Norge no power to solenoid

[Bison]

Yes, it already has the StartusInteruptus mod done, battery voltage, 12.9V at least.
Good to know rigging a start button up is possible, I'll find out when I do a continuity test and voltage test to see if the button is faulty.

[guzzisteve]

One of the pins on that relay plug goes to the ECU. Pink/Brown .That's the plug you need to clean, it's real PIA but it might fix it. Sounds like it's only thing left you haven't done.

[flower_king001]

Again, remove the plastic starter and make sure you can't move the ground connector. How do I know? I went through everything you are describing including a new battery before finding the loose ground.

[Bison]

Is there a tip over sensor fitted to the UK bikes?, and if so, where is it located?.
Earths are checked double and triple checked. I get continuity between the blue wire and the pink/black wire when the start button is pressed with no ignition on, but when I switch the ignition and press the button I get no voltage through the blue wire. my switch has a redundant red wire, and the colours don't tally up with the wiring diagram.

[Bison]

So, I;m getting a voltage drop on the yellow/red wire which goes to the ECU from the switch, 11.4V then press the button and it reduces to 1.4V, so the ecu is dropping the voltage to energise the coil in the relay, but deciding not to, which points yet again to Neutral/sidestand/clutch switch, checked the first two with the meter at the connectors, all ok, so time to take the airbox off andcheck the nuetral switch I suppose

[Tom H]

Check any connectors that the wire passes through. Not the first time someone has had a corrosion issue in a connector. Check the big ones in front if the wire goes through it, they are kinda exposed to weather.

Tom

[Bison]

Hi Folks,
Well, the ECU plugs were sparkling but I cleaned them anyway, no luck. The only anomaly, if it is that, is the pink/black wire from the starter button to the connector has 11.8V, when you press the button it drops to 0.4V, according to the wiring diagram I'm pretty sure that wire goes to the ECU.
The other wires have 12.8V.

[Wayne Orwig]

Supposedly, pin 1 of the ECU grey connector feeds the starter relay. Can you measure that too when you press the button?

(maybe a red/pink wire on my schematic)

[Bison]

Yes, 12.4 to 12.8V on all the relay wires except the one going to the solenoid, regardless of what the button is doing. The only voltage drop I see in the whole starter wiring is on the yellow/black wire from the starter button(on the other side of the plug it changes to yellow/red) which when pressed drops from 11.8V to almost zero, around 0.4V

[Bison]

That yellow/red wire goes to pin 28 on the ECU on the blue plug according to the diagram I'm looking at, and yet it drops to almost zero when the button is pressed?

[Bison]

And with the ignition off, one side of the meter on battery ground, other side on the yellow/red wire, I get continuity, not a dead short but a resistance, when the start button is pressed.

[Bison]

So if I were to bridge from the yellow red wire which shows a voltage drop when the starter button is pressed, to the low side of the relay pull in coil, effectively bypassing the ecu, would my starter button then work?, or might it cause problems with the ecu?. I would disconnect the low voltage wire to the relay and replace it with the bridging wire from the switch

[Wayne Orwig]

So if I were to bridge from the yellow red wire which shows a voltage drop when the starter button is pressed, to the low side of the relay pull in coil, effectively bypassing the ecu, would my starter button then work?, or might it cause problems with the ecu?. I would disconnect the low voltage wire to the relay and replace it with the bridging wire from the switch

The yellow/red should be going to ground when you press the button. Is the switch contact simply a little dirty?

[Bison]

Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the reply.
The switch when measured at the plug drops voltage to almost zero when the button is pressed, the ECU is seeing that, but not telling the relay. I bridged the pink/black wire from the switch plug to the relay pink/black, it now turns over on the button, effectively removing the eco from the circuit. The only problem I have is the redundant pink /black wire I cut that goes into the relay is keeping the warning triangle on the dash. I was wondering if I could attach that through a fuse to any 12v source, fooling the ecU and putting the light out?

[Bison]

I do however think the ECU is not telling the relay a voltage drop is likely caused by a sensor, clutch/stand/neutral/tilt switch, but every one of those is working perfectly, they all check out both by voltage and continuity.

[Bison]

So, that all worked, bike is starting and no warning lights.
Unfortunately I didn't find the problem though. Interestingly, when I measured the voltage on the pink/black wire from the ECU to the relay after cutting it, it was 3V, so the other side of the coil was getting12v and I was seeing that when measuring so not sure how the system works, 12v to one side and 3v to the other, it's always going to be 12v, if the voltage dropped the whole pull in coil would see that drop?It must be something to do with the starter turning automatically until the engine fires, which of course it's not doing now.

[Bison]

What's bothering me now, overthinking it, is most ECU's work on 5V or so, I have 12V going to that pin, although through a 3 amp fuse.

[Bigtime]

   Bison, any updates on your starting problem?

[Bison]

Hi,
No progress as such, another fault has appeared, ( flat spot)I doubt it is linked, but you never know. I'll post if I make progress.

