Author Topic: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll  (Read 51804 times)

Offline jas67

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #210 on: March 05, 2016, 10:28:04 PM »
Regarding the comments about current drawn as volts go up, yes, heating elements and incandescent lights will draw more amps (and, of course watts) as volts go up.    The incandescent lights will burn much brighter at 15 volts, and also burn out much sooner.

Modern LED headlights have special digital current regulators that use PWD (pulse-width-modulation) to accurately delivery the correct amount of current (amps) to the LEDs over a wide range of input voltage.    Due to the design of these regulators, the LED lamp assembly will draw a consistent amount of power (watts), thus, lower current (amps) at higher volts.
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Offline drlapo

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #211 on: March 06, 2016, 11:06:46 AM »
The op's problem with the gloves was solved by a VR swap

Offline swordds

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #212 on: March 06, 2016, 07:49:59 PM »
Are they thermostatically controlled?

Yes, my gloves are thermostatically controlled. I  rode with them on my V7II and they worked great but I couldn't leave them on high for more than 20 minutes because it was in the mid-60s here and they were too hot. I didn't notice any electrical problems or the headlight getting dim and the battery worked fine after using my gloves. Of course this doesn't prove the alternator can handle the load because I only used them for about 50 miles. And now it might not get cold enough to give them a real test until next winter, and by then this thread may be dead.
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Offline swordds

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #213 on: March 06, 2016, 08:09:04 PM »
Regarding the heated gloves, the figures I used above were a bit of a guess but some alternate figures can be found below although I dont trust these because if you went by these ones a V7II with abs would require more power than the alternator puts out? ABS must use a good few watts? Im guessing some stuff has been getting more efficient recently and lower power alternator is about saving power too. whatever the case theres not going to be any excess power for gloves.
http://www.powerlet.com/learningCenter/excessCapacity

Yes, but an additional concern noted was does the V7II alternator have enough excess power to handle additional loads such as gloves. Mine handles my gloves, no problems.
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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #213 on: March 06, 2016, 08:09:04 PM »

Offline Dofin

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #214 on: March 06, 2016, 09:25:46 PM »
New Guzzi owner!!  Long time bike rider, mostly vintage, I like the old stuff.  I have a 2015 V7 Stone, just got it last week gently previously owned 5400 miles.  Already payed for the V7 when I found the over voltage posts here!  So I was concerned about the over voltage.  I had a nice ride yesterday 150 miles, did the voltage checks today!!

Battery at rest   12.56 volts
switch on           12.36 volts
while starting     10.68 volts
1000 rpm          13.10 volts
3000rpm            14.30 volts
4000rpm            14.50  volts

I am relieved!!  that all seems well.  I have learned on this line of questioning that it is very important that I keep an eye on the wiring, connections, and battery condition.  If the wiring or connections appear scorched or slightly heated they need immediate attention to preclude Rectifier/regulator damage.  Insure that battery connections and battery condition is monitored! 

Great to have a forum to visit when I have concerns!  I will get my donation sent in support!  Also will do the poll.
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Offline drlapo

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #215 on: March 07, 2016, 09:33:36 AM »
How did you get a "good" regulator when even Guzzi specs 15.1 volts?
Is your regulator technically"bad"?
Anyway good for you

Offline pikipiki

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #216 on: March 07, 2016, 10:22:14 AM »
New Guzzi owner!!  Long time bike rider, mostly vintage, I like the old stuff.  I have a 2015 V7 Stone, just got it last week gently previously owned 5400 miles.  Already payed for the V7 when I found the over voltage posts here!  So I was concerned about the over voltage.  I had a nice ride yesterday 150 miles, did the voltage checks today!!

Battery at rest   12.56 volts
switch on           12.36 volts
while starting     10.68 volts
1000 rpm          13.10 volts
3000rpm            14.30 volts
4000rpm            14.50  volts

I am relieved!!  that all seems well.  I have learned on this line of questioning that it is very important that I keep an eye on the wiring, connections, and battery condition.  If the wiring or connections appear scorched or slightly heated they need immediate attention to preclude Rectifier/regulator damage.  Insure that battery connections and battery condition is monitored! 

