Author Topic: Norge no power to solenoid  (Read 1595 times)

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2022, 03:41:01 PM »
Yes, it already has the StartusInteruptus mod done, battery voltage, 12.9V at least.
Good to know rigging a start button up is possible, I'll find out when I do a continuity test and voltage test to see if the button is faulty.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2022, 03:45:10 PM by Bison »

Offline guzzisteve

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 10527
  • "Just Ride It"
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2022, 04:34:54 PM »
One of the pins on that relay plug goes to the ECU. Pink/Brown .That's the plug you need to clean, it's real PIA but it might fix it. Sounds like it's only thing left you haven't done.
"Pray through Carlo & your bike shall be healed"
Location: Planet Earth

Online flower_king001

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 872
  • Location: South/Middle/TN
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2022, 04:47:05 PM »
Again, remove the plastic starter and make sure you can't move the ground connector. How do I know? I went through everything you are describing including a new battery before finding the loose ground.
Current Fleet

1971 BMW R90/5
1986 Moto Guzzi Lemans IV 1000
1998 Moto Guzzi 1100 EV
2005 BMW 1200RT
2007 Moto Guzzi Breva 1100

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2022, 05:59:07 AM »
Is there a tip over sensor fitted to the UK bikes?, and if so, where is it located?.
Earths are checked double and triple checked. I get continuity between the blue wire and the pink/black wire when the start button is pressed with no ignition on, but when I switch the ignition and press the button I get no voltage through the blue wire. my switch has a redundant red wire, and the colours don't tally up with the wiring diagram.

Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2022, 05:59:07 AM »

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2022, 07:16:00 AM »
So, I;m getting a voltage drop on the yellow/red wire which goes to the ECU from the switch, 11.4V then press the button and it reduces to 1.4V, so the ecu is dropping the voltage to energise the coil in the relay, but deciding not to, which points yet again to Neutral/sidestand/clutch switch, checked the first two with the meter at the connectors, all ok, so time to take the airbox off andcheck the nuetral switch I suppose

Offline Tom H

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2957
  • Location: So. Cal.
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2022, 10:21:12 AM »
Check any connectors that the wire passes through. Not the first time someone has had a corrosion issue in a connector. Check the big ones in front if the wire goes through it, they are kinda exposed to weather.

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2022, 02:32:51 PM »
Hi Folks,
Well, the ECU plugs were sparkling but I cleaned them anyway, no luck. The only anomaly, if it is that, is the pink/black wire from the starter button to the connector has 11.8V, when you press the button it drops to 0.4V, according to the wiring diagram I'm pretty sure that wire goes to the ECU.
The other wires have 12.8V.

Offline Wayne Orwig

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 13758
    • Hog Mountain weather
  • Location: Hog Mountain
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2022, 02:52:58 PM »
Supposedly, pin 1 of the ECU grey connector feeds the starter relay. Can you measure that too when you press the button?

(maybe a red/pink wire on my schematic)
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2022, 03:16:51 PM »
Yes, 12.4 to 12.8V on all the relay wires except the one going to the solenoid, regardless of what the button is doing. The only voltage drop I see in the whole starter wiring is on the yellow/black wire from the starter button(on the other side of the plug it changes to yellow/red) which when pressed drops from 11.8V to almost zero, around 0.4V

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2022, 03:19:50 PM »
That yellow/red wire goes to pin 28 on the ECU on the blue plug according to the diagram I'm looking at, and yet it drops to almost zero when the button is pressed?

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2022, 03:28:45 PM »
And with the ignition off, one side of the meter on battery ground, other side on the yellow/red wire, I get continuity, not a dead short but a resistance, when the start button is pressed.

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2022, 03:06:59 AM »
So if I were to bridge from the yellow red wire which shows a voltage drop when the starter button is pressed, to the low side of the relay pull in coil, effectively bypassing the ecu, would my starter button then work?, or might it cause problems with the ecu?. I would disconnect the low voltage wire to the relay and replace it with the bridging wire from the switch

Offline Wayne Orwig

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 13758
    • Hog Mountain weather
  • Location: Hog Mountain
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2022, 07:54:53 AM »
So if I were to bridge from the yellow red wire which shows a voltage drop when the starter button is pressed, to the low side of the relay pull in coil, effectively bypassing the ecu, would my starter button then work?, or might it cause problems with the ecu?. I would disconnect the low voltage wire to the relay and replace it with the bridging wire from the switch

The yellow/red should be going to ground when you press the button. Is the switch contact simply a little dirty?
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientists have discovered...."

