Author Topic: Power Commander help  (Read 2734 times)

Offline Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2020, 07:50:23 AM »
You have more patience than I do. I just called up Will, got his recipe and applied it.

Oh, I did that, too.. but.. there was this annoying hiccup at around 3500 like one cylinder didn't fire. Maybe once a ride. I chased that and chased it. The eventual cure was the brass temp sensor holder. For whatever reason, that cured it.
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Offline ahoward125

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2020, 08:32:49 AM »
Donít get me wrong Howie, I did the same thing..
But the solution is as simple as it sounds. Just remove the unit, throw it under a bus or similar large vehicle and make sure it goes under the wheels..
Get the map.
Install it.

Well, after I set the TPS (multi-meter arrived) I will look into getting rid of the PC and mapping it correctly. I am finding that teaching remotely is taking WAY more time than the real thing and I haven't had the opportunity to look up a good reference on setting TPS. After that, I will chase down the cables necessary to do the PC bypass.
Honestly, I want to pick up a pair of stock/unmodified mufflers for the bike. I don't care if I give up a few HP, I want a quieter bike. 

Offline guzzisteve

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2020, 08:56:19 AM »
The easiest way is to back off idle stop and use 2 paper clips prodded in harness plug under rubber, slid down to pin connectors. I usually unplug headlight to save energy. Lift control arm up off the TB so no interference from other side. You can snap it closed or lay it closed for readings, a big difference between the two.
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beetle

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2020, 06:17:51 PM »
Well, after I set the TPS (multi-meter arrived) I will look into getting rid of the PC and mapping it correctly. I am finding that teaching remotely is taking WAY more time than the real thing and I haven't had the opportunity to look up a good reference on setting TPS. After that, I will chase down the cables necessary to do the PC bypass.
Honestly, I want to pick up a pair of stock/unmodified mufflers for the bike. I don't care if I give up a few HP, I want a quieter bike.



Now I'm happy to help. I highly recommend you climb the GuzziDiag learning curve. As for the TPS, check this:

http://www.bikeboy.org/tpssetting.html



Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2020, 06:17:51 PM »

Online Kiwi Dave

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2020, 06:18:51 PM »
The easiest way is to back off idle stop and use 2 paper clips prodded in harness plug under rubber, slid down to pin connectors.

I did the same thing, except I used sewing needles instead of the paper clips.  They're still there some 17 years later!
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 06:19:36 PM by Kiwi Dave »

Offline s1120

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #35 on: April 26, 2020, 08:04:19 AM »
I did the same thing, except I used sewing needles instead of the paper clips.  They're still there some 17 years later!

I have those long... I guess you would call them hat pins..  but they work awesome as a back probe. Long enough that you can bend them in the right way to clear, and thin enough to get into any connector.
Paul B

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2020, 08:38:52 AM »
     One of my challenges for tuning the EFI bikes especially the older ones without a TPS voltage display on guzzidiag, was wrapping my head around how to easily set up connections to the TPS connector with my voltmeter, and still leave everything connected so the bike electrics would still work.

     I used 2 separate strands of good thick copper wire which I inserted into the TPS connector; it worked, but it was a little "finnigly" and I worried about damaging my connectors and shorting out my contact leads.

     It may be old news to some, but I don't recall seeing the information here concerning the use of breakout cables to take the readings.

     Over on V11Lemans.com, https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20747-tps-break-out-cable/&tab=comments#comment-238517 they've discovered the Casper Breakout Cable which is a simple disconnect/plug in connector to take the readings from; if taking measurements from the TPS with a voltmeter is something you plan to do on a regular or semi-regular basis, this might be worthwhile adding to your tool box.

     http://www.casperselectronics.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=853

     I've haven't used mine yet, but the reviews are positive; it makes sense that it simplifies things quite a bit, fyi 

     fwiw ymmv

     Kelly
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Online Kiwi Dave

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2020, 03:26:18 PM »
Over on V11Lemans.com, https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20747-tps-break-out-cable/&tab=comments#comment-238517 they've discovered the Casper Breakout Cable which is a simple disconnect/plug in connector to take the readings from; if taking measurements from the TPS with a voltmeter is something you plan to do on a regular or semi-regular basis, this might be worthwhile adding to your tool box.

http://www.casperselectronics.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=853


It looks a handy product, but why are two wires the same color?  Confusion will ensure.