[Bison]

Problem solved, please see my post "flat spot"

[Kiwi_Roy]

It was the ECU?
Can you elaborate on that?
Are you now using a different ECU?
I read through both your threads getting ready for input.
I assume the ECU was not telling the Start relay to engage, it can do that if the bike is dropped and the tipover switch is activated.
It's very important that the ECU is well grounded as the outputs rely on ground to pull the load down, they only switch about 100 mA each but without ground they cannot turn the relays On.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
Looking at the Start Relay (3) pin 1 will b4 +12 Volts
Pin 2 will also be +12 Volts until the ECU pulls it to chassis when Output 1 turns ON.
Pull the relay out and make sure pin 3 of the socket is alive with the key Off or On
I refer to the yellow wire feeding pin 3 as "The weak yellow feed", it needs a direct feed from the battery to work right, The starter solenoid will draw 60 Amps for a split second because it has two coils in parallel until the main contact closes at full travel. None of the Guzzi schematics show the second high current coil that all Guzzis have.
The schematic shows the ECU is grounded to the chassis, not to a pin, it can't hurt to add an additional ground wire.
Corrected Neutral Switch

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Check the voltage of Yellow wire on Ignition Relay #3 on diagram, I think it's the only solid Yellow wire on the relays. You should have close to 12V. I believe this is the wire Wayne tied a good 12V from a main fuse or from your batt w/fuse wire for StartusInteruptus.
Hotwire to solenoid doesn't hurt anything unless you push button while running.

I have named this "the weak yellow wire", the solenoid would like 60 Amps to stroke but because of inbuilt resistance its lucky to get 30, as a consequence it's only pulling at half strength or less. When you take a wire direct from the battery and touch it on the spade connector you will see how its been designed to work.
If you look at the sketch I posted I show one coil pulling 10 Amps, that coil only really has enough strength to hold the solenoid in place once it's cranking, the real hero is the other coil I call the Grunt Coil, that will draw 60 Amps if you beef up the wiring I recommend a 16 gauge all the way from the battery to the solenoid with a really tight spade connector.
Coils are rated in Amp Turns, they both have ~300 turns
The holding coil is 10 x 300 = 3,000 Amp Turns <<<< This is the coil Guzzi always show >>>>
The grunt coil is 60 x 300 = 18,000 Amp Turns (6 x stronger) <<<< This coil doesn't exist on any Guzzi drawing >>>>
==========================================
Some owners prefer to leave all the OEM wiring as stock and instead add a dedicated relay with the coil driven by the factory wiring and the new contacts switching a heavy wire from battery to solenoid.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Again, remove the plastic starter and make sure you can't move the ground connector. How do I know? I went through everything you are describing including a new battery before finding the loose ground.

This is very important, pull the wire off and scrub up the connection with some Vaseline to prevent it corroding, there's several hundred Amps trying to get thru, a tiny fraction of an Ohm is too much.

[Bison]

Hi Roy,
Thanks for your input.
Yes, the status interrupts was done a long time ago, 12v to the relay at all times, and 12v to both the pull in coil wires too, relay changed and then renewed, no joy, and there was continuity from pin 1 on the ECU to the relay. I replaced the ECU, after cleaning many times, including the earth, and I rigged an auxiliary earth from the body of the eco to the battery neg, when hot wired from the switch bypassing the eco it worked fine

[Kiwi_Roy]

I came across a training booklet for the 8 Valve Griso (Read 8 Valve Norge)


So the Fall Sensor will actually stop an engine, I know from experience its also interlocked with the start relay.

[tris]

Hi Roy,
Thanks for your input.
Yes, the status interrupts was done a long time ago, 12v to the relay at all times, and 12v to both the pull in coil wires too, relay changed and then renewed, no joy, and there was continuity from pin 1 on the ECU to the relay. I replaced the ECU, after cleaning many times, including the earth, and I rigged an auxiliary earth from the body of the eco to the battery neg, when hot wired from the switch bypassing the eco it worked fine

Bison did you find a replacement ECU or was it just a temporary  borrow as there is one going in Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/groups/motoguzzimotorcycle/permalink/607142340335623/?sale_post_id=607142340335623&sfnsn=scwspmo&ref=share

[Bison]

Hi Tris,
Thanks for the heads up, I got to keep the one from my pal though.
Alan.

[Bison]

Folks,
Fixed.
Short story. I fried the ecu by jury rigging the start button. Convinced the fault was the tilt switch, unplugged and it ran no probs. Now replaced.  Fitted Ducati 5AM ecu, start button worked, TPS wandered all the time Downloaded the Guzzi EEPROM, wrote it over the Ducati one, TPS now steady, start button working, have done 250 miles, still ok. Hope this helps someone who is unfortunate enough to have a similar problem.
Thanks for all the help
Alan.

[Tom H]

Congrats!

Tom