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2022, 09:09:48 AM »
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the reply.
The switch when measured at the plug drops voltage to almost zero when the button is pressed, the ECU is seeing that, but not telling the relay. I bridged the pink/black wire from the switch plug to the relay pink/black, it now turns over on the button, effectively removing the eco from the circuit. The only problem I have is the redundant pink /black wire I cut that goes into the relay is keeping the warning triangle on the dash. I was wondering if I could attach that through a fuse to any 12v source, fooling the ecU and putting the light out?

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2022, 09:27:20 AM »
I do however think the ECU is not telling the relay a voltage drop is likely caused by a sensor, clutch/stand/neutral/tilt switch, but every one of those is working perfectly, they all check out both by voltage and continuity.

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2022, 10:59:31 AM »
So, that all worked, bike is starting and no warning lights.
Unfortunately I didn't find the problem though. Interestingly, when I measured the voltage on the pink/black wire from the ECU to the relay after cutting it, it was 3V, so the other side of the coil was getting12v and I was seeing that when measuring so not sure how the system works, 12v to one side and 3v to the other, it's always going to be 12v, if the voltage dropped the whole pull in coil would see that drop?It must be something to do with the starter turning automatically until the engine fires, which of course it's not doing now.

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2022, 11:02:07 AM »
What's bothering me now, overthinking it, is most ECU's work on 5V or so, I have 12V going to that pin, although through a 3 amp fuse.

Online Bigtime

  • Hatchling
  • **
  • Posts: 114
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2022, 06:17:11 PM »
   Bison, any updates on your starting problem?

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2022, 02:45:46 AM »
Hi,
No progress as such, another fault has appeared, ( flat spot)I doubt it is linked, but you never know. I'll post if I make progress.

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #49 on: May 01, 2022, 01:50:26 PM »
Problem solved, please see my post "flat spot"

Offline Kiwi_Roy

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 9662
  • Location: New Westminster BC
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #50 on: May 01, 2022, 11:40:06 PM »
It was the ECU?
Can you elaborate on that?
Are you now using a different ECU?
I read through both your threads getting ready for input.
I assume the ECU was not telling the Start relay to engage, it can do that if the bike is dropped and the tipover switch is activated.
It's very important that the ECU is well grounded as the outputs rely on ground to pull the load down, they only switch about 100 mA each but without ground they cannot turn the relays On.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2007_Norge.gif
Looking at the Start Relay (3) pin 1 will b4 +12 Volts
Pin 2 will also be +12 Volts until the ECU pulls it to chassis when Output 1 turns ON.
Pull the relay out and make sure pin 3 of the socket is alive with the key Off or On
I refer to the yellow wire feeding pin 3 as "The weak yellow feed", it needs a direct feed from the battery to work right, The starter solenoid will draw 60 Amps for a split second because it has two coils in parallel until the main contact closes at full travel. None of the Guzzi schematics show the second high current coil that all Guzzis have.
The schematic shows the ECU is grounded to the chassis, not to a pin, it can't hurt to add an additional ground wire.
Corrected Neutral Switch

 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2022, 11:53:08 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Kiwi_Roy

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 9662
  • Location: New Westminster BC
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2022, 05:01:06 AM »
Check the voltage of Yellow wire on Ignition Relay #3 on diagram, I think it's the only solid Yellow wire on the relays. You should have close to 12V. I believe this is the wire Wayne tied a good 12V from a main fuse or from your batt w/fuse wire for StartusInteruptus.
Hotwire to solenoid doesn't hurt anything unless you push button while running.
I have named this "the weak yellow wire", the solenoid would like 60 Amps to stroke but because of inbuilt resistance its lucky to get 30, as a consequence it's only pulling at half strength or less. When you take a wire direct from the battery and touch it on the spade connector you will see how its been designed to work.
If you look at the sketch I posted I show one coil pulling 10 Amps, that coil only really has enough strength to hold the solenoid in place once it's cranking, the real hero is the other coil I call the Grunt Coil, that will draw 60 Amps if you beef up the wiring I recommend a 16 gauge all the way from the battery to the solenoid with a really tight spade connector.
Coils are rated in Amp Turns, they both have ~300 turns
The holding coil is 10 x 300 = 3,000 Amp Turns <<<< This is the coil Guzzi always show >>>>
The grunt coil is 60 x 300 = 18,000 Amp Turns (6 x stronger) <<<< This coil doesn't exist on any Guzzi drawing >>>>
==========================================
Some owners prefer to leave all the OEM wiring as stock and instead add a dedicated relay with the coil driven by the factory wiring and the new contacts switching a heavy wire from battery to solenoid.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2022, 06:09:33 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Kiwi_Roy

