Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 03:44:09 PM

Title: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 03:44:09 PM
my 13 V7 is sending 15.45 volts to the battery and that ain't good.
I understand that all 13-15 V7 have bad voltage regulators and will fry the battery, cam sensor and even the ECU
the warranty expired last moth so the fix is out of my pocket
has anyone fit a mosfet VR to a V7?
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: canuguzzi on February 21, 2016, 03:53:45 PM
If ALL V7s have this problem, why hasn't anyone filed a complaint?

Then, instead of everyone paying for what is claimed to be a problem with all V7s, MG would simply replace them.

All it took was a very few persistent individuals and MG agreed to pay for labor and parts in the USA to fix the flat tappets.

Owning a Moto Guzzi doesn't mean paying for everything out of pocket if all the bikes have the same fault.

Suggest you file a warranty claim through the dealer, claim the problem is known to exist and has existing during the warranty period.

Overcharging the battery, frying the ECU and all that?

If everyone who had the V7 with the problem did it, it wouldn't be a problem, there would be a fix.

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/Complaint.cfm
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: pyoungbl on February 21, 2016, 04:00:34 PM
Yep, fitted a mosfet R/R last year after seeing 15+ volts in my electrical system.  This was not a warranty claim since the dealer would simply replace with another R/R that would probably do exactly the same thing.  The mosfet R/R was not exactly a plug and play but darn close.  The mounting required making an adapter plate.
(https://peteryoungblood.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/13-V7-Special/i-s6hrTsR/0/M/DSCF0989-M.jpg)
The good news is that the new plate will also be a super heat sink.

Peter Y.
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: canuguzzi on February 21, 2016, 04:04:58 PM
Actually, MG could not replace the regulator with another faulty one, it is a warranty claim.

The logic that because a part is bad that all bad parts can be replace with all bad parts doesn't seem to wash. The cost is about $100 for a replacement (varies on what you buy).

If individuals just keep quiet about it and pay out of their own pockets, then MG keeps selling bikes with bad regulators and guess who is partly responsible for that?

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/Complaint.cfm
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: pyoungbl on February 21, 2016, 04:05:59 PM
If ALL V7s have this problem, why hasn't anyone filed a complaint?

All it took was a very few persistent individuals and MG agreed to pay for labor and parts in the USA to fix the flat tappets.

Not so! Guzzi won't even return my email about my roller repair.  They denied the dealer's claim.  The DLC is worn off and my cam lobes are burned.  The only thing missing is a rod through the block.  Be careful when you make such a generalization.
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: canuguzzi on February 21, 2016, 04:09:24 PM
Not so! Guzzi won't even return my email about my roller repair.  They denied the dealer's claim.  The DLC is worn off and my cam lobes are burned.  The only thing missing is a rod through the block.  Be careful when you make such a generalization.

No generalizations. MG will pay for the flat tappet repair.

Why did they deny your claim? There had to be a reason, they always state it. Ask the dealer why it was denied.

If adequate service records don't exist, that isn't on MG, that would be on the owner.

If others are getting them fixed and you are not, then why not? Doubtful they are just denying your claim for no reason.
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 04:14:33 PM
active discussion on the "other" site
it seems to be a widespread problem with 13-15 voltage regulators
the one on my bike puts out a constant 15.45 regardless of RPM, so its working; kind of
I hope it hasn't damaged the cam sensor yet
I'll talk to my dealer but I don't have high hopes
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 04:17:25 PM
I see that the standard MG VR has 6 wires and it looks like the mosfet unit has  only 5
how does that work?
the VR on my Triumph triple has 7 leads???
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: canuguzzi on February 21, 2016, 04:18:16 PM
If MG fixes the problem, how does that not benefit the OP?

Wouldn't a fix benefit every other owner of a V7 that has the same problem?

Not asking for a fix guarantees he pays for it. If his battery is toasted, he pays for that too. Now we're up to a couple hundred bucks. If the ECU goes, quite a bit more.

I get it, the quick fix and it goes away, for one owner. Everyone else? Who cares?
Title: V7 voltage regulator
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 04:25:25 PM
there seems to be a wide spread problem with the voltage regulators on 13-15 V7s.
what's the charging voltage, at the battery, on your V7?
if this is really a widespread  problem maybe we should ask the manufacturer to fix it: Triumph did
Title: Re: V7 voltage regulator
Post by: canuguzzi on February 21, 2016, 04:33:48 PM
PM sent on how to get your's fixed.
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: Guzzidad on February 21, 2016, 04:43:44 PM
   I have the same problem with my 01 EV. I don't think the regulators are bad. I just think there is faulty electrical engineering. The original owner of my bike must have had some experience with this. He had a set of spot lights installed with the lighting power coming through an added relay. When those lights are on regulation is correct. On my bike, can't say if the V7s are this way, the regulator detects battery condition (voltage ) through the headlight circuit. When the headlight is on there is a 2 volt drop and the regulator is just trying to do its job and make up the difference. You could verify if your bike is acting like mine by removing the headlight bulb and then start the bike and check voltage.
Title: Re: V7 voltage regulator
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 05:18:48 PM
I didn't check mine until I heard about the "problem"
ignorance is not bliss especially if it leaves you stranded at the side of the road
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 05:20:34 PM
now that's a novel solution and I'm going to try it
Title: Re: V7 voltage regulator
Post by: Kev m on February 21, 2016, 05:41:30 PM
Mines in its winter sleep after 3 years and 10k miles.

But I'll check come spring.

And that's getting close.
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 05:50:17 PM
does the 13 V7 have a single phase alternator? the wiring diagram shows only 2 wires from the alternator but my bike has 3 yellow wires into the VR and the yellow wires are input??
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: fotoguzzi on February 21, 2016, 05:57:22 PM
does that regulator get ground through a plate with captured nuts ? like the big blocks, if so that is not the best arrangement for continuous ground connection and maybe all you need is a dedicated ground wire from the regulator to the block?
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 06:02:50 PM
I looked again; only2 yellow input wires. Must be single phase
According to the wire diagram there are2 green ground wires and2 red power wires= 6wires total
Title: Re: V7 voltage regulator
Post by: jas67 on February 21, 2016, 06:25:01 PM
Both of mine are in their winter sleep as well.   I will also check come spring, which, as Kev said, is coming soon  :thumb:
Title: Re: V7 voltage regulator
Post by: kingoffleece on February 21, 2016, 06:44:28 PM
Yep.  I'll check mine then, too.  WAY too much salt on the roads right now-although it was tempting at 52 degrees last Sat.
Title: Re: V7 voltage regulator
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 07:19:02 PM
I checked mine in the garage
Just installed the battery and started the bike
Put a voltmeter on the battery terminals and problem confirmed
I'm certain the dealer will need to confirm and expect me to ride to the shop in 40 degree weather
Not much to gain if the VR is replaced with another model year 13-15 VR as I understand they are all bad
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: sib on February 21, 2016, 07:19:34 PM
Guess I'm in the lucky majority.  My '13 Stone went 12K miles, 2 years with no overvoltage problems, and my '16 Stone has nearly 7K miles so far with no such problems either.
Title: Re: V7 voltage regulator
Post by: Kev m on February 21, 2016, 07:21:32 PM
Who is claiming they are "all" bad?

If they are "all" bad, how did I get 10k miles and 3 years out of it and the battery so far?

Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: acogoff on February 21, 2016, 07:26:29 PM
     Make sure all grounds are making good contact and connections between battery and regulator. The regulator may not be sensing the battery voltage properly, thus the high voltage. Other wise the regulator is indeed bad.
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: Guzzidad on February 21, 2016, 07:50:36 PM
   I will expand on my experience. First, Fotoguzzi, I've added extra ground to the VR and it didn't help. Next, drlapo, if you have 3 yellow wires from the alternator it is most likely 3 phase. No matter, the VR knows what to do with that. What I do know for sure is if I unplug the headlight bulb charging drops to 13.8 volts. I think that the wire gauge is too small to handle the load of the headlight after going through a relay, the ignition switch, and the high/low dip switch as well as a couple plug connectors. Now, I'm not a factory trained motorcycle mechanic, but I have managed to keep my bikes out of the crazy expensive bike shops since about 1982. Credit that to Guzzi since they are relatively simple. I'm just a retired bum sitting on the beach in Florida who rides about 30,000 miles a year.
                           Steve
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 07:55:17 PM
Mosfet regulator prices range from $50 to $150!
Some are obviously made in China.  I don't know if that's a bad thing
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: Kent in Upstate NY on February 21, 2016, 08:25:51 PM
MPH dropped Guzzi because the oil market in Houston tanked. It is hard to sell "toys" when nobody has a job.
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: Cam3512 on February 21, 2016, 08:35:12 PM
Stop freeking the hell out, no need to panick here.  Mine has been fine on my '14 Special.   As far as the 8V tappet recall, just because ONE customer has had EVERYTHING covered doesn't mean that's across the board.  If you assume that, you don't know Guzzi.
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: Guzzidad on February 21, 2016, 08:38:04 PM
   baileylee, the R/Rs are working as intended according to the demands of the machine. They are NOT the problem. Obviously MG does not make the R/Rs or the fuel injection or anything else electrical. Just like any other motorcycle manufacturer. Those items just need to be integrated into the bike to work in harmony with everything else.
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: drlapo on February 21, 2016, 09:43:09 PM
Perhaps the problem is more widespread than currently realized
I didn't check the output of the electrical system on myV7 until I was informed of the problem
I checked and found that my bike has the problem
Maybe now that we are discussing it more people will test their bikes and maybe more examples will arise
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: HardAspie on February 21, 2016, 09:54:58 PM
So, in essence and in theory, the VR could go FUBAR and kill the ECU thus stopping the EFI, leaving you SOL in BFE wondering WTF. OMG!
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: rocker59 on February 21, 2016, 10:09:42 PM

I understand that all 13-15 V7 have bad voltage regulators and will fry the battery, cam sensor and even the ECU
 

To what source to you owe this understanding?

(http://wildguzzi.com/forum/Smileys/default/popcorn.gif)
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: rocker59 on February 21, 2016, 10:55:22 PM
pretty simple internet math.  you assume only a small percentage of complainants actually complain.  it would seem highly unlikely that every owner of a guzzi v7 belongs to the wild goose website and posts if they are having issues.

Yeah.  Internet math:  some = all.

LOL!
Title: Re: V7 voltage regulator
Post by: rocker59 on February 21, 2016, 10:58:18 PM
Who is claiming they are "all" bad?

If they are "all" bad, how did I get 10k miles and 3 years out of it and the battery so far?

drlapo

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=81838.0

(now merged)
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: rocker59 on February 21, 2016, 11:30:30 PM
lmfao.  and every guzzi owner is on this forum.  it cuts both ways.

No one here has claimed "every guzzi owner is on this forum".  Nor do we believe it.  That would be silly.

drlapo hisself used the "ALL" word.  All I did was ask him for more detail on that claim.

Some of us here have not experienced this phenomenon.  That means "ALL" is inaccurate at best.

Though I am interested to follow the discussion and learn more about the bikes that do experience the over charge.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rocker59 on February 22, 2016, 12:00:42 AM
what year V7 do you own?

2014 V7 Special.  Bought new as a leftover August 2015. 

(https://rocker59.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/2015-August-8-V7-Special/i-vFM6xF5/0/M/V7%20at%20Talihina-M.jpg)
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: canuguzzi on February 22, 2016, 12:06:03 AM
No one here has claimed "every guzzi owner is on this forum".  Nor do we believe it.  That would be silly.

drlapo hisself used the "ALL" word.  All I did was ask him for more detail on that claim.

Some of us here have not experienced this phenomenon.  That means "ALL" is inaccurate at best.

Though I am interested to follow the discussion and learn more about the bikes that do experience the over charge.

Same thing with startus interruptus. Not everyone experiences the problem but everyone is advised to install the fix. The common statements are something like "its not if its when" or similar. The general meaning is all will have the problem, just a matter of time.

Maybe that is the premise for the "ALL" point, who knows?
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: rocker59 on February 22, 2016, 12:08:08 AM

Maybe that is the premise for the "ALL" point, who knows?

Maybe.  That's why I was asking.  Didn't intend to be argumentative.  It's news to me, and was interested to know his source for the "all" statement.
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: canuguzzi on February 22, 2016, 12:18:50 AM
Stop freeking the hell out, no need to panick here.  Mine has been fine on my '14 Special.   As far as the 8V tappet recall, just because ONE customer has had EVERYTHING covered doesn't mean that's across the board.  If you assume that, you don't know Guzzi.

No one is freaking out.

More than one customer got theirs fixed by MG but then, do not, want not. Those that got their bikes fixed figured out that "can't" rarely gets results. Two types, those that do and others that watch and complain someone else did.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: guzzitime on February 22, 2016, 01:32:44 AM
Don't have a V7. Strictly  a V11 man.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 22, 2016, 02:04:48 AM
Just a simple question to the owners of the "good" regulators: what is your charging voltage?
I'm trying to find out if this is a widespread problem
Title: Re: V7 over voltage WARNING
Post by: sib on February 22, 2016, 06:35:37 AM
pretty simple internet math.  you assume only a small percentage of complainants actually complain.  it would seem highly unlikely that every owner of a guzzi v7 belongs to the wild goose website and posts if they are having issues.
I would do the math just the opposite way.  Most folks who DON'T have the problem will be more likely to remain silent, while those who do have the problem will be more likely to complain.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: swordds on February 22, 2016, 07:05:46 AM
Just wondering what has happened to the poor soul who started this argument (I mean thread) by having heated gloves that wouldn't work?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: slowmover on February 22, 2016, 07:28:38 AM
Mine's wrapped up again until the weather's better.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Vagrant on February 22, 2016, 08:38:33 AM
I sure hope people don't vote until they actually put a meter on the bike and run it. just because you haven't had a problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
as for the winter storage excuse 90% of those bikes could be started for the ten seconds required for the test. then take a pic of the reading at 3000 and get the dealer involved. maybe this won't turn into a seven year fix like the cams on 8 valves if every one with a problem jumps on it now.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 22, 2016, 09:19:50 AM
as for the winter storage excuse 90% of those bikes could be started for the ten seconds required for the test. then take a pic of the reading at 3000 and get the dealer involved.

Sure it could. But for gawd's sake, if I ran out and dug into one of my vehicles every time someone on the internet said the sky was falling I'd never get anything else done.

It DOES look like there's a potential for a pattern problem here.

But like I've said, I've run the damn thing for 3 years and 10k miles without anything breaking so I'll check in a few weeks when I'm ready to run it for more than 30 seconds.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 22, 2016, 09:39:54 AM
FYI my 13 V7 Special exhibited no symptoms of over voltage.
I checked the charging voltage on the advice of a Moto Guzzi enthusiast who has witnessed a number of over voltage situations in 13-15 V7s
The purpose of my post was to get the ball rolling not to condemn ALL VR s
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 22, 2016, 09:52:45 AM
This is not a new problem
Pyoungbl had the same problem in October 2014 and started a thread on this site
He replaced the VR with a mosfet unit
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: swordds on February 22, 2016, 09:58:37 AM
I just checked my 2016 V7II and measured 14.25 at idle and 14.31 at 4000 rpm so potentially replacing the voltage regulator with a V7II unit would solve the problem (if it will fit). For information, on my bike I could reach the positive better terminal and a good ground by lifting the seat without removing the battery cover.

As an aside: You know you are really old when every time you need a voltmeter you need to buy a new one because you can't find any of the several you believe you already own. Also when you start listing your children as emergency contacts and they stop listing you.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 22, 2016, 10:20:29 AM
I heard that the V7II VR is a good replacement for the 13-15 units and at $145 the cost the same as a mosfet unit
I'm going to ask my dealer for a swap under my recently expired warranty or a break on the price
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on February 22, 2016, 10:28:23 AM
Sure it could. But for gawd's sake, if I ran out and dug into one of my vehicles every time someone on the internet said the sky was falling I'd never get anything else done.

 :1:

Plus, running the engine for a few minutes or less and then shutting it off is not good for the engine or the exhaust, as it promotes condensation inside the engine and exhaust.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: sib on February 22, 2016, 05:26:13 PM
I heard that the V7II VR is a good replacement for the 13-15 units and at $145 the cost the same as a mosfet unit
I'm going to ask my dealer for a swap under my recently expired warranty or a break on the price
I'd be surprised if the V7II VR works with the '13-'14 (USA) models.  Those have a 350W dry alternator whereas the '15 V7 and '16 V7II models have a 270W wet alternator.  I believe the cabling is also different.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 22, 2016, 05:48:13 PM
Thanks for the info on the 2016 VR
It looks like a mosfet unit is the way to go
Jack at roadster cycle tells me that the mosfet unit he sells will work fine on our single phase systems Easy install but you do need to cut and splice the leads from the old VR
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pyoungbl on February 22, 2016, 06:13:05 PM
Just checked...the parts numbers are different.  '13 is 883878; '16 is 2D000043.  Now, does that mean that they are actually different parts?  I don't know.  The '13 is a typical Guzzi part number.  I'm not sure where the '16 part number falls.  Since Piaggio group has multiple brands this is likely to be a part number that is common to a bunch of bikes.  At any rate, putting in a warranty claim is probably going to get you another part that is exactly like the one you had problems with.  Do you feel lucky?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on February 22, 2016, 06:19:22 PM
Quote from: kev_m
But like I've said, I've run the damn thing for 3 years and 10k miles without anything breaking so I'll check in a few weeks when I'm ready to run it for more than 30 seconds.
:1: Same empirical experience with no battery problems for 3+ years. My V7 is safely asleep in the garage and I'm not waking it up right away; but in a few weeks, I'll be running a test.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 22, 2016, 08:41:42 PM
From information gathered from the"other" Guzzi site while few people have experienced battery "problems"  most are finding poor performing VRs when the charging voltage is measured
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 22, 2016, 09:13:59 PM
From information gathered from the"other" Guzzi site while few people have experienced battery "problems"  most are finding poor performing VRs when the charging voltage is measured

So here's the thing.

Please define "poor performing"?

Does that mean charging on the higher side of acceptable or on the low side of not acceptable?

And how does one judge which it is?

In the 90's it was rare for a motorcycle battery to last more than a season or two.

If I test my V7 and find it's charging at say mid-to-high 14's for voltage, but it's not damaged any other electrical component and it's still got the original battery after 3.5 years, then IS SOMETHING BROKEN?

I'm curious to know the voltage now... We've got some rain coming this week. If the roads look good later in the week I might be tempted to find out.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: oldbike54 on February 22, 2016, 09:22:55 PM
 Uh Kev ol buddy , we realize you are a pup and don't remember the 1990's very well , but they weren't exactly the stone age  :grin: I usually got 6 years out of a decent battery , not 1 or 2 .

 Dusty
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 22, 2016, 09:48:26 PM
Uh Kev ol buddy , we realize you are a pup and don't remember the 1990's very well , but they weren't exactly the stone age  :grin: I usually got 6 years out of a decent battery , not 1 or 2 .

 Dusty


That might vary somewhat with environment (desert or frozen tundra being worse than more moderate zones), usage, and uh... brand of cycle. (Solidmount Harleys were HELL on their batteries).

 
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 22, 2016, 10:24:49 PM
Gee Kev; who pissed in your corn flakes?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on February 23, 2016, 12:10:22 AM
I've compared the wiring diagrams for the 13-15 bikes with my 2016.  They're identical in regard to the R/R.

By the way, I checked my voltage when I got home from work today.  At idle, 13.7v (great).  At 3K RPM, 14.7v (not so great).   I would not replace an earlier R/R with this one.

If its holding 14.7 from 2500 rpm up - that sounds reasonable.
If you then said you had 15.7 at 5000 that would be a problem.
I think you are ok.
Its 15v up that becomes a problem.

When I checked mine found it to be regulating at 15.v-15.1v I've done 4k miles since then. My battery does not heat and my tender shows it to be healthy. Its an AGM

Im not saying it is right but on a single phase system I think the regulated voltage should appear higher. 13.5 might be too low. 14.6 might be just right.
The capacitance of the battery increases the dc voltage as shown on a meter.
13.5 or 14.7 which you state is  the peek of the rectified AC.   With the headlight on and a single phase alternator 13.5v might not maintain the battery where it would on a 3 phase system. The voltage is maintained by battery drain. The regulator truncates the voltage and converts excess to heat it cant make 9v into 14v, it can make 20v into 14v. A single phase alternator will always produce a pulsed output and that pulsed output will continue through to the regulator output. With 3 phases a near constant regulator output is possible. The battery may prefer a pulsed charge. The capacitance of the battery will ensure other components in the system get a near constant voltage supply.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on February 23, 2016, 06:32:44 AM

That might vary somewhat with environment (desert or frozen tundra being worse than more moderate zones), usage, and uh... brand of cycle. (Solidmount Harleys were HELL on their batteries).

So, the problem wasn't voltage over charging, but, the batteries were being shaken to death.    :evil:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on February 23, 2016, 06:37:46 AM
The ideal charging system voltage should be between 13.8 and 14.5 volts at normal cruise RPM.    It is OK for the voltage to dip below 13.8 volts at idle, as charging will catch up when back under way.

12 Volt lead acid batteries need at least 13.8 Volts to start charging.
14.5 Volts is the safe upper limit.

Above 14.5 Volts, the batteries will start to off gas acidic vapors.   Above 14.7 Volts they can start to boil and dry out.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: swordds on February 23, 2016, 07:00:43 AM
The other site is the Guzzi Tech Forum where they have an excellent description of the reasons for concern with over voltage charging from a person who sounds knowledgeable and reasonable and experienced. Anyway, it is easy to check when you have the chance and it appears to be at least a fairly common concern, I won't say a problem because perhaps some V7s are rugged enough to handle 15+ volts charging output without issues, though perhaps some accessories like electric gloves won't accept the higher voltage.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: sib on February 23, 2016, 08:06:39 AM
The other site is the Guzzi Tech Forum where they have an excellent description of the reasons for concern with over voltage charging from a person who sounds knowledgeable and reasonable and experienced. Anyway, it is easy to check when you have the chance and it appears to be at least a fairly common concern, I won't say a problem because perhaps some V7s are rugged enough to handle 15+ volts charging output without issues, though perhaps some accessories like electric gloves won't accept the higher voltage.
It's a very useful and informative site.  But, bear in mind that the site is part of a commercial enterprise and the owner makes money by selling replacement parts and accessories.  So, his viewpoint can be biased.  No offense intended.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 23, 2016, 08:10:05 AM
Gee Kev; who pissed in your corn flakes?

No pissing, I'm just asking that the "problem" be better defined.

Like the Startus Interruptus - IS it a problem, how and why?


So, the problem wasn't voltage over charging, but, the batteries were being shaken to death.    :evil:

PROBABLY


The ideal charging system voltage should be between 13.8 and 14.5 volts at normal cruise RPM.    It is OK for the voltage to dip below 13.8 volts at idle, as charging will catch up when back under way.

12 Volt lead acid batteries need at least 13.8 Volts to start charging.
14.5 Volts is the safe upper limit.

Above 14.5 Volts, the batteries will start to off gas acidic vapors.   Above 14.7 Volts they can start to boil and dry out.

