Author Topic: Norge no power to solenoid  (Read 1658 times)

Offline Bison

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Norge no power to solenoid
« on: April 10, 2022, 12:48:50 PM »
Hi Folks,
Got my Norge out today and it won't turn over.
It has no power going to the solenoid when the starter button is pressed. If you take a wire from the positive side of the battery to the solenoid connector she turns over and starts right up no problem.
The startus interruptus has been done, the relay makes a very quiet click when you you switch the ignition on, nothing when you press the starter button though, I've swapped relays over, no difference. I cannot find a wiring diagram for the LI relay. Had the handlebar switch out, ok, side stand and neutral light goes off and on. All fuses ok. 12v or more going to the starter relay
I can not for the life of me find a wiring diagram I can either see or read to trace the solenoid wire back to a connector. And from what I can see the black wire disappears into the wiring loom.
Any help gratefully received.
Alan.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2022, 01:35:44 PM by Bison »

Offline drdwb

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2022, 01:27:34 PM »
This will probably be of little help but last year my 07 was doing same thing, ended up being tiny bit of corrosion under the + battery connection. I suppose if it starts by jumping it that rules out the kill switch. Sounds like youíve checked everything I would have. Good luck, Iíll follow this post to hear the winning solution.
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Offline old head

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2022, 01:51:40 PM »
sounds like bad connection somewhere.
My breva had a similar problem last year.

It ended up being a combination of the 3 things.  Bad solenoid, too weak of a battery, and loose connection at the relay connection to the solenoid.  Meter showed 12 volts, but the loose connection wouldn't let enough amps to pass to crank.

the solenoid was weak, it would start fine with a strong battery, like when I would jump from my truck, but not with my older battery.
Best charge I could get on the battery was about 12.2 volts.
I cleaned connections at battery and starter.
after having the starter cleaned and solenoid replaced, installed new battery it still wouldn't start.  Started back tracing the connections from solenoid back. and that's when I noticed the wire from relay to solenoid was not tight.  fixed it and it has been great every since.

Good luck, I really don't like electrical gremlins, they don't make any sense to me

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Offline RHAT

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2022, 02:53:01 PM »
I've had the same issues,  I thought I had it fixed, but with the issues I'm having now,  I'm not sure anymore.  I did the startus interruptus relay loop. New starter,  and a new battery. Everything worked as normal until I went to re-start out on a ride and only got a click. I discovered the main fuse blown and both headlights burned out again.  I replaced the fuse, and headlights and checked the charging and everything is good , until I blew another main fuse. Replaced the fuse and disconnected the blower on the oil cooler because it seems to be the only thing not fused in that circuit.
This morning rode 20 miles to breakfast,  on the way the abs light would sporadically light and the speedometer would fall. Lights were still working when I got to the restaurant and it started fine and ran fine all the way home,  but now both headlights and burned out again and it's not charging even after replacing the blown main fuse.  I think the alternator is charging because the new bulb I just replaced is lit when it's running,  but doesn't seem to be getting from the alternator back to the fuse or battery. 
I really don't know what else to do.   Replace the alternator and hope for luck? 

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2022, 02:53:01 PM »

Online moto-uno

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2022, 03:08:59 PM »
  Do either of you have a multi-meter ? They're certainly cheap enough ( even by Guzzi standards )
  Set to DC volts and probe the harness until the volts disappear or drop noticeably and the second use
  would be to check the charging voltage , tedious , yes ; hard , no !  Peter

Offline Huzo

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2022, 04:06:33 PM »
Seems at first read that...
If the startus mod has been done, itís not hard to check if the relay is continuous or not. When it pulls in (if it does), just put a test lead across the opposite pins to make sure itís continuous.
Putting a lead from the battery to the starter has shown you that thereís nothing wrong with the hardware as such. As mentioned, just work through from the battery to the starter along the main starter supply by cleaning the contacts as you go.
These big block things are notorious for having the earth (ground) go bad, so make sure you thoroughly refurbish that.