Great to have a forum to visit when I have concerns!  I will get my donation sent in support!  Also will do the poll.

2015?....
and your alternator has 3 yellow wires is three phase and your regulator is different. The issue I with the 6 wire regulators.

Update on refitting my oem regulator after fixing the frayed wire.
Still around 15v across battery terminals actually up 0.1v (im putting that down to cleaning the R/R output connector that was swimming in grease) . (at least mines not 15.4) For sake of it I thought Id measure voltage somewhere else in the circuit. Rear light thats about as far away from the battery and very easy to access the connectors behid the bulb. 14.5v across rear laigh bulb? hmm. I kind of figured it would be less but thought it would only be 0.1-0.2v drop.

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #217 on: March 07, 2016, 12:22:58 PM »
How did you get a "good" regulator when even Guzzi specs 15.1 volts?
Is your regulator technically"bad"?
Anyway good for you

That's the part of this mystery that just stumps me.

BTW, I found a schematic online today that supposedly is for the Ducati Engergia Regulator Guzzi Part # 32703810 which was used on the N7, B7, and V7C - part of the schematic reads:

Voltage Regulator 15.5 +/- 0.5 V

Go figure.

According to the online parts manuals at Harpers that particular regulator was replaced starting on the 2011 V7R and all dry alternator V7 Stone/Special/Racers with # 883878 which appears to be the one that's giving everyone fits.

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Offline SeanF

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #218 on: March 07, 2016, 12:30:23 PM »
New Guzzi owner!!

-snip-

Great to have a forum to visit when I have concerns!  I will get my donation sent in support!  Also will do the poll.

Welcome!  :thumb:

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #219 on: March 07, 2016, 12:36:06 PM »
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Offline jas67

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #220 on: March 07, 2016, 05:24:41 PM »
That's the part of this mystery that just stumps me.

BTW, I found a schematic online today that supposedly is for the Ducati Engergia Regulator Guzzi Part # 32703810 which was used on the N7, B7, and V7C - part of the schematic reads:

Voltage Regulator 15.5 +/- 0.5 V

Go figure.

According to the online parts manuals at Harpers that particular regulator was replaced starting on the 2011 V7R and all dry alternator V7 Stone/Special/Racers with # 883878 which appears to be the one that's giving everyone fits.

Would the old, pre 2011 regulator be a plug and play solution?
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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #221 on: March 07, 2016, 06:00:38 PM »
Would the old, pre 2011 regulator be a plug and play solution?

AFAIK different input plug. Pins look too narrow.

But like I said, the schematic on Euromotoelectrics claims it was designed for Voltage Regulation 15.5 +/- 0.5V which would seem to defeat the purpose.

UNLESS there was usually about a 1V drop on the major circuits.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 06:01:34 PM by Kev m »
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Offline jas67

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #222 on: March 07, 2016, 09:24:18 PM »
Kev, Cam & I are going to install PH020AA's on our bikes.
I will be making adapter plates from aluminum (that's aluminium for most of the rest of the world  :wink:) 2x1/4" bar stock.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2016, 09:25:15 PM by jas67 »
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Offline drlapo

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #223 on: March 08, 2016, 07:34:36 AM »
No adapter plate is needed to mount the Mosfet VR.
The stock mounting holes can be easily elongated with a file or rotary cutter, 1/4"
It takes 10 minutes
2 small spacers should be used on the mounting bolts to keep the VR wires away from the front engine cover

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #224 on: March 08, 2016, 08:03:43 AM »
No adapter plate is needed to mount the Mosfet VR.
The stock mounting holes can be easily elongated with a file or rotary cutter, 1/4"
It takes 10 minutes
2 small spacers should be used on the mounting bolts to keep the VR wires away from the front engine cover

I THINK the 3 of us are in agreement that we don't want to un-necessarily alter the frame (even in such a minor way).

