2002 V11 LeMans Gearbox Issues

[CSPRider]

First time posting, as I just acquired my first Moto Guzzi a few weeks ago, and have begun the indoctrination!  Unfortunately, I have a major issue since flushing the gearbox oil yesterday....

Looking for any help or suggestions in regards to basically no ability to shift since replacing the gearbox oil (Redline Heavy Shockproof gear). At first it was good up to 3rd, but started finding a false neutral when attempting the 3-4 upshift, and also on the downshift (once I was able to find the next gear). At this point I can't get it to go into gear at all... One side piece of information that could be pertinent is I did adjust the shift linkage right before changing the oil. Note: The bike shifted normally during the warm up ride (post shift linkage adjustment, pre oil change).

What am I missing here? Is there some requirement outside dropping the old oil and adding the new? Refill was exactly to the manual specs (29 oz) and showing fine in the level window...

Appreciate any V11 specific advice here, and also if anyone knows of a good MG independent shop in SE Pennsylvania or nearby please share contact. Thanks in advance!

[guzzisteve]

Go back to were the shift linkage worked before adjustment. Could be an arm or linkage part is hitting some other part before it can get far enough to be in gear. Inspect everything.

[CSPRider]

Adding a few pictures for reference.  I removed the shift linkage from the (aftermarket) rear sets, and still unable to change gears using the arm protruding from the transmission.  I am thinking something internal but kind of at a loss here as to what that might be... Also bled the clutch this morning in an effort to take that out of the equation...

[Chuck in Indiana]

At this point I can't get it to go into gear at all.

It *could* be the very common "pawl spring" issue that just happened at the same time. Certainly sounds like it if you can't change gears. Does the lever move?
We solved that issue a few years ago on the V11S forum. Belonging there is required  if you have a Sport. It *is* the knowledge base on the V11S.
https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/forum/5-technical-topics/

[pehayes]

I removed the shift linkage from the (aftermarket) rear sets, and still unable to change gears using the arm protruding from the transmission.

Now that the linkage is disconnected,  HOW are you trying to move the exposed external lever?  There is a lot of leverage involved so it may take a surprising amount of force, maybe more than you could do with your fingers.  Also, the Guzzi transmission will likely NOT shift gears unless the bits are moving internally.  Either the engine has to run or the rear wheel has to roll.  Do you have a centerstand?  Have someone roll the rear wheel while you try the shifting action.  If it is the pawl spring as mentioned above, it can be repaired externally without removing the engine or transmission.

Report back.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[CSPRider]

It *could* be the very common "pawl spring" issue that just happened at the same time. Certainly sounds like it if you can't change gears. Does the lever move?
We solved that issue a few years ago on the V11S forum. Belonging there is required  if you have a Sport. It *is* the knowledge base on the V11S.
https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/forum/5-technical-topics/

Thanks Chuck.  I have been reading about the spring issues, but of course there are pages and pages of information out there on the topic...  Is this something that can be replaced without removing the transmission?  To answer your question:  The shifter can be moved, but it's not engaging any gears but would feels like 3rd at this point; can't get it back into neutral that's for sure.

I am Chuck too and when encountering another I always say "two Chuck's don't make a right" 

[CSPRider]

Now that the linkage is disconnected,  HOW are you trying to move the exposed external lever?  There is a lot of leverage involved so it may take a surprising amount of force, maybe more than you could do with your fingers.  Also, the Guzzi transmission will likely NOT shift gears unless the bits are moving internally.  Either the engine has to run or the rear wheel has to roll.  Do you have a centerstand?  Have someone roll the rear wheel while you try the shifting action.  If it is the pawl spring as mentioned above, it can be repaired externally without removing the engine or transmission.

Report back.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

Hi Patrick- Appreciate the response.  Yes I have a stand, and tried moving the lever with both the engine running and not (using a suitable pair of large pliers to achieve the required force).  No joy either way and the bike is now in a 'neutral' state with no neutral light on the dash.  Based on where it was when I pulled it in the garage it's somewhere between 2nd and 4th gear.  Good to hear the spring job isn't too laborious, but just seems odd the spring decided to fail the same day I changed the fluid.

[fotoguzzi]

02 is the year with the most spring failures but I see an Ohlins shock that didn’t come on the 2002’s. What color is your bike and is the engine paint dull black and bubbling?

