combination of the 3 things. Bad solenoid, too weak of a battery, and loose connection at the relay connection to the solenoid. Meter showed 12 volts, but the loose connection wouldn't let enough amps to pass to crank.
the solenoid was weak, it would start fine with a strong battery, like when I would jump from my truck, but not with my older battery.
Best charge I could get on the battery was about 12.2 volts.
I cleaned connections at battery and starter.
after having the starter cleaned and solenoid replaced, installed new battery it still wouldn't start. Started back tracing the connections from solenoid back. and that's when I noticed the wire from relay to solenoid was not tight. fixed it and it has been great every since.
Good luck, I really don't like electrical gremlins, they don't make any sense to me
Old Head
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I've had the same issues, I thought I had it fixed, but with the issues I'm having now, I'm not sure anymore. I did the startus interruptus relay loop. New starter, and a new battery. Everything worked as normal until I went to re-start out on a ride and only got a click. I discovered the main fuse blown and both headlights burned out again. I replaced the fuse, and headlights and checked the charging and everything is good , until I blew another main fuse. Replaced the fuse and disconnected the blower on the oil cooler because it seems to be the only thing not fused in that circuit.
This morning rode 20 miles to breakfast, on the way the abs light would sporadically light and the speedometer would fall. Lights were still working when I got to the restaurant and it started fine and ran fine all the way home, but now both headlights and burned out again and it's not charging even after replacing the blown main fuse. I think the alternator is charging because the new bulb I just replaced is lit when it's running, but doesn't seem to be getting from the alternator back to the fuse or battery.
I really don't know what else to do. Replace the alternator and hope for luck?
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Do either of you have a multi-meter ? They're certainly cheap enough ( even by Guzzi standards )
Set to DC volts and probe the harness until the volts disappear or drop noticeably and the second use
would be to check the charging voltage , tedious , yes ; hard , no ! Peter
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Seems at first read that...
If the startus mod has been done, it’s not hard to check if the relay is continuous or not. When it pulls in (if it does), just put a test lead across the opposite pins to make sure it’s continuous.
Putting a lead from the battery to the starter has shown you that there’s nothing wrong with the hardware as such. As mentioned, just work through from the battery to the starter along the main starter supply by cleaning the contacts as you go.
These big block things are notorious for having the earth (ground) go bad, so make sure you thoroughly refurbish that.
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Hi Folks
Yes, I have a meter, been using it.
+12v to the relay from the battery, ignition on and +12v to both smaller diameter wires, pink/black, red/b;lack, ignition on press starter button, nothing coming through orange wire to the solenoid. so relay coil not pulling bridge in, move up to starter button, all seems ok 12v in.
Alan
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I assume pressing starter button earth/grounds the circuit, that's why there is 12v on either side of the relay coil?, so I should be looking at the switch earth/ground?
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remove the plastic "starter cover" and make sure the ground is clean and snug.
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remove the plastic "starter cover" and make sure the ground is clean and snug.
That’s a pretty good bet.
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Do you hear the faint click of the relay under the seat when you press the button? Do you get voltage to that small relay when you press the button? If I remember there are TWO fuses that the starter solenoid power passes through.
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Hi Folks,
I get a faint click at the relay when I tun the ignition on, nothing when I press the starter button. There is power at every terminal on the relay except the one going to the solenoid, that is, 12v or more at three wires when I turn the ignition on. Put a spare battery in, 13.2V, no difference, every earth/ground is shining and has continuity I rig a wire from the solenoid to the positive terminal and away she goes, starts no problem
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Have you made sure that the starter switch is working? You may need to open the housing for the switch and see if power goes through.
I think it was mentioned that the switch may send power to ground to activate the relay. You should look at the wiring diagram to see where power is supposed to be.
I would say a bad relay, I believe you already tried another.
You might want to check the neutral sender. This may not apply to you, but I think it controls a relay that sends the power to the starter relay.
Good luck,
Tom
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Had the switch out, cleaned and sprayed with WD40, tried three re;lays, power to the relay all the time when the ignition is on, no flickering or otherwise dodgy neutral light, tried stand, clutch switch etc, power to all three terminals of the relay when ignition on. I can't find a wiring diagram I can read, everything in the discription/numbers are blurred, I can find the starter relay. I don't understand why there is power to the two small coil pull wires in the relay unless when the starter button is pressed it earths/grounds the loop to activate the relay?
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Maybe your year is in here:
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/sportissimo.html
Tom
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Had the switch out, cleaned and sprayed with WD40, tried three re;lays, power to the relay all the time when the ignition is on, no flickering or otherwise dodgy neutral light, tried stand, clutch switch etc, power to all three terminals of the relay when ignition on. I can't find a wiring diagram I can read, everything in the discription/numbers are blurred, I can find the starter relay. I don't understand why there is power to the two small coil pull wires in the relay unless when the starter button is pressed it earths/grounds the loop to activate the relay?