This sounds reasonable.

Though it varies between lead acid and AGM right? The AGM will take it (though might be damaged as well)?

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: tonUPRacer on February 23, 2016, 08:50:06 AM
I will check mine in the spring, this is eeirly similar to the fuel filter "problem", the you need a sump spacer problem, etc. At least this one is easy to check.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: swordds on February 23, 2016, 09:11:26 AM
It's a very useful and informative site.  But, bear in mind that the site is part of a commercial enterprise and the owner makes money by selling replacement parts and accessories.  So, his viewpoint can be biased.  No offense intended.

Excellent point and something I should have noted. Perhaps 15+ volts is no problem for most V7s and the "concern" would go unnoticed by most owners except for the OP with the curious problem of the heated gloves that weren't working.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 23, 2016, 09:15:05 AM
Ok, you guys enticed me to log into Guzzitech (man I hadn't been there in WELL over a year. I had an unanswered PM from 2014, I felt bad).

Here's what I posted:

OK, I was drawn over here from WG by Drlapo to check out this thread.

For the record my 2013 is at 10k miles and more than 3 years with no SYMPTOMS of problems, but I'll try to take some time to test it later this week if the weather cooperates (it's been asleep since Nov/Dec).

Meanwhile, I've got a question of threshold, specifically at what point do we say the regulators are not operating correctly.

Quote from: GuzziMoto, post: 114765, member: 363
I don't have a dog in this fight, but 14.7 volts is typical charging voltage for modern batteries.

15 volts is not really that much above standard, Once you start getting much above 15 volts I could see it being a problem. Clearly 16 volts and above is flat out wrong. The one small block I own does not have that issue, it is an older small block and struggles to meet acceptable charge voltage. I am happy when it hits mid 14's.



I tend to agree with GuzziMoto, though I'm open to someone schooling me otherwise is the threshold should be lower.

Interestingly enough I just checked the Guzzi manual for the Stone/Special/Racer - and it specifies:

Quote

Voltage on battery poles with engine speed always between 3000 - 5000 RPM

· Start the engine, after about one minute of operating bring the speed to 3000-5000 RPM,

then measure with a tester the voltage at the battery poles that must always be between

13V and 15V.


Now, I'm not one to BLINDLY accept the OEM repair literature, especially from Guzzi. But we should put some weight on it.

Todd, the ones you've seen where there was damage, was the charging OVER 15 volts? Or was it just over that 14.4 threshold? I'm guessing the former right?


I'll be curious how this plays out. But perhaps mid-to-high 14's aren't a cause for concern.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on February 23, 2016, 04:15:05 PM
With respect to the poll "Just right" ? It's just not that simple.

(http://cdn.freshdesk.com/data/helpdesk/attachments/production/5966712/original/AGMcharge.jpg?1369332706)
Above info for AgM
AGM Gel and vented batteries all have different optimal charging voltages.

Testing again I get 14.9v at all revs.
but I don't believe the output from the regulator is smooth, the damping in my volt meter may cause the reading to be a little high.
There are additional factors to consider.

I dont think anyone should get bothered about 15v but its a good idea to check your system while its healthy. A failing battery or R/R may cause a change in the regulated output or more voltage change with revs before the eventual failure.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on February 24, 2016, 05:35:20 AM
If you want to measure ripple, switch the voltmeter to AC Volts range and measure across the terminals.  It's probably a very small voltage because the battery acts as a ballast, absorbing any ripple.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 24, 2016, 11:39:45 AM
Piki, that's interesting (from where does it come).

It agrees with SOME of the data I've found, but is at odds to what some others are saying. Here's another cross post from Guzzitech:

Do we know who makes the battery for the V7, and have we confirmed that it IS an AGM?

EDIT - NOTE (Todd has since confirmed the V7 Battery is a Yuasa AGM)

I'm under the impression that AGM batteries are a little more sturdy than traditional lead acids with regards to charge rate.

The first reference I find is in the FAQ page for Optima:

http://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/support/faqs

See CHARGING -

Quote
Voltage measurements of the battery when the engine is running are the output of your alternator. This measurement should be about 13.3-15.0 volts, which may differ due to temperature. At average operating temperatures of 50° to 80°F, your alternator output voltage should be about 14 volts to 14.8 volts.

Also:

Quote
For regular charging we recommend a maximum of 10-amps, 13.8-15.0 volts. For float charging, we recommend 1 amp maximum, 13.2-13.8 volts.

In contrast this website seems to favor the 14.4V limit for which you are aiming:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/absorbent_glass_mat_agm

This website talks about battery charge rates, and shows rates up to 14.9 for fast charging AGMs.

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-GEL-and-AGM-Batteries-EN.pdf

Here's a question. Does the circuitry in this regulator not adjust to system load and battery charge need? I.E. if the battery is discharged it's going to regulate the charge rate on the higher side until the battery is properly charged AND/OR load drops meaning it can shunt more power to ground and lower the charge rate more toward 13 volts.

I.E. if people are starting their bikes (maybe some that haven't been ridden in weeks or longer over winter) and immediately putting a DVOM across the battery terminals SHOULDN'T they be seeing a high charge rate? Potentially up to 15 volts (not over)? If those same people went for a 30 minute ride and THEN connected the DVOM might they see something closer to 13?

EDIT - TODD has since replied that the charging system on the V7 does not reduce voltage once the battery is charged.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 24, 2016, 11:53:19 AM
More info:

Reading the Guzzitech thread it certainly it sounds like a lot of units are testing out of the range that even MG seems to claim is acceptable (meaning over 15 volts).

I do think it's probably prudent for all here to at least throw a voltmeter across your battery with the bike running (3-5k rpm) and check.

I absolutely agree anyone seeing > 15 Volts should replace the VR. For sure that's what I'll do if mine tests that way.

But out of curiosity because I'm still chasing the reasoning behind the Guzzi specs and what we should consider "normal".

I asked PokeyJ this on Guzzitech, but I'll repeat it here:

Quote from: pokeyjoe, post: 114787, member: 7702
I went to Yuasa's website and they specifically listed a range of 13v - 14.5v for charging.  Some of these batteries are obviously taking a lot of abuse and are still working.  Or ticking.  Who knows what will happen or when.

Where'd you find that?

In their 2014 TechManual PDF the specifically say:

Quote
When considering upgrading to an AGM battery that was not original equipment on a vehicle, check to make sure the charging system has a regulated output between 14.0 and 14.8 volts.

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/literature.php

specifically here:

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/pdfs/TechManual_2014.pdf

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on February 24, 2016, 01:20:48 PM
Kev M

Here's a link, to add more confusion even AGM battery manufacturers cant agree what's the right voltage to charge at.
The chart I posted seems to suggest a cold battery can be given a high voltage and as it/if if heats the voltage must be lower - which makes perfect sence except a charging circuit is unlikely to manage to guess the battery temperature.

http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/4345-agm-charging (http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/4345-agm-charging)

considering voltage output from the r/r -
This is how I think it works, I say think,
There are two positive wires from the r/r I think one is a high current wire and the other is low current. both wires are connected together but the low current wire can be routed through an ignition switch. I believe the low current wire is used to measure current/voltage and is protected by a high resistance. If there is low current draw the high current wire may exceed the voltage of the low current wire causing current to flow in reverse up that wire this causes the Regulator to dump charge into the heat sink raising the current draw which lowers the voltage on the high current wire, the high current wires voltage is stabilised in this way around the voltage of the low current wire.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on February 24, 2016, 01:43:13 PM
If you want to measure ripple, switch the voltmeter to AC Volts range and measure across the terminals.  It's probably a very small voltage because the battery acts as a ballast, absorbing any ripple.
Yes the battery acts as ballast which makes it impossible (with basic tools) to measure ripple. if you removed the battery - no that wont work either because ballast is required in the circuit. Why does the regulator not have its own ballast? it may have but then again ripple in the voltage likely better for the battery charging. All I can say is a single phase inherently should produce more ripple than a three phase.

Why does Guzzi use a crappy single phase when almost all other manufacturers use 3? - not necessarily so crappy 3 phase is actually a cheaper solution.

Why is the alternator output so feeble? well the earlier v7 like the breva have a more powerful dry alternator with the same R/R. The revised engine has a different alternator - for all I know it might be a 3 phase wound as a single phase (speculation - that would be crappy the result would be a lower output alternator without changing the regulator)
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 24, 2016, 02:49:46 PM
considering voltage output from the r/r -
This is how I think it works, I say think,
There are two positive wires from the r/r I think one is a high current wire and the other is low current. both wires are connected together but the low current wire can be routed through an ignition switch. I believe the low current wire is used to measure current/voltage and is protected by a high resistance. If there is low current draw the high current wire may exceed the voltage of the low current wire causing current to flow in reverse up that wire this causes the Regulator to dump charge into the heat sink raising the current draw which lowers the voltage on the high current wire, the high current wires voltage is stabilised in this way around the voltage of the low current wire.

So basically the low current wire through the ignition switch is the battery sensing circuit? Is that correct?

If so, I wonder if low voltage on the low current wire due to ignition switch resistance, leads to high charging on high current wire?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on February 24, 2016, 02:56:38 PM
So basically the low current wire through the ignition switch is the battery sensing circuit? Is that correct?

If so, I wonder if low voltage on the low current wire due to ignition switch resistance, leads to high charging on high current wire?

No because on the v7 the two wires are joined as they go into the first connector. well on the circuit diagram that's how it is. but why are there 2 +ve wires. on some other bikes there are 2 wires and one goes through the ignition switch. I speculate that the regulator has 2 wires because it could be wired that way. just joining the wires as on the v7 that could be done inside the R/R.

Edit: Speculating further if designed this way - the low current wire could also be connected to a smart ecu that could provide secondary regulation.

Ask me how a rectifier works thats simple. Regulators are complicated.

Bed time reading:

http://m.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-a-reliable-motorcycle-voltage-regulato/?ALLSTEPS (http://m.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-a-reliable-motorcycle-voltage-regulato/?ALLSTEPS)
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on February 24, 2016, 10:55:24 PM
Here's a question. Does the circuitry in this regulator not adjust to system load and battery charge need? I.E. if the battery is discharged it's going to regulate the charge rate on the higher side until the battery is properly charged AND/OR load drops meaning it can shunt more power to ground and lower the charge rate more toward 13 volts.
As Todd on GT pointed out, the R/R does not adjust the voltage delivered depending on the charge state of the battery. 

The rectifier's job is to convert AC voltage to full-wave AC voltage with a DC offset.  The job of the regulator is to smooth the full-wave AC and keep the output at a constant DC value (with some variation due to ambient temperature).  The current DRAWN by the battery to satisfy its charging appetite is dependant on it's initial charge state, the voltage delivered by the R/R and the internal resistance of the battery.  The current drawn is, by Ohm's Law, the voltage difference between the regulated voltage and the battery's terminal voltage divided by the internal equivalent resistance of the battery.  With 14.4-14.8V regulated and a battery in good condition, that creates an optimal charge current for these small AGM batteries -- about 10% of the AH rating of the battery.  When the output voltage of the R/R goes above 15V, the charge current drawn is higher (because the voltage difference is greater) to a point where it exceeds the manufacturer's recommended charge rate.  This can destroy the cells in the battery over time due to overheating.  This cycle results in higher internal resistance, which causes greater heating which causes accelerated battery degradation.

Any excess current capable of being delivered by the alternator goes to powering the motorcycle electrics, and not into the battery.  In other words, the total current delivered by the alternator is the sum of the battery charging current plus the load of the motorcycle electrics.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on February 24, 2016, 11:22:35 PM
The R/R has four output wires -- two for ground and two for positive -- because of limitations on the PCB for the copper traces to handle the maximum current of the device.  If all the current drawn through the MOSFET was delivered through one connector joined to one trace, the PCB trace would not have the cross-sectional area needed to deliver that current without burning up.  So the manufacturer provides two connection points and doubles the volume of PCB copper through which the current can be delivered.  This goes equally for the ground wires because the same current delivered has to return back to the R/R through the ground.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on February 25, 2016, 06:28:20 AM
The R/R has four output wires -- two for ground and two for positive -- because of limitations on the PCB for the copper traces to handle the maximum current of the device.  If all the current drawn through the MOSFET was delivered through one connector joined to one trace, the PCB trace would not have the cross-sectional area needed to deliver that current without burning up.  So the manufacturer provides two connection points and doubles the volume of PCB copper through which the current can be delivered.  This goes equally for the ground wires because the same current delivered has to return back to the R/R through the ground.

Thanks:
 so its a very basic R/R unit that can only be used on a permanent magnet single phase alternator. It either works or it does not. 2 wires go in AC, 2 paired wires come out DC. If the battery, lights and other electics do not draw all the current provided by the alternator input it dumps the excess charge into the heat sink to prevent the output voltage rising during low current draw?
The alternator produces 100% power for the rpm all the time. Excess charge goes to the battery till it resists then it goes to the heat sink.
If your battery resists charge DC voltage output increases to a point where the R/R decides to dump it as heat. That point seems to be around 15v but the R/R may be effected by heat as well (but not a lot) depending if its hot or cold the regulated voltage may vary (hopefully by less than 1%, 2% well ok, more than 5% damned things junk)
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on February 25, 2016, 06:47:33 AM
Theoretically -
Fit this between regulator and battery, use the lightbulb output to power your heated gloves,

http://www.windynation.com/Charge-Controllers/Windy-Nation-Inc/P30L-LCD-30A-PWM-Solar-Panel-Regulator-Charge-Controller-with-Digital-Display-and-User-Adjustable-Settings/-/628?p=YzE9MTc= (http://www.windynation.com/Charge-Controllers/Windy-Nation-Inc/P30L-LCD-30A-PWM-Solar-Panel-Regulator-Charge-Controller-with-Digital-Display-and-User-Adjustable-Settings/-/628?p=YzE9MTc=)

You will be able to monitor and control battery charge + use your gloves as a heat sink?

Jobs a good un... :thumb:

Ps think theres even a handy thermometer to monitor battery temperature. ;)
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on February 25, 2016, 07:00:43 AM
... If the battery, lights and other electics do not draw all the current provided by the alternator input it dumps the excess charge into the heat sink to prevent the output voltage rising during low current draw?
No, that's not the case.

The battery and other motorcycle electrics represent a load to the power source, the alternator/voltage regulator combination.  By Ohm's Law, the load will demand a certain current from the power source, assuming the power source has a fixed DC voltage output of 14.4V.  The power source will never deliver more current than is demanded of it. 

The alternator is sized to deliver more RMS AC voltage than desired and have a power capacity in watts higher than what will be demanded from it.  When the AC from the alternator is rectified, the DC component of the resulting full-wave rectified waveform is greater than the regulated output.  For example, after rectification, the resulting rectified DC input into the regulator will be 20-30 volts depending on the alternator's design, but in that region.  The regulator will output 14.4V and will try its hardest to always maintain that output.  In the best case, there will be (20-14.4)=5.6V differential across the regulator; in the worst case, (30-14.4)=15.6V.

The regulator itself is a load and has an equivalent internal resistance.  That resistance causes a power drop across the regulator which is wasted in the form of heat as the regulator attempts to adjust the output to 14.4V.  The amount of heat wasted is proportional to the load current demanded from it.

The designers attempt to overspec the power characteristics of the alternator, ensuring that the theoretical deliverable power of the alternator is never exceeded by the power demands of the load to which it is attached.  If you add extra load to the electrical system (heated gear or electronic gadgets for example) to a point which exceeds the power capacity of the alternator, the output of the alternator will drop in an attempt to service that load.  Ultimately, if the excess load continues, the alternator will fail as it will not be able to keep up with the demand and will burn out.  The point is that the alternator will not produce power up to its theoretical value, it will only produce power what is demanded of it, which is usually less than theoretical.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 25, 2016, 08:36:51 AM
Good stuff guys thanks.

So to put it in layman's terms for owners who want to check theirs, at what threshold would you recommend a replacement regulator?

If it exceed 15? If it exceeds some lower number (for a better cushion)?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 25, 2016, 03:37:06 PM
I did a diode check on the VR today
I got 2 sets of 0 and 2 sets of numbers so that part checks out
The numbers however are very far apart
One set is 201 and201
The other set is 569 and 564
I have no idea what that means
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Zinfan on February 25, 2016, 06:50:24 PM
In October 2014 I had trouble starting the bike one night so I checked charging voltage (I have a 2013 V7 Stone).  At idle it was reading 15.3 volts so I replaced it with a Mosfet R/R no issues since then.  Tomorrow I will take the bike out for a ride and measure the voltage for an up to date report.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Vagrant on February 26, 2016, 06:11:05 PM
I just replaced the 2015 regulator with a new one. old was 17.79 last I checked at 3-4000. new one is 12.95 at idle and 14.3-14.4 at 3500. hopefully it didn't cook anything in it's 2400 miles.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on February 26, 2016, 06:59:13 PM
More bed time reading:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?240785-Facts-about-shunt-based-regulators (http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?240785-Facts-about-shunt-based-regulators)

not the easiest to follow,

it seems that if you are troubled by the low output (270w) a change to a mosfet R/R can reclaim power loss from oem R/R (upto 10%)

Also I am sure if the voltage is too high components such as lights will use more power!

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on February 26, 2016, 08:27:57 PM
If you have a parasitic drain on your battery (more than the ecu for example) then when you fire up the bike, the charging system is always going to try to charge the battery. A fully charged battery can sit at 14.4 volts for years in float.  Fully charged being the important caveat.

The charging systems on motorcycles and cars aren't designed to charge the batteries, they are designed to maintain them. They run the vehicles electrical systems and replace the charge used to start the engine (high draw) and so on. That is why, should your battery ever become discharged quite a bit, you should charge it properly, not just take it for a ride. It will last longer and perform better.

Battery tenders are not good chargers, they are float maintainers designed to maintain a fully charged battery at optimum charge.

The battery need both proper voltage and amps to charge. Checking volts only doesn't tell you the true state of charge for a battery.

An analogy that might help some is that the battery stores amps, not volts. A battery at 12.7 volts doesn't mean it can start your bike, why you can check the battery for voltage and yet get slow turn and click click click.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on February 27, 2016, 12:03:09 AM
An analogy that might help some is that the battery stores amps, not volts. A battery at 12.7 volts doesn't mean it can start your bike, why you can check the battery for voltage and yet get slow turn and click click click.
I'm sorry but that's not a good analogy, and is misleading.  Volts are a measure of potential and amps are a measure of flow. Volts are like measuring the potential ability of the battery to supply its store of energy. Current is the flow of of this energy store from higher potential to lower potential. Clearly, one can't store something that is in motion.   Consequently, a battery that is in poor condition cannot supply a connected load with the energy it demands when it demands it, because internal resistance impedes the delivery of current (i.e. amps). 

A better analogy is like a water tank, a faucet and a pipe.  The tank is the battery, the pipe is the internal resistance and the faucet is the load.  The tank has the potential to deliver its full volume of water (i.e. potential)  through the pipe to the faucet).  If you measure the volume of water in the tank, you get an idea of its potential.    If the pipe is large, the water will flow freely from the tank when the faucet is turned on;  in the same way a fully charged battery is able to deliver full current to a load when it's demanded.  If the pipe is corroded and clogged with sediment (like internal resistance exhibited by a battery in poor condition) then the water cannot be delivered at the same rate when the faucet is opened.  This is like the starter motor failing to turn over even though the battery appears to have the potential to do so.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on February 27, 2016, 02:33:31 AM
A battery does store Amps not volts - thats not an analogy thats a fact.
A batterys capacity is measured in Amp hours.

A battery can be charged at even 16v that might be just fine for short duration rapid charge but when we talk about maintained and float the batterys natural rest voltage fully charged is 12.8v (although there is a complication that a battery may for short duration minutes hold upto (think) 13.8v) If you connect it to a higher voltage it will have no choice to accept more charge which it cannot store, the battery would heat up.
 Things that effect how much it would heat up are, its ability to convert the charge into stored energy (none on a fully charged battery), its ability to disipate heat, the number of amps the supply can provide (spare amps not necesarily that many on a V7), the potential difference in volts between supply and battery and the internal restistance to charge of the battery which it seems is not constant and may be much higher when the potential difference is lower? (batterys seem to need about 1v pd to charge)
Ideally you check the R/R and it shows somewhere between 13.8v and 14.8v and that should be OK because with a PD of less than 2v on a fully charged battery the battery will have some resistance to charge and what extra charge it receives it will disipate (i.e. the battery is sitting in float)

Now V7 R/R apears to be set at 15v which confuses because that seems to be too much for float charge but its not so much as to be clearly wrong. That does not mean its not good it means its in a grey area that is very hard to understand. It might be that the low power rating of the V7 alternator and the characteristic of PMA / stator not to stress under short circuit keeps the system in harmony (until lights are changed for LED and then there is spare amps to do battery damage?) It might be the fact that the DC from the single phase alternator is highly choppy pulsed unlike a smooth 3 phase delivery so volt meters read a little high due to their internal damping or the choppy DC is acceptable at a higher voltage.

Regarding R/R output it should not vary by more than 0.5v when measured ar any rpm above 1500.

Regarding overcharging Im wondering if sticking a thermometer strip on the battery would be a better way of monitoring than measuring if worried about 15v
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: kingoffleece on February 28, 2016, 09:37:36 PM
That said, mine my 2015 V7 measures at between 14 and 14.5 from 1500 to 6000 rpm.  Constant reading on my meter. 
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on February 28, 2016, 09:59:15 PM
Amps being flow is correct, when talking bout wires, hence the term ampacity. If the wire is insufficient to provide the needed flow it heats up, voltage over distance is lost and so on.

In batteries, it isn't the flow that is only measured but the energy potential stored in the battery as measured by total capacity which can be x Watts or Amps depending on who is stating it.

Some of my 6 volt battery have a capacity of 225 amp hours, others have 305 and are larger. Still others get into the 700-1000 and greater capacities.

Battery capacities are measured in amps, not volts. Batteries no matter how they are wired together will not have less than the rated capacity on a single battery in the bank. The voltage can vary as determined by series or parallel wiring, in series the voltage doubling for example while the total capacity remaining at the amount for a single battery. In parallel, the voltage can for example remain as is(2 -6 volt remaining 6) but doubling in amps.

Also true is that if the wiring is insufficient, all that capacity means zip if it goes up in heat or smoke. Also true is that a battery can be caused to discharge very rapidly or charged very rapidly and that some of the potential charge or potential storage goes up in heat.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on February 28, 2016, 10:24:48 PM
If interested, there is a very good EEVblog video tutorial on battery capacity (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8hTQXqURB4) geared heavily to portable electronics designers but still applicable to vehicular applications.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 29, 2016, 09:35:31 AM
I changed the fuel filter and voltage regulator in my V7 this weekend.
I installed a mosfet VR.
It was not technically challenging but the wiring is fiddly and removing the fuel tank is a pain.
I tried the adapter bracket from roadster cycle but the VR fouled the engine guard bars. I elongated the stock mounting holes instead.
The VR works great; steady 14.2 volts..
The adapter bracket will work if you don't have"crash bars".
I did some internet research and found that the VR problem has been known for a few years.
I'm only aware of 1 incident where it caused major problems.
It seems that most of the time it just shortens the battery life.
I feel better knowing that the VR on my bike is performing at the recommended level
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: tonUPRacer on February 29, 2016, 10:27:53 AM
does anyone have a link to order the actual replacement VR? I see lots of links for batteries, electrical theory, etc. but no link for the fix., that would be very helpful. I haven't checked mine yet, but based on poll numbers I'm guessing I'll be doing that soon.