[LowRyter]

Thanks Chuck.  I have been reading about the spring issues, but of course there are pages and pages of information out there on the topic...  Is this something that can be replaced without removing the transmission?  To answer your question:  The shifter can be moved, but it's not engaging any gears but would feels like 3rd at this point; can't get it back into neutral that's for sure.

I am Chuck too and when encountering another I always say "two Chuck's don't make a right" 

Like Chuck said go the Lemans site.  The transmission doesn't have to come out.  Access is in the cover.  Chuck and the guys have designed a better spring that can be purchased from one the members that had some made.  I think the later model bikes like yours are a little more subject to the problem due to the mount center was machined to slightly wrong size.  Some spineframe owners carry a spare just in case of a needed roadside repair (I don't think I could tackle the job by myself, maybe at home in the garage.

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/16872-gearbox-selector-spring-pawl-arm-repair/#comment-180745

Here is a summary instruction, previously provided on the Forum.

>

Box in NEUTRAL.

Detach shock reservoir from bracket.

Isolate battery.

Remove starter motor.

Detach neutral switch term.

Detach shift link from shaft.

Drain gbox oil.

Remove 11 (5mm) socket cap bolts. Remove Selector cover plate (there's no gasket, goo holds pretty firm).

Remove 2 selector gears (retained by circlips) & mechanism, to access spring.

Ensure NEUTRAL in box (check spaces between sliding dogs & gears are equidistant) & in selector before replacing plate. Move the selector forks into the neutral position before replacing the side plate (rotate the rear wheel to confirm neutral - if the plate doesn't go on you've got a false neutral). Main thing is get box in neutral with selector forks equally spaced from sliding sleeves before putting the cover back on. Also, selector wheels in Neutral.

There's no gasket on cover. Use sealant/gasket cement.

[CSPRider]

02 is the year with the most spring failures but I see an Ohlins shock that didn’t come on the 2002’s. What color is your bike and is the engine paint dull black and bubbling?

Bike is definitely a 2002. Ohlins was added after the fact, and yes unfortunately the engine paint is indeed black was some bubbling. Do these springs give an indication of pending failure, or is it just working one minute and failed the next?

[CSPRider]

Like Chuck said go the Lemans site.  The transmission doesn't have to come out.  Access is in the cover.  Chuck and the guys have designed a better spring that can be purchased from one the members that had some made.  I think the later model bikes like yours are a little more subject to the problem due to the mount center was machined to slightly wrong size.  Some spineframe owners carry a spare just in case of a needed roadside repair (I don't think I could tackle the job by myself, maybe at home in the garage.

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/16872-gearbox-selector-spring-pawl-arm-repair/#comment-180745

Here is a summary instruction, previously provided on the Forum.

>

Box in NEUTRAL.

Detach shock reservoir from bracket.

Isolate battery.

Remove starter motor.

Detach neutral switch term.

Detach shift link from shaft.

Drain gbox oil.

Remove 11 (5mm) socket cap bolts. Remove Selector cover plate (there's no gasket, goo holds pretty firm).

Remove 2 selector gears (retained by circlips) & mechanism, to access spring.

Ensure NEUTRAL in box (check spaces between sliding dogs & gears are equidistant) & in selector before replacing plate. Move the selector forks into the neutral position before replacing the side plate (rotate the rear wheel to confirm neutral - if the plate doesn't go on you've got a false neutral). Main thing is get box in neutral with selector forks equally spaced from sliding sleeves before putting the cover back on. Also, selector wheels in Neutral.

There's no gasket on cover. Use sealant/gasket cement.

Thanks for the detailed response!

[fotoguzzi]

Red or Champaign?

[CSPRider]

Red or Champaign?

Red and dark gray. Here is what it looked like before the problems... Guess the honeymoon is officially over 

[lemans andy]

It looks to me like the shift rod is mounted on the outside of the pork chop.
Factory was mounted in the inside/backside of the pork chop.
I won't say never but I think your going to have a really hard time making that angle work

Andy

[fotoguzzi]

Nice, I had a red one.. looks like you got a handlebar conversion too.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Bike is definitely a 2002. Ohlins was added after the fact, and yes unfortunately the engine paint is indeed black was some bubbling. Do these springs give an indication of pending failure, or is it just working one minute and failed the next?