Online Kiwi_Roy

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2020, 06:22:19 AM »
Simply figure out which wire goes to the slider of the TPS and tap a wire into it ending in a Blue butt splice to take your Red meter probe, the other probe goes to chassis or battery Negative.
An early EV with a P8 ECU is even easier, just remove the cover off the plug and your wires are right there.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 06:24:57 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2020, 11:46:49 AM »
It looks a handy product, but why are two wires the same color?  Confusion will ensure.

     I can't find mine right now, lol,,, but I'm almost positive that the 3 wires are different colors, iirc one of them may have a stripe.

     I have read of people modding it to suit their needs, ie marking the leads or attaching whatever terminal works best for you.

     What I like about the unit is that it will work for a variety of different bikes, my understanding is that this will fit into any guzzi EFI TPS connector that needs to be read with a multi meter for adjustment.

     fwiw ymmv

     Kelly
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Online PeteS

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2020, 12:55:44 PM »
Well, after I set the TPS (multi-meter arrived) I will look into getting rid of the PC and mapping it correctly. I am finding that teaching remotely is taking WAY more time than the real thing and I haven't had the opportunity to look up a good reference on setting TPS. After that, I will chase down the cables necessary to do the PC bypass.
Honestly, I want to pick up a pair of stock/unmodified mufflers for the bike. I don't care if I give up a few HP, I want a quieter bike.

Likely too late now but the easiest way to swap out a TPS is simply read what the voltage is reading with the thottle at the idle stop. Ignition on, motor not running. Then put the new one on and rotate it until it reads the same voltage. You should be really close to where the old one was set at.
As for disconnecting the PC it should be just a matter of unplugging the cables going in and out of it and plugging the two together. Not sure you will need to do this with a good TPS but leave the PC in place and ride the bike and see what the difference is. Maybe go back and forth a a few times. If you don't sense a significant difference with the PC in place then take it out.

Pete

Online Kiwi Dave

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2020, 03:32:43 PM »
All these posts about voltmeters and measuring the TPS voltage made me forget why I haven't done this for a while.

It's called Guzzidiag!  The display can be configured to display TPS voltage.

beetle

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2020, 03:38:31 PM »
Do NOT use GuzziDiag to set the TPS with the voltage readout. The displayed resolution isn't good enough. You can, however, use the throttle readout, and set it it via the throttle angle.

Online Kiwi Dave

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2020, 08:46:32 PM »
Do NOT use GuzziDiag to set the TPS with the voltage readout. The displayed resolution isn't good enough. You can, however, use the throttle readout, and set it it via the throttle angle.

Interesting.  I always thought there was a fixed relationship between the two.  I learn something every day.

beetle

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2020, 09:27:40 PM »
There is, but the displayed voltage can be out by as much as 100mV IIRC. The throttle angle is accurate.




Offline John Croucher

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2020, 09:56:02 PM »
Add this to the mix, if you put a timing light on the engine and turn the tps, you will see the ignition timing change.

A tps will easily come apart for inspection and cleaning.  I had one with severely bent contacts.  Making contact in two different locations on the winding and dead spots.


Offline ahoward125

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2020, 04:05:07 PM »
So Spoke to Wayne O, and I still remember following him on his EV through on the BlueRidge Pky area and being amazed at how smooth he was.
Guzzi Steve has a set of stock mufflers and once they are on the Power Commander will come off. After that we will see how things work but I am not looking for a race bike and my tendonitis is still chronic so I won't be riding 10 hours a day. 
Weather and work have kept me from checking TPS voltage... next week for sure.

thank you all so much for the advice.

Online PeteS

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2020, 07:35:03 PM »
Add this to the mix, if you put a timing light on the engine and turn the tps, you will see the ignition timing change.

A tps will easily come apart for inspection and cleaning.  I had one with severely bent contacts.  Making contact in two different locations on the winding and dead spots.

The resistive element is around the circumference. I drilled a ~1/16" hole about a 1/4" from the edge to be able to squirt contact cleaner in. It gives you about 10k miles more before its totally worn out.

Pete

Offline John Croucher

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #48 on: May 06, 2020, 07:20:16 PM »
I "had" the mis-fire symptom with my 2003 engine.  Today I addressed it.  I pulled the throttle bodies removed the injectors (had to drill two screws out/drilled heads off), cleaned up everything.  Used My home made injector cleaner to check the spray pattern and remove any debris.  Checked fuel filter, clean.  Injectors, sprayed great. 