Grazie.

Andy
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 29, 2016, 10:33:43 AM
does anyone have a link to order the actual replacement VR? I see lots of links for batteries, electrical theory, etc. but no link for the fix., that would be very helpful. I haven't checked mine yet, but based on poll numbers I'm guessing I'll be doing that soon.

Grazie.

Andy

I believe that there is no plug-n-play fix yet.

The Mosfet requires cutting and soldering/crimping some wires.

The V7II regulator MIGHT be an option (not sure if the wiring matches though).

Todd a Guzzitech is currently investigation a plug-n-play solution.

I have yet to test mine. Maybe tomorrow.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: tonUPRacer on February 29, 2016, 10:47:14 AM
Thanks Kev, yeah I was aware Todd was looking into a plug n play, which would be great....but if that doesn't come to fruition, I'm fine with doing a little crimping and soldering. Anyone have a part no. or link for the Mossfet? Also looks like an adapter plate is required just some aluminum stock cut to size?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 29, 2016, 11:19:35 AM
Thanks Kev, yeah I was aware Todd was looking into a plug n play, which would be great....but if that doesn't come to fruition, I'm fine with doing a little crimping and soldering. Anyone have a part no. or link for the Mossfet? Also looks like an adapter plate is required just some aluminum stock cut to size?

Never Mind, I spoke too soon (didn't check Guzzitech this morning, Todd posted EARLY this morning):

Quote from: GT-Rx®, post: 115024, member: 57
OK, sounds like you have it all figured out for everyone. So I'll bow out of this project now. Far too many irons in the fire.

Guess we're on our own.

Looks like people have used various solutions. One report is a Mosfet/SHINDENGEN FH020AA?

I'm seeing reports of 3-phase and have terminals for 3 yellow stator output wires.

Word is our V7's (I haven't checked this yet) have only 2 output wires. Meaning we would then just connect to any 2 of the R/R input yellow wires/terminals leaving the 3rd unused. Or if there's a pigtail I think some have suggested we splice 2 of the 3 input wires together.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on February 29, 2016, 11:29:14 AM
Word is our V7's (I haven't checked this yet) have only 2 output wires. Meaning we would then just connect to any 2 of the R/R input yellow wires/terminals leaving the 3rd unused. Or if there's a pigtail I think some have suggested we splice 2 of the 3 input wires together.
Connect the two wires to any of the three available R/R inputs. Don't use a pigtail.  The alternator input goes through the rectifier and it's phasing is not critical.

There was someone who posted to GT saying that the new V7II for 2015 has 7 wires into the VR, not 6 as previous.  They mentioned "white plug has 3 big yellow ones not 2. .... the black has 2 red with white stripe and 2 solid green".  If this is correct, then the newer alternator is 3-phase Delta, not single-phase.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 29, 2016, 11:50:10 AM
Connect the two wires to any of the three available R/R inputs. Don't use a pigtail.  The alternator input goes through the rectifier and it's phasing is not critical.

There was someone who posted to GT saying that the new V7II for 2015 has 7 wires into the VR, not 6 as previous.  They mentioned "white plug has 3 big yellow ones not 2. .... the black has 2 red with white stripe and 2 solid green".  If this is correct, then the newer alternator is 3-phase Delta, not single-phase.

Are the plugs the same on the V7 and V7 II R/R's? (just with an additional unused pin on the V7)? Or should I assume they wouldn't be plug and play either?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on February 29, 2016, 12:10:24 PM
Good question.  I don't think myself qualified to give the definitive answer, but given the differences in the number of wires on the R/R units, I'd say they are not interchangeable.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 29, 2016, 12:23:08 PM
Good question.  I don't think myself qualified to give the definitive answer, but given the differences in the number of wires on the R/R units, I'd say they are not interchangeable.

But don't the alternates that are being used such as the Mosfet/SHINDENGEN FH020AA have the same wiring? I.E. they're set-up for 3-wire stator output connections (3-phase stators)?

EDIT - here's on Mosfet solution being used:

Quote from: 99sh, post: 115014, member: 8100
Bought mine from this seller (there are many others if you search): http://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-SHINDENGEN-FH020AA-REGULATOR-W-CONNECTORS-REPLACES-FH012AA-/380705241034?hash=item58a3ccf7ca:m:mkhmKfGHbRfG_5CQV4N lU0g

For $120 shipped, it comes with everything you need. I already had some AL sheet laying around, so cutting was no big deal (made a template from cardboard first to get shape down). No need for any circuit breakers, the VR output goes to your fusebox already.

and

Quote from: 99sh, post: 115019, member: 8100
Wiring is extremely easy. There are two connectors, one is a 3-pin, other 2-pin

The 2-pin connector is the Battery positive & ground
The 3-pin connector goes to your stator  (yellow wires)

Note: my 2013 has a 2-phase stator, hence has 2 yellow wires. Most bikes (suspect the newer V7s) have the usual 3-phase stator. If you have a 2-phase unit, connect the 2 yellow wires to any of the 3 pins. If you have 3-yellow wires stock, you have a 3-phase unit and will connect each yellow wire to each pin on the regulator (order doesn't matter).

(http://www.guzzitech.com/forums/attachments/carr5925-fh012aa-fh020aa-yamaha-spanningsregelaar-png.9757/)

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: tonUPRacer on February 29, 2016, 01:35:55 PM
Thanks for tracking that info down Kev. I'm probably a few weeks away from firing my bike up and testing (I'll post results) but it's good to have this info ready if I need it.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pyoungbl on February 29, 2016, 02:12:42 PM
The Mosfet R/R had a different bolt pattern so I made a simple bracket which also doubles as a heat sink:
(https://peteryoungblood.smugmug.com/Motorcycles/13-V7-Special/i-s6hrTsR/0/M/DSCF0989-M.jpg)

Peter Y.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pyoungbl on February 29, 2016, 03:56:34 PM
John, the wires that came with the R/R kit were long enough that I had to cut them down a bit in order to keep everything neat and tidy.

Peter Y.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on February 29, 2016, 04:34:06 PM
I have a new aluminum mounting plate that I bought for the Mosfet installation but I didn't use it
Does anyone want it?  $20 shipped?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Zinfan on February 29, 2016, 05:10:47 PM
I bought mine here http://www.roadstercycle.com/  I bought the Super Mosfit kit with circuit breaker. 
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 29, 2016, 06:28:05 PM
I bought mine here http://www.roadstercycle.com/  I bought the Super Mosfit kit with circuit breaker.

Thanks for posting.

Any details on which kit and how you installed?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on February 29, 2016, 08:37:14 PM
But don't the alternates that are being used such as the Mosfet/SHINDENGEN FH020AA have the same wiring? I.E. they're set-up for 3-wire stator output connections (3-phase stators)?
Apologies Kev.  I thought you were asking about whether the OEM R/R for the V7 would be interchangeable with the OEM R/R for the V7II.  I didn't get that you were asking about OEM versus aftermarket.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on February 29, 2016, 09:01:19 PM
Apologies Kev.  I thought you were asking about whether the OEM R/R for the V7 would be interchangeable with the OEM R/R for the V7II.  I didn't get that you were asking about OEM versus aftermarket.

No, you're right, I was asking that too.

I'm just looking at all options. Trying to narrow down what's best for us all.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 01, 2016, 06:29:46 AM
OK, REAL TEST (running voltage monitor) coming in a few hours.

BUT, we have our first indication that all might not be right.


It occurred to me when thinking about this last night that over the past few years that the V7 has been in the fleet that during the winter months when I rotate a Battery Tender through the bikes (I do that once a month, to each bike for a few hours or a day) that the V7 has always been the slowest to change from RED to flashing Green to solid Green.

I didn't think much of it because at first it wasn't far off from the Sportster, which in retrospect might have been a red flag since the Sportster battery was ALREADY 6 years old the day I brought the V7 home for the first time. By the time I noticed this similarity I think it was 8 years old!

So last night I go out to plug the charger in (changing of the month means it's time again, for reference the "nice" bikes - meaning the Duc and Goose - have been asleep since the end of Nov/beg of Dec when they salted the roads for the first time).

I plugged the Battery Tender into the Goose and waited a few minutes, still RED, ok, I'll check back.

I checked an hour later, STILL RED - UH OHHH.

I checked 2 hours later, STILL RED - OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH .

I checked this morning - OK, it's GREEN.

I unplug the tender from the V7 and plug it into the 2 year older, couple of thousand less miles Ducati that gets ridden less often but which was charged within hours of the last time the V7 was charged AND - FLASHING GREEN BEFORE I EVEN GET TO THE GARAGE DOOR.


So we have our first indication that the battery in the V7 is NOT as healthy as the 2 year older battery in the Ducati.

I'll report back later today if I find the suspected reason for that difference.

If I had to guess though I'm going to say the charging voltage is going to be high.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 01, 2016, 11:57:52 AM
Do you know for certain if the V7 has more or less parasitic draws than the Duke? If not you are chasing ghosts.

You might want to try a charger that shows the amperage going into the battery otherwise you really can't tell what is going on, just guessing.

Your battery might be in a worse condition on the V7 but if it is more than a few years old it means little. One battery could have been inferior from the start. How would you know?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Zinfan on March 01, 2016, 01:07:27 PM
Thanks for posting.

Any details on which kit and how you installed?

That page is a bit confusing since all the products are listed on the same page, here is a screenshot of the one I bought
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/RickFi/mosfet%20kit%20really_zpsjxyhn9lu.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/RickFi/media/mosfet%20kit%20really_zpsjxyhn9lu.jpg.html)

I'll see if I can take any informative pictures but most of that stuff is buried under the tank.  I do remember giving some thought to the connection between the stator and the R/R in that it seemed I'd have to cut the wires from the stator in a manner that would not allow me to go back to a stock R/R but looking at it further I found that I could splice the new harness in after the stator connector and thus retain the ability to plug a stocker back in.  It's a bit fuzzy now sorry!
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Zinfan on March 01, 2016, 01:56:18 PM
No way to get any pictures of the R/R install, just too much in the way.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/RickFi/SAM_3990_zps5z63zf2j.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/RickFi/media/SAM_3990_zps5z63zf2j.jpg.html)
Here is my bike fresh off the battery tender

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/RickFi/SAM_3991_zpsf3ph1yap.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/RickFi/media/SAM_3991_zpsf3ph1yap.jpg.html)
At idle

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/RickFi/SAM_3992_zpsq5ye5zam.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/RickFi/media/SAM_3992_zpsq5ye5zam.jpg.html)
At 4000 rpm

So at least the mosfet R/R remains working well.  I do think I'll replace the battery before I go for an extended trip later this year as I ran it flat once when I forgot to put the tender on it and didn't ride for awhile.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 01, 2016, 02:35:03 PM
OK, so cold start this afternoon gave me 15.4 Volts from 1-4k rpm.

I figured I've had it for years and it's probably always done this, so I took it for a ride (to drain the fuel a bit, I figure it's probably easier to pull the tank to do this anyway, and I might as well replace that fuel filter now if that's the case).

When I got back it was reading 12.8 volts at idle, but still 15.4 anywhere above that.

I need a voltage regulator, and I'm starting to believe I won't be alone.

Jay and Cam are gonna test there's this week, but our assumption is that we'll be order 4 voltage regulators by next week.

Zinfan - THANKS FOR ALL THAT. One last follow-up question. Did that require a mounting plate? If so did you buy that universal plate from him or fabricate one yourself?

NP - I understand your point, but practically speaking I suspect the parasitic loads are comparable differnt only by RCHs between all 3 of the bikes in the fleet. There's little doubt in my mind the battery was damaged over time with too high a charge rate.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 01, 2016, 02:56:06 PM
If you don't use the adapter plate the stock mounting holes in the frame can be easily elongated and the Mosfet unit bolted in the stock location
I used a 1/4" rat tail file and one of those rotary cutting bits in a drill
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 01, 2016, 03:46:50 PM
OK, so cold start this afternoon gave me 15.4 Volts from 1-4k rpm.

I figured I've had it for years and it's probably always done this, so I took it for a ride (to drain the fuel a bit, I figure it's probably easier to pull the tank to do this anyway, and I might as well replace that fuel filter now if that's the case).

When I got back it was reading 12.8 volts at idle, but still 15.4 anywhere above that.

I need a voltage regulator, and I'm starting to believe I won't be alone.

Jay and Cam are gonna test there's this week, but our assumption is that we'll be order 4 voltage regulators by next week.

Zinfan - THANKS FOR ALL THAT. One last follow-up question. Did that require a mounting plate? If so did you buy that universal plate from him or fabricate one yourself?

NP - I understand your point, but practically speaking I suspect the parasitic loads are comparable differnt only by RCHs between all 3 of the bikes in the fleet. There's little doubt in my mind the battery was damaged over time with too high a charge rate.

When you replace that battery and install a fresh VR, what an opportunity to document and check performance over time.

Beware of the surface charge. As you can see a few posts above, checking a battery fresh off a charge is meaningless. Batteries get a surface charge that needs to be discharged before an accurate reading of the battery can take place.

You can turn on some accessories with the engine off but ignition on but a better way is to leave it overnight and check it the following day.

By allowing the surface charge to discharge you get a real indication of the batteries charged voltage.

Following that ritual, checking each week or so you can plot performance over time, if it is a curiosity to you.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 01, 2016, 03:51:02 PM
No way to get any pictures of the R/R install, just too much in the way.
(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/RickFi/SAM_3990_zps5z63zf2j.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/RickFi/media/SAM_3990_zps5z63zf2j.jpg.html)
Here is my bike fresh off the battery tender

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/RickFi/SAM_3991_zpsf3ph1yap.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/RickFi/media/SAM_3991_zpsf3ph1yap.jpg.html)
At idle

(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a189/RickFi/SAM_3992_zpsq5ye5zam.jpg) (http://s11.photobucket.com/user/RickFi/media/SAM_3992_zpsq5ye5zam.jpg.html)
At 4000 rpm

So at least the mosfet R/R remains working well.  I do think I'll replace the battery before I go for an extended trip later this year as I ran it flat once when I forgot to put the tender on it and didn't ride for awhile.

The first pic is what I was referring to, the surface charge. Checking a battery fresh of a charger show you nothing unless it was overcharged. Even a bad battery is likely to show decent voltage right off the charger.

Remove the surface charge and then you'll know what the state of charge really is.

Best way is to let it sit overnight, better than putting a load on it unless you know what that load is and repeat it accurately each time you check it.

Surface charges are what tricks people into thinking their battery is ok, they take off and after eating lunch or something, the come out and the battery is a clicker.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 01, 2016, 03:56:29 PM
When you replace that battery and install a fresh VR, what an opportunity to document and check performance over time.

Beware of the surface charge. As you can see a few posts above... <snip>

Well, I'm not planning on replacing the battery at this time. I suspect it's lost some lifespan, but it certainly doesn't seem dead.

And though I appreciate the well-meaning pointers, you don't know what I do for a living do you? (no big deal, it's just funny).



Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 01, 2016, 04:01:26 PM
Well, I'm not planning on replacing the battery at this time. I suspect it's lost some lifespan, but it certainly doesn't seem dead.

And though I appreciate the well-meaning pointers, you don't know what I do for a living do you? (no big deal, it's just funny).

No, :laugh:

Cause I stopped doing stuff for a living some time ago, figured everyone else had too.  :thumb:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 01, 2016, 05:52:21 PM
Regarding that kit with a circuit breaker, I don't see the need to add any more circuit protection, as the bike should already have the required circuit protections, no?

The Record fairing lower mount might pose a challenge to mounting the new VR on the Racer.   :shocked:

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 01, 2016, 06:07:02 PM
I wonder if there's a reason for the circuit breaker though. Is it just an over-voltage circuit protector or something else?

Remember the aftermarket replacement R/R I put on the Jackal, something about the battery feed utilized a sensing circuit that remained on and drained the battery.

I guess it's not to prevent something like that or it would be called something else. But still, makes me wonder.

I assume those that bought from the eBay seller didn't wire in a circuit breaker so you're probably right that it's not necessary.

On the Record fairing, at least you'll be able to adjust wire lengths if you have to reposition the regulator much.

I do still wonder on the V7 II OEM regulator wouldn't work better.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Zinfan on March 01, 2016, 06:20:10 PM
I don't know much about electrical circuits but when installing this kit you connect it directly to the battery, you do not use the existing wire harness.  That may explain the need for the protection or maybe is doesn't.

KevM  I did use an adapter plate to mount mine, didn't think about elongating the holes, I guess having the extra plate can add a bit of heat dissipation?

Norge Pilot since I'm taking and posting pictures to show my bike's performance I didn't then decide to take the extra steps of trying to show the actual state of the battery, the idea was to show the bike charging system at idle and 4k rpm and it seemed useful (apparently not) to show it in it's shut off state.   

Ok read a FAQ on the roadstercycle.com webpage and it says regarding the circuit protection

Quote
What's the difference between an auto reset circuit breaker and a maxifuse?

They are both fuses that protect the main positive wire going from the new MOSFET setup to the battery. The circuit breaker is smaller and more compact. They have been used for years in cars and Harley Davidson motorcycles. It will auto reset if it gets tripped. The maxifuse is a bigger fuse that also protects the main positive wire going to the battery from the new MOSFET setup. If it blows you will need an extra with you to replace it. Usually these fuses protect us from ourselves if we are working on our bikes and accidentally touch this wire to ground it will blow the fuse or open the circuit breaker. Very rarely does a bad R/R actually blow a fuse they usually just open and go bad. I've seen them completely burnt up and never blow a fuse.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Guzzidad on March 01, 2016, 06:34:16 PM
   Curiosity is killing me. Has anyone even TRIED what I suggested at the beginning of this thread? Unplug the headlight and then check charging with the bike running. I know this works on my 01EV but I don't know if the same electrical logic was applied to the V7s. I have mine under control but I want to take it a step further and add a relay to turn the headlight on. Maybe two relays, one for low beam and one for high beam. Certainly way less expensive than a Mosfit R/R
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Guzzidad on March 01, 2016, 06:42:05 PM
   Zinfan's last post just re-enforced what I've been saying. It's not the R/R, it's the wiring. Energizing a relay would cause a far lower voltage drop than lighting up a 55W headlight.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Guzzidad on March 01, 2016, 06:49:07 PM
   By the way Kev, what DO you do for a living? I recently retired from the corrugated box industry as a maintenance tech. Jack of all trades but master of none.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: oldbike54 on March 01, 2016, 07:02:27 PM
   By the way Kev, what DO you do for a living? I recently retired from the corrugated box industry as a maintenance tech. Jack of all trades but master of none.

 He plays with his kids and on the internet . Tough job , but someone has to do it , right Kev ? :laugh:

  Dusty
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 01, 2016, 07:20:09 PM
Guzzidad, I put myself through college add a mechanic and have spent the last 2+ decades writing repair manuals.

But I'll admit my experience is often wider than it is deep. I know more a bit about a lot than a lot about a bit. So I'm always learning.

I have been wondering about your point, but if that was the issue, then why would fitting the Mosfit fix it?

I haven't yet looked at the V7 wiring diagram. So I should probably do that next.

Zin, I'm under the impression others have wired the Mosfit into the OEM wiring. I guess we should sort that question out next, I.E. which is better and why.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 01, 2016, 07:21:12 PM
He plays with his kids and on the internet . Tough job , but someone has to do it , right Kev ? :laugh:

  Dusty

That too... :boozing:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: oldbike54 on March 01, 2016, 07:22:34 PM
That too... :boozing:

 Momma always told me to do something you are good at  :bow:

 Dusty
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 01, 2016, 07:28:57 PM
I wonder if there's a reason for the circuit breaker though. Is it just an over-voltage circuit protector or something else?
The circuit interrupter is an over-current protection, as Zinfan pointed out a fuse. In its position being in series with the positive battery lead, it can't detect voltage so can't trigger on an over-voltage situation.

Remember the aftermarket replacement R/R I put on the Jackal, something about the battery feed utilized a sensing circuit that remained on and drained the battery.
Being a series regulator with MOSFET drivers, it goes open circuit when powered down.  MOSFETs have nearly perfect switching characteristics (near zero on resistance, near infinite off resistance) so there will be negligible leakage current and no parasitic battery drain.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 01, 2016, 07:42:28 PM
Remember the aftermarket replacement R/R I put on the Jackal, something about the battery feed utilized a sensing circuit that remained on and drained the battery.
Oh yeah -- that was an annoying problem.

I guess it's not to prevent something like that or it would be called something else. But still, makes me wonder.

I assume those that bought from the eBay seller didn't wire in a circuit breaker so you're probably right that it's not necessary.

On the Record fairing, at least you'll be able to adjust wire lengths if you have to reposition the regulator much.

I do still wonder on the V7 II OEM regulator wouldn't work better.

I wonder too about the V7 II OEM unit. 

As for the eBay one, there is a lot of Chinese-built crap for sale on eBay, I'm a little leery.    I'd be more inclined to use an OEM unit from another Motorcycle Mfg, like maybe the Yamaha that the eBay unit is made for.

Of course, if the Yamaha part is twice as much money, then, it is our duty as Guzzi riders to go with the cheaper solution   :evil:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 01, 2016, 07:45:41 PM
He plays with his kids and on the internet . Tough job , but someone has to do it , right Kev ? :laugh:

  Dusty

That's only part of the story, he also rides his motorcycles.

In his defense, he also cooks all the meals for his family (he's quite a good cook too).
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Guzzidad on March 01, 2016, 07:50:43 PM
   Thanks Kev. OK, here's my point. The original R/R, at least on my bike, senses voltage through the headlight circuit. But, on my bike, when the headlight is on it causes a voltage drop of 2V. The R/R reacts and sends 15+ volts back to the battery. Zinfed states the Mosfit R/R is wired direct to the battery. That's why it doesn't over charge. Wire the original R/R direct to the battery and it will probably perform the same as a Mosfit. As I've mentioned before, I think the wiring from the headlight relay, through the harness, to the bulb is too small to carry the load causing a voltage drop and fooling the R/R that the battery needs help. Now, I know this is the case on my bike but I remind you, The V7 might be different. But how hard is it to check?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 01, 2016, 08:03:14 PM
Well, I have TWO V7's so, I SHOULD be able to vote twice.    The poll won't let me.
So, add another one to the 15V and over count.

EDIT: both bikes were just taken off a float charge, so, the batteries are fully charged.

My 2013 V7R is 15.30 Volts at any RPM from idle up to 4,000.
My 2014 V7 Special is 15.50 Volts at any RPM from idle up to 4,000.