Plus it gives us more freedom to position the VR just where we want it, not in the way of things like Cam's crashbars, or Jay's Record fairing.

Luckily Jay has a friend with some machining tools.

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Offline drlapo

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #225 on: March 08, 2016, 02:00:11 PM »
The plate offered by roadster cycle for $20 + shipping is nice

Offline O

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #226 on: March 08, 2016, 03:34:00 PM »
Just woke up my bike after winter hibernation.  It fired right up after 2 months in the basement without a battery tender or other such device.

I'm seeing 14.2 at idle, and 15.2 at 3-4000 rpm.  Thoughts?
Owen

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Online Kev m

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #227 on: March 08, 2016, 03:51:51 PM »
Just woke up my bike after winter hibernation.  It fired right up after 2 months in the basement without a battery tender or other such device.

I'm seeing 14.2 at idle, and 15.2 at 3-4000 rpm.  Thoughts?

As I've posted on Guzzitech (and probably in this thread, I dunno they're getting big).

MY OPINION is that your bike is operating AT ABOUT what Guzzi intended it to, but that PERSONALLY I'd replace the Regulator.

Here's a rough summary of what my research this past few weeks suggest:

* Many traditional battery and charging system sources suggest 14.4 volts as the idea max long term charging rate for a lead acid battery.
* AGM batteries (like used by the V7s), especially if discharged/deep cycles, can benefit from a slightly higher charging rate and won't be immediately damaged by high 14's / low 15's.
* Yuasa themselves (I'm told they are the manufacturer of the V7 AGM battery) recommends a charging system that puts out 14.4-14.8 volts for their AGM batteries.
* Moto Guzzi states in their service manual for the 2012-14 1TB Stone/Special/Racer (with the single-phase charging system and dry stator) the charging system tests normally if it shows 13.0-15.0 Volts @ 3-5k rpm.**
* Online sources (EuroMotoElectrics) show the regulator for the PREVIOUS generation V7 (N7/B7/V7C) show a replacement regulator that is supposedly set to 15.1 Volts, and even odder, the Ducati Energia regulator schematic they show states "Voltage Regulation 15.5 +/- 0.5V".

**BUT BUT BUT and this the odd thing. The previous generation bikes SEEM to all be testing in the 14.something range, AS DO MOST OF THE CURRENT GENERATION (2015 and later V7 and V7II with the 3-phase charging system and wet stator). It's just the early 1TB motors that seem to be regularly testing in the 15.2-15.5 volt range.

* Todd at Guzzitech claims that he has seen some Cam sensors and ECU's that were damaged by excessive charging rates on the early 1TB motors. HOWEVER I BELIEVE THAT IN EVERY CASE THE REGULATOR HAD FAILED AND WAS SPIKING VOLTAGES INTO THE 16-17 volt range at speed. I have not yet seen a report where damage occurred from the low 15 volt charging rate (other than possibly a shortened battery life, my own battery seems to be showing some signs after 3+ years of diminished capacity next to older batteries in my garage)

Now taking ALL of that into consideration is how I arrived at my opinion that Guzzi for WHATEVER REASON decided this high charging rate was acceptable (my swag is that perhaps the high charge rate would provide better charging in short run urban environments where the V7 might be popular). I don't think I would ever have a problem IF MY REGULATOR CONTINUED TO HOLD VOLTAGES TO THE LOW 15's.

HOWEVER, since a few regulators have failed and allowed dangerously high voltages to damage MUCH MORE EXPENSIVE BITS LIKE THE ECU, and since the current charge rate seems to be damaging by battery (taking possibly years off its life). I HAVE DECIDED TO PROACTIVELY REPLACE MY REGULATOR.

I would advice you to also for these reasons.

YMMV.