Reassembled everything and did a t.b. sync and tps set. The mis-fire at 2,000-2,500 rpm is now gone.  One thing I did find, the linkage arms are sloppy.  When doing the t.b. sync, one side would loose vacuum slightly as the linkages would go start pushing.  Not a big deal.  Shows up on the gages, but does not appear to be a throttle response issue off idle. 

I am assuming that the cause of the misfire was due to a dirty injector.  The right plug was black and the left white.  The engine misfired on the right side most likely from the left side running lean and the right side rich and fouling the plug. 

Prior to doing the work today,  I rode the bike and messed with the Power Commander.  I could not "tune" out the mis-fire.  I checked the coils/wire/caps and the spark with a spark tester.  All were in working order.  When I removed the P.C. from the system, the mis-fire got worse.  Probably because I had increased the fuel to the injectors to compensate for the dirty left side.  Which lead to the black plug on the right side.

Went for a short ride and the 2,000-2,500 rpm misfire is gone. 


Online John A

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2020, 07:02:47 PM »
When you are setting the tps for a non standard application, if you set it at wide open instead of at closed you can get repeatability on your reading. Check what you have and you can tweak from there and .001volts makes a difference.  Theoretically it should be at least 80% of the reference voltage.  I think I set mine around 4.72 volts, but they are all a little different from bike to bike as to what makes it run the best.

http://www.casperselectronics.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=853
Those breakout cables are cheaper on Amazon
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 07:05:06 PM by John A »
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Online TN Mark

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #50 on: May 08, 2020, 01:04:50 AM »
Itís foolish that some literally promote throwing away a perfectly capable Power Commander. I guess 100ís of 1000ís of satisfied customers are somehow deemed ignorant or wrong. Creedon chip? It was a huge improvement on my V10 Centauro. Beetle map? Thankfully Beetle took the time to make an improved  downloadable version of what Will Creedon started years ago. Obviously the downloadable version is much easier to make changes to for a bikes specific setup and needs.

My PCV from a dyno tune has been perfect for over 7 years. Most of the riders Iíve talked with or read about that had problems with a Power Commander, installed it themselves and used an improper ground source. But, itís an electrical item and they do have a failure rate. Be that as it may, if I were to start over today, Iíd go with the Maximus remote tune if it were available.

Power Commander, Creedon chip, Beetle map or a Maximus all have the same goal and can all work wonderfully. The best results at optimizing the AFR and the Timing per cylinder arenít from the device itself. Itís from the experience and the knowledge of the person doing the tuning.

Offline Zoom Zoom

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #51 on: May 08, 2020, 07:02:00 AM »
Mark, as I'm sure  you are aware, many folks that use a PC never have it properly tuned on a dyno. I did on my old EV. Without doing that, you are painting with a broad brush. After that, I still ended up having trouble with it when, during the Kentucky Rally, it began over fueling to the point the bike would not idle without throttle input. I removed it from the circuit, and  never reconnected it. I eventually figured out why. It you used the fast idle lever before you turned on the ignition, it decided that was the base setting on boot up. 

All of this was before there was a viable method to modify the puter. If you can properly adjust the factory puter, why would you want to add one more gadget?

If you take your modern car into the dealer for something, they flash the puter in the car with an update. They do not plug in another device. To add in the Creedon chip is nonsense since it accomplished what Beetle and others have done.

As far as I'm concerned, an untuned PC and the spoofers are snake oil. The chip Will developed was not. As for a PC, once you buy it and have it properly tuned, you have spent considerably more that putting a decent map in the puter from Beetle. Sorry but that seems silly. (I will note this is within the world of Guzzi. I don't know about other companies puters or their ability to be modified.)

Simply stated, the best thing you can do for a modern Guzzi running wise is a Beetle Map! It's also the least expensive.

Now to the OP, his initial concern regarding the running issue he described did not, to me, sound PC related. Many of us suggested the TPS and pointed him in that direction. That is likely the source of the trouble that showed up. Beyond that, a Beetle Map is a better solution for fueling a modern Guzzi that other options.

John Henry
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and the flying motor singing.
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Online Kiwi Dave

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #52 on: May 08, 2020, 03:24:26 PM »
Simply stated, the best thing you can do for a modern Guzzi running wise is a Beetle Map! It's also the least expensive.