Both bikes have LED lighting resulting in a 30W lower power draw.      The V7S had heated grips, which draw 27W on high, so, with those on high, the power draw should be what a bike with stock light draws.    The voltage was still 15.40 Volts.

I will definitely be installing a MOSFET regulator on the V7R, but, am inclined to go the warranty route with the V7S, not because I expect that to actually fix it, but, more to send a message to Guzzi that there is a problem.

When that one results in too high a voltage, I'll install a MOSFET regulator on it too.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: kingoffleece on March 01, 2016, 08:13:41 PM
I'm not sure if this helps but at idle there was no movement on my meter when I switched on high beams along with turn signal and brake light.  I'm good at 14.24 from 2K to 6K, which is as high as I tested.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 01, 2016, 08:30:36 PM
   Thanks Kev. OK, here's my point. The original R/R, at least on my bike, senses voltage through the headlight circuit. But, on my bike, when the headlight is on it causes a voltage drop of 2V. The R/R reacts and sends 15+ volts back to the battery. Zinfed states the Mosfit R/R is wired direct to the battery. That's why it doesn't over charge. Wire the original R/R direct to the battery and it will probably perform the same as a Mosfit. As I've mentioned before, I think the wiring from the headlight relay, through the harness, to the bulb is too small to carry the load causing a voltage drop and fooling the R/R that the battery needs help. Now, I know this is the case on my bike but I remind you, The V7 might be different. But how hard is it to check?

Todd mentioned, and I haven't had the time (yet, didn't have the need till this morning) to verify that there is no separate battery voltage sensing circuit.

However, if that's a mistake I completely understand your point. I've seen similar voltage drops in the circuits of other bikes (like my B11 that consistently showed lower voltage at the dashboard than at the battery).

King, what's the year and model?  I'm really curious if this is a bad batch of R/Rs or is it a wiring problem like Guzzidad is wondering.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 01, 2016, 09:01:01 PM
Below is an extract from the 2008 V7 schematic.  The same circuit is also depicted on the 2010-2013 V7 schematic.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-su0a5z8wwuM/VtZRwpXvKnI/AAAAAAAAHyE/oMw9p_s_A50/s800-Ic42/V7R%252520rec-reg%252520circuit.jpg)
The R/R output is as direct to the battery as possible.  It doesn't appear to have a voltage sense circuit.  Looking at the connectors on the R/R, the pins are robust spade connectors, capable of large currents.  In my mind, that confirms that the wiring is to provide a heavy gauge low resistance wiring path from the R/R to the bike's circuitry to power the motorcycle (and to charge the battery).

I'd be suspicious of the V7II OEM R/R.  It's a black box compared to the aftermarket Shindengen R/R (is it series or shunt? Who makes it?).  There is good evidence to suggest the latest OEM regulator is also regulating excessively high (>15V).  Also, has anyone confirmed that the plugs are compatible between the two OEM versions?

If I was to replace the R/R on my V7, (1) I'd buy the Shindengen SH847 (higher current rating of 50A which gets derated by 30% when wiring in a 2-wire single phase alternator), (2) make a jumper cable to adapt the OEM spade connector to the Furukawa QLW connector used on the SH847, (3) wire the R/R directly to the battery and bypass the OEM wiring but keep the connection back to the 30A main fuse, and (4) make an adapter plate to mount the R/R.  But that's just me; others can choose their own solution.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 01, 2016, 11:43:04 PM
Series regulation instead of shunt?  That just sounds better.  Any source for the 847?

I have a 2016 V7 II with the new regulator.  About 13.6v at idle and 14.7 at 3K.  If I'm going to the trouble of replacing the RR, I wouldn't use one.  There are certainly better out there.  Are the plugs the same?  Dunno.  Can't see 'em.

The alternator is a stator type/ permanent magnet its more likely to be damaged powering a resistive circuit than an open one.
shunt is generally preferred for this reason.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 02, 2016, 01:33:18 AM
Regarding that kit with a circuit breaker, I don't see the need to add any more circuit protection, as the bike should already have the required circuit protections, no?


It's a complete kit including replacement wiring to the battery which some cusomers will need. Circuit brakers react quicker than fuses and can be reset.
It's best to replace everything and use the circuit braker unless you have good reason not to. The wiring is very similar to the OEM in this case. On other bikes the OEM wiring may be different and relate to diferent OEM r/r design.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Zinfan on March 02, 2016, 01:54:58 AM

Zin, I'm under the impression others have wired the Mosfit into the OEM wiring. I guess we should sort that question out next, I.E. which is better and why.

I remember at the time I bought my kit the owner of the site saying that his harness wiring was superior to most OEM harnesses and highly recommended using his to go directly to the battery.  I see he does have some "Crimp and Go" kits that you just cut off the OEM harness connectors and add his in.  It seemed to be worthwhile to go for the direct route using his wires for the best chance of success for me.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Muzz on March 02, 2016, 02:50:55 AM
All this carry on got me to go and check out the Breva 750, which incidentally, does for some reason have a high parasitic drain. battery will go dead flat in a month. When on it's sabbatical over winter I charge it with a smart charger every 3 weeks, rather than have it on a trickle charge. Works for me. <shrug>

After 24 hours from the last run the battery was reading 12.5 volts. A bit low but it is only the second one I have had in the bike over 12 years. Probably 5 years old. On cranking it dropped to just over 10 volts. Ok I guess for an old battery. The biggest difference I see is in the voltage at idle. Someone quoted 13.5 volts for a V711. At 1000rpm mine sat at 11.9, lights on of course. 2000rpm it was 13.2 and at about 3000 is was about 13.6. The latter figure is about what I would expect after cranking an old battery. Did not check it when I got home but I would expect it to be about 14volts as the battery charged up.

The over 15 volts being quoted to my mind is indeed excessive. With a good fully charged battery my understanding on a car at least, is that the voltage would top out at 14.4 to 14.8.

I am now in the  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: phase of this thread to see what transpires. I wish you guys all the best.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 02, 2016, 06:39:13 AM
I remember at the time I bought my kit the owner of the site saying that his harness wiring was superior to most OEM harnesses and highly recommended using his to go directly to the battery.  I see he does have some "Crimp and Go" kits that you just cut off the OEM harness connectors and add his in.  It seemed to be worthwhile to go for the direct route using his wires for the best chance of success for me.

If you use the kit wiring you get a circuit braker and avoid cutting OEM harness. I'd do that, make it easier to remove at a later date if you want to swap your bike and want to keep your after market r/r
If you do that tape up the oem connector so it wont get dirt in it.
note some batteries have double terminals which helps.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 02, 2016, 07:23:14 AM
I dunno, I hate adding another loom. I'd rather use the OEM wiring. It's a neater solution.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Zinfan on March 02, 2016, 10:49:08 AM
If you use the kit wiring you get a circuit braker and avoid cutting OEM harness. I'd do that, make it easier to remove at a later date if you want to swap your bike and want to keep your after market r/r
If you do that tape up the oem connector so it wont get dirt in it.

This is what I did.  Of course if Kev M decides to splice into the existing harness the results could be used to answer Guzzidad's thoughts that it might be the harness and not the R/R causing the overcharging issue.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Zinfan on March 02, 2016, 10:53:30 AM
Not related to the R/R but would it show me anything if I turned up my heated grips, plugged in the heated jacket set to high and put the headlight on high beam and measured charging voltage?  Just as a check of the bikes electrical capacity and if I'm exceeding it?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 02, 2016, 10:54:28 AM
This is what I did.  Of course if Kev M decides to splice into the existing harness the results could be used to answer Guzzidad's thoughts that it might be the harness and not the R/R causing the overcharging issue.

That would be an interesting test and maybe we should go that route just to see.

I do have to wonder who are the 7 that have responded to the poll so far that their 1TB V7s (not V7IIs) are testing in range and whether or not that is still with the original regulator. Because if the answer is YES (OEM regulator) one would think it's not the wiring).

That said, I believe Guzzidad's question about the wiring was regarding a sensing circuit that we are being told isn't used by this regulator so that particular portion of the theory is moot.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 02, 2016, 11:25:14 AM
Not related to the R/R but would it show me anything if I turned up my heated grips, plugged in the heated jacket set to high and put the headlight on high beam and measured charging voltage?  Just as a check of the bikes electrical capacity and if I'm exceeding it?
I think if you fully charged on a tender then went for a ride with your heated kit for an hour then on return reconnected the tender see how long to get battery back up to charge. If it takes a while buy the mosfet r/r then retry the same heated journey. I would hope you'd get an extra 25w with the mosfet and not drain your battery.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: SeanF on March 02, 2016, 11:31:16 AM
I'll be replacing the Reg/Rec in my '14 v7 Special tonight with a FH020AA, using the existing wiring.
I am seeing 15.2v at the battery terminals at 3k+ rpm.
Will post results.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 02, 2016, 11:43:37 AM
I used the existing wiring when I installed the Mosfet unit this weekend.
I ran a 10ga wire from the VR to the two output wires in the harness. Same on the negative side
This method reuses the bike's original fuse
All is well with steady voltage of 14.2 volts
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 02, 2016, 11:46:05 AM
Changing fuses to circuit breakers isn't a good idea for this application. bwdik

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: SeanF on March 02, 2016, 11:47:19 AM
I used the existing wiring when I installed the Mosfet unit this weekend.
I ran a 10ga wire from the VR to the two output wires in the harness. Same on the negative side
This method reuses the bike's original fuse
All is well with steady voltage of 14.2 volts

 :cool:  :thumb:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 02, 2016, 11:48:59 AM
If you wire the VR directly to the battery don't forget to also connect the stock wire harness red and black wires to the battery to power bike's systems
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Bravo Sierra on March 02, 2016, 04:58:30 PM
Decided to see what my 2013 V7 Special was doing, DVM reads ~15.2 across the entire RPM range. Bike was ridden enough in the lat few days that the battery should be charged. This was a new battery last spring.  :sad:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 02, 2016, 05:25:58 PM
I really wish I knew if these bikes left the factory that way or if it was something that happened over time with corrosion on grounds or just internal wear/failure of the RR.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 02, 2016, 05:35:36 PM
Electronics don't wear out as does mechanics.  Corrosion on connections would lower the voltage at the battery under operation so that's not a contributing factor.  I suspect the R/R are manufactured and shipped that way.

I'd be interested to see if the circuit card can be accessed and components changed to alter the output voltage.  Any pictures of the rear of the OEM regulator available?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 02, 2016, 06:03:27 PM
Electronics don't wear out as does mechanics.  Corrosion on connections would lower the voltage at the battery under operation so that's not a contributing factor.  I suspect the R/R are manufactured and shipped that way.

I'd be interested to see if the circuit card can be accessed and components changed to alter the output voltage.  Any pictures of the rear of the OEM regulator available?

They may not wear out per se, but certainly you see heat and load related failures.

As for resistance, are you saying that increased resistance on the ground circuit would cause a DECREASE in output voltage???

I'll be happy to take pics of my regulator once I get around to removing it, maybe this weekend.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 02, 2016, 06:16:17 PM
Corrosion on positive lead contact will introduce resistance to current flow.  This would result in a voltage dropped across it (and great heat that could melt the plastic).  There will be a drop in voltage if  measured relative to ground.  That means the voltage at the regulator output would be greater than at the battery.  What will not happen is for the voltage at the battery to be greater than the voltage at the regulator output as a result of corrosion.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 02, 2016, 08:13:41 PM
Not needed.  The power loops back from the battery connection (the big red one).
Isn't that what I said? Maybe I have to work on my communication skills
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: SeanF on March 02, 2016, 10:35:58 PM
I'll be replacing the Reg/Rec in my '14 v7 Special tonight with a FH020AA, using the existing wiring.
I am seeing 15.2v at the battery terminals at 3k+ rpm.
Will post results.

14.3 volts at 3k rpm. Happy day.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 03, 2016, 05:54:03 AM
I'd be interested to see if the circuit card can be accessed and components changed to alter the output voltage.  Any pictures of the rear of the OEM regulator available?

I would bet that they are potted inside the housing as is standard for these types of modules, and thus, nothing is accessible.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 03, 2016, 07:24:33 AM
Corrosion on positive lead contact will introduce resistance to current flow.  This would result in a voltage dropped across it (and great heat that could melt the plastic).  There will be a drop in voltage if  measured relative to ground.  That means the voltage at the regulator output would be greater than at the battery.  What will not happen is for the voltage at the battery to be greater than the voltage at the regulator output as a result of corrosion.
I agree

Another thought: actually a suitable resistor on the +ve out from the R/R would drop the voltage BUT I think that would put strain on the stator and also lower the watts deliverer to the bikes electical system. So I dont think thats a good idea? but am i sure? no.

It does seem that the body of the OEM R/R does not give a good ground. If there was a bad earth to the R/R what would happen? I think the result would be the same as a bad +ve? :embarrassed:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: vstevens on March 03, 2016, 09:21:35 AM
Hate to
 :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu
(I was looking for a good excuse to use that emoticon)

I think my voltage regulator is also overcharging.  I did vote on the poll but I want a redo.  i voted its just fine... but it is now showing signs it isn't. 

A few months ago, I complained about some electrical 'niggles', the bike would just die... everything die... when riding.   After sharing this on the forum and receiving lots of suggestions, I went to work checking as many electrical connections as I could find.  Turns out the cable connecting to the battery terminal under the red rubber boot was kinked at an angle with the securing bolt only touching the top lip of the cable connector.  I fugure that everytime the bike hit a bad bump the battery cable temporarily was jostled and lost connection.  That was an easy fix... and an indication of poor setup by the original dealer (not the dealer I bought it from... they got it from another dealer). 

Well now, I checked the voltages across the battery terminals and charging voltage is above 15 volts.  Don't know how much cause the meter I have (a cheapee) only goes to 15 volts - I need to buy a decent multimeter, I know.   :embarrassed:

I wonder if the dealer might put in for a warranty claim.... or if its worth the time and trouble if the replacement is the same R/R.  AND, would replacing the r/r void the current warranty?  Perhaps those with warranty should wait until it expires?  Just some thoughts from a non-electrician.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 03, 2016, 10:28:40 AM
A warranty, or lack thereof is not a good reason to leave a defect or broken part in place. If something is covered by a warranty, that doesn't mean you must get it repaired or replaced under warranty nor that you should wait for the fix to be done under warranty.

If something needs to be fixed or replaced, best to do it and worry about warranty as a secondary consideration, depending on what it is. It is always your responsibility to mitigate damages if possible and practical.

You might replace a battery right away because you need one and can't really wait or get to a place that sells that brand. If the shop is close by, why not use the warranty if it applies? Common sense comes into play.

Pay a $1000 out of pocket or use the warranty? It's only money but it is your money, no one else's.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 03, 2016, 11:51:45 AM
I agree

Another thought: actually a suitable resistor on the +ve out from the R/R would drop the voltage BUT I think that would put strain on the stator and also lower the watts deliverer to the bikes electical system. So I dont think thats a good idea? but am i sure? no.

It does seem that the body of the OEM R/R does not give a good ground. If there was a bad earth to the R/R what would happen? I think the result would be the same as a bad +ve? :embarrassed:

A resister on the output of the R/R would not work at all, as it would still work to achieve the same voltage at the reference terminal.   A resister divider on the reference terminal could be used to raise the output voltage, but, I'm not sure of a clean way to reduce it.

The best thing is to just replace the VR with one that does the job properly.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 03, 2016, 12:06:37 PM
Glad I checked my wiring:

(http://s12.postimg.org/ix8axc2e5/IMG_20160303_180051.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6ilix0avt/full/)



(http://s11.postimg.org/cdwy2msjn/IMG_20160303_172244.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/e5pwxjbwf/full/)
screen shot windows 7 (http://postimage.org/app.php)







Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Muzz on March 03, 2016, 02:04:54 PM
So I got back from my ride on the Breva yesterday (but of course I had to stop it to use the key to lift the seat) and checked the voltages on my rather old battery.

The voltage was now sitting at 13.05, up from the 12.5 obtained after a 24 hour rest. Started it and ran for a few minutes at about 2700 RPM. Voltage remained stable at around 13.7 volts. Thought it might have been slightly higher but as the charging system has never given any problems I am not too worried.

A lot lower than the 15+ volts that you guys are getting.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 03, 2016, 02:20:30 PM
So I got back from my ride on the Breva yesterday (but of course I had to stop it to use the key to lift the seat) and checked the voltages on my rather old battery.

The voltage was now sitting at 13.05, up from the 12.5 obtained after a 24 hour rest. Started it and ran for a few minutes at about 2700 RPM. Voltage remained stable at around 13.7 volts. Thought it might have been slightly higher but as the charging system has never given any problems I am not too worried.

A lot lower than the 15+ volts that you guys are getting.

You wont get over 13.7 volts when the engine is off. Your battery should slowly deplete from 13.7 to 12.7 but 12.5 is likely fine.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Muzz on March 03, 2016, 02:26:33 PM
13.7 with the engine running, 13.05 at rest.

Thought it might have hit 14 but I had used the starter a couple of minutes before.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 03, 2016, 02:37:28 PM
During all the tests some are doing, are you just running the engines with the bike sitting for minutes at a time at 2500 rpms and higher?

I could be wrong but if you run  the engine at a few thousand RPMS for say 2-4 minutes, bike stationary, that seems like a long time to do something like that.

Seems like it would be better or just easier to connect a voltmeter to the battery and tape the thing to a handlebar or tank and ride it.

No doubt, someone will correct this.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 03, 2016, 03:01:01 PM
During all the tests some are doing, are you just running the engines with the bike sitting for minutes at a time at 2500 rpms and higher?

I could be wrong but if you run  the engine at a few thousand RPMS for say 2-4 minutes, bike stationary, that seems like a long time to do something like that.

Seems like it would be better or just easier to connect a voltmeter to the battery and tape the thing to a handlebar or tank and ride it.

No doubt, someone will correct this.

I measured cold at tickover, raise revs for a second or so to 3k and check. Go where I'd be going, come back and checked again same way.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 03, 2016, 04:31:39 PM
Pikipiki's wire damage is scary and its on the alternator side?
Would this indicate an excessive draw/demand from the VR?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pocphil on March 03, 2016, 04:55:56 PM
Ok, checked 4 bikes today.
2012 V7 Classic 21,000 miles:  Idle 12.75  Revving 14.60
2013 V7 Special 1200 miles:   Idle 13.45  Revving 14.72
2013 V7 Racer 4900 miles: (Rexxer Maps) Idle 12.65  Revving 14.29
2015 V7 Stone Mk2 240 miles: Idle 12.80 Revving 14.20

All testing done with a harbor freight multi meter that was free with a coupon.

So far I haven't found a hot one, but I'm gonna be keeping my eyes open and test everyone that comes through here.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 03, 2016, 05:17:19 PM
A resister on the output of the R/R would not work at all, as it would still work to achieve the same voltage at the reference terminal.   A resister divider on the reference terminal could be used to raise the output voltage, but, I'm not sure of a clean way to reduce it.

The best thing is to just replace the VR with one that does the job properly.
Agreed.  The resistor would not work well because the amount of voltage it dropped would be proportional to the current being drawn, which would vary dependant on the load.  The resistor would have to be sized to the power it dissipates which is almost equal to the output of the alternator, around 300W.  Have you seen the size of a 300W resistor?


Hmm, Pikipiki's regulator looks to be potted.  Too bad; can't access the electronics to see if the output is adjustable.  The only solution is replacing the unit with one that works.  The burnt wire is a result of poor conductivity due to a bad crimp connection, not due to excessive current draw.  If you replace the regulator, pull the contacts from the alternator connector and solder the crimps.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 03, 2016, 05:54:54 PM
Ok, checked 4 bikes today.
2012 V7 Classic 21,000 miles:  Idle 12.75  Revving 14.60
2013 V7 Special 1200 miles:   Idle 13.45  Revving 14.72
2013 V7 Racer 4900 miles: (Rexxer Maps) Idle 12.65  Revving 14.29
2015 V7 Stone Mk2 240 miles: Idle 12.80 Revving 14.20

All testing done with a harbor freight multi meter that was free with a coupon.

So far I haven't found a hot one, but I'm gonna be keeping my eyes open and test everyone that comes through here.

THANKS for testing and posting!  :thumb:

No pattern emerging.

Which suggests it's not just a bad batch of RRs, but at the same time also suggests the OEM unit isn't necessarily bad.

Hmmmm.


Edit - how about mileage?

Do most of the failed ones have more miles on them? (I realize one of Jay's that tested bad is still pretty new).
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Zinfan on March 03, 2016, 06:03:10 PM
I believe my 13 Stone had around 6k miles when I changed it out.  Definitely less than 10k.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Vagrant on March 03, 2016, 06:20:08 PM
Ok, checked 4 bikes today.
2012 V7 Classic 21,000 miles:  Idle 12.75  Revving 14.60
2013 V7 Special 1200 miles:   Idle 13.45  Revving 14.72
2013 V7 Racer 4900 miles: (Rexxer Maps) Idle 12.65  Revving 14.29
2015 V7 Stone Mk2 240 miles: Idle 12.80 Revving 14.20

All testing done with a harbor freight multi meter that was free with a coupon.

So far I haven't found a hot one, but I'm gonna be keeping my eyes open and test everyone that comes through here.



I used one of them to check my TPS on the old EV last year. radio shack good one said .514 the free one said .650 or so. it went into the recycle bin. just saying!
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 03, 2016, 06:42:00 PM
Do most of the failed ones have more miles on them? (I realize one of Jay's that tested bad is still pretty new).

My 2014 V7S has just over 1,500 miles, and tested at 15.50 V.

My 2013 V7R has about 9,000 miles, and tested at 15.30 V.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 03, 2016, 11:05:26 PM

I'd be interested to see if the circuit card can be accessed and components changed to alter the output voltage.  Any pictures of the rear of the OEM regulator available?

The components are sealed in what seems to be a kind of rubber.
If you had time you could pick it out, it would be a destructive exercise and would take a while.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 04, 2016, 12:28:39 AM
Agreed.  The resistor would not work well because the amount of voltage it dropped would be proportional to the current being drawn, which would vary dependant on the load.  The resistor would have to be sized to the power it dissipates which is almost equal to the output of the alternator, around 300W.  Have you seen the size of a 300W resistor?


Hmm, Pikipiki's regulator looks to be potted.  Too bad; can't access the electronics to see if the output is adjustable.  The only solution is replacing the unit with one that works.  The burnt wire is a result of poor conductivity due to a bad crimp connection, not due to excessive current draw.  If you replace the regulator, pull the contacts from the alternator connector and solder the crimps.

The wire damage does not relate to the r/r its a badly crimped wire as you said, I think my r/r is jus normal high im going to check it propper when I get wires fixed.    wires my bikes 8 years old so im more likely to have that kind of issue than the low milage bought new guys.

A resistor on the output is a poor solution because of what you say it means the voltage the bike gets varies dependent on current draw but such a resistor would only be around 5-10w. I had such a resistor on my input in the form of a badly crimped wire. had that bad crimp been on the output from the r/r I have done a voltage check on the output and got around 14.6 v and though everything is perfect.