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Offline pikipiki

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #228 on: March 08, 2016, 03:57:42 PM »
For anyone who has a removed alternator,
Take 2 9v batteries, the small common ones attach these across the yellow wires (18v) input to r/r, attach a lightbulb (any incandescant bulb should be fine 110v 12v, ok not a 6v) accross the red green. now test voltage across the lightbulb see if still get 15-15.4v
18v => Rugulator kaput.
You should get same output as when on bike unless the AGM battery acting as a capacitor has something to do with the high voltage or more likely a poor earth on the battery or regulator is the cause.

regarding the replacement mosfet with slightly lower voltage should waiste less power and has been shown to be good if fitting heated grips/gloves etc.
but worth noting a mosfet is generally more likely to pop than a zener diode!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 04:12:01 PM by pikipiki »

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #229 on: March 08, 2016, 06:18:53 PM »
Are you comfortable with those numbers?  Most cars operate at about a 14v charging rate.  That's what I base my opinions on.

I would think cars are a bad example because for decades there hasn't been one without a battery sensing circuit like the V7 and because I think most still don't use AGM batteries.
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Offline O

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #230 on: March 08, 2016, 06:47:03 PM »
First off, Kev m, thanks for the detailed summary so far.  Much appreciated.  I would agree with your advice, except...I just got back from the first ride of the season (about 62 when I left, and 50 now, crazy for early March in New England, but I digress) and retested the voltage. 

With what I presume is now a fully charged battery, I now get 12.8 at idle, and just barely touch 14.5 (14.45 actually) at 4000 rpm. 

I'm guessing that initially, the regulator was just compensating for a slightly weakened battery fresh out of hibernation.  Now that it's fully charged, the regulator is regulating right in the sweet spot.  If this hypothesis is correct, those of you that only tested voltage once fresh out of storage, you may want to take another look before changing out the regulator.   
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Offline O

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #231 on: March 08, 2016, 06:48:52 PM »
Also, in the interest of science, when I took the poll, I selected "too much."  Knowing what I now know, I should have chosen "just right."
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Offline rbm

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #232 on: March 08, 2016, 07:09:54 PM »
I just got back from the first ride of the season (about 62 when I left, and 50 now
So, you became 12 years younger?  Fantastic!
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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #233 on: March 08, 2016, 07:56:35 PM »
First off, Kev m, thanks for the detailed summary so far.  Much appreciated.  I would agree with your advice, except...I just got back from the first ride of the season (about 62 when I left, and 50 now, crazy for early March in New England, but I digress) and retested the voltage. 

With what I presume is now a fully charged battery, I now get 12.8 at idle, and just barely touch 14.5 (14.45 actually) at 4000 rpm. 

I'm guessing that initially, the regulator was just compensating for a slightly weakened battery fresh out of hibernation.  Now that it's fully charged, the regulator is regulating right in the sweet spot.  If this hypothesis is correct, those of you that only tested voltage once fresh out of storage, you may want to take another look before changing out the regulator.

Well, I'm not the electrical engineer, so I'll leave that to Jay or some one smarter than me to explain if there's a battery sense circuit or not. But I was told not. And if true the RR doesn't compensate for a discharged battery per se.

But for the record, to be certain myself. I charged my battery the night before my test. Then I rode about 60 miles and compared results from the cold start to the warm operation at the end of the ride. Peak voltages were identical.


So I can't explain your results. Either there was a testing problem OR I've been misinformed. Or there is something else in the system that can effect voltages.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2016, 07:58:03 PM by Kev m »
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Offline O

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #234 on: March 08, 2016, 08:43:33 PM »
So, you became 12 years younger?  Fantastic!

Hah!  Poorly worded on my part, and a reference to the unseasonably warm temps.  Though it would be cool if Guzzi offered a time machine option.  I can't imagine the issues they'd have with a flux capacitor though...  Thankfully, in reality I'm not yet at either of those, shall we say, benchmarks of wisdom.


Well, I'm not the electrical engineer, so I'll leave that to Jay or some one smarter than me to explain if there's a battery sense circuit or not. But I was told not. And if true the RR doesn't compensate for a discharged battery per se.

But for the record, to be certain myself. I charged my battery the night before my test. Then I rode about 60 miles and compared results from the cold start to the warm operation at the end of the ride. Peak voltages were identical.


