Author Topic: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll  (Read 52883 times)

Offline jas67

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #120 on: March 01, 2016, 05:52:21 PM »
Regarding that kit with a circuit breaker, I don't see the need to add any more circuit protection, as the bike should already have the required circuit protections, no?

The Record fairing lower mount might pose a challenge to mounting the new VR on the Racer.   :shocked:

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Offline Kev m

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #121 on: March 01, 2016, 06:07:02 PM »
I wonder if there's a reason for the circuit breaker though. Is it just an over-voltage circuit protector or something else?

Remember the aftermarket replacement R/R I put on the Jackal, something about the battery feed utilized a sensing circuit that remained on and drained the battery.

I guess it's not to prevent something like that or it would be called something else. But still, makes me wonder.

I assume those that bought from the eBay seller didn't wire in a circuit breaker so you're probably right that it's not necessary.

On the Record fairing, at least you'll be able to adjust wire lengths if you have to reposition the regulator much.

I do still wonder on the V7 II OEM regulator wouldn't work better.

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Offline Zinfan

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #122 on: March 01, 2016, 06:20:10 PM »
I don't know much about electrical circuits but when installing this kit you connect it directly to the battery, you do not use the existing wire harness.  That may explain the need for the protection or maybe is doesn't.

KevM  I did use an adapter plate to mount mine, didn't think about elongating the holes, I guess having the extra plate can add a bit of heat dissipation?

Norge Pilot since I'm taking and posting pictures to show my bike's performance I didn't then decide to take the extra steps of trying to show the actual state of the battery, the idea was to show the bike charging system at idle and 4k rpm and it seemed useful (apparently not) to show it in it's shut off state.   

Ok read a FAQ on the roadstercycle.com webpage and it says regarding the circuit protection

Quote
What's the difference between an auto reset circuit breaker and a maxifuse?

They are both fuses that protect the main positive wire going from the new MOSFET setup to the battery. The circuit breaker is smaller and more compact. They have been used for years in cars and Harley Davidson motorcycles. It will auto reset if it gets tripped. The maxifuse is a bigger fuse that also protects the main positive wire going to the battery from the new MOSFET setup. If it blows you will need an extra with you to replace it. Usually these fuses protect us from ourselves if we are working on our bikes and accidentally touch this wire to ground it will blow the fuse or open the circuit breaker. Very rarely does a bad R/R actually blow a fuse they usually just open and go bad. I've seen them completely burnt up and never blow a fuse.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 06:25:10 PM by Zinfan »

Offline Guzzidad

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #123 on: March 01, 2016, 06:34:16 PM »
   Curiosity is killing me. Has anyone even TRIED what I suggested at the beginning of this thread? Unplug the headlight and then check charging with the bike running. I know this works on my 01EV but I don't know if the same electrical logic was applied to the V7s. I have mine under control but I want to take it a step further and add a relay to turn the headlight on. Maybe two relays, one for low beam and one for high beam. Certainly way less expensive than a Mosfit R/R

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #123 on: March 01, 2016, 06:34:16 PM »

Offline Guzzidad

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #124 on: March 01, 2016, 06:42:05 PM »
   Zinfan's last post just re-enforced what I've been saying. It's not the R/R, it's the wiring. Energizing a relay would cause a far lower voltage drop than lighting up a 55W headlight.

Offline Guzzidad

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #125 on: March 01, 2016, 06:49:07 PM »
   By the way Kev, what DO you do for a living? I recently retired from the corrugated box industry as a maintenance tech. Jack of all trades but master of none.

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2016, 07:02:27 PM »
   By the way Kev, what DO you do for a living? I recently retired from the corrugated box industry as a maintenance tech. Jack of all trades but master of none.

 He plays with his kids and on the internet . Tough job , but someone has to do it , right Kev ? :laugh:

  Dusty

Offline Kev m

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #127 on: March 01, 2016, 07:20:09 PM »
Guzzidad, I put myself through college add a mechanic and have spent the last 2+ decades writing repair manuals.

But I'll admit my experience is often wider than it is deep. I know more a bit about a lot than a lot about a bit. So I'm always learning.

I have been wondering about your point, but if that was the issue, then why would fitting the Mosfit fix it?

I haven't yet looked at the V7 wiring diagram. So I should probably do that next.