The main draws on the electrical system dont vary by more than 100% (think) so a resistor could drop between 0.2 and 0.4v depending on other loads.

assuming battery is ok and not going to guzzle all the charge because confusing wierdness might happen if the system is overloaded:
15v-15.4v working as designed and sub optimal
15.4 up its broken.
varying voltages (more than 0.5v) something is wrong
under 15v on an OEM r/r check wiring.

I think with perfect wiring and a good battery these r/r will all deliver just over 15v with lights on or off and at any rpm over about 1500. Dirty and frayed crimps and worn out switches are not uncommon, I think the slightly high output of the r/r is designed in as it was the result of cheap off the shelf resistor size and it added in a little tollerance for such as bad connections (the other cheap option being near 14v I looked at some r/r projects and they say use this diode get 13.5v use this 15v in between would be custom component or more circui I guess).
halving battery life from about 6years to 3 probably wasnt considered as a big deal when a couple of bucks could be saved.

ps: electrics confuses my head. I understand one bit but by then I forget another, then I remember what I had worked out but forget the reason.
Its all so counter intuitive. Thanks for helping me along.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 04, 2016, 01:20:08 AM
Series regulation instead of shunt?  That just sounds better.  Any source for the 847?
Series is better.  Comparison of FH012 shunt versus Compu-fire series (http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/4066862/ssr-vs-fh012aa-pdf-may-31-2012-10-20-pm-903k?da=y)

847 available through Roadster Cycle (http://www.roadstercycle.com/#SH847_SERIES_RR_KITS_ARE_NOW_AVAILABLE_) and through Suzuki as OEM #32800-31J00.

The Compu-fire 55150 (https://compufire.com/compu-fire-55150-black-38-amp-single-phase-voltage-regulator-for-98-02-big-twin-harley-reg-models.html) single phase series regulator might be an interesting alternative.  It's higher current capacity than the FH020AA and price competitive with the SH847 and the kits from Roadster Cycle.  Available through Amazon.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 04, 2016, 07:32:23 AM
assuming battery is ok and not going to guzzle all the charge because confusing wierdness might happen if the system is overloaded:
15v-15.4v working as designed and sub optimal
15.4 up its broken.
varying voltages (more than 0.5v) something is wrong
under 15v on an OEM r/r check wiring.

Not for nothing, but the OEM service manual says 13-15 is normal.

Most tech references I've read (which are written around lead acid, not AGM batteries which seem to tolerate a higher charge longer) suggest 14.4 is acceptable and much higher is no desired.

Some AGM service references seem to suggest up to 14.8 is acceptable on AGM.

Where are you getting that 15-15.4 should be acceptable and why?

And are you suggesting someone getting 15.1-15.4 shouldn't replace their RR?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 04, 2016, 10:18:33 AM
It looks like a $60 VR for a 98 to 02 HD big twin will work.
Appears to be a shunt type and single phase :bike-037:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 04, 2016, 11:38:53 AM
Thanks for that.  Do we know if the SH847 will work in a two phase system?
The SH847 will work in a single phase system (two-wire alternator) but it was designed for use in a three-phase Delta system (three-wire alternator).  Consequently, one has to derate the current capacity of the device by about 30% to account for the lack of use of one of the bridge rectifying diodes.  Thus the 50A max current capacity of the SH847 for a three-phase system translates to 30A max current capacity for a single-phase system.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 04, 2016, 12:19:24 PM
The recommended limitation for charging LiFePO4 batteries, such as Shorai, is 3.65V per cell. For a 12V vehicle system this equates to a 4 cell battery x 3.65V =  14.6V. According to battery manufacturers, LiFePO4 will tolerate a charging voltage up to 3.70V per cell (14.8V) with a very slight degradation in lifespan of the battery. Lead acid batteries, including flooded cell and AGM, have an optimal charge rate of 3.65-3.70V per cell (14.6V-14.8V) as with LiFePO4.  Absolute maximum tolerances for lead acid batteries are possibly 0.2V higher than LiFePO4 at 3.85V per cell, for a 4-cell battery = 15.4V but will seriously degrade the life of the battery.

You're confusing me with 4-cell LiFePo batteries in this discussion.

and wouldn't 3.7 volts per cell = 22.2 volts on a standard 6-cell lead acid or AGM?

Everything I've researched in the past week or so (because of this) suggests that most traditional lead acid battery manufacturers recommend 14.4V as max regulated charge rate by modern automotive/cycle charge systems.

A few sources specifically cite AGMs as sometimes benefiting (especially if deep cycling) as high as 14.8.

And again, even MG suggest 13-15 is considered in spec, even 15.1 SHOULD mean an RR is operating out of spec according to their own service manuals (meaning would qualify for warranty replacement).

I guess I'm wondering

A: Why so many seem to be testing right at 15.4 +/- 0.1v ?
B: Why Pik seems to think 15.1-15.4 should be considered ok?
C: If Pik would keep his RR if it was testing at 15.1-15.4?

I do understand that traditional wet lead acid or AGM batteries CAN tolerate higher charge loads when discharged, but for what amount of time. And since the V7 charging system doesn't seem to use a sensing circuit to reduce the charge once the battery is topped up, why should we risk higher charging rates than 14.4-14.8?

Do my questions make sense or am I missing something here?

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 04, 2016, 01:20:26 PM
what I think and I may be wrong, for the milage most owners do 15-15.4v will see your battery still last the warantee period of 2 years. 14.4 might highlight minor electical problems like bad earths  that would otherwise be warantee claims. A lot of bike owners dont even keep there bikes 2 years. V7 is a euro A2 bike.
what you done Kev is fit the elecrical system eqivilent of Ohlins. A known quantity built to a high specification. now you know exactly what voltage you should get. OEM is cheap I tried to look how to build an r/r (I'm wierd like that) and found you get zener diodes marked BZX55C13 and BZX55C15 for 13v and 15v data sheet gave range of about 0.5v like these ere not precision bits? now I was probably jumping to conclusions but i thought the 14 useful one for a simple circuit is not there? now before we get in a rage how guzzi sold us crap, some mopeds dont even or not so long ago didnt have regulators, only recifiers so flat out might go 17v into tiny battery. Older Ducatis and guzzis suffered bad earths and voltage drops.
I think max just over 15v will be hard on your battery like stock shocks are hard on the ass but I doubt it would lead to ecu and other component failure.

I think the change for better r/r is safe not sorry and do not disagree with your decision to swap.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 04, 2016, 02:01:16 PM
For the most part that all makes sense.

I mean, I could see why they might have wanted to keep charge current up to prevent other problems (like bad grounds).

But it's not like ALL bikes are testing above 15. Some presumably stock bikes are testing fine (see Pocphil from ClevelandMoto's earlier post):

Ok, checked 4 bikes today.
2012 V7 Classic 21,000 miles:  Idle 12.75  Revving 14.60
2013 V7 Special 1200 miles:   Idle 13.45  Revving 14.72
2013 V7 Racer 4900 miles: (Rexxer Maps) Idle 12.65  Revving 14.29

2015 V7 Stone Mk2 240 miles: Idle 12.80 Revving 14.20

Now I'm not 100% certain the 2012 has the same regulator, and I'm pretty sure the 2015 Stone has a different charging system and regulator (reportedly has 7 wires, and I belive it is a 3-phase with the wet stator).

But if that data is good, that suggests the early 1TB motors (2012-13 in the EU/2013-14 in the US) weren't purposely designed to charge at 15.4.

So WHY are so many testing above 15 (and at about that exact rate, making it SEEM like it was designed to).

I'm not suggesting you (or anyone) has an answer for sure.

But I'm looking for theories that fit better.

I mean, I can accept your theory for why they say 15 is the top end of the in spec range (I could see 14.8 being the original target for this RR).

That said, they DID make a change to a lower output, but 3-phase stator with the wet alternator and maybe overcharging WAS the reason for it).

<shrugs>

Sorry, I guess I still have more questions than answers because I want to know the hows and whys, even though I have made up my mind to replace the RR with an aftermarket replacement at this point.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 04, 2016, 05:01:18 PM
Ok, so I went back and did more homework.  Take a look at this graph (http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/4345-agm-charging):

(http://cdn.freshdesk.com/data/helpdesk/attachments/production/116770/original/VRCIUU.jpg?1328663057)
Ignore the blue line and left-hand scale.  The red line shows the ideal charge for an AGM battery over time, from charging a completely depleted battery on the left through to full charge in the middle to maintenance on the right, at room temperature.  The graph shows that bulk charging should apply voltage across the terminals up to a maximum of 2.45V per cell. For a 12V motorcycle battery, that's 2.45V x 6 cells = 14.7V.  Once fully charged,the voltage should be dropped to 2.3V/cell (13.8V).  Furthermore this charging pattern should be altered for different ambient temperatures.  A modern bench charger with an AGM setting can easily duplicate this ideal curve.

A motorcycle charging system cannot duplicate this ideal charge pattern, so it's regulator has to approximate it by supplying the battery with a constant voltage that averages this curve.  The average voltage should be about 2.37V/cell (14.22V).

A charger putting out more than 15V is potentially destroying the life in the battery.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 04, 2016, 05:25:35 PM

That said, they DID make a change to a lower output, but 3-phase stator with the wet alternator and maybe overcharging WAS the reason for it).
<shrugs>

Over charging is NOT a reason to switch to a lower output alternator.     That is a reason to switch to a better regulator.    Even if the alternator is capable of 1,000 Watts of output, it won't over charge the battery if the regulator does its job and keeps the voltage below 14.7 volts.

Alternator do not produce their rated output (Watts) no matter what, they produce what is drawn by a load.   Now, a permanent magnet alternator will produce a higher VOLTAGE at no load, but, the AMPs drawn will only be what is drawn (and, of course, Watts is Volts X Amps).
The regulator's job is to drop the voltage.    This can be done in a linear fashion much like a linear audio amplifier, where the power dissipated in the regulator is the total load current (AMPs) X the voltage drop across the regulator, which is the alternator output voltage minus the regulated voltage (preferably around 14.4 volts).    Now, the output voltage of the alternator will be highest when the load is lightest, and will be lowest when the most load is being draw.  When at maximum output, it is likely that it might not even be 14.4, and the regulator can then drop the voltage the least (still, usually about 0.5 volts or more).

So, say the load on the alternator (after the regulator) is loaded lightly, around 150 watts, and it's unregulated voltage is 21 volts.     If the regulated output is 14 Volts (for easy math), the current being drawn is 150 watts / 14 volts = 10.7 AMPs.     The voltage drop across the regulator would be 7 Volts, this the power dissipated in regulator is 10.7 watts * 7 volts or about 75 watts.    At full load of 380 watts (about 27 amps @ 14 volts regulator output), the alternator output is likely only about 15 volts.     The drop across the regulator would be 1 volt.   The power dissipated across the regulator would be 1 volt * 27 amps = 27 watts.

All of this assumes a linear regulator.    Do we know that these regulators are linear, or could they be switching regulators.

The power supplies that I deal with in the control systems for industrial equipment, and also those used in most electronic devices these days are what is known as switching power supplies (and have switching regulators in them).

Without going into the theory operation (I can if you want me to), switching regulators are wonderful, because they drop the voltage while dissipating much less power.    They actually have the capability of drawing a lower amount of  amps at a higher voltage from the source (alternator in the case of a vehicle), and outputting a higher current at a lower voltage.   These are more efficient, because much less power is wasted as heat.     There are even switching regulators known as buck-boost regulators that can step up the voltage (output current would then be less than input current).

So -- my question is, what type of regulators are used on the V7?

And, what type are used on other makes of bikes, and the alternatives suggested in this thread?





Sorry, I guess I still have more questions than answers because I want to know the hows and whys, even though I have made up my mind to replace the RR with an aftermarket replacement at this point.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 04, 2016, 05:52:55 PM
Just an observation, basically, there are:

Numerous different testing procedures
Numerous different types of voltmeters
Batteries of varying age, condition and state of charge
Wiring of varying age, condition
Many different sources as to what excessive charging voltage is or is not
Speculation as to whether batteries have been damaged or not and if so, why
Many opinions of what voltage is ok, what is not
Some fretting and concerns over 1/10ths of a volt

all conducted by different people with no consistent guidelines as how to do any of it.

Maybe some coordination and standardization is in order?
 :popcorn:

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Guzzidad on March 04, 2016, 08:57:15 PM
   And after seven pages of discussion and theory I have yet to see if anyone has just tried, as I have suggested, to disconnect the headlight bulb and then check regulation. Works on my bike but interested if the V7 reacts the same way. I really want to know because a V7 may be in my near future.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 05, 2016, 01:25:15 AM
   And after seven pages of discussion and theory I have yet to see if anyone has just tried, as I have suggested, to disconnect the headlight bulb and then check regulation. Works on my bike but interested if the V7 reacts the same way. I really want to know because a V7 may be in my near future.
sorry to add more speculation, some bikes have an r/r with a voltage sense wire, this is usually wired through the ignition switch. If your headlight I wired through ignition then removing the bulb could have an effect on the r/r output.
I would like to test v7 r/r with different loads, I just have not got around to it.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 05, 2016, 01:30:51 AM
Fwiw Jay is running an LED headlight on one or both of his V7s that tested basically the same as mine +/- 0.1V
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 05, 2016, 03:18:27 AM
One more bit of confusion:

Alternator = 270w a non mosfet R/R I understand will always use 5-10% of power on its shunt circuit.

This is my guess at the power required by the bike:
High beam           55
Rear/Number plate   5
Brake light           21
Instrument panel   2
ECU                           25
Fuel pump           55
Electric ignition           40
Battery Charging    ~

Total without brake light 182w but these are 12v ratings. Whats the headlight using at 15v?

182/12x15= 227.5 , now if you cant get more than 250 from alternator then next to no spare capacity.

So if a mosfet r/r drops the voltage slightly and consumes less power it looks like a good idea if you only have 270w alternator
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 05, 2016, 05:15:59 AM
One more bit of confusion:

Alternator = 270w a non mosfet R/R I understand will always use 5-10% of power on its shunt circuit.

This is my guess at the power required by the bike:
High beam           55
Rear/Number plate   5
Brake light           21
Instrument panel   2
ECU                           25
Fuel pump           55
Electric ignition           40
Battery Charging    ~

Total without brake light 182w but these are 12v ratings. Whats the headlight using at 15v?

182/12x15= 227.5 , now if you cant get more than 250 from alternator then next to no spare capacity.

So if a mosfet r/r drops the voltage slightly and consumes less power it looks like a good idea if you only have 270w alternator

According to SIB 270W is for the 3-phase RR and wet alternator US 2015+ including V7II.

I don't believe any of them have tested out of range, but there are too many posts for me to say without checking them all lol.
I'd be surprised if the V7II VR works with the '13-'14 (USA) models.  Those have a 350W dry alternator whereas the '15 V7 and '16 V7II models have a 270W wet alternator.  I believe the cabling is also different.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 05, 2016, 05:57:55 AM
 Ah that makes sense I had thought the 270 was on the later engine. So the 350 carried over when the engine was changed.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 05, 2016, 06:43:44 AM
Ah that makes sense I had thought the 270 was on the later engine. So the 350 carried over when the engine was changed.

Which engine change, oh do you mean the first change to single TB, then yes.

To be clear (I think I've got this right now):

2012-13 (EU)/2013-14 (US), 1TB V7: 350W, dry, single phase stator and 6-wire RR.

2014+ (EU)/2015+ (US) 1TB V7 & V7II: 270W, wet, 3-phase stator w/ corresponding 7-wire RR

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 05, 2016, 11:05:22 AM
One more bit of confusion:

Alternator = 270w a non mosfet R/R I understand will always use 5-10% of power on its shunt circuit.

This is my guess at the power required by the bike:
High beam           55
Rear/Number plate   5
Brake light           21
Instrument panel   2
ECU                           25
Fuel pump           55
Electric ignition           40
Battery Charging    ~

Total without brake light 182w but these are 12v ratings. Whats the headlight using at 15v?

182/12x15= 227.5 , now if you cant get more than 250 from alternator then next to no spare capacity.

So if a mosfet r/r drops the voltage slightly and consumes less power it looks like a good idea if you only have 270w alternator

Don't forget what got this started, heated gloves not working.

According to the above, the charging system can't keep up without being on the fringe of leaving the battery in a deficit state of charge.

You'll get home, turn off the engine and now the battery will sit there, not fully charged (one of the worst things you can do). The next time you head out, it just gets worse.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: sib on March 05, 2016, 12:55:00 PM
Which engine change, oh do you mean the first change to single TB, then yes.

To be clear (I think I've got this right now):

2012-13 (EU)/2013-14 (US), 1TB V7: 350W, dry, single phase stator and 6-wire RR.

2014+ (EU)/2015+ (US) 1TB V7 & V7II: 270W, wet, 3-phase stator w/ corresponding 7-wire RR
Are you sure about this, Kev?  My V7II wiring diagram shows only two wires connecting the alternator to the regulator.  The regulator actually has a three-terminal connector to the alternator, but only two of the terminals have wires, either at the end going to the alternator or the end going to the regulator (at least on the schematic I'm looking at).  If you're looking at a different schematic, I like to know.  Thanks, Sam
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 05, 2016, 02:15:09 PM
Are you sure about this, Kev?  My V7II wiring diagram shows only two wires connecting the alternator to the regulator.  The regulator actually has a three-terminal connector to the alternator, but only two of the terminals have wires, either at the end going to the alternator or the end going to the regulator (at least on the schematic I'm looking at).  If you're looking at a different schematic, I like to know.  Thanks, Sam
.

No I haven't verified this in person on a V7II (or wet alternator V7) BUT I'm pretty sure at least one owner in the mirror thread on Guzzitech reported that from his bike and not the schematic (which would be an easy literature mistake to make).

Perhaps PokeyJ or someone here can confirm.

NP - the OP that started this was over-charging and the presumption was an over-voltage protection circuit to protect the gloves and wearer (perhaps from possible burns). The OP's same gloves work normally on his Vespa.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 05, 2016, 02:45:38 PM
SIB, from Guzzitech:
Quote from: vagrant, post: 115016, member: 1662
HOLD THE PRESSES! the 2015 and 16 have 7 wires. the white plug has 3 big yellow ones not 2.  About 12 gauge. the black has 2 red with white stripe and 2 solid green. my guess 14 gauge.
other things I have seen compared to a 2013 are different rear shock mfg. with totally different springs and one adjusting color. air filter is under the seat with I think 4 screws to hold on cover similar to a Stelvio. at least it shows the MFG is making some changes for the better.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: swordds on March 05, 2016, 03:13:17 PM
The OP probably gave up on the thread after page three and figured he would no longer need heated gloves because summer would arrive before any conclusions could be drawn here. That is what I love about this forum!  Ask for some simple thoughts on something like using an open trailer to bring home a new bike on salted roads and you're liable to end up with name calling and rock throwing and fist fights and who knows what else!  This is more fun than a good book :-).
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 05, 2016, 03:20:38 PM
Regarding the heated gloves, the figures I used above were a bit of a guess but some alternate figures can be found below although I dont trust these because if you went by these ones a V7II with abs would require more power than the alternator puts out? ABS must use a good few watts? Im guessing some stuff has been getting more efficient recently and lower power alternator is about saving power too. whatever the case theres not going to be any excess power for gloves.
http://www.powerlet.com/learningCenter/excessCapacity (http://www.powerlet.com/learningCenter/excessCapacity)
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 05, 2016, 03:26:01 PM
Been doing some soldering
as my white connetor was damaged by heat from poor connection
(http://s12.postimg.org/3ngsvx48t/IMG_20160305_212219.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/qc5zvhlmh/full/)
image upload no limit (http://postimage.org/)
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: swordds on March 05, 2016, 03:50:24 PM
 OK, so I have transferred the plug for my heated gloves from my Suzuki TU250X to my V7II and even though it is 76 degrees here tonight when I ride my bike to the coast for dinner I will wear my heated gloves and will let you know if they worked when I get home.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 05, 2016, 03:55:27 PM
OK, so I have transferred the plug for my heated gloves from my Suzuki TU250X to my V7II and even though it is 76 degrees here tonight when I ride my bike to the coast for dinner I will wear my heated gloves and will let you know if they worked when I get home.
Are they thermostatically controlled?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 05, 2016, 05:33:27 PM
arent we playing a little fast and loose with ohms law here.  power consumed is the same regardless of voltage (otherwise my headlight would get brighter from 12v to 15v.  So 55W headlamp at 15 volts draws less current. In your example you have the currents the same at 12 v AND 15 v.  I think i'm correct.  I've been fooling with this calc for 5 minutes and is only P=IV :boozing:
If what you were saying were correct there would be no difference between a 12v bulb and a mains bulb they would be inter changable.
Bulbs have resistance, 55w is the rating at 12v.
v=ir i=v/r p=iv, admittedly as the filament gets hotter that does effect the resistance which may increase slightly. bulbs and heating elements will use more power at higher voltage.
The point you make though may be correct for the ecu and the ignition system and other sophisticated components, it may be true for led lights because leds seem to be either on or off?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 05, 2016, 05:50:01 PM
If what you were saying were correct there would be no difference between a 12v bulb and a mains bulb they would be inter changable.
Bulbs have resistance, 55w is the rating at 12v.
v=ir i=v/r p=iv, admittedly as the filament gets hotter that does effect the resistance which may increase slightly. bulbs and heating elements will use more power at higher voltage.
The point you make though may be correct for the ecu and the ignition system and other sophisticated components, it may be true for led lights because leds seem to be either on or off?

Actually, most LEDs made for 12 vdc system can operate within a pretty wide range , often from single digit voltage up to about 30 vdc.

Many new LEDs are also dimmable so they will consume more or less current depending on how much voltage gets to the LED.

Take those LED lights they make for cars, driving and such type of lights. They operate up to 30 vdc and don't get brighter with an increase of voltage from 12 to 30. They don't consume the same current at 30 vdc as if they are at 12 vdc. To be clear, they wouldn't draw 1.0 amp at 30 vdc but would at 12 vdc.

This is why measuring volts only gives you only a partial answer to most questions.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 05, 2016, 06:26:36 PM
The charactaristics of Led lights is way beyond me,

For incandecant

(http://www.lamptech.co.uk/Images/Illustrations/IN%20Nomograph.jpg)

The point I was trying to make: alternator generates watts, lights and most understandable stuff consume more power if you feed a higher voltage.
I probably should not have presented it as linear relationship
Efficiently regulating voltage prevents wasting watts.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 05, 2016, 10:20:50 PM
Fwiw Jay is running an LED headlight on one or both of his V7s that tested basically the same as mine +/- 0.1V

Both my V7's have LED headlights that draw about 20W on low, and 25W on high beam.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 05, 2016, 10:28:04 PM
Regarding the comments about current drawn as volts go up, yes, heating elements and incandescent lights will draw more amps (and, of course watts) as volts go up.    The incandescent lights will burn much brighter at 15 volts, and also burn out much sooner.

Modern LED headlights have special digital current regulators that use PWD (pulse-width-modulation) to accurately delivery the correct amount of current (amps) to the LEDs over a wide range of input voltage.    Due to the design of these regulators, the LED lamp assembly will draw a consistent amount of power (watts), thus, lower current (amps) at higher volts.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 06, 2016, 11:06:46 AM
The op's problem with the gloves was solved by a VR swap
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: swordds on March 06, 2016, 07:49:59 PM
Are they thermostatically controlled?