Just working one minute and failed the next.  Guzzi engineering is normally pretty good, but they must have elevated Luigi to design on this one. The factory spring as designed is forced to over travel by 17% (from memory)  They will fail.. sometimes in less than 5000 miles. (!) Others have tried to fix it by using different materials, but they are just a rehash of the failed design.
If you can move the shifter fully in both directions, that is the problem.
Here's the whole thread:
https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/20201-re-engineering-the-shift-spring/

[guzzisteve]

Wait till you pull the door off. You will say "who the F designed this" like a Swiss watch. Hey, it saved 1 1/2" on tranny length. It does work nice w/improvements that have been addressed.

[pauldaytona]

With a broken spring you can only shift downwards until you are in first. I have the experience. You wrote that you did adjust something, what exactly?

[Ryan]

I rode my Tenni home from Sacramento with my tools and a spare spring in my backpack. Once home, and in the comfort of my garage,  I swapped the spring. It isn't hard to do. Yes, it will work one minute and not the next; it fails, and all tension that keeps the shift pawl engaged is gone. Easy fix once you have the new spring. I suck as a mechanic, so if I could do it, anyone can.

[CSPRider]

Wait till you pull the door off. You will say "who the F designed this" like a Swiss watch. Hey, it saved 1 1/2" on tranny length. It does work nice w/improvements that have been addressed.

Well I did say what the f when the door came off, but it wasn't for design reasons... Apologies of the laxed replies as I was waiting for the new spring to arrive for repair.  Unfortunately when I pulled the selector unit off I was greeted by a mess of large metal pieces in the bottom of the gearbox .  Good news is I was able to order the parts from my local dealer, bad news is that they won't be able to even think about working on it until the Spring.  Pulling the gearbox out of this thing is a bit more than I am willing to take on, so if anyone knows of a reputable independent Guzzi mechanic in PA/NJ/Delaware area please share their contact information with me.  Part that exploded is either number 2 or number 8 in the parts fiche; I ordered 2 of each to replace them all.

[fotoguzzi]

Bummer, sorry you have to deal with that on your first Guzzi. Hope it doesn’t leave a bad taste in your mouth.

[LowRyter]

holy smokes!  This was right after the tranny was serviced? 

[CSPRider]

holy smokes!  This was right after the tranny was serviced?

Yep, it let loose on the test ride after changing the fluid. Some coincidence... Trying to find a shop to take this on, and thankfully should have the replacement parts in a week. Hope to have it sorted before the nice weather arrives and not let this sour my Guzzi experience. It certainly was fantastic to ride before the gear box came apart 

[2dogs]

Pretty sure the affected parts are those in the original factory transmission recall.

[fotoguzzi]

Pretty sure the affected parts are those in the original factory transmission recall.

maybe but I thought the recall was only for the ‘99-2000 short frame models?

[guzzisteve]

The recalls I performed was the torque spring that flips around when there is more than can turn the shaft.

[2dogs]

Those sliding dogs(#2) were the object of the recall.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Knowing Guzzi, I can imagine Luigi found an early transmission and threw it on there?
Don't let this sour you on the last and best "real" Guzzi. 
Go to the V11 Lemans forum. It is *the* knowldege base on these things..

[CSPRider]

Knowing Guzzi, I can imagine Luigi found an early transmission and threw it on there?
Don't let this sour you on the last and best "real" Guzzi. 
Go to the V11 Lemans forum. It is *the* knowldege base on these things..

Well whatever Luigi threw in there worked well for 20 years before I got my right hand on the throttle... 

I'm not soured at all on the brand and can't wait to get this one sorted so I can log some (hopefully trouble-free) miles on it.

Noted on the forum and just got myself registered. I'll be both financially and mentally committed to this machine after these repairs.

[Ouiji]

AAAANNNNDDDDD ??????
What happened .....????
VERY interested... I got a New To Me beautiful 2000 Sport in the
garage I'm afraid to ride. Very interested in availability of shift dog/ cush drive kit.
No sign of tyranny  problem..just don't want to do a flying W at 80mh.
Also Piaggio is telling me mine is not on the recall list though it's 50 builds into the bad tyranny...Accding to service bulletin 7-2003