Have you checked the main fuse?
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Hi, Yes, all fuses are fine, no problem with power to the relay, the problem seems to be getting the relay to pull in, the operating coil inside the relay isn't activating and pulling the bridge over to send 12v to the solenoid. Tried swapping relays, no joy, I'm going to look at the switch again unless someone has other ideas?
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Hi, so can anyone tell me if the starter relay should have 12v going to all three terminals when the ignition is switched on?, the only terminal which isn't live is the one going to the starter solenoid, and when the start button is pressed, nothing changes.
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Hi Folks,
I get a faint click at the relay when I tun the ignition on, nothing when I press the starter button. There is power at every terminal on the relay except the one going to the solenoid, that is, 12v or more at three wires when I turn the ignition on.
The starter RELAY under the seat has GROUND on one of the terminals, plus of course the output terminal will measure low. So you should have 12 voltages at only one terminal, before you press the start button.
Then, when you press the start button, you will see 12 volts on three terminals, and ground on the one side of the coil.
I take all of that back. The ECU controls the coil and can do whatever it wants voltage wise. Obviously when you press the starter button one side of the coil must be LOW, and the other side HIGH.
From the schematic, when the MAIN relay pulls, you will get 12 volts on the coil. Then the ECU will apparently pull the other side of the coil LOW when you press the button.
So yes, 12 volts on the relay except the solenoid side, then you will get a LOW voltage from the ECU when you press the start button. (my schematic implies that is the red/pink wire)
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Seems I need to look at the starter button again, or horror, the ECU. I could try to find the ECU earth/ground and take a jumper wire from that to the battery neg.
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You might try taking a look again at the safety switches and their wires (clutch lever, side stand, neutral ect.). I think Wayne is right that the ECU controls the starter relay. If the switch at the clutch lever for instance is telling the ECU the wrong thing, the ECU will not let the starter crank.
Good luck,
Tom
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Sounds like starter interruptus . Had the same problem with my Norge years ago.
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It is time to do the ECU plug-ins & pin connectors, DeOxit. Start there & do all wiring plugs & connectors in that circuits. This is what's needed. I'd wire a hot button on starter cover if mine, I like to ride.
One reason i ride old stuff. Bigger wires & no gadgets.
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Sounds like starter interruptus . Had the same problem with my Norge years ago.
He said the relay under the seat is not even clicking, so it is not startus interuptus.
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Seems I need to look at the starter button again, or horror, the ECU. I could try to find the ECU earth/ground and take a jumper wire from that to the battery neg.
The ECU is functioning for the most part, since it does start and run when you jumper the solenoid.
Very odd.
Check the dashboard voltage readout. Someone once thought a low voltage locked out the starter. I doubt it, but it never hurts to check.
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Well, no joy. The clutch switch is fine, cleaned and tested at the connector too, side stand switch fine, neutral switch is the only one I can't get to although all the lights including neutral work perfectly, no flickering, in and out of gear the light responds instantly, in fact everything is working as it should and always has. I've been pissing around with this since Sunday morning to no avail, the bike was running perfectly when put away after riding on Friday
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The battery is just off charge, reading 13.8V, when I put it on charge it was reading 12.7V, I tried using a jump battery from my car, that made no difference.I'm thinking I might do the obvious and rig a button from the solenoid to the battery, but would the ecu be ok doing this?
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I know this is frustrating. You have some very good people helping you with this that know the bike more than I do.
Thanks for checking the safety bits. One last thing on them. I'm sure you have tried pulling the clutch lever while hitting the starter, in gear out of gear, side stand up and down. Only takes a moment to check.
As mentioned, maybe a dirty connector or loose wire. I think Steve mentioned to check the ECU plug for corrosion. Even if you don't see any, still give it a cleaning.
Could the starter fix have a failed or loose wire?
Tom
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Hi Tom,
Yes, you are correct, very knowledgeable people are helping., and I certainly appreciate that
Yes, tried all those options.
Tomorrow I'll disconnect the starter switch and see if I can find any continuity through it, I suppose it's always possible it's the switch, although unlikely.
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Check the voltage of Yellow wire on Ignition Relay #3 on diagram, I think it's the only solid Yellow wire on the relays. You should have close to 12V. I believe this is the wire Wayne tied a good 12V from a main fuse or from your batt w/fuse wire for StartusInteruptus.
Hotwire to solenoid doesn't hurt anything unless you push button while running.
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Yes, it already has the StartusInteruptus mod done, battery voltage, 12.9V at least.
Good to know rigging a start button up is possible, I'll find out when I do a continuity test and voltage test to see if the button is faulty.