Zin, I'm under the impression others have wired the Mosfit into the OEM wiring. I guess we should sort that question out next, I.E. which is better and why.
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Offline Kev m

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2016, 07:21:12 PM »
He plays with his kids and on the internet . Tough job , but someone has to do it , right Kev ? :laugh:

  Dusty

That too... :boozing:
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oldbike54

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #129 on: March 01, 2016, 07:22:34 PM »
That too... :boozing:

 Momma always told me to do something you are good at  :bow:

 Dusty

Offline rbm

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #130 on: March 01, 2016, 07:28:57 PM »
I wonder if there's a reason for the circuit breaker though. Is it just an over-voltage circuit protector or something else?
The circuit interrupter is an over-current protection, as Zinfan pointed out a fuse. In its position being in series with the positive battery lead, it can't detect voltage so can't trigger on an over-voltage situation.

Remember the aftermarket replacement R/R I put on the Jackal, something about the battery feed utilized a sensing circuit that remained on and drained the battery.
Being a series regulator with MOSFET drivers, it goes open circuit when powered down.  MOSFETs have nearly perfect switching characteristics (near zero on resistance, near infinite off resistance) so there will be negligible leakage current and no parasitic battery drain.
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Offline jas67

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2016, 07:42:28 PM »
Remember the aftermarket replacement R/R I put on the Jackal, something about the battery feed utilized a sensing circuit that remained on and drained the battery.
Oh yeah -- that was an annoying problem.

I guess it's not to prevent something like that or it would be called something else. But still, makes me wonder.

I assume those that bought from the eBay seller didn't wire in a circuit breaker so you're probably right that it's not necessary.

On the Record fairing, at least you'll be able to adjust wire lengths if you have to reposition the regulator much.

I do still wonder on the V7 II OEM regulator wouldn't work better.

I wonder too about the V7 II OEM unit. 

As for the eBay one, there is a lot of Chinese-built crap for sale on eBay, I'm a little leery.    I'd be more inclined to use an OEM unit from another Motorcycle Mfg, like maybe the Yamaha that the eBay unit is made for.

Of course, if the Yamaha part is twice as much money, then, it is our duty as Guzzi riders to go with the cheaper solution   :evil:
2017 V7III Special
1977 Le Mans
1974 Eldorado
2017 Triumph Thruxton R
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 2013 848 Evo Corse SE, 1974 750GT, 1970 Mk3d Desmo, 1966 Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250
2016 BMW R1200RS, 80 R100S, 76 R90S ,73 R75/5
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Offline jas67

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #132 on: March 01, 2016, 07:45:41 PM »
He plays with his kids and on the internet . Tough job , but someone has to do it , right Kev ? :laugh:

  Dusty

That's only part of the story, he also rides his motorcycles.

In his defense, he also cooks all the meals for his family (he's quite a good cook too).
2017 V7III Special
1977 Le Mans
1974 Eldorado
2017 Triumph Thruxton R
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 2013 848 Evo Corse SE, 1974 750GT, 1970 Mk3d Desmo, 1966 Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250
2016 BMW R1200RS, 80 R100S, 76 R90S ,73 R75/5
76 Honda CB400F, 67 305 Super Hawk, 68 CL175

Offline Guzzidad

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #133 on: March 01, 2016, 07:50:43 PM »
   Thanks Kev. OK, here's my point. The original R/R, at least on my bike, senses voltage through the headlight circuit. But, on my bike, when the headlight is on it causes a voltage drop of 2V. The R/R reacts and sends 15+ volts back to the battery. Zinfed states the Mosfit R/R is wired direct to the battery. That's why it doesn't over charge. Wire the original R/R direct to the battery and it will probably perform the same as a Mosfit. As I've mentioned before, I think the wiring from the headlight relay, through the harness, to the bulb is too small to carry the load causing a voltage drop and fooling the R/R that the battery needs help. Now, I know this is the case on my bike but I remind you, The V7 might be different. But how hard is it to check?

Offline jas67

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #134 on: March 01, 2016, 08:03:14 PM »
Well, I have TWO V7's so, I SHOULD be able to vote twice.    The poll won't let me.
So, add another one to the 15V and over count.

EDIT: both bikes were just taken off a float charge, so, the batteries are fully charged.

My 2013 V7R is 15.30 Volts at any RPM from idle up to 4,000.
My 2014 V7 Special is 15.50 Volts at any RPM from idle up to 4,000.

Both bikes have LED lighting resulting in a 30W lower power draw.      The V7S had heated grips, which draw 27W on high, so, with those on high, the power draw should be what a bike with stock light draws.    The voltage was still 15.40 Volts.

I will definitely be installing a MOSFET regulator on the V7R, but, am inclined to go the warranty route with the V7S, not because I expect that to actually fix it, but, more to send a message to Guzzi that there is a problem.