Yes, my gloves are thermostatically controlled. I  rode with them on my V7II and they worked great but I couldn't leave them on high for more than 20 minutes because it was in the mid-60s here and they were too hot. I didn't notice any electrical problems or the headlight getting dim and the battery worked fine after using my gloves. Of course this doesn't prove the alternator can handle the load because I only used them for about 50 miles. And now it might not get cold enough to give them a real test until next winter, and by then this thread may be dead.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: swordds on March 06, 2016, 08:09:04 PM
Regarding the heated gloves, the figures I used above were a bit of a guess but some alternate figures can be found below although I dont trust these because if you went by these ones a V7II with abs would require more power than the alternator puts out? ABS must use a good few watts? Im guessing some stuff has been getting more efficient recently and lower power alternator is about saving power too. whatever the case theres not going to be any excess power for gloves.
http://www.powerlet.com/learningCenter/excessCapacity (http://www.powerlet.com/learningCenter/excessCapacity)

Yes, but an additional concern noted was does the V7II alternator have enough excess power to handle additional loads such as gloves. Mine handles my gloves, no problems.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Dofin on March 06, 2016, 09:25:46 PM
New Guzzi owner!!  Long time bike rider, mostly vintage, I like the old stuff.  I have a 2015 V7 Stone, just got it last week gently previously owned 5400 miles.  Already payed for the V7 when I found the over voltage posts here!  So I was concerned about the over voltage.  I had a nice ride yesterday 150 miles, did the voltage checks today!!

Battery at rest   12.56 volts
switch on           12.36 volts
while starting     10.68 volts
1000 rpm          13.10 volts
3000rpm            14.30 volts
4000rpm            14.50  volts

I am relieved!!  that all seems well.  I have learned on this line of questioning that it is very important that I keep an eye on the wiring, connections, and battery condition.  If the wiring or connections appear scorched or slightly heated they need immediate attention to preclude Rectifier/regulator damage.  Insure that battery connections and battery condition is monitored! 

Great to have a forum to visit when I have concerns!  I will get my donation sent in support!  Also will do the poll.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 07, 2016, 09:33:36 AM
How did you get a "good" regulator when even Guzzi specs 15.1 volts?
Is your regulator technically"bad"?
Anyway good for you
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 07, 2016, 10:22:14 AM
New Guzzi owner!!  Long time bike rider, mostly vintage, I like the old stuff.  I have a 2015 V7 Stone, just got it last week gently previously owned 5400 miles.  Already payed for the V7 when I found the over voltage posts here!  So I was concerned about the over voltage.  I had a nice ride yesterday 150 miles, did the voltage checks today!!

Battery at rest   12.56 volts
switch on           12.36 volts
while starting     10.68 volts
1000 rpm          13.10 volts
3000rpm            14.30 volts
4000rpm            14.50  volts

I am relieved!!  that all seems well.  I have learned on this line of questioning that it is very important that I keep an eye on the wiring, connections, and battery condition.  If the wiring or connections appear scorched or slightly heated they need immediate attention to preclude Rectifier/regulator damage.  Insure that battery connections and battery condition is monitored! 

Great to have a forum to visit when I have concerns!  I will get my donation sent in support!  Also will do the poll.

2015?....
and your alternator has 3 yellow wires is three phase and your regulator is different. The issue I with the 6 wire regulators.

Update on refitting my oem regulator after fixing the frayed wire.
Still around 15v across battery terminals actually up 0.1v (im putting that down to cleaning the R/R output connector that was swimming in grease) . (at least mines not 15.4) For sake of it I thought Id measure voltage somewhere else in the circuit. Rear light thats about as far away from the battery and very easy to access the connectors behid the bulb. 14.5v across rear laigh bulb? hmm. I kind of figured it would be less but thought it would only be 0.1-0.2v drop.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 07, 2016, 12:22:58 PM
How did you get a "good" regulator when even Guzzi specs 15.1 volts?
Is your regulator technically"bad"?
Anyway good for you

That's the part of this mystery that just stumps me.

BTW, I found a schematic online today that supposedly is for the Ducati Engergia Regulator Guzzi Part # 32703810 which was used on the N7, B7, and V7C - part of the schematic reads:

Voltage Regulator 15.5 +/- 0.5 V

Go figure.

According to the online parts manuals at Harpers that particular regulator was replaced starting on the 2011 V7R and all dry alternator V7 Stone/Special/Racers with # 883878 which appears to be the one that's giving everyone fits.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: SeanF on March 07, 2016, 12:30:23 PM
New Guzzi owner!!

-snip-

Great to have a forum to visit when I have concerns!  I will get my donation sent in support!  Also will do the poll.

Welcome!  :thumb:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on March 07, 2016, 12:36:06 PM
Welcome!  :thumb:

 :1:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 07, 2016, 05:24:41 PM
That's the part of this mystery that just stumps me.

BTW, I found a schematic online today that supposedly is for the Ducati Engergia Regulator Guzzi Part # 32703810 which was used on the N7, B7, and V7C - part of the schematic reads:

Voltage Regulator 15.5 +/- 0.5 V

Go figure.

According to the online parts manuals at Harpers that particular regulator was replaced starting on the 2011 V7R and all dry alternator V7 Stone/Special/Racers with # 883878 which appears to be the one that's giving everyone fits.

Would the old, pre 2011 regulator be a plug and play solution?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 07, 2016, 06:00:38 PM
Would the old, pre 2011 regulator be a plug and play solution?

AFAIK different input plug. Pins look too narrow.

But like I said, the schematic on Euromotoelectrics claims it was designed for Voltage Regulation 15.5 +/- 0.5V which would seem to defeat the purpose.

UNLESS there was usually about a 1V drop on the major circuits.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 07, 2016, 09:24:18 PM
Kev, Cam & I are going to install PH020AA's on our bikes.
I will be making adapter plates from aluminum (that's aluminium for most of the rest of the world  :wink:) 2x1/4" bar stock.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 08, 2016, 07:34:36 AM
No adapter plate is needed to mount the Mosfet VR.
The stock mounting holes can be easily elongated with a file or rotary cutter, 1/4"
It takes 10 minutes
2 small spacers should be used on the mounting bolts to keep the VR wires away from the front engine cover
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 08, 2016, 08:03:43 AM
No adapter plate is needed to mount the Mosfet VR.
The stock mounting holes can be easily elongated with a file or rotary cutter, 1/4"
It takes 10 minutes
2 small spacers should be used on the mounting bolts to keep the VR wires away from the front engine cover

I THINK the 3 of us are in agreement that we don't want to un-necessarily alter the frame (even in such a minor way).

Plus it gives us more freedom to position the VR just where we want it, not in the way of things like Cam's crashbars, or Jay's Record fairing.

Luckily Jay has a friend with some machining tools.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 08, 2016, 02:00:11 PM
The plate offered by roadster cycle for $20 + shipping is nice
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: O on March 08, 2016, 03:34:00 PM
Just woke up my bike after winter hibernation.  It fired right up after 2 months in the basement without a battery tender or other such device.

I'm seeing 14.2 at idle, and 15.2 at 3-4000 rpm.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 08, 2016, 03:51:51 PM
Just woke up my bike after winter hibernation.  It fired right up after 2 months in the basement without a battery tender or other such device.

I'm seeing 14.2 at idle, and 15.2 at 3-4000 rpm.  Thoughts?

As I've posted on Guzzitech (and probably in this thread, I dunno they're getting big).

MY OPINION is that your bike is operating AT ABOUT what Guzzi intended it to, but that PERSONALLY I'd replace the Regulator.

Here's a rough summary of what my research this past few weeks suggest:

* Many traditional battery and charging system sources suggest 14.4 volts as the idea max long term charging rate for a lead acid battery.
* AGM batteries (like used by the V7s), especially if discharged/deep cycles, can benefit from a slightly higher charging rate and won't be immediately damaged by high 14's / low 15's.
* Yuasa themselves (I'm told they are the manufacturer of the V7 AGM battery) recommends a charging system that puts out 14.4-14.8 volts for their AGM batteries.
* Moto Guzzi states in their service manual for the 2012-14 1TB Stone/Special/Racer (with the single-phase charging system and dry stator) the charging system tests normally if it shows 13.0-15.0 Volts @ 3-5k rpm.**
* Online sources (EuroMotoElectrics) show the regulator for the PREVIOUS generation V7 (N7/B7/V7C) show a replacement regulator that is supposedly set to 15.1 Volts, and even odder, the Ducati Energia regulator schematic they show states "Voltage Regulation 15.5 +/- 0.5V".

**BUT BUT BUT and this the odd thing. The previous generation bikes SEEM to all be testing in the 14.something range, AS DO MOST OF THE CURRENT GENERATION (2015 and later V7 and V7II with the 3-phase charging system and wet stator). It's just the early 1TB motors that seem to be regularly testing in the 15.2-15.5 volt range.

* Todd at Guzzitech claims that he has seen some Cam sensors and ECU's that were damaged by excessive charging rates on the early 1TB motors. HOWEVER I BELIEVE THAT IN EVERY CASE THE REGULATOR HAD FAILED AND WAS SPIKING VOLTAGES INTO THE 16-17 volt range at speed. I have not yet seen a report where damage occurred from the low 15 volt charging rate (other than possibly a shortened battery life, my own battery seems to be showing some signs after 3+ years of diminished capacity next to older batteries in my garage)

Now taking ALL of that into consideration is how I arrived at my opinion that Guzzi for WHATEVER REASON decided this high charging rate was acceptable (my swag is that perhaps the high charge rate would provide better charging in short run urban environments where the V7 might be popular). I don't think I would ever have a problem IF MY REGULATOR CONTINUED TO HOLD VOLTAGES TO THE LOW 15's.

HOWEVER, since a few regulators have failed and allowed dangerously high voltages to damage MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE BITS LIKE THE ECU, and since the current charge rate seems to be damaging by battery (taking possibly years off its life). I HAVE DECIDED TO PROACTIVELY REPLACE MY REGULATOR.

I would advice you to also for these reasons.

YMMV.




Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 08, 2016, 03:57:42 PM
For anyone who has a removed alternator,
Take 2 9v batteries, the small common ones attach these across the yellow wires (18v) input to r/r, attach a lightbulb (any incandescant bulb should be fine 110v 12v, ok not a 6v) accross the red green. now test voltage across the lightbulb see if still get 15-15.4v
18v => Rugulator kaput.
You should get same output as when on bike unless the AGM battery acting as a capacitor has something to do with the high voltage or more likely a poor earth on the battery or regulator is the cause.

regarding the replacement mosfet with slightly lower voltage should waiste less power and has been shown to be good if fitting heated grips/gloves etc.
but worth noting a mosfet is generally more likely to pop than a zener diode!
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 08, 2016, 06:18:53 PM
Are you comfortable with those numbers?  Most cars operate at about a 14v charging rate.  That's what I base my opinions on.

I would think cars are a bad example because for decades there hasn't been one without a battery sensing circuit like the V7 and because I think most still don't use AGM batteries.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: O on March 08, 2016, 06:47:03 PM
First off, Kev m, thanks for the detailed summary so far.  Much appreciated.  I would agree with your advice, except...I just got back from the first ride of the season (about 62 when I left, and 50 now, crazy for early March in New England, but I digress) and retested the voltage. 

With what I presume is now a fully charged battery, I now get 12.8 at idle, and just barely touch 14.5 (14.45 actually) at 4000 rpm. 

I'm guessing that initially, the regulator was just compensating for a slightly weakened battery fresh out of hibernation.  Now that it's fully charged, the regulator is regulating right in the sweet spot.  If this hypothesis is correct, those of you that only tested voltage once fresh out of storage, you may want to take another look before changing out the regulator.   
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: O on March 08, 2016, 06:48:52 PM
Also, in the interest of science, when I took the poll, I selected "too much."  Knowing what I now know, I should have chosen "just right."
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 08, 2016, 07:09:54 PM
I just got back from the first ride of the season (about 62 when I left, and 50 now
So, you became 12 years younger?  Fantastic!
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 08, 2016, 07:56:35 PM
First off, Kev m, thanks for the detailed summary so far.  Much appreciated.  I would agree with your advice, except...I just got back from the first ride of the season (about 62 when I left, and 50 now, crazy for early March in New England, but I digress) and retested the voltage. 

With what I presume is now a fully charged battery, I now get 12.8 at idle, and just barely touch 14.5 (14.45 actually) at 4000 rpm. 

I'm guessing that initially, the regulator was just compensating for a slightly weakened battery fresh out of hibernation.  Now that it's fully charged, the regulator is regulating right in the sweet spot.  If this hypothesis is correct, those of you that only tested voltage once fresh out of storage, you may want to take another look before changing out the regulator.

Well, I'm not the electrical engineer, so I'll leave that to Jay or some one smarter than me to explain if there's a battery sense circuit or not. But I was told not. And if true the RR doesn't compensate for a discharged battery per se.

But for the record, to be certain myself. I charged my battery the night before my test. Then I rode about 60 miles and compared results from the cold start to the warm operation at the end of the ride. Peak voltages were identical.


So I can't explain your results. Either there was a testing problem OR I've been misinformed. Or there is something else in the system that can effect voltages.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: O on March 08, 2016, 08:43:33 PM
So, you became 12 years younger?  Fantastic!

Hah!  Poorly worded on my part, and a reference to the unseasonably warm temps.  Though it would be cool if Guzzi offered a time machine option.  I can't imagine the issues they'd have with a flux capacitor though...  Thankfully, in reality I'm not yet at either of those, shall we say, benchmarks of wisdom.


Well, I'm not the electrical engineer, so I'll leave that to Jay or some one smarter than me to explain if there's a battery sense circuit or not. But I was told not. And if true the RR doesn't compensate for a discharged battery per se.

But for the record, to be certain myself. I charged my battery the night before my test. Then I rode about 60 miles and compared results from the cold start to the warm operation at the end of the ride. Peak voltages were identical.


So I can't explain your results. Either there was a testing problem OR I've been misinformed. Or there is something else in the system that can effect voltages.

Hmmm, if the regulator is dumb as suspected, than my testing must have been off, though I did test several times both before and after the ride.  I'll check again tomorrow, since it's supposed to touch 70 degrees.  Thank you El Nino!
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 08, 2016, 08:52:32 PM
Hmmm, if the regulator is dumb as suspected, than my testing must have been off, though I did test several times both before and after the ride.  I'll check again tomorrow, since it's supposed to touch 70 degrees.  Thank you El Nino!

Or there's some other variable that no one has identified yet.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 08, 2016, 09:29:35 PM
Well, I'm not the electrical engineer, so I'll leave that to Jay or some one smarter than me to explain if there's a battery sense circuit or not.

From looking at the schematic, it looks like the regulator just senses voltage at it's own output.
A remote sense lead would only serve the purpose of it regulating so that the voltage at the remote sense lead point is at the desired voltage.

Voltage regulators don't "know" how charged or discharged the battery is.   They attempted to maintain a specified output voltage.   If the batter is extremely discharged, it can drag this voltage down below the set point of the regulator, simply because the alternator can't keep the input voltage to the regulator high enough.   This is also the case when running heavy loads such has heated gear, for a total load approaching or exceeding the capacity of the alternator.

I know that on my V7C, when riding at night with heated gear an the high beam on, I could see the headlight dim with each cycle of the heat controller.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: mrrick on March 09, 2016, 12:13:38 AM
BTW, I found a schematic online today that supposedly is for the Ducati Engergia Regulator Guzzi Part # 32703810 which was used on the N7, B7, and V7C - part of the schematic reads:

Voltage Regulator 15.5 +/- 0.5 V

Someone thinks 16V is acceptable?
Gosh!
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 09, 2016, 05:38:23 AM
From looking at the schematic, it looks like the regulator just senses voltage at it's own output.
A remote sense lead would only serve the purpose of it regulating so that the voltage at the remote sense lead point is at the desired voltage.

Voltage regulators don't "know" how charged or discharged the battery is.   They attempted to maintain a specified output voltage.   If the batter is extremely discharged, it can drag this voltage down below the set point of the regulator, simply because the alternator can't keep the input voltage to the regulator high enough.   This is also the case when running heavy loads such has heated gear, for a total load approaching or exceeding the capacity of the alternator.

I know that on my V7C, when riding at night with heated gear an the high beam on, I could see the headlight dim with each cycle of the heat controller.

Ok, thanks. That makes sense.  :thumb:

But how does that explain O's results in this case?

And also, am I mistaken in my impressions of auto charging circuits? Do they not use a remote sense lead and reduce charge at some point in operation?

I could swear that I've seen in multiple manuals to make sure the battery is NOT fully charged when testing charging system output. If that a common myth or what am I misunderstanding?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: O on March 09, 2016, 05:14:07 PM
Just got back from a nice ride to my favorite brewery, 130 miles round trip, and measurements were close to yesterday's measurements, both before and after the ride. 

14 and 15.1 at startup; 12.9 and 14.3 after the ride. 

I'm only using a cheapo Craftsman multimeter, but I checked it against a couple 9 volt batteries just to make sure it wasn't completely out of whack, and got readings close to 9V. 

Where's the "scratching my head" icon when you need it?

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Muzz on March 09, 2016, 08:18:16 PM
BTW, I found a schematic online today that supposedly is for the Ducati Engergia Regulator Guzzi Part # 32703810 which was used on the N7, B7, and V7C - part of the schematic reads:

Voltage Regulator 15.5 +/- 0.5 V

Someone thinks 16V is acceptable?
Gosh!

Certainly appears very high to me.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 09, 2016, 08:29:56 PM
Just got back from a nice ride to my favorite brewery, 130 miles round trip, and measurements were close to yesterday's measurements, both before and after the ride. 

14 and 15.1 at startup; 12.9 and 14.3 after the ride. 

I'm only using a cheapo Craftsman multimeter, but I checked it against a couple 9 volt batteries just to make sure it wasn't completely out of whack, and got readings close to 9V. 

Where's the "scratching my head" icon when you need it?

 :thumb:

Thanks for that test!

Now I want to hear the electrical experts explain this. What's different? I winder if I'm going to find a problem in the wiring harness or if something else could effect the reading (a damaged battery?).


This is what I wondered about when this problem was first identified.

If I were you I'd consider it operating normally.

Though I might be tempted to install a voltmeter (I'm already tempted to do that in mine because of this).

Fwiw Jay, Cam, and my voltage regulators all shipped today.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 10, 2016, 04:57:41 AM
Flood Lead Acid: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery)
AGM: http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/absorbent_glass_mat_agm (http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/absorbent_glass_mat_agm)

As a lead acid battery approaches full charge, it will draw less current.    This is called "topping charge", and should occur at a voltage no higher than 2.45V/cell or 14.7 volts.   

Quote
Once fully charged through saturation, the battery should not dwell at the topping voltage for more than 48 hours and must be reduced to the float voltage level. This is especially critical for sealed systems because they are less tolerant to overcharge than the flooded type. Charging beyond the specified limits turns redundant energy into heat and the battery begins to gas.

The recommended float voltage of most flooded lead acid batteries is 2.25V to 2.27V/cell. Large stationary batteries at 25C (77F) typically float at 2.25V/cell. Manufacturers recommend lowering the float charge when the ambient temperature rises above 29C (85F).

Not all chargers feature float charge and very few road vehicles have this provision. If your charger stays on topping charge and does not drop below 2.30V/cell, remove the charge after 48 hours of charging. Recharge every 6 months while in storage; AGM every 612 months.

Typically, you're not going to ride/drive for 48 hours straight, so, having the charge system voltage at 14.7 Volts is OK.    The better battery tenders though, will drop the voltage to a "float charge" level (typically indicated by a change in LED color or blinking on the charger).

The AGM link states that AGM batteries should be top charged at 2.4V/cell (14.4) and float changed at about 2.3V/cell (13.8V).

I'm sticking to the though that voltages over 14.7 volt are not good for the battery, and as the voltage rises above 15 volt, any voltage spikes are more likely to result in damage to the ECU or other electronics.

My recommendation is, for any bike that the voltage measures above 14.7 volts, the VR should be replaced.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Cam3512 on March 10, 2016, 05:03:46 AM
:thumb:

Thanks for that test!

Now I want to hear the electrical experts explain this. What's different? I winder if I'm going to find a problem in the wiring harness or if something else could effect the reading (a damaged battery?).


This is what I wondered about when this problem was first identified.

If I were you I'd consider it operating normally.

Though I might be tempted to install a voltmeter (I'm already tempted to do that in mine because of this).

Fwiw Jay, Cam, and my voltage regulators all shipped today.

Keep the volt meter handy, I'll take the long way to your house today and we'll see what mine has to say.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 10, 2016, 05:33:27 AM
So if someone charged their battery before testing then the results they got at startup would represent full time RR operation (that was my instinct and why I did that).

That's why mine tested identically before and after the ride (at least with regards to at speed voltages).

But if someone tested their bike only on a cold start with a battery that had been sitting for a while they might get a false positive result (that is something I was worried about with this whole situation and relative "panic").

Though it still doesn't explain why some drop the voltage and others don't unless those that don't are just broken.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 10, 2016, 07:20:38 AM
So if someone charged their battery before testing then the results they got at startup would represent full time RR operation (that was my instinct and why I did that).

That's why mine tested identically before and after the ride (at least with regards to at speed voltages).

But if someone tested their bike only on a cold start with a battery that had been sitting for a while they might get a false positive result (that is something I was worried about with this whole situation and relative "panic").

Though it still doesn't explain why some drop the voltage and others don't unless those that don't are just broken.


Both mine had been on battery tenders, and thus were fully charged when I got 15.3V and 15.5V.

A bike with a regulator putting out > 15V may measure at a safe voltage if the battery is low, such as after the bike has been sitting for a while, and then a measurement taking right after starting.

To be safe the measurement should be taking with a fully charged battery to see what the worst case high voltage condition is.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 10, 2016, 07:22:15 AM
For anyone interested, I ordered extra material to make several more adapter plates.
Because I'm lazy (or is that efficient), I ordered it pre-cut to 2x4 inches, so, all I have to do is drill, tap, and countersink holes, which I can do on my drill press at home.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: tonUPRacer on March 10, 2016, 08:46:50 AM
For anyone interested, I ordered extra material to make several more adapter plates.
Because I'm lazy (or is that efficient), I ordered it pre-cut to 2x4 inches, so, all I have to do is drill, tap, and countersink holes, which I can do on my drill press at home.

I still have yet to test, I'm assuming I'm going to need to replace mine as well. I saw the Roadster cycle guy had adapter plates all drilled. tapped for about $19, since I don't have a drill press or tap and die, I'll probably go that route. If any of you guys would be kind enough to post a little "help" with photos for connections etc. I for one would really appreciate it.

Grazie
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 10, 2016, 01:57:07 PM
I still have yet to test, I'm assuming I'm going to need to replace mine as well. I saw the Roadster cycle guy had adapter plates all drilled. tapped for about $19, since I don't have a drill press or tap and die, I'll probably go that route. If any of you guys would be kind enough to post a little "help" with photos for connections etc. I for one would really appreciate it.