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One of the pins on that relay plug goes to the ECU. Pink/Brown .That's the plug you need to clean, it's real PIA but it might fix it. Sounds like it's only thing left you haven't done.
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Again, remove the plastic starter and make sure you can't move the ground connector. How do I know? I went through everything you are describing including a new battery before finding the loose ground.
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Is there a tip over sensor fitted to the UK bikes?, and if so, where is it located?.
Earths are checked double and triple checked. I get continuity between the blue wire and the pink/black wire when the start button is pressed with no ignition on, but when I switch the ignition and press the button I get no voltage through the blue wire. my switch has a redundant red wire, and the colours don't tally up with the wiring diagram.
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So, I;m getting a voltage drop on the yellow/red wire which goes to the ECU from the switch, 11.4V then press the button and it reduces to 1.4V, so the ecu is dropping the voltage to energise the coil in the relay, but deciding not to, which points yet again to Neutral/sidestand/clutch switch, checked the first two with the meter at the connectors, all ok, so time to take the airbox off andcheck the nuetral switch I suppose
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Check any connectors that the wire passes through. Not the first time someone has had a corrosion issue in a connector. Check the big ones in front if the wire goes through it, they are kinda exposed to weather.
Tom
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Hi Folks,
Well, the ECU plugs were sparkling but I cleaned them anyway, no luck. The only anomaly, if it is that, is the pink/black wire from the starter button to the connector has 11.8V, when you press the button it drops to 0.4V, according to the wiring diagram I'm pretty sure that wire goes to the ECU.
The other wires have 12.8V.
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Supposedly, pin 1 of the ECU grey connector feeds the starter relay. Can you measure that too when you press the button?
(maybe a red/pink wire on my schematic)
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Yes, 12.4 to 12.8V on all the relay wires except the one going to the solenoid, regardless of what the button is doing. The only voltage drop I see in the whole starter wiring is on the yellow/black wire from the starter button(on the other side of the plug it changes to yellow/red) which when pressed drops from 11.8V to almost zero, around 0.4V
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That yellow/red wire goes to pin 28 on the ECU on the blue plug according to the diagram I'm looking at, and yet it drops to almost zero when the button is pressed?
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And with the ignition off, one side of the meter on battery ground, other side on the yellow/red wire, I get continuity, not a dead short but a resistance, when the start button is pressed.
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So if I were to bridge from the yellow red wire which shows a voltage drop when the starter button is pressed, to the low side of the relay pull in coil, effectively bypassing the ecu, would my starter button then work?, or might it cause problems with the ecu?. I would disconnect the low voltage wire to the relay and replace it with the bridging wire from the switch
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So if I were to bridge from the yellow red wire which shows a voltage drop when the starter button is pressed, to the low side of the relay pull in coil, effectively bypassing the ecu, would my starter button then work?, or might it cause problems with the ecu?. I would disconnect the low voltage wire to the relay and replace it with the bridging wire from the switch
The yellow/red should be going to ground when you press the button. Is the switch contact simply a little dirty?
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Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the reply.
The switch when measured at the plug drops voltage to almost zero when the button is pressed, the ECU is seeing that, but not telling the relay. I bridged the pink/black wire from the switch plug to the relay pink/black, it now turns over on the button, effectively removing the eco from the circuit. The only problem I have is the redundant pink /black wire I cut that goes into the relay is keeping the warning triangle on the dash. I was wondering if I could attach that through a fuse to any 12v source, fooling the ecU and putting the light out?
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I do however think the ECU is not telling the relay a voltage drop is likely caused by a sensor, clutch/stand/neutral/tilt switch, but every one of those is working perfectly, they all check out both by voltage and continuity.
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So, that all worked, bike is starting and no warning lights.
Unfortunately I didn't find the problem though. Interestingly, when I measured the voltage on the pink/black wire from the ECU to the relay after cutting it, it was 3V, so the other side of the coil was getting12v and I was seeing that when measuring so not sure how the system works, 12v to one side and 3v to the other, it's always going to be 12v, if the voltage dropped the whole pull in coil would see that drop?It must be something to do with the starter turning automatically until the engine fires, which of course it's not doing now.
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What's bothering me now, overthinking it, is most ECU's work on 5V or so, I have 12V going to that pin, although through a 3 amp fuse.
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Bison, any updates on your starting problem?
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Hi,
No progress as such, another fault has appeared, ( flat spot)I doubt it is linked, but you never know. I'll post if I make progress.
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Problem solved, please see my post "flat spot"
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It was the ECU?
Can you elaborate on that?
Are you now using a different ECU?
I read through both your threads getting ready for input.
I assume the ECU was not telling the Start relay to engage, it can do that if the bike is dropped and the tipover switch is activated.