Couldn't agree more for the 5AM chips on the CARC bikes, and the 7SM on the Cali 1400 & V85.  But still required for earlier versions.

Online TN Mark

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2020, 08:52:46 PM »
Mark, as I'm sure  you are aware, many folks that use a PC never have it properly tuned on a dyno. I did on my old EV. Without doing that, you are painting with a broad brush. After that, I still ended up having trouble with it when, during the Kentucky Rally, it began over fueling to the point the bike would not idle without throttle input. I removed it from the circuit, and  never reconnected it. I eventually figured out why. It you used the fast idle lever before you turned on the ignition, it decided that was the base setting on boot up. 

All of this was before there was a viable method to modify the puter. If you can properly adjust the factory puter, why would you want to add one more gadget?

If you take your modern car into the dealer for something, they flash the puter in the car with an update. They do not plug in another device. To add in the Creedon chip is nonsense since it accomplished what Beetle and others have done.

As far as I'm concerned, an untuned PC and the spoofers are snake oil. The chip Will developed was not. As for a PC, once you buy it and have it properly tuned, you have spent considerably more that putting a decent map in the puter from Beetle. Sorry but that seems silly. (I will note this is within the world of Guzzi. I don't know about other companies puters or their ability to be modified.)

Simply stated, the best thing you can do for a modern Guzzi running wise is a Beetle Map! It's also the least expensive.

Now to the OP, his initial concern regarding the running issue he described did not, to me, sound PC related. Many of us suggested the TPS and pointed him in that direction. That is likely the source of the trouble that showed up. Beyond that, a Beetle Map is a better solution for fueling a modern Guzzi that other options.

John Henry

I agree, in part, with much of your history lesson. Yes, most people don't have their bike with a Power Commander dyno tuned, they simply download a 'close enough' map. Often with less than great results. My point is that people on this forum who promote throwing away a perfectly good PC as SOP is foolishness. They work great (some even better so) for such a high percentage of the installations. Like I said, it's an electronic component and they can and do fail. Many of the failures I've personally seen have been from less than great installations. Perhaps your PC failed or perhaps there was another reason (loose/pinched wire/poor connection etc.) for your over fueling situation. There is nothing random when something fails, there's always a cause and an effect.

When the PCV was installed and dyno tuned on my bike (Victory 106), direct ECU tuning via Maximus wasn't available yet. That certainly doesn't mean I should, or anyone should, disconnect a perfectly capable PCV and throw it away because now a Maximus tuning expert can go directly into my ECU. Yes, a PCV is an 'added on' item. So what, the point is they can and do work wonderfully.

Like I also said, if I were to start from scratch today with a stock Victory, I'd go the direct ECU tuning route via Maximus which also results in a custom fuel map for the bike. Plus I wouldn't have to change the timing wheel. The adjustable timing wheel is $115 and about 15 minutes installation with the bike on the sidestand.

I tipped my hat to Will Creedon because IMHO, he was the pioneer in aftermarket tuning for the Guzzi masses with his work on the V10 engine fuel map. A Creedon chip certainly isn't 'nonsense' or 'silly' to any Centauro owner I've ever talked to or known. My bone stock Centauro, like they all did, ran horribly until I installed the Creedon chip and the Stucchi crossover. Again, Will did the best he could with the technology available to him at the time.

If I were to get an Eldorado 1400, of course I'd consider a Beetle map as the first course of action. It's very likely the best and quickest route there is to get a properly running 1400. Although I also wouldn't disconnect a PCV if the 1400 had one without first verifying the installation and having a competent tuner dyno tune it and verify the other components operation and adjustments. If I get an Eldo 1400 and it doesn't have a PCV, I'd go the Beetle map route.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 08:58:22 PM by TN Mark »

Online Kiwi Dave

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2020, 10:18:50 PM »
The other caveat to consider is that the power commander can have an Autotune and wide band lambda sensor(s) added which to adjust the mapping  to suit the conditions.

Online TN Mark

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Re: Power Commander help
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2020, 10:42:22 PM »
Good point. Auto Tune is a great option for people who plan to or could make changes after the initial tune. In my case, 40K miles after the initial dyno tune, I changed mufflers and raised the front of my tank an inch. I went back to the dyno to have what I called a 'nip & tuck done to my original tune fuel map. The fuel map didn't change a lot, but enough to ensure the engine is still running at peak performance.

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