When that one results in too high a voltage, I'll install a MOSFET regulator on it too.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2016, 05:22:53 AM by jas67 »
2017 V7III Special
1977 Le Mans
1974 Eldorado
2017 Triumph Thruxton R
2013 Ducati Monster 796, 2013 848 Evo Corse SE, 1974 750GT, 1970 Mk3d Desmo, 1966 Monza 250
2007 Vespa GTS250
2016 BMW R1200RS, 80 R100S, 76 R90S ,73 R75/5
76 Honda CB400F, 67 305 Super Hawk, 68 CL175

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2016, 08:13:41 PM »
I'm not sure if this helps but at idle there was no movement on my meter when I switched on high beams along with turn signal and brake light.  I'm good at 14.24 from 2K to 6K, which is as high as I tested.
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Offline Kev m

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #136 on: March 01, 2016, 08:30:36 PM »
   Thanks Kev. OK, here's my point. The original R/R, at least on my bike, senses voltage through the headlight circuit. But, on my bike, when the headlight is on it causes a voltage drop of 2V. The R/R reacts and sends 15+ volts back to the battery. Zinfed states the Mosfit R/R is wired direct to the battery. That's why it doesn't over charge. Wire the original R/R direct to the battery and it will probably perform the same as a Mosfit. As I've mentioned before, I think the wiring from the headlight relay, through the harness, to the bulb is too small to carry the load causing a voltage drop and fooling the R/R that the battery needs help. Now, I know this is the case on my bike but I remind you, The V7 might be different. But how hard is it to check?

Todd mentioned, and I haven't had the time (yet, didn't have the need till this morning) to verify that there is no separate battery voltage sensing circuit.

However, if that's a mistake I completely understand your point. I've seen similar voltage drops in the circuits of other bikes (like my B11 that consistently showed lower voltage at the dashboard than at the battery).

King, what's the year and model?  I'm really curious if this is a bad batch of R/Rs or is it a wiring problem like Guzzidad is wondering.
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Offline rbm

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #137 on: March 01, 2016, 09:01:01 PM »
Below is an extract from the 2008 V7 schematic.  The same circuit is also depicted on the 2010-2013 V7 schematic.

The R/R output is as direct to the battery as possible.  It doesn't appear to have a voltage sense circuit.  Looking at the connectors on the R/R, the pins are robust spade connectors, capable of large currents.  In my mind, that confirms that the wiring is to provide a heavy gauge low resistance wiring path from the R/R to the bike's circuitry to power the motorcycle (and to charge the battery).

I'd be suspicious of the V7II OEM R/R.  It's a black box compared to the aftermarket Shindengen R/R (is it series or shunt? Who makes it?).  There is good evidence to suggest the latest OEM regulator is also regulating excessively high (>15V).  Also, has anyone confirmed that the plugs are compatible between the two OEM versions?

If I was to replace the R/R on my V7, (1) I'd buy the Shindengen SH847 (higher current rating of 50A which gets derated by 30% when wiring in a 2-wire single phase alternator), (2) make a jumper cable to adapt the OEM spade connector to the Furukawa QLW connector used on the SH847, (3) wire the R/R directly to the battery and bypass the OEM wiring but keep the connection back to the 30A main fuse, and (4) make an adapter plate to mount the R/R.  But that's just me; others can choose their own solution.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 09:06:11 PM by rbm »
- Robert

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Offline pikipiki

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #138 on: March 01, 2016, 11:43:04 PM »
Series regulation instead of shunt?  That just sounds better.  Any source for the 847?

I have a 2016 V7 II with the new regulator.  About 13.6v at idle and 14.7 at 3K.  If I'm going to the trouble of replacing the RR, I wouldn't use one.  There are certainly better out there.  Are the plugs the same?  Dunno.  Can't see 'em.

The alternator is a stator type/ permanent magnet its more likely to be damaged powering a resistive circuit than an open one.
shunt is generally preferred for this reason.

Offline pikipiki

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #139 on: March 02, 2016, 01:33:18 AM »
Regarding that kit with a circuit breaker, I don't see the need to add any more circuit protection, as the bike should already have the required circuit protections, no?


It's a complete kit including replacement wiring to the battery which some cusomers will need. Circuit brakers react quicker than fuses and can be reset.
It's best to replace everything and use the circuit braker unless you have good reason not to. The wiring is very similar to the OEM in this case. On other bikes the OEM wiring may be different and relate to diferent OEM r/r design.

Offline Zinfan

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #140 on: March 02, 2016, 01:54:58 AM »

Zin, I'm under the impression others have wired the Mosfit into the OEM wiring. I guess we should sort that question out next, I.E. which is better and why.

I remember at the time I bought my kit the owner of the site saying that his harness wiring was superior to most OEM harnesses and highly recommended using his to go directly to the battery.  I see he does have some "Crimp and Go" kits that you just cut off the OEM harness connectors and add his in.  It seemed to be worthwhile to go for the direct route using his wires for the best chance of success for me.