It's very important that the ECU is well grounded as the outputs rely on ground to pull the load down, they only switch about 100 mA each but without ground they cannot turn the relays On.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
Looking at the Start Relay (3) pin 1 will b4 +12 Volts
Pin 2 will also be +12 Volts until the ECU pulls it to chassis when Output 1 turns ON.
Pull the relay out and make sure pin 3 of the socket is alive with the key Off or On
I refer to the yellow wire feeding pin 3 as "The weak yellow feed", it needs a direct feed from the battery to work right, The starter solenoid will draw 60 Amps for a split second because it has two coils in parallel until the main contact closes at full travel. None of the Guzzi schematics show the second high current coil that all Guzzis have.
The schematic shows the ECU is grounded to the chassis, not to a pin, it can't hurt to add an additional ground wire.
Corrected Neutral Switch
(https://i.ibb.co/DznGT38/EPSON007.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DznGT38)
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Check the voltage of Yellow wire on Ignition Relay #3 on diagram, I think it's the only solid Yellow wire on the relays. You should have close to 12V. I believe this is the wire Wayne tied a good 12V from a main fuse or from your batt w/fuse wire for StartusInteruptus.
Hotwire to solenoid doesn't hurt anything unless you push button while running.
I have named this "the weak yellow wire", the solenoid would like 60 Amps to stroke but because of inbuilt resistance its lucky to get 30, as a consequence it's only pulling at half strength or less. When you take a wire direct from the battery and touch it on the spade connector you will see how its been designed to work.
If you look at the sketch I posted I show one coil pulling 10 Amps, that coil only really has enough strength to hold the solenoid in place once it's cranking, the real hero is the other coil I call the Grunt Coil, that will draw 60 Amps if you beef up the wiring I recommend a 16 gauge all the way from the battery to the solenoid with a really tight spade connector.
Coils are rated in Amp Turns, they both have ~300 turns
The holding coil is 10 x 300 = 3,000 Amp Turns <<<< This is the coil Guzzi always show >>>>
The grunt coil is 60 x 300 = 18,000 Amp Turns (6 x stronger) <<<< This coil doesn't exist on any Guzzi drawing >>>>
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Some owners prefer to leave all the OEM wiring as stock and instead add a dedicated relay with the coil driven by the factory wiring and the new contacts switching a heavy wire from battery to solenoid.
(https://i.ibb.co/b3N1jTX/EPSON006.jpg) (https://ibb.co/b3N1jTX)
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Again, remove the plastic starter and make sure you can't move the ground connector. How do I know? I went through everything you are describing including a new battery before finding the loose ground.
This is very important, pull the wire off and scrub up the connection with some Vaseline to prevent it corroding, there's several hundred Amps trying to get thru, a tiny fraction of an Ohm is too much.
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Hi Roy,
Thanks for your input.
Yes, the status interrupts was done a long time ago, 12v to the relay at all times, and 12v to both the pull in coil wires too, relay changed and then renewed, no joy, and there was continuity from pin 1 on the ECU to the relay. I replaced the ECU, after cleaning many times, including the earth, and I rigged an auxiliary earth from the body of the eco to the battery neg, when hot wired from the switch bypassing the eco it worked fine
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I came across a training booklet for the 8 Valve Griso (Read 8 Valve Norge)
(https://i.ibb.co/nRc7xM0/EPSON008.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nRc7xM0)
So the Fall Sensor will actually stop an engine, I know from experience its also interlocked with the start relay.
(https://i.ibb.co/mGG48qW/EPSON009.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mGG48qW)
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Hi Roy,
Thanks for your input.
Yes, the status interrupts was done a long time ago, 12v to the relay at all times, and 12v to both the pull in coil wires too, relay changed and then renewed, no joy, and there was continuity from pin 1 on the ECU to the relay. I replaced the ECU, after cleaning many times, including the earth, and I rigged an auxiliary earth from the body of the eco to the battery neg, when hot wired from the switch bypassing the eco it worked fine
Bison did you find a replacement ECU or was it just a temporary borrow as there is one going in Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/groups/motoguzzimotorcycle/permalink/607142340335623/?sale_post_id=607142340335623&sfnsn=scwspmo&ref=share
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Hi Tris,
Thanks for the heads up, I got to keep the one from my pal though.
Alan.
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Folks,
Fixed.
Short story. I fried the ecu by jury rigging the start button. Convinced the fault was the tilt switch, unplugged and it ran no probs. Now replaced. Fitted Ducati 5AM ecu, start button worked, TPS wandered all the time Downloaded the Guzzi EEPROM, wrote it over the Ducati one, TPS now steady, start button working, have done 250 miles, still ok. Hope this helps someone who is unfortunate enough to have a similar problem.
Thanks for all the help
Alan.
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Congrats! :thumb:
Tom