Not really a new topic. Cam failures 8V.

[Greg Field]

Good info, Pete!

[youcanrunnaked]

Thank you for answering my questions, Pete.  I'm still not clear if for the 8V bikes you are repairing, Piaggio is going to pay for the repairs, but I guess I should just shut up and be grateful for the morsels of information you begrudgingly supplied, eh?

FWIW, I am still relatively happy with my EV, despite the failed clutch that left me stranded in Nowheresville, KY, and the now non-functioning speedometer / odometer / trip meter.

Hey, I might even buy a third Moto Guzzi some day (maybe even an 8V model).  I guess I am just the type of person who likes to go into a major purchase with his eyes open.  Weird, right?

[Vasco DG]

OK, one more time.

IF THE TAPPETS FAIL IN THE WARRANTY PERIOD AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A FULL SERVICE HISTORY THE REPLACEMENT WILL BE DONE FREE OF CHARGE AT NO COST TO THE CUSTOMER BUT PAY YOUR SHOP SHIT SO TAKE THEM IN A CASE OF BEER.

IF THEY FAIL OUTSIDE OF WARRANTY AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A FULL SERVICE HISTORY THE FACTORY THE FACTORY WILL, AT THEIR DISCRETION, SUPPLY A ROLLER CONVERSION KIT BUT THE CUSTOMER HAS TO PAY FOR INSTALLATION.

Are as clear now. No service history and you can whistle.

Pete

[youcanrunnaked]

If you do your own oil changes, does notes in a log book count as "service history?"

[Ducking and running....]

[Vasco DG]

Are you a qualified motorcycle mechanic? Do you own the factory approved tooling to service the machine? Have you undertaken any form of training and familiarisation with the product? Are you aware of its individual eccentricities? Finally, have you ever given anything to either your manufacturer or your dealer apart from the innital purchase price of the bike?

If the answer to one, any or all of the above is 'No' I would suggest that everybody above you in the food chain will cordially and happily instruct you to bite your bum!

Pete

[Vasco DG]

Pete, I'm curios if any of the failed 8v's you are encountering will be upgraded to roller tappets, if so can we hope for a tutorial? Also are you seeing this both in a5 and a8 motors? Dave

A5, A8, AA, AC, the full banana. No series is exempt.

See my reply in red below as to what happens in terms of replacement.

Pete (Who has just spooned on a new set of Michelin PR4's onto his flat tappet Griso and plans to go out tomorrow and see how much he can peel off the edges tomorrow on the way to the coast.) :D

[ed@guzzipower.com]

I have a kit that will fix these issues.

See:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-Griso-cams-lifters-DLC-coated-/321440011098?pt=Motorcycles_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item4ad751535a

[Vasco DG]

Umm, no, sorry Ed, you don't. This is identical to the fix the factory tried and it hasn't worked.

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

Umm, no, sorry Ed, you don't. This is identical to the fix the factory tried and it hasn't worked.

Pete

Is it fixable in your opinion ?
Wonder if anyone will ever test one, 100K miles on pushrod engine so common no-one doubts it, 50 (80 french ones) on an 8V considered high, realistic life expectancy in this day and age ?
Landfill

[Vasco DG]

Really?

[youcanrunnaked]

I guess I should have been clearer and more focused with my last question.

If you have a dealer do the set-up and break-in service, and you do your own oil changes and valve clearance checks/adjustments ,and keep a log, and assuming no other service is needed, will that satisfy the need for a "service history?"

[Cheese]

I guess I should have been clearer and more focused with my last question.

If you have a dealer do the set-up and break-in service, and you do your own oil changes and valve clearance checks/adjustments ,and keep a log, and assuming no other service is needed, will that satisfy the need for a "service history?"

Interesting question. In NY state, the owner can perform the basic maintenance and the warranty will remain in force. Any problems occurring after the warranty period, if repaired free of charge, or at some reduced rate would be due to the "good will" of the dealer/mfg. I think. This probably varies from state to state and certainly from country to country.

Peter

[youcanrunnaked]

^^^  Right.  Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act means manufacturers cannot tie dealer service with honoring their warranty.  (That does not mean that some don't try to disavow coverage over some flimsy excuse, like no proof of regular oil changes if you do them yourself.)

But, what about out-of-warranty repairs for failed 8V bikes, where Piaggio is apparently offering a so-called "hidden warranty" (at least, a partial one covering the parts, only)?  If they will only supply free parts for bikes with a "service history," are they using that as a dodge, or will people who do their own oil changes and valve adjustments get treated fairly?