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 9662
  • Location: New Westminster BC
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2022, 05:06:14 AM »
Again, remove the plastic starter and make sure you can't move the ground connector. How do I know? I went through everything you are describing including a new battery before finding the loose ground.
This is very important, pull the wire off and scrub up the connection with some Vaseline to prevent it corroding, there's several hundred Amps trying to get thru, a tiny fraction of an Ohm is too much.
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2022, 02:55:44 AM »
Hi Roy,
Thanks for your input.
Yes, the status interrupts was done a long time ago, 12v to the relay at all times, and 12v to both the pull in coil wires too, relay changed and then renewed, no joy, and there was continuity from pin 1 on the ECU to the relay. I replaced the ECU, after cleaning many times, including the earth, and I rigged an auxiliary earth from the body of the eco to the battery neg, when hot wired from the switch bypassing the eco it worked fine

Offline Kiwi_Roy

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 9662
  • Location: New Westminster BC
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2022, 04:43:00 AM »
I came across a training booklet for the 8 Valve Griso (Read 8 Valve Norge)


So the Fall Sensor will actually stop an engine, I know from experience its also interlocked with the start relay.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2022, 04:46:55 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
72 Eldorado
17 V7iii Special
76 Convert
Half a V9 Roamer

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since March 15 1921

Offline tris

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2597
  • Location: United Kingdom
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2022, 04:34:20 PM »
Hi Roy,
Thanks for your input.
Yes, the status interrupts was done a long time ago, 12v to the relay at all times, and 12v to both the pull in coil wires too, relay changed and then renewed, no joy, and there was continuity from pin 1 on the ECU to the relay. I replaced the ECU, after cleaning many times, including the earth, and I rigged an auxiliary earth from the body of the eco to the battery neg, when hot wired from the switch bypassing the eco it worked fine

Bison did you find a replacement ECU or was it just a temporary  borrow as there is one going in Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/groups/motoguzzimotorcycle/permalink/607142340335623/?sale_post_id=607142340335623&sfnsn=scwspmo&ref=share
2017 V9 Roamer
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno" - now sold
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now SOLD
1993 TW125 "POS" - Resting

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #56 on: May 06, 2022, 04:35:49 AM »
Hi Tris,
Thanks for the heads up, I got to keep the one from my pal though.
Alan.

Offline Bison

  • New Egg
  • *
  • Posts: 86
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2022, 04:17:07 PM »
Folks,
Fixed.
Short story. I fried the ecu by jury rigging the start button. Convinced the fault was the tilt switch, unplugged and it ran no probs. Now replaced.  Fitted Ducati 5AM ecu, start button worked, TPS wandered all the time Downloaded the Guzzi EEPROM, wrote it over the Ducati one, TPS now steady, start button working, have done 250 miles, still ok. Hope this helps someone who is unfortunate enough to have a similar problem.
Thanks for all the help
Alan.

Offline Tom H

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 2957
  • Location: So. Cal.
Re: Norge no power to solenoid
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2022, 05:02:10 PM »
Congrats! :thumb:

Tom
2004 Cali EV Touring
1972 Eldo
1970 Ambo V1000
1973 R75/5 SWB with Toaster
2007 HD Street Bob
1953 Triumph 6T (one day it will be on the road!)


Harper's Moto Guzzi : Go Ride , Break Parts, Call me!
Harper's Moto Guzzi. Where we still answer the phone, use the highest quality parts, and also do Transmission, rear drive, and carb rebuilds fast. Call us at 816.697.3411 and get your problems resolved.
http://www.harpermoto.com
Advertise Here
 

20 Ounce Stainless Steel Double Insulated Tumbler with donation credit
Buy a quality tumbler and support the forum at the same time!
Better than a YETI! BPA and Lead free.
Advertise Here