Grazie

Regulator R&R is pretty easy, but access is a little tight.

I found it easiest to pull the tank (that took 5 minutes with the help of Cam, a second set of hands really helps with this) and get nice clear working room to get at the connectors which are at the top front of the frame tucked just behind the steering head and just above a small plastic dust/moisture shield.

I cut 3 wire ties that secured the shield to the frame rails and carefully bend the two front arms on the shield (one at a time) till they could be repositioned below the rails.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/KCpx1nQVFGxoA2NEGAz8OhOb1llNGsCiGfL8sW683f6QvdMgnsjefzxrAxvZ2ZI75PBllTsO1q9PZwJrsFl8qMnkEEZNZxkLKMiWa4xbGas6NHBp0bZRGXzuiYF8Lmzz-9hO2pvhHup5PQ065HcT6US1SvvXSLdXO2s51xm8My6EIrBe8ubOVi8Lo3ginzVS7cX7TrfylBmJVPmakNfu4Ycfdr9oGee4MTQs62yPPLx0vpvBqdmafoGrlB5wGR8jC-cMa6mRnQ2WSOZg6ZEAfuJjAWfmuzaMafhphuevmlTfCyo6F8dDH-ffVmcYWL8HNHd1phV5x9e-AwJjL-MzRwVIzqZO_5YbyDl9xPJPM8Xr5FOnNFqX0PY8JEzfFSOiU9artbHcBTmGy8mhAAVE4LNOpnjKyPPv3U6PJ4Js_TfUk4wvFI8mIkz0dlYtigFd13-gAWLfLPuy1jaUDpnWjhPPk7qlBqOejkfzI3a3hYtnQKl3s7Z3O0WLr4iXr1PvqNlxhvJw3weqZ_01MJi0i4lztJzHwVQglQdB6oCSYdswwCMJCkE4C-RGhxPZ13PM4Qqy=w1722-h969-no)

The 2 regulator harness connectors weren't too bad to get apart, though the on from the stator (with the 2 yellow wires) one was a little stubborn. I found it wasn't enough to push down on the release tab while pulling on the connector. I needed to use a small screwdriver to both push down on the locktab AND at the same time gently twist it to pull the connectors apart.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/K0BjbI1q7nMvb3jVEh0EvrbjDyvaBOQBnnI-RBd1cP5U-dnoDKDGH6Jq7bblGr0LNzL4aVA-EmBplvO46Zcoev1gAHy704Ieg0NqqhIbOP8nJXUDDAEI1yCoN6DM8pjT0dD3CVxRAQtXu5Ik9USBsjLEfWMnwdee_kbUBl8S_lJnZKfA30GHs2lBCcXzTtMx3ktT7Yjir_vbLbGpDx43mtKph-Hfg7lsOlOrI6hBHu-GUoIx8VKuySdLuXHiu3TrKC5ONzd6THkIO4S5__9ol7fREcZ8NlGttp1DaaqrKZwawVMPh8sApwhPFg2ElAWq2-ZtqxHdpjaapPmXY2odaD5I4nSpbCpCO8c3XQ6W0xwX03Ise3P5bSgsmWQpzkpwdOyl-EnMPJqYog04I57-Tqy5NbNgKNxqcWuQDloFwQC-oMMB5AUvGr65TMKY7bdBqAbsye1d7_F786e9QqY4XzIO4McGsdv_5Tf21qSq2q1kVzxF8Wo7dDcTHu-8U6-b2ubSSbFPdhs2ufo9GIt0UfEuyPxxWwIToU15-PBJtR1o-0RC-dFrfhYMht86HAJ8ZYFU=w1722-h969-no)

Other than that it was less than a 1/2 hour job.

Perhaps Jay can show you what he'll be doing with the wiring once he gets both regulators in his hands. But essentially the new regulator will have two sets of wires which correspond to those in the old harness. The two yellow wires from the new regulator will connect to the two yellow wires from the stator (the regulator could have 3 but Jack and RoadsterCycle prepared ours with just the 2 wires on stator connector for our single-phase setups).

The two red output wires from the V7 harness will have to be connected to the 1 red wire in the new regulator harness. And the two green/black ground wires from the V7 harness will have to be connected to the 1 black wire in the new regulator harness.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/hCGN6r4mKQs0piPO7Gwz4yFnPtKER6hjMvJWrZl_IxkW-zmAWS0V7YZDqmjUAX4l8OUFpmhqq_Lp2eaYDtq2fbON2Wtcio9ht4iB8Bv8SdIU5CJgyGerf8A-RE-Gitc8gwWXsYi3lKtdvGZQDQsYqIrLjNCVQlZUOlS3PO5v2L5AJNVeg28KfQNerXfrV5eQdI-H3z9ViVNk8_9E5BcHXugzLdWWMFSewpT0TCmo2fUhqDwqI8I5ppMINNasEgL5xhUMq8vdGZfUz3thheLhuwbGEXmWoxH1b38E0W-KTD7Arn4tXqKsuF8yh6AkCYc9lOzAUus70VwingjkU5wtk-Cz_2wwupn141iKK9SLRYyFKsXUgSAH1jdH3pE-j4eRrQZ694Bf8yunSwtnPg-X_0wy6IyYmUjsHNw_NLRLG7le-f8jv2CyZTjLcPZrX5fw1mYRDCo1zDlLS4EidDDjrii-CZWEoKVIzsH7khK-LwooTluHKJDfaWXlZLML8vcDJ3dqHmkSWdakzOsRlL_sn-Nmez1xx69Y4Uar_P-PCR0iJbMDWc058k9T80LYFuWTCFWy=w1416-h969-no)

Though you could cut the old harness and crimp the old connectors and wires onto the new harness I THINK Jay is planning on removing the terminals from these connectors and installing the connectors with new terminals onto the new regulator harness. But either method should work fine.

JAY - looks like the old regulator harness wires are about exactly 8" - so it will be nice if Jack really gave us an extra inch or two of wiring if you still plan on only putting terminals on the end of his harness.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 10, 2016, 02:17:57 PM
I'm surprised you pulled it apart before having the replacement to put back on.

What size bolts attach the VR to the frame?    They look like an M6?

The adapter plate will use flat head allen socket screws, which I need to order so that I have them on hand.
I'll get stainless steel so they don't rust.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: tonUPRacer on March 11, 2016, 10:55:49 AM
Kev, awesome thank you for the photo tutorial, a big help for a inexperienced wrench like myself. I know this isn't complicated but sometimes just a few pics and pointers can go a long way.  :thumb:

Grazie,

Andy
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 11, 2016, 11:49:10 AM
If anyone here hasn't taken the tank off before it's REALLY easy (much more so than on my previous Big Blocks)!

1. Remove Allen screw at back of tank.
2. Pull tank back off pucks to expose fuel pump wiring (front left of steering head). Unplug wiring. If you haven't already this is a good time to check the puck bolts to make sure they are tight. Better yet, back them out, put threadlock on them, then snug them up again.
3. Start and run till it stalls or crank the motor a few seconds to lower fuel pressure.
4. Lift rear of tank, follow the fuel hose from the upper midsection of the tank tunnel down to the frame rail. There's small square quick-connector with a button on two sides that you depress and hold while gently pulling up and back toward the tank. This should pull the connector off a spigot fitting right next to the frame rail.
5. Still lifting the rear of the tank carefully pull the smaller plastic hose (I think that's the filler cap overflow hose) off the nipple toward the rear underside of the tunnel,
6. Lift front of tank and carefully pull vent hose (I think that's the tank vent to the EVAP system) off the nipple at the front underside in the tunnel.
7. Remove the tank from the bike.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: sib on March 11, 2016, 02:00:12 PM
If anyone here hasn't taken the tank off before it's REALLY easy (much more so than on my previous Big Blocks!

1. Remove Allen screw at back of tank.
2. Pull tank back off pucks to expose fuel pump wiring (front left of steering head). Unplug wiring. If you haven't already this is a good time to check the puck bolts to make sure they are tight. Better yet, back them out, put threadlock on them, then snug them up again.
3. Start and run till it stalls or crank the motor a few seconds to lower fuel pressure.
4. Lift rear of tank, follow the fuel hose from the upper midsection of the tank tunnel down to the frame rail. There's small square quick-connector with a button on two sides that you depress and hold while gently pulling up and back toward the tank. This should pull the connector off a spigot fitting right next to the frame rail.
5. Still lifting the rear of the tank carefully pull the smaller plastic hose (I think that's the filler cap overflow hose) off the nipple toward the rear underside of the tunnel,
6. Lift front of tank and carefully pull vent hose (I think that's the tank vent to the EVAP system) off the nipple at the front underside in the tunnel.
7. Remove the tank from the bike.
Good instructions.  It's worth pointing out that it's easier to remove a nearly empty tank than a full one.  The weight of ~5.5 gal of gas is ~35 lb.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 12, 2016, 11:25:25 AM
Woke the bike up from winter storage this morning.  Measuring the voltage on the charging system for my 2011 V7 Racer, with the leads of my Fluke 70 multimeter across the battery terminals:

Ignition off:  12.57V
Cranking: 10.95V
At 1200RPM idle: 13.35V
At 4000RPM and above: 14.42V

Battery is the original Yuasa sealed lead acid that came with the bike.  In fact, it survived a house fire that burnt the motorcycle, so it's had a hard start to its life but apparently still going strong.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: slowmover on March 12, 2016, 01:53:01 PM
2013 V7 Stone-Checked after taking it off battery tender and 1 hour ride.Original battery and bike has almost 7k on it.
Off -12.85
Idle -13.5
3k RPM -15.5
I guess I'll check the way to much box.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 12, 2016, 02:04:46 PM
Woke the bike up from winter storage this morning.  Measuring the voltage on the charging system for my 2011 V7 Racer, with the leads of my Fluke 70 multimeter across the battery terminals:

Ignition off:  12.57V
Cranking: 10.95V
At 1200RPM idle: 13.35V
At 4000RPM and above: 14.42V

Battery is the original Yuasa sealed lead acid that came with the bike.  In fact, it survived a house fire that burnt the motorcycle, so it's had a hard start to its life but apparently still going strong.

To be clear, most or all of the 2TB models aren't suspect as they used a different regulator.

I should mention it does appear that maybe the 2012 Racer used the same regulator, but I don't think we have any reports of one overcharging yet.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 12, 2016, 02:34:34 PM
I have an early 2TB and my R/R looks the same. I get about 15v.
This is the one here:
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/mobile/Product.aspx?id=1337 (http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/mobile/Product.aspx?id=1337)

Edit also see here ( this is best description)
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/MG-VoltRectOE-p/mg-voltrectoe.htm (http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/MG-VoltRectOE-p/mg-voltrectoe.htm)
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 12, 2016, 02:46:21 PM
I have an early 2TB and my R/R looks the same. I get about 15v.
This is the one here:
http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/mobile/Product.aspx?id=1337 (http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/mobile/Product.aspx?id=1337)
.
Looks yes, wiring similar, and both single phase.

But if you check online the V7C/B7/N7 and I think the earliest racers all use one part number (for which Euromotoelectrics carries a replacement) and the 2012 Racer along with the dry stator 1TB Stone/Special/Racers use a different part number.

If the photos on various dealer websites are accurate the obvious difference is in the shape of the stator wiring connector so the two may not be completely compatible. Though it was the earlier one that Euromotoelectrics show data for suggesting it is also set to low 15V range so they may be very similar.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 12, 2016, 03:17:44 PM
Seems changing the plug was a good thing, heres another one had same issue as mine. changing the plug I no big deal although I think this auction is a bit cheeky expensive as the plug is damaged, I changed my plug.


http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/172010153523?rmvSB=true&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F710-53481-19255-0%2F1%3Ficep_ff3%3D2%26pub%3D5575125332%26toolid%3D10001%26campid%3D5337806695%26customid%3D%26icep_item%3D172010153523%26ipn%3Dpsmain%26icep_vectorid%3D229508%26kwid%3D902099%26mtid%3D824%26kw%3Dlg%26srcrot%3D710-53481-19255-0%26rvr_id%3D996349200533&_mwBanner=1 (http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/172010153523?rmvSB=true&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F710-53481-19255-0%2F1%3Ficep_ff3%3D2%26pub%3D5575125332%26toolid%3D10001%26campid%3D5337806695%26customid%3D%26icep_item%3D172010153523%26ipn%3Dpsmain%26icep_vectorid%3D229508%26kwid%3D902099%26mtid%3D824%26kw%3Dlg%26srcrot%3D710-53481-19255-0%26rvr_id%3D996349200533&_mwBanner=1)

PS can you post a link to the 2012 part Kev?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 12, 2016, 05:59:03 PM
Seems changing the plug was a good thing, heres another one had same issue as mine. changing the plug I no big deal although I think this auction is a bit cheeky expensive as the plug is damaged, I changed my plug.


http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/172010153523?rmvSB=true&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F710-53481-19255-0%2F1%3Ficep_ff3%3D2%26pub%3D5575125332%26toolid%3D10001%26campid%3D5337806695%26customid%3D%26icep_item%3D172010153523%26ipn%3Dpsmain%26icep_vectorid%3D229508%26kwid%3D902099%26mtid%3D824%26kw%3Dlg%26srcrot%3D710-53481-19255-0%26rvr_id%3D996349200533&_mwBanner=1 (http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/172010153523?rmvSB=true&ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F710-53481-19255-0%2F1%3Ficep_ff3%3D2%26pub%3D5575125332%26toolid%3D10001%26campid%3D5337806695%26customid%3D%26icep_item%3D172010153523%26ipn%3Dpsmain%26icep_vectorid%3D229508%26kwid%3D902099%26mtid%3D824%26kw%3Dlg%26srcrot%3D710-53481-19255-0%26rvr_id%3D996349200533&_mwBanner=1)

PS can you post a link to the 2012 part Kev?

Sure thing. Next time I'm on the laptop.

If you get curious before then try Harper's, MGcycle, or the AF1 websites.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: spowell on March 12, 2016, 08:29:53 PM
Just checked mine...2014 V7R, 1500 miles.

12.59v key off position
12.2v key on position

FIrst start on topped up battery:
14.9 - 15.1v idle
15.1 - 15.16v @ 3000 rpm
15.1 - 15.16v @ 5000 rpm

After a 15 min ride:
14.7- 15.1v idle
15.1 - 15.16v @ 3000 rpm
15.1 - 15.16v @ 5000 rpm

12.77v key off
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: ponti_33609 on March 13, 2016, 05:29:38 AM
Here is mine. Before start reading was 12.38v

Think mine is ok. This was after about a ten min ride.

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd173/ponti_33609/FE27C995-DBCD-46B7-AF4E-1D387170A7D7_zpsu5xkfbnb.jpg)

(http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd173/ponti_33609/C1AB324C-27D8-4A44-915D-AE0B75594751_zpsvzreco8l.jpg)
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Cam3512 on March 13, 2016, 06:40:47 AM
When I tested mine after a ride, it appeared all was well within range.  However, we kept the meter on and the voltage GRADUALLY rose up to just over 15V.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 13, 2016, 07:14:46 AM
So its like this.
pre 2012 bikes have a regulated output of 15.1v (14.95-15.15) and a 350w alternator (dry).
2012-2013 bikes may have a regulator with output around 15.45v - 15.5v still with the 350w dry alternator.
Racers are less likely to have the high voltage output R/R
around 2014 all bikes change to a 270w wet alternator the regulator changes too and these bikes show around 14.4v regulated output.

If you have an earlier bike 15.1v is a bit high and might shorten battery life but its not caused any problem.
If you have a 2012/2013 bike you should check and its best to change it for piece of mind.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Cam3512 on March 13, 2016, 07:19:16 AM
So its like this.
pre 2012 bikes have a regulated output of 15.1v (14.95-15.15) and a 350w alternator (dry).
2012-2013 bikes may have a regulator with output around 15.45v - 15.5v still with the 350w dry alternator.
Racers are less likely to have the high voltage output R/R
around 2014 all bikes change to a 270w wet alternator the regulator changes too and these bikes show around 14.4v regulated output.

If you have an earlier bike 15.1v is a bit high and might shorten battery life but its not caused any problem.
If you have a 2012/2013 bike you should check and its best to change it for piece of mind.

Here in the US, 2014 bikes have the dry 350W alternator.  2015 on had the 270W wet.  Be careful about putting out inaccurate "It's like this" information...
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 13, 2016, 07:54:57 AM
So its like this.
pre 2012 bikes have a regulated output of 15.1v (14.95-15.15) and a 350w alternator (dry).
2012-2013 bikes may have a regulator with output around 15.45v - 15.5v still with the 350w dry alternator.
Racers are less likely to have the high voltage output R/R
around 2014 all bikes change to a 270w wet alternator the regulator changes too and these bikes show around 14.4v regulated output.

If you have an earlier bike 15.1v is a bit high and might shorten battery life but its not caused any problem.
If you have a 2012/2013 bike you should check and its best to change it for piece of mind.

Not exactly.

And much of what I'm saying (and others are saying) is conjecture based on limited observation.

My guesses so far:

N7/B7/V7C and early racers (~2011) have the dry stator, and a regulator with a narrow stator output plug (2 terminals close together). Euromotoelectrics suggests the regulator on these is set to 15.1 or 15.5 +/- 0.5V. I haven't checked the factory manual but guess it will read similar to the next generation manual. But observations between here and Guzzitech suggest most test in the 14.something output range.

~2012-13 (EU/WORLD) & ~2013-14 (US) 1TB Stone/Special/Racer + maybe late 2TB Racers (~2012 US, maybe world) use a similar dry stator and regulator, but different part number on regulator (and presumably stator though I haven't checked yet) that uses a wide stator output plug (it's actually a 3-pin plug with the center terminal missing). Service manual suggests an operating range of 13-15 volts, but I suspect the regulator was spec'd similar to the previous generation for operation in the low to mid 15V range. Advertising to the 2 threads a good number of these are testing around 15.1-15.5 volts.

A few of these have shown damaged regulators and/or harnesses (not sure which is the chicken or which the egg) which tested at 16-17 volts. Some of those damaged the ECU and/or CAM sensor before discovery.

The newest wet alternator models use a 3-phase stator and regulator that seem to mostly be testing in the 14.something range and are problem few. BUT there may be one or two reports of overcharging and damaged harnesses (again not sure what's the chicken or egg here).

What no one knows for sure yet is if operation in the low 15's was intentional or is really problematic long term except for probably shortening battery life.

Todd at Guzzitech feels voltage should be limited to 14.4 which is consistent with the old/traditional info from most lead acid battery manufacturers.

Yuasa states in their 2014 manual available online that charging systems for their AGM batteries should be 14.4-14.8 volts so I'm thinking that range is fine and perhaps MG wasn't completely out of line if they spec'd a regulator that max charged at 15.1 or so.

What I can't figure out is why a number of the late-model dry alternator bikes are testing OK, unless the regulator was supposed to top out around 15 and then drop into the 14's when draw from the battery reduced.

It's possible that the regulators testing high just failed, or were always faulty. It's also possible some other factor, like damaged batteries are effecting the operation. But so far it seems everyone who replaces the regulator's are good.

We'll know more soon when I install a new regulator on a system with a battery that is definitely showing wear.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 13, 2016, 12:14:32 PM
Regarding the connectors kev,

This is my connector (from a 2008 bike), I think this is the connector reported on the later bikes?
It is not the narrow side by side connector!
whats more my r/r has in addition to the model no 434 406040 marked on it what apears to be a year and week of manufacture - 2006! I guess parts may stay on the shelf for a while in the guzzi factory add that bikes being registered upto 2 years after manufacture?

(http://s23.postimg.org/kfv0hq8a3/IMG_20160313_164538.jpg)

in my post above I was saying from reading the thread and what others are saying that the R/R which are showing ~15.4v seem to be fitted to the last dry alternator bikes (but there was a suggestion not racers?)
checking mine I had everything from 14.95 to 15.1 but never 15.4
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 13, 2016, 01:09:39 PM
posted for comment (not as recommendation)

I know voltage drop would vary with current draw from bike but 0.2v each way is that abig deal?

Ok I know there are better solutions in the form of alternate regulator but I thought what if you stuck with the original which is regulating a little high and wanted to drop the voltage by around 0.5v.
I figured that a little resistance between the R/R earth wires and the bikes earth would lower the voltage and that it would be possible to snip the two green earth wires and insert a resistor and that such a resistor could be made for about $5
The regulator body is not earthed and putting resistor on +ve would be more of a risk for shorts.

I found everything required in the garage and made a resistor in 10 minutes (actualllly took a while to fine that roll of canthal) wrapped 14 times at 2 1/4 inch so 28 strands (resistance about 5.5ohm per ft) so i made a 0.04ohm resistor. think bikes electrics are about 1ohm.?

think Id spend more time checking and make a tidier resistor if i were to try this. resistor would sit a top the r/r in air flow.
should disipate about 5watts, think although get hot should stay below 100 degrees Celsius so can use shrink wrap.
canthal


(http://s23.postimg.org/u9vyzmiqz/IMG_20160313_172844.jpg)
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: rbm on March 13, 2016, 01:58:32 PM
The current returning to the regulator through the ground connection is the same amount as delivered by the alternator to the load.  Assuming the bike draws about 216W from the alternator, the R/R is also carrying the current which that power represents, 216W/12V = 18A.  That current is delivered to the various paralleled loads on the vehicle (lights, ignition, battery, etc.) and once again combines through the frame and returns to the alternator from where it was generated.  Your home-made 0.2 Ohm resistor in series with the ground lead has to dissipate (18)2 x 0.2 = 64 Watts.  It would burn out like a fuse if it could only handle 5 Watts of power.  If it blew quickly, the heat would not damage anything.  I'd predict that it more likely would heat up like a light bulb and eventually scorch or start a fire as heat was transferred to nearby parts.