[guzziboy66]

To be fair - Is this a question Pete should be answering?

He can tell you what happens in his shop.
He can tell you what his experiences are.

But he can't be EXPECTED to know what's going to happen to anyone else in any other part of the world.

Eric

[oldbike54]

To be fair - Is this a question Pete should be answering?

He can tell you what happens in his shop.
He can tell you what his experiences are.

But he can't be EXPECTED to know what's going to happen to anyone else in any other part of the world.

Eric

Yep  :+1 YCRN , there is no way Pete can do anything but a SWAG here  :D

  Dusty

[Cheese]

Here's a article which could be helpful. No "cast in stone" solutions, biggest thing is to not be an *&%$hole when you ask for a gift.

Peter

http://www.dealerbusinessjournal.com/articleview.php?id=545-12072

[youcanrunnaked]

Again, all of my questions to Pete were specifically addressed to his personal experience with 8V failures.  He may be a stubborn cuss, but he knows his shyte and I value his expertise and experience.

[Dick]

Maybe Guzzi should call the dentist (John Wittner) to fix these teething problems.  :D ;D

[Vasco DG]

Again, all of my questions to Pete were specifically addressed to his personal experience with 8V failures.  He may be a stubborn cuss, but he knows his shyte and I value his expertise and experience.

And I can't work out whether you are a troll or just incredibly dim. I have answered your questions as best I can but you still want me to keep repeating stuff, seemingly for your entertainment! Sorry, no more.

[Vasco DG]

Interesting question. In NY state, the owner can perform the basic maintenance and the warranty will remain in force. Any problems occurring after the warranty period, if repaired free of charge, or at some reduced rate would be due to the "good will" of the dealer/mfg. I think. This probably varies from state to state and certainly from country to country.

Peter

How many 'Home Mechanics' possess Navigator or PADS? While most of us know that you can use a number of aftermarket tools to perform tasks like re-setting the TPS and the adjustable parameters of the ECU the simple fact is the only FACTORY APPROVED way of doing this is with the factory tooling. Don't have access to it? Fine! See you in court! I'm not saying this is necessarily right or fair but I'd say that legally you'd have a hard time pressing your claim. If you can't re-set your TPS you can't correctly balance your throttle bodies. If you don't keep your throttle bodies balanced you are not properly maintaining your bike. QED. Warranty declined. There is more to 'Servicing' a bike than changing its oil and adjusting the valve lash.

Pete

[Wayne Orwig]

How many 'Home Mechanics' possess Navigator or PADS? While most of us know that you can use a number of aftermarket tools to perform tasks like re-setting the TPS and the adjustable parameters of the ECU the simple fact is the only FACTORY APPROVED way of doing this is with the factory tooling. Don't have access to it? Fine! See you in court! I'm not saying this is necessarily right or fair but I'd say that legally you'd have a hard time pressing your claim. If you can't re-set your TPS you can't correctly balance your throttle bodies. If you don't keep your throttle bodies balanced you are not properly maintaining your bike. QED. Warranty declined. There is more to 'Servicing' a bike than changing its oil and adjusting the valve lash.

In the US, you usually don't have to visit the dealer to maintain warranty. Basically, you are free to shop around for the PROPER service. (you may need to prove that it is proper though) Or the dealer can provide it for free, if you MUST visit the dealer.
Outside of warranty, you are 100% on your own. Any dealer or manufacturing support is at their discretion.

I had a Honda that ate the cams and followers just out of warranty, they told me to take a hike. My 2004 EV never had cam issues, but out of warranty they installed an upgrade for free. I had a 7 year old Kawasaki, and they replaced the electronic ignition module for free after I wrote them a nice letter asking for their assistance. That saved me about $300.

Out of warranty depends on the phase of the moon, and how you approach the manufacturer.

[tonyduc]

A5, A8, AA, AC, the full banana. No series is exempt.

See my reply in red below as to what happens in terms of replacement.

Pete (Who has just spooned on a new set of Michelin PR4's onto his flat tappet Griso and plans to go out tomorrow and see how much he can peel off the edges tomorrow on the way to the coast.) :D

One question not answered, and likely only Piaggio would know, is what percentage of total 8V sold have had these problems? They could even break it down by region so if it's a weather related matter this data might reveal it. Statistics done scientifically can be very revealing, but it probably for Piaggio's eyes only.