Offline Muzz

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #141 on: March 02, 2016, 02:50:55 AM »
All this carry on got me to go and check out the Breva 750, which incidentally, does for some reason have a high parasitic drain. battery will go dead flat in a month. When on it's sabbatical over winter I charge it with a smart charger every 3 weeks, rather than have it on a trickle charge. Works for me. <shrug>

After 24 hours from the last run the battery was reading 12.5 volts. A bit low but it is only the second one I have had in the bike over 12 years. Probably 5 years old. On cranking it dropped to just over 10 volts. Ok I guess for an old battery. The biggest difference I see is in the voltage at idle. Someone quoted 13.5 volts for a V711. At 1000rpm mine sat at 11.9, lights on of course. 2000rpm it was 13.2 and at about 3000 is was about 13.6. The latter figure is about what I would expect after cranking an old battery. Did not check it when I got home but I would expect it to be about 14volts as the battery charged up.

The over 15 volts being quoted to my mind is indeed excessive. With a good fully charged battery my understanding on a car at least, is that the voltage would top out at 14.4 to 14.8.

I am now in the  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: phase of this thread to see what transpires. I wish you guys all the best.
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Offline pikipiki

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #142 on: March 02, 2016, 06:39:13 AM »
I remember at the time I bought my kit the owner of the site saying that his harness wiring was superior to most OEM harnesses and highly recommended using his to go directly to the battery.  I see he does have some "Crimp and Go" kits that you just cut off the OEM harness connectors and add his in.  It seemed to be worthwhile to go for the direct route using his wires for the best chance of success for me.

If you use the kit wiring you get a circuit braker and avoid cutting OEM harness. I'd do that, make it easier to remove at a later date if you want to swap your bike and want to keep your after market r/r
If you do that tape up the oem connector so it wont get dirt in it.
note some batteries have double terminals which helps.

Offline Kev m

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #143 on: March 02, 2016, 07:23:14 AM »
I dunno, I hate adding another loom. I'd rather use the OEM wiring. It's a neater solution.
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Offline Zinfan

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #144 on: March 02, 2016, 10:49:08 AM »
If you use the kit wiring you get a circuit braker and avoid cutting OEM harness. I'd do that, make it easier to remove at a later date if you want to swap your bike and want to keep your after market r/r
If you do that tape up the oem connector so it wont get dirt in it.

This is what I did.  Of course if Kev M decides to splice into the existing harness the results could be used to answer Guzzidad's thoughts that it might be the harness and not the R/R causing the overcharging issue.

Offline Zinfan

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #145 on: March 02, 2016, 10:53:30 AM »
Not related to the R/R but would it show me anything if I turned up my heated grips, plugged in the heated jacket set to high and put the headlight on high beam and measured charging voltage?  Just as a check of the bikes electrical capacity and if I'm exceeding it?

Offline Kev m

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #146 on: March 02, 2016, 10:54:28 AM »
This is what I did.  Of course if Kev M decides to splice into the existing harness the results could be used to answer Guzzidad's thoughts that it might be the harness and not the R/R causing the overcharging issue.

That would be an interesting test and maybe we should go that route just to see.

I do have to wonder who are the 7 that have responded to the poll so far that their 1TB V7s (not V7IIs) are testing in range and whether or not that is still with the original regulator. Because if the answer is YES (OEM regulator) one would think it's not the wiring).

That said, I believe Guzzidad's question about the wiring was regarding a sensing circuit that we are being told isn't used by this regulator so that particular portion of the theory is moot.
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Offline pikipiki

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #147 on: March 02, 2016, 11:25:14 AM »
Not related to the R/R but would it show me anything if I turned up my heated grips, plugged in the heated jacket set to high and put the headlight on high beam and measured charging voltage?  Just as a check of the bikes electrical capacity and if I'm exceeding it?
I think if you fully charged on a tender then went for a ride with your heated kit for an hour then on return reconnected the tender see how long to get battery back up to charge. If it takes a while buy the mosfet r/r then retry the same heated journey. I would hope you'd get an extra 25w with the mosfet and not drain your battery.

Offline SeanF

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #148 on: March 02, 2016, 11:31:16 AM »
I'll be replacing the Reg/Rec in my '14 v7 Special tonight with a FH020AA, using the existing wiring.
I am seeing 15.2v at the battery terminals at 3k+ rpm.
Will post results.

Offline drlapo

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #149 on: March 02, 2016, 11:43:37 AM »
I used the existing wiring when I installed the Mosfet unit this weekend.
I ran a 10ga wire from the VR to the two output wires in the harness. Same on the negative side
This method reuses the bike's original fuse
All is well with steady voltage of 14.2 volts

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