Offline Bison

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2022, 04:41:04 PM »
Hi Folks
Yes, I have a meter, been using it.
+12v to the relay from the battery, ignition on and +12v to both smaller diameter wires, pink/black, red/b;lack, ignition on press starter button, nothing coming through orange wire to the solenoid. so relay coil not pulling bridge in, move up to starter button, all seems ok 12v in.
Alan

Offline Bison

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2022, 04:44:16 PM »
I assume pressing starter button earth/grounds the circuit, that's why there is 12v on either side of the relay coil?, so I should be looking at the switch earth/ground?

Offline flower_king001

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2022, 05:07:51 PM »
remove the plastic "starter cover" and make sure the ground is clean and snug.
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Offline Huzo

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2022, 06:14:22 PM »
remove the plastic "starter cover" and make sure the ground is clean and snug.
Thatís a pretty good bet.

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2022, 08:35:26 AM »
Do you hear the faint click of the relay under the seat when you press the button? Do you get voltage to that small relay when you press the button? If I remember there are TWO fuses that the starter solenoid power passes through.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Bison

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2022, 01:08:55 PM »
Hi Folks,
I get a faint click at the relay when I tun the ignition on, nothing when I press the starter button. There is power at every terminal on the relay except the one going to the solenoid, that is, 12v or more at three wires when I turn the ignition on. Put a spare battery in, 13.2V, no difference, every earth/ground is shining and has continuity I rig a wire from the solenoid to the positive terminal and away she goes, starts no problem

Online Tom H

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2022, 01:41:33 PM »
Have you made sure that the starter switch is working? You may need to open the housing for the switch and see if power goes through.

I think it was mentioned that the switch may send power to ground to activate the relay. You should look at the wiring diagram to see where power is supposed to be.

I would say a bad relay, I believe you already tried another.

You might want to check the neutral sender. This may not apply to you, but I think it controls a relay that sends the power to the starter relay.

Good luck,
Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
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Offline Bison

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2022, 02:01:31 PM »
Had the switch out, cleaned and sprayed with WD40, tried three re;lays, power to the relay all the time when the ignition is on, no flickering or otherwise dodgy neutral light, tried stand, clutch switch etc, power to all three terminals of the relay when ignition on. I can't find a wiring diagram I can read, everything in the discription/numbers are blurred, I can find the starter relay. I don't understand why there is power to the two small coil pull wires in the relay unless when the starter button is pressed it earths/grounds the loop to activate the relay?

Online Tom H

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2022, 02:18:09 PM »
2004 Cali EV Touring
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Offline PJPR01

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2022, 02:32:58 PM »
Had the switch out, cleaned and sprayed with WD40, tried three re;lays, power to the relay all the time when the ignition is on, no flickering or otherwise dodgy neutral light, tried stand, clutch switch etc, power to all three terminals of the relay when ignition on. I can't find a wiring diagram I can read, everything in the discription/numbers are blurred, I can find the starter relay. I don't understand why there is power to the two small coil pull wires in the relay unless when the starter button is pressed it earths/grounds the loop to activate the relay?

Have you checked the main fuse? 
Paul R
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Offline Bison

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2022, 02:56:26 PM »
Hi, Yes, all fuses are fine, no problem with power to the relay, the problem seems to be getting the relay to pull in, the operating coil inside the relay isn't activating and pulling the bridge over to send 12v to the solenoid. Tried  swapping relays, no joy, I'm going to look at the switch again unless someone has other ideas?

Offline Bison

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2022, 03:40:40 AM »
Hi, so can anyone tell me if the starter relay should have 12v going to all three terminals when the ignition is switched on?, the only terminal which isn't live is the one going to the starter solenoid, and when the start button is pressed, nothing changes.

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2022, 07:56:12 AM »
Hi Folks,
I get a faint click at the relay when I tun the ignition on, nothing when I press the starter button. There is power at every terminal on the relay except the one going to the solenoid, that is, 12v or more at three wires when I turn the ignition on.

The starter RELAY under the seat has GROUND on one of the terminals, plus of course the output terminal will measure low. So you should have 12 voltages at only one terminal, before you press the start button.
Then, when you press the start button, you will see 12 volts on three terminals, and ground on the one side of the coil.