[lucian]

Thanks again Pete for responding. After re-reading this thread in its entirety, I apologize for asking questions that you have clearly addressed repeatedly. I can understand your frustration. I totally understand what its like to have people who expect you to go above and beyond when the shit hits the fan,but never even throw you a bone when times are good. Happens to me all the time in my trade. I appreciate your insight as to why this happens and for your suggestions on how to proceed. I've never owned a bike that I enjoy riding as much as this griso , my cali 14 included. If it goes south on me tomorrow I will absolutely do what needs to be done to get it back on the road asap. Meanwhile I will continue to do the little stuff I can do like oil and filter, valve lash, and let a pro do the rest. Dave

[Vasco DG]

Dave, one of the reasons I post my findings and experiences up here is because it enables me to bounce ideas off and get feedback from both others in the trade and talented 'Back Yardies' that may help nail down the exact cause of the problem. I know too that others are interested in finding out why the problem is occurring. What annoys me is being constantly asked to repeat answers and re-state information that has been covered before, often multiple times. I also know that if I try to re-word what I'm saying, to make it easier to understand or to try and clarify a point, some clown will immediately jump up and start shrieking "That isn't what you said before!" Its at that point the needle on my 'I-don't-give-a-screaming-shit-o-meter' begins to swing around the dial!

As for questions as to how the problem is being addressed? I have said what I know to be the modus operandi here in Oz. I do not have a crystal ball that allows me to see into the dark souls of Piaggio management so I have absolutely no idea how it is addressed elsewhere, although the tech bulletin on our 'Australian' website is lifted directly from the Pommy one as the payment and pricing figures are all in GB£ so one assumes it is covered in the same way in that market. Extrapolating from there you would expect everywhere in the EU to get the same deal.

I personally know of one friend who has had a roller top end supplied for his Stelvio in the US so there has to be some sort of similar policy in your country. Beyond that I'm as much in the dark as anybody else. Bottom line is though if you want your dealer to help you? Help your dealer. Buy stuff off him and get your bike serviced by him/her. You can't expect people to crawl seven miles over broken glass for you for nothing.

Pete

[jacksonracingcomau]

In the US, you usually don't have to visit the dealer to maintain warranty. Basically, you are free to shop around for the PROPER service. (you may need to prove that it is proper though) Or the dealer can provide it for free, if you MUST visit the dealer.
Outside of warranty, you are 100% on your own. Any dealer or manufacturing support is at their discretion.

I had a Honda that ate the cams and followers just out of warranty, they told me to take a hike. My 2004 EV never had cam issues, but out of warranty they installed an upgrade for free. I had a 7 year old Kawasaki, and they replaced the electronic ignition module for free after I wrote them a nice letter asking for their assistance. That saved me about $300.

Out of warranty depends on the phase of the moon, and how you approach the manufacturer.

Same worldwide IME, ditto with Honda but Yam and Suzuki bent over backwards to resolve known issues , no questions at all.
But one of things some manufacturers use to get out of warranty engine claims is the great "fiddled with" clause, non std exhausts or the very best, home tuned ECU's

If it turned out that all the 8v's that went pop had maps from the internet, could even be the genuine reason.

Any of the new "just serviced" cam failures had been "tuned" at same time with pipe and map ?.

May not be slightly relevant but Piaggio would be well within rights to knock back claim, if done by dealer it's up to him to keep shtum, as Pete says , if you want help with warranty, buy original parts from official dealer & keep receipts.

[Chuck in Indiana]

What annoys me is being constantly asked to repeat answers and re-state information that has been covered before, often multiple times.

Pete, I think some of this comes from our "instant information" world. Some don't read the *whole* thread, or *just skim over it.* I've seen some of my "pearls of information" on small block threads do the same. Everything was addressed on the previous page, for instance.

[Vasco DG]

Almost certainly. Trying to be helpful and informative also seems to make you into a troll magnet which is a PITA. ::)

Pete

[Vasco DG]

OK a few pics of failed tappets and cams.

Tappets show progression of failure patterns. By the time you get to the stage the last two are at you will find junk through the motor and it needs more than a simple cam replacement!



The cams are interesting. Note that damage first occurs on the nose circles. It is only when the tappets get to the final point of dissolution that you begin to se developing da,age on the opening flanks.





Pete

[Tazturtle]

Interesting pics. Would the initial wear at max cam opening not point towards valve adjustment that is too tight?

Kurt

[Phang]

Thanks for sharing the pics, Pete  ;-T