Your resistor will drop voltage proportional to the current draw of the motorcycle.  If you want to experiment, use a high power rectifier diode with 50A - 80A forward current capability.  A diode exhibits a constant 0.7V drop when used in a forward direction, independent of the current flowing through it.  You'd still need to heat sink the diode to dissipate the power loss.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 13, 2016, 02:40:03 PM
The current returning to the regulator through the ground connection is the same amount as delivered by the alternator to the load.  Assuming the bike draws about 216W from the alternator, the R/R is also carrying the current which that power represents, 216W/12V = 18A.  That current is delivered to the various paralleled loads on the vehicle (lights, ignition, battery, etc.) and once again combines through the frame and returns to the alternator from where it was generated.  Your home-made 0.2 Ohm resistor in series with the ground lead has to dissipate (18)2 x 0.2 = 64 Watts.  It would burn out like a fuse if it could only handle 5 Watts of power.  If it blew quickly, the heat would not damage anything.  I'd predict that it more likely would heat up like a light bulb and eventually scorch or start a fire as heat was transferred to nearby parts

Your resistor will drop voltage proportional to the current draw of the motorcycle.  If you want to experiment, use a high power rectifier diode with 50A - 80A forward current capability.  A diode exhibits a constant 0.7V drop when used in a forward direction, independent of the current flowing through it.  You'd still need to heat sink the diode to dissipate the power loss.



my home made resistor can be made to handle as many amps as required. I specified 0.04 ohm ( you cant measure that you have to calculate based on the wires resistance) I thought 28 strands would be enough for 30a @ 15v. if wrong more strands and longer wire required.
5w is what heat i think will be disipated by your calc 12w. 30ft wire on a role the right resistor can be made to drop 15.1 to 14.4-14.8 depending on what the bike is drawing. dont want to burn more than 10w

edit: unsure about the diode idea, my idea was to be able to make something tunable to requirement although 0.7v might be right drop, got to think if diode would have to be on the +ve because of how r/r works might loose a phase of recifier or messup the way the regulator shunts if on the ground?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on March 13, 2016, 02:58:53 PM
was actually 1/28 ohm, 0.0357... ohm, my phone playing up real bad typing into forum so having dificulty explaning.
12" wire resistance 5.5ohm
12" / 5.5 = 2.181818...
I made wire 2.181818 long and used 28 wires.
one strand of kathal will handle a lot of curent at high current it glows but at less than about 2a per wire it wont glow, i try and stay below 1 amp per wire.
it will heat up but should not get too hot.
edit :
the trick in making the resistor is make it a little long twist it to lower resistance, snip a wire out to raise.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Cam3512 on March 13, 2016, 03:04:20 PM
Anyone here install the larger aftermarket VR (FH020AA) with crash bars on their V7?   Just wondering about fit or interference with the bars where they mount to the frame up top.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on March 13, 2016, 06:31:44 PM
Yes I mounted the Mosfet VR on my13 v7 special with guzzi brand engine bars. I used the stock mounting holes and elongated them with a file.
I also used short spacers on6the mounting bolts so the wires from the VR do not touch the front engine cover
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Cam3512 on March 13, 2016, 06:41:49 PM
Yes I mounted the Mosfet VR on my13 v7 special with guzzi brand engine bars. I used the stock mounting holes and elongated them with a file.
I also used short spacers on6the mounting bolts so the wires from the VR do not touch the front engine cover

Thank you.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 13, 2016, 07:32:39 PM
I put the Shindengen FH020AA from Roadster Cycle on both my V7's (2013 V7R, 2014 V7S).    Now, both are a rock solid 14.3 volts from idle to 6,000 RPM.

I made adapter plates from 2" x 1/4" aluminum bar stock cut to 4" lengths.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1691/25137143914_089cd21979_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Eihr81)IMG_8736 (https://flic.kr/p/Eihr81) by jay_snyder67 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97354518@N02/), on Flickr


The plate mounts to the bike using flat head stainless steel socket head screws in the countersunk holes.     The VR attaches to the plate with M6x20mm stainless steel socket head cap screws.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1645/25137139784_b6c902b1b2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EihpTN)IMG_8737 (https://flic.kr/p/EihpTN) by jay_snyder67 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97354518@N02/), on Flickr

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1591/25466895090_47d3a4889c_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ENquE7)IMG_8738 (https://flic.kr/p/ENquE7) by jay_snyder67 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97354518@N02/), on Flickr

The wiring clears the front engine cover.
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1645/25137139784_b6c902b1b2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EihpTN)IMG_8737 (https://flic.kr/p/EihpTN) by jay_snyder67 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97354518@N02/), on Flickr
Things are a little tighter on the V7 Racer with it's Record fairing.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1533/25466897550_a7c80e4658_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ENqvow)IMG_8744 (https://flic.kr/p/ENqvow) by jay_snyder67 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97354518@N02/), on Flickr

On bikes with crash bars mounted to the holes above, it will be necessary to mount the VR lower, and further away so the wires don't foul the front engine cover where they exit the cover.    Using 1/2" think aluminum will do the job or just a second 1/4" piece as a space will do as well.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 13, 2016, 07:44:30 PM
Adapter harness:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1541/25741528476_7462897f98_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FdG4Au)IMG_8733 (https://flic.kr/p/FdG4Au) by jay_snyder67 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97354518@N02/), on Flickr

I cut the wiring off the stock VR, and spliced into the stub harness provided with RoadsterCycle's "crimp & go" kit.

There are two yellow wires on the stuck VR, so, simple yellow (#10,#12) butt splices do the job.
But, there are TWO connections for the plus and minus DC circuits.     Lacking a suitable terminal join two #12 wires to single #10, I opted to solder these connections, and then cover them with water proof heat shrink tubing that has a hot-glue type coating on the inside that melts when you heat the tubing and seals the connection.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1500/25137143114_3f29256052_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EihqTd)IMG_8735 (https://flic.kr/p/EihqTd) by jay_snyder67 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/97354518@N02/), on Flickr

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: canuguzzi on March 13, 2016, 09:40:45 PM
jas67, that plate is begging for 10-15 additional holes.  :wink:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: SmithSwede on March 13, 2016, 09:41:51 PM
Ok, another data point.  I've got a 2013 V7 Stone with 40,400 miles, and original battery and everything else stock.

After a long ride with engine and everything else stinking hot, I'm showing:

Idle 14.0 volts.

15.37 V at both 3,000 and 4,000 rpm.   

Main ground and all other connectors I'm aware of are known to be clean and tight.  Just did the spring time DeOxit and tightening.

Maybe my logic is faulty, but I'm prepared not to care.  Yes, maybe it's a bit hot.  But I don't really trust a motorcycle battery after 2 to 3 years anyway.  In my view, spending $75 for a fresh battery on a regular basis eliminates a lot of electrical problems and minimizes my worries on the road far from home. 

Heck, based on what KevM has found, it's not clear to me that this performance is even out of spec.   
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: mcguyver on March 14, 2016, 01:49:52 AM
I have a 2012 V7R which is showing 15.1 volts. Can anyone confirm if this is cause for concern? I am confused by all the posts.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: ponti_33609 on March 14, 2016, 06:12:07 AM
From the service dept where I purchased my bike FWIW.

Bob,

We think Guzzi installed that higher switching voltage regulator/rectifier on purpose. They are all like that. All measure same.

There was no way to expand the alternator size because of the wheel and casting positions so they bumped up the voltage of the zener diode gate switch. Yeah, poor substitute but it was cheap!

You can go back to 14.6VDC reg/rec if you want but in our opinion it doesn't resolve anything really.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: tonUPRacer on March 14, 2016, 08:39:31 AM


Maybe my logic is faulty, but I'm prepared not to care.  Yes, maybe it's a bit hot.  But I don't really trust a motorcycle battery after 2 to 3 years anyway.  In my view, spending $75 for a fresh battery on a regular basis eliminates a lot of electrical problems and minimizes my worries on the road far from home. 

Heck, based on what KevM has found, it's not clear to me that this performance is even out of spec.

I'm leaning ^^^this way as well after talking to my dealer Jim at Rose Farm.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 14, 2016, 08:55:42 AM
I have a 2012 V7R which is showing 15.1 volts. Can anyone confirm if this is cause for concern? I am confused by all the posts.

As you well should be because no one has a definitive answer and there are differing opinions.

I've tried to lay out all the data to let people make up their own minds.

But every indication is that your bike is likely functioning as designed.

Of course the same could be said about a lot of other Guzzis that are changed by the owners to function differently or better than the factory.

My personal take is this, MG spec'd a higher than industry charging rate on these bikes. But that variances in build quality or possibly a bad batch of regulators has some of them charging even higher.

Meanwhile a couple with more serious problems that were spiking voltages in the 16-17 V range fried their CAM sensor or ECU which is what led to a mass check of the charging systems.

Some, like Todd at Guzzitech would prefer to see voltages no higher than the traditional 14.4 and as such are recommending a change in regulator even if you are only showing 14.8-15.1 volts.

My little brother Jay, an electrical engineer by trade, seems to largely concur.

I'm a little more trusting to both the MG design and my own observations (like some here, Smith Swede and the like), so I'm tempted to call it normal. But I'm still replacing my regulator for long term function.

My thought is that IF you decide to keep it stock, maybe it's worth the effort to add a voltmeter gauge so you know if it ever spikes into dangerous territory.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 14, 2016, 08:57:19 AM
Ok, another data point.  I've got a 2013 V7 Stone with 40,400 miles, and original battery and everything else stock.

After a long ride with engine and everything else stinking hot, I'm showing:

Idle 14.0 volts.

15.37 V at both 3,000 and 4,000 rpm.   

Main ground and all other connectors I'm aware of are known to be clean and tight.  Just did the spring time DeOxit and tightening.

Maybe my logic is faulty, but I'm prepared not to care.  Yes, maybe it's a bit hot.  But I don't really trust a motorcycle battery after 2 to 3 years anyway.  In my view, spending $75 for a fresh battery on a regular basis eliminates a lot of electrical problems and minimizes my worries on the road far from home. 

Heck, based on what KevM has found, it's not clear to me that this performance is even out of spec.


I completely understand this take on it.

My only reservation and bewilderment are the 2013/14 models that are testing in the mid 14's. Why that difference?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pyoungbl on March 14, 2016, 09:12:59 AM
Another data point:  I discovered that the R/R on my '13 V7 was charging at over 15V and switched to a mosfet R/R.  This at about 5K miles on the bike.  Yesterday, at 7.5K, my battery was discharged to the point the bike would barely crank but not start.  I had just put over 700 miles on the bike in the past 10 days and there was no drain, that I could identify, in the two days between the last start and now.  My conclusion is that the over-charge probably damaged the battery just enough to lead to an early death.  This might also explain why, at idle, the system was discharging.

The 15+V charge might not immediately kill the battery but I believe it can do no good and will probably hasten the demise of electrical components...the battery being the first.  At 2.5 years it's a bit early to see a battery die with no sign of abuse. 

Peter Y.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on March 14, 2016, 09:21:18 AM
As I reported early in this thread my V7 Stone battery is showing signs of age when compared to the other, older batteries in my fleet over the past year or two.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on March 14, 2016, 09:36:29 AM
My 2013 V7R has about 9k miles on it, and is now 3 1/2 years old.   It will be interesting to see how long the batter lasts as compared to my 2014 V7 Special that only has 15xx miles on it, and now has the new regulator (at 14.3 volts).
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: SmithSwede on March 25, 2016, 04:38:56 PM
OK, another data point.   This Tuesday I had to replace the original battery on my 13 Stone after 27 months of regular use and 40,500 miles.  It was a cold morning at 36 degrees, and it just didn't have enough juice to spin the engine fast enough to crank.
 
Put a new Yuasa in, and was surprised at how much peppier my starter motor was with a fresh battery.   I had gotten used to sluggish turnover.  So I'd have to say that my original battery had been on its last legs for a while.

Maybe it died an early death to overly hot 15+ volt charging.  But my working theory is that you guys jinxed it by raising this subject and making me put a voltmeter to the battery. 
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: O on March 26, 2016, 08:11:56 AM
SmithSwede,  I'm with you, the jinx is in!  :wink:

Based on my findings for my bike, I'm going to keep the stock VR and take my chances. 
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Cam3512 on March 26, 2016, 08:20:09 AM
SmithSwede,  I'm with you, the jinx is in!  :wink:

Based on my findings for my bike, I'm going to keep the stock VR and take my chances.

The EVIDENCE is also in!  His stock VR killed his battery in just over 2 years.  Good luck with that, replacing mine. 
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on April 01, 2016, 02:16:13 PM
HOPEFULLY MY LAST REPORT ON THIS TOPIC

If you remember a few weeks ago I, like a lot of 2013-14 owners (maybe 15 not-so-much) found that my bike was charging a bit high either when judged by most battery manufacturer info or even Guzzi's own factory service manual:

OK, so cold start this afternoon gave me 15.4 Volts from 1-4k rpm.

I figured I've had it for years and it's probably always done this, so I took it for a ride (to drain the fuel a bit, I figure it's probably easier to pull the tank to do this anyway, and I might as well replace that fuel filter now if that's the case).

When I got back it was reading 12.8 volts at idle, but still 15.4 anywhere above that.

I need a voltage regulator, and I'm starting to believe I won't be alone.

In the end Jay, Cam, and I got 4 regulators from Jack @ www.roadstercycle.c om and Jay wired them to our existing connectors cut from the old OEM regulators.

This was a nice way to adapt the 2 wire output of the Mosfet regulator to the 4 wire (output for the OEM regulator) and it made it a nice plug and play with the ability to go back to an OEM replacement unit if ever desired.

My bike is now showing about 12.8 V @b warm idle, and no more than 14.25-14.30 @ speed cold or warm.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pyoungbl on April 01, 2016, 03:33:26 PM
Well, I had to replace my battery yesterday.  The bike is 2 1/2 years old.  After being fully charged (Battery Tender charger) to 14V the bike sat for about a week.  When I pushed the start button nothing happened...no click...nothing but some lights.  My meter showed 11V.  The battery shop agreed that this was probably due to being over charged for a couple years.  With a sealed battery you can't simply pop the caps and see if there is a problem.   Now she fires right up.

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on April 01, 2016, 06:18:15 PM
Well, I had to replace my battery yesterday.  The bike is 2 1/2 years old.  After being fully charged (Battery Tender charger) to 14V the bike sat for about a week.  When I pushed the start button nothing happened...no click...nothing but some lights.  My meter showed 11V.  The battery shop agreed that this was probably due to being over charged for a couple years.  With a sealed battery you can't simply pop the caps and see if there is a problem.   Now she fires right up.

Now might be a good time to replace that VR.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on April 01, 2016, 06:46:44 PM
Now might be a good time to replace that VR.

Ha, ha, but he did. At about 5k but the damage to the battery was already done.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: drlapo on April 01, 2016, 06:57:46 PM
The battery in my1979 Triumph T140 is 10 years old this month
3 phase alternator with a podtronics regulator rectifier
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pyoungbl on April 01, 2016, 07:01:23 PM
Ha, ha, but he did. At about 5k but the damage to the battery was already done.
:1:

As I recall, I was  one of the first to mention the over charge problem...and that replacing the R/R was prudent.  Since then we have had lots of scholarly discussion about the issue.  In the end I have had what I consider to be an early battery failure.  Others seem to think that it's OK to have a R/R charging the battery at +15V, I do not share that opinion.  Now I have a replacement R/R and a new battery...I'm good to go for quite a long time.  See you on the road.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on April 01, 2016, 09:19:19 PM
Ha, ha, but he did. At about 5k but the damage to the battery was already done.

D'oh!

I was confusing him with someone else who said he wasn't concerned.

 :embarrassed:

Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on April 01, 2016, 10:41:54 PM
Check the ground connection, I doubt it's that but won't do any harm to check.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Muzz on April 01, 2016, 11:39:31 PM
:1:

.  Others seem to think that it's OK to have a R/R charging the battery at +15V, I do not share that opinion. 

You and me also!
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: pikipiki on April 02, 2016, 03:27:37 AM
From the service dept where I purchased my bike FWIW.

Bob,

We think Guzzi installed that higher switching voltage regulator/rectifier on purpose. They are all like that. All measure same.

There was no way to expand the alternator size because of the wheel and casting positions so they bumped up the voltage of the zener diode gate switch. Yeah, poor substitute but it was cheap!

You can go back to 14.6VDC reg/rec if you want but in our opinion it doesn't resolve anything really.


I understand this is not an opinion but a quote. I don't follow the logic of the quoted statement. Asside from getting into the technicalities of how this would make negligible difference, the alternator is 350w, Guzzi later changed to 270w with a lower voltage regulator so they could not have been so concerned about saving a few watts of alternator output.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: tonUPRacer on April 18, 2016, 09:38:33 AM
Looks like the poll is closed, finally got around to testing mine. My battery is 1 year old, one of those Lightweight Lithium jobs. I'm showing 15.5 at 3K rpm. Since I don't want to fry this $200 battery, I'm replacing. Really wanted spend that money on coating my headers and exhaust instead of a VR... : :angry:
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: spowell on June 24, 2016, 07:24:13 PM
Question for someone who knows more about mc electrical systems than I do:

So, I changed my VR last night because it was running at 14.1 at idle and 15.2v at 3000 rpm. Swap was easy and when done, I started the bike and my voltmeter indicated 13.8 at idle and 14.1 at 3000rpm. So, I thought all good. I went for a 2 hour ride today, (75% stop and go, 25% hwy with three stops) and when I got back home, I checked the voltage again. Now its reading 12.4 at idle and 13.2 at 3000rpm. So, a now little bit concerned. Seems a bit low.

Just put it on the tender and had a solid orange light (indicating less than 80% charged) and after 10 min solid green (indicating fully charged).

Bad battery or bad VR or something else?  I have a 2014 V7R with the original battery. Bike has been sitting for a week before I did the VR swap. Thoughts?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: jas67 on June 25, 2016, 08:08:09 AM
Sounds like a bad connection or bad VR.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: JProdun on August 27, 2017, 07:26:04 PM
Looks like i'll have to measure mine as well. Mine is a '14 with no issues at this point, but doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

So is there a plug and play replacement available at this time?

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on August 28, 2017, 04:05:54 AM
Before changing out the reg I would inspect the grounding and the multi-way connector (1) very closely.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
The wiring between alternator (23) and regulator (24) looks straight forward but sometimes there are hidden features

Don't forget to scrape and Vaseline the battery terminals.
Also inspect the 30 Amp fuse for discolouration of the plastic, the VIIs used to fry that up pretty good.
The schematic shows the battery lead connected Tee fashion, I doubt it's really like that.

I haven't had a close look at a V7 but I wouldn't be surprised if there's some simple fault causing the over Voltage similar to the VII
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: mr_pacman on April 17, 2021, 12:38:14 AM
Bumping this thread.

Did anyone find a plug and play solution that didn't require cutting wires (and then having to crimp/solder) or fabricating a plate to replace the voltage regulator?

I've got a North American spec 2014 V7 racer that is charging in the mid 15's.

This one appears to be a plug and play unit but curious if anyone has used it:

https://rmstator.com/en_us/mosfet-voltage-regulator-rectifier-for-moto-guzzi-california-vintage-1100-nevada-750-v7-special-750-2006-2014

Thanks
James
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: mechanicsavant on April 17, 2021, 06:41:06 AM
While doing my pre purchase research I saw this issue mentioned. So , shortly after I brought my 16 V7 II home I fitted a voltmeter purchased from Aerostich its a wee unit that i tagged into the b+wire on the accessory plug up by the steering head . Ive, so far not seen anything over 14.5 v . It cycles all the time between 12.5 v & 14.5 v . So , keeping my fingers crossed . 19k Mi. So far & I run a jacket heater in cold temps .
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: SmithSwede on April 17, 2021, 12:00:03 PM
Ok, Ill follow up on my prior post back in 2016.  I still have the original R/R that charges a bit high. Bike is now at 120,000 miles.  Nothing bad has happened; entire electrical system works great.   I tend to think Guzzi designed it this way and there is nothing to worry about. 
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Vagrant on April 17, 2021, 03:25:14 PM
Didn't you have to replace several cam position sensors?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on April 17, 2021, 05:25:00 PM
Ok, Ill follow up on my prior post back in 2016.  I still have the original R/R that charges a bit high. Bike is now at 120,000 miles.  Nothing bad has happened; entire electrical system works great.   I tend to think Guzzi designed it this way and there is nothing to worry about.

When you say charges a bit high, how high?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: SmithSwede on April 17, 2021, 07:11:27 PM
Didn't you have to replace several cam position sensors?

Yes, I have.  But Im convinced that the cam position sensors do not see system voltage.  I could be wrong.  The failed sensors were not open circuit or burnt, and passed the Ohm test.  Im pretty sure my problems were bad connection or corrosion at the connector. 
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: SmithSwede on April 17, 2021, 07:13:10 PM
When you say charges a bit high, how high?

15.37 v above 3,500 rpm
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on April 17, 2021, 07:20:28 PM
15.37 v above 3,500 rpm

Thank you.

If you would continue to indulge, can you tell me about the battery/batteries?!?
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: SmithSwede on April 18, 2021, 12:36:09 PM
Thank you.

If you would continue to indulge, can you tell me about the battery/batteries?!?

Of course.  Data = good.  And agreedthe only potential downside I see from arguable excess voltage is reduced battery life. 

My batteries always tend to last about 3 to 3.5 years.  I think thats due to the Texas heat and the fact that I ride a lot.   So there are a lot of starting cycles per unit time.  Im not sure you can validly compare how long a battery lasts unless you also know how much use it got. 

3 years is not unique to my arguably overcharging Guzzi.   Had the same experience on a Yamaha FJR, BMW F800S, and Ninja 250.  I had a voltmeter on the BMW and it was normal in the sense of providing about 14.7 max volts.   Batteries didnt last any longer. 

I always buy Yuasa batteries.   Maybe Id get better life from a different brand. 

Final thought.   A weak or failing battery is the source of many woes and heightens unreliability.    So I tend to be pretty aggressive about replacing a suspect battery since I figure I avoid a lot of hassle.    And Ive twice had a battery totally and completely fail with almost no warning.   I figure one expensive tow service you avoid pays for a lot of batteries!
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Kev m on April 18, 2021, 12:39:49 PM
Of course.  Data = good.  And agreedthe only potential downside I see from arguable excess voltage is reduced battery life. 

My batteries always tend to last about 3 to 3.5 years.  I think thats due to the Texas heat and the fact that I ride a lot.   So there are a lot of starting cycles per unit time.  Im not sure you can validly compare how long a battery lasts unless you also know how much use it got. 

3 years is not unique to my arguably overcharging Guzzi.   Had the same experience on a Yamaha FJR, BMW F800S, and Ninja 250.  I had a voltmeter on the BMW and it was normal in the sense of providing about 14.7 max volts.   Batteries didnt last any longer. 

I always buy Yuasa batteries.   Maybe Id get better life from a different brand. 

Final thought.   A weak or failing battery is the source of many woes and heightens unreliability.    So I tend to be pretty aggressive about replacing a suspect battery since I figure I avoid a lot of hassle.    And Ive twice had a battery totally and completely fail with almost no warning.   I figure one expensive tow service you avoid pays for a lot of batteries!


 :thumb:

Thanks.

More to think about. But you've certainly made an argument for not worrying about it so much.
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: fossil on April 21, 2021, 05:53:54 AM
Hmmm.... 2013 V7 Stone. First regulator, first battery. 32000 km. Even the first lamps are okay. However when I fitted the "super" lamps from Osram and Philips they lasted for 20 minutes...
Title: Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
Post by: Zoom Zoom on April 21, 2021, 06:23:01 AM
A volt meter is a worth while addition indeed.

I still think an amp meter can be useful is you pay attention to it, and/or understand what it's telling you. Back when, I had them on several cars I had. When a battery began to fail, you could tell. A weak battery would charge a lot of amps but come up very quickly, weather it be a start cycle or leaving the lights on. A good battery would charge more slowly. It was a notable difference.

In any event, my III is running 14.2 except when stopped. It drops a bit but comes right back up once in motion again. I tied in as close to the battery as I could on a switched wire so I was not getting loss in the wiring. I figure the idea of doing this early on will help me know the condition of the electrical system as it ages, or suddenly changes.

John Henry