I take all of that back. The ECU controls the coil and can do whatever it wants voltage wise. Obviously when you press the starter button one side of the coil must be LOW, and the other side HIGH.
From the schematic, when the MAIN relay pulls, you will get 12 volts on the coil. Then the ECU will apparently pull the other side of the coil LOW when you press the button.
So yes, 12 volts on the relay except the solenoid side, then you will get a LOW voltage from the ECU when you press the start button. (my schematic implies that is the red/pink wire)

« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 08:13:32 AM by Wayne Orwig »
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Offline Bison

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2022, 10:39:48 AM »
Seems I need to look at the starter button again, or horror, the ECU. I could try to find the ECU earth/ground and take a jumper wire from that to the battery neg.

Online Tom H

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #20 on: April 12, 2022, 11:00:47 AM »
You might try taking a look again at the safety switches and their wires (clutch lever, side stand, neutral ect.). I think Wayne is right that the ECU controls the starter relay. If the switch at the clutch lever for instance is telling the ECU the wrong thing, the ECU will not let the starter crank.

Good luck,
Tom
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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #21 on: April 12, 2022, 11:14:16 AM »
Sounds like starter interruptus . Had the same problem with my Norge years ago.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #22 on: April 12, 2022, 11:24:22 AM »
It is time to do the ECU plug-ins & pin connectors, DeOxit. Start there & do all wiring plugs & connectors in that circuits. This is what's needed. I'd wire a hot button on starter cover if mine, I like to ride.
One reason i ride old stuff. Bigger wires & no gadgets.
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #23 on: April 12, 2022, 01:31:02 PM »
Sounds like starter interruptus . Had the same problem with my Norge years ago.

He said the relay under the seat is not even clicking, so it is not startus interuptus.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2022, 01:33:44 PM »
Seems I need to look at the starter button again, or horror, the ECU. I could try to find the ECU earth/ground and take a jumper wire from that to the battery neg.

The ECU is functioning for the most part, since it does start and run when you jumper the solenoid.

Very odd.

Check the dashboard voltage readout. Someone once thought a low voltage locked out the starter. I doubt it, but it never hurts to check.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Bison

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2022, 02:02:08 PM »
Well, no joy. The clutch switch is fine, cleaned and tested at the connector too, side stand switch fine, neutral switch is the only one I can't get to although all the lights including neutral work perfectly, no flickering, in and out of gear the light responds instantly, in fact everything is working as it should and always has. I've been pissing around with this since Sunday morning to no avail, the bike was running perfectly when put away after riding on Friday

Offline Bison

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2022, 02:07:08 PM »
The battery is just off charge, reading 13.8V, when I put it on charge it was reading 12.7V, I tried using a jump battery from my car, that made no difference.I'm thinking I might do the obvious and rig a button from the solenoid to the battery, but would the ecu be ok doing this?

Online Tom H

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2022, 02:16:26 PM »
I know this is frustrating. You have some very good people helping you with this that know the bike more than I do.

Thanks for checking the safety bits. One last thing on them. I'm sure you have tried pulling the clutch lever while hitting the starter, in gear out of gear, side stand up and down. Only takes a moment to check.

As mentioned, maybe a dirty connector or loose wire. I think Steve mentioned to check the ECU plug for corrosion. Even if you don't see any, still give it a cleaning.

Could the starter fix have a failed or loose wire?

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
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1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
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Offline Bison

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2022, 02:25:52 PM »
Hi Tom,
Yes, you are correct, very knowledgeable people are helping., and I certainly appreciate that
Yes, tried all those options.
Tomorrow I'll disconnect the starter switch and see if I can find any continuity through it, I suppose it's always possible it's the switch, although unlikely.

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2022, 02:29:53 PM »
Check the voltage of Yellow wire on Ignition Relay #3 on diagram, I think it's the only solid Yellow wire on the relays. You should have close to 12V. I believe this is the wire Wayne tied a good 12V from a main fuse or from your batt w/fuse wire for StartusInteruptus.
Hotwire to solenoid doesn't hurt anything unless you push button while running.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 02:39:38 PM by guzzisteve »
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Harper's Moto Guzzi : Go Ride , Break Parts, Call me!
Harper's Moto Guzzi. Where we still answer the phone, use the highest quality parts, and also do Transmission, rear drive, and carb rebuilds fast. Call us at 816.697.3411 and get your problems resolved.
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Advertise Here