So I can't explain your results. Either there was a testing problem OR I've been misinformed. Or there is something else in the system that can effect voltages.

Hmmm, if the regulator is dumb as suspected, than my testing must have been off, though I did test several times both before and after the ride.  I'll check again tomorrow, since it's supposed to touch 70 degrees.  Thank you El Nino!
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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #235 on: March 08, 2016, 08:52:32 PM »
Hmmm, if the regulator is dumb as suspected, than my testing must have been off, though I did test several times both before and after the ride.  I'll check again tomorrow, since it's supposed to touch 70 degrees.  Thank you El Nino!

Or there's some other variable that no one has identified yet.
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Offline jas67

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #236 on: March 08, 2016, 09:29:35 PM »
Well, I'm not the electrical engineer, so I'll leave that to Jay or some one smarter than me to explain if there's a battery sense circuit or not.

From looking at the schematic, it looks like the regulator just senses voltage at it's own output.
A remote sense lead would only serve the purpose of it regulating so that the voltage at the remote sense lead point is at the desired voltage.

Voltage regulators don't "know" how charged or discharged the battery is.   They attempted to maintain a specified output voltage.   If the batter is extremely discharged, it can drag this voltage down below the set point of the regulator, simply because the alternator can't keep the input voltage to the regulator high enough.   This is also the case when running heavy loads such has heated gear, for a total load approaching or exceeding the capacity of the alternator.

I know that on my V7C, when riding at night with heated gear an the high beam on, I could see the headlight dim with each cycle of the heat controller.
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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #237 on: March 09, 2016, 12:13:38 AM »
BTW, I found a schematic online today that supposedly is for the Ducati Engergia Regulator Guzzi Part # 32703810 which was used on the N7, B7, and V7C - part of the schematic reads:

Voltage Regulator 15.5 +/- 0.5 V


Someone thinks 16V is acceptable?
Gosh!

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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #238 on: March 09, 2016, 05:38:23 AM »
From looking at the schematic, it looks like the regulator just senses voltage at it's own output.
A remote sense lead would only serve the purpose of it regulating so that the voltage at the remote sense lead point is at the desired voltage.

Voltage regulators don't "know" how charged or discharged the battery is.   They attempted to maintain a specified output voltage.   If the batter is extremely discharged, it can drag this voltage down below the set point of the regulator, simply because the alternator can't keep the input voltage to the regulator high enough.   This is also the case when running heavy loads such has heated gear, for a total load approaching or exceeding the capacity of the alternator.

I know that on my V7C, when riding at night with heated gear an the high beam on, I could see the headlight dim with each cycle of the heat controller.

Ok, thanks. That makes sense.  :thumb:

But how does that explain O's results in this case?

And also, am I mistaken in my impressions of auto charging circuits? Do they not use a remote sense lead and reduce charge at some point in operation?

I could swear that I've seen in multiple manuals to make sure the battery is NOT fully charged when testing charging system output. If that a common myth or what am I misunderstanding?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 05:40:35 AM by Kev m »
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Re: 2013 - 2015 V7 over voltage problem & poll
« Reply #239 on: March 09, 2016, 05:14:07 PM »
Just got back from a nice ride to my favorite brewery, 130 miles round trip, and measurements were close to yesterday's measurements, both before and after the ride. 

14 and 15.1 at startup; 12.9 and 14.3 after the ride. 

I'm only using a cheapo Craftsman multimeter, but I checked it against a couple 9 volt batteries just to make sure it wasn't completely out of whack, and got readings close to 9V. 

Where's the "scratching my head" icon when you need it?

Owen

2014 V7 Special


Harper's Moto Guzzi
Harper's Moto Guzzi. Where we still answer the phone, use the highest quality parts, and also do Transmission, rear drive, and carb rebuilds fast. Call us at 816.697.3411 and get your problems resolved.
http://www.harpermoto.com
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Win a 2005 Harley Road King and help a great cause.
Limited number of tickets to be sold.
https://go.eventgroovefundraising.com/pipesforpupraffle/Campaign
Advertise Here