Author Topic: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz AND South Africa  (Read 109685 times)

Offline Lannis

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #30 on: March 31, 2015, 06:57:57 AM »
I hope the swingarm is returned to the factory for met. analysis. It could easy be a one off casting that had a hair line crack that eventually gave way. Whatever the cause it would be reassuring to know a complete investigation took place.
Either way it must be a very rare occurance which would not  put me off a CARC model.

Edit: I note the bike is on a auction site. From what I have said above that is not acceptable unless the true cause is known already.

If I were the factory, and knew something was getting this much publicity, I'd have the swingarm back for metallurgical analysis too.   Could have been a flawed casting; could be that the new mounting hole for the ABS line created a stress riser in exactly the wrong place.

At any rate, it hasn't put me off my CARC model.   Our Stelvio carried a 500 pound payload (an overload in anyone's book) over some of the roughest potholes I've seen on the truck-hammered roads in Nova Scotia approaching the Cabot Trail, and if it survived that it'll survive anything ....

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Offline Nick

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #31 on: March 31, 2015, 07:42:22 AM »
Oh hell.......now I "NEED" to go on a diet  ;D

Offline kevdog3019

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2015, 08:09:30 AM »
Shit does happen in any brand. Being such a rare occurrence does make you wonder but a bloke I know was riding his Suzuki SV650S  which he'd owned from new, never dropped, 20,000K's , well ridden but looked after, never been on dirt, when the fork headstock cracked off the frame and threw him down the road. He got nasty gravel rash but luckily it happened at slow speed.
The cops wanted to charge him with neg driving because it had to be trailered. Crazy blanket rules. But suffice to say, there are thousands of these bikes that never have any such problem, in fact it would be amazing to find one other case. You just have to be unlucky I spose.
Fractures like that carc could possibly occur from an initial scratch in the wrong spot. Being a big hollow tube with a hole drilled at that point, there might be something there, some kind of a deep scratch or score, that started the thing over a long time.
If anyone is worried they should have close inspection of their carc in this regard.
But I'll be surprised if anyone else has the same problem.
I do believe the story though and it seems wrong to make out that the owner is a bullshitter. Especially with no other evidence than the story which sounds totally plausible. All castings are not equal, we should accept this.
This  :+1
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Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2015, 08:37:57 AM »
I tested mine by having my wife ride with me.
It will withstand anything.
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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2015, 08:37:57 AM »

Offline Daniel Kalal

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2015, 09:00:11 AM »
In aircraft structures, you'll rarely see conventional aluminum castings used in any significant load carrying role.  The properties are so erratic that it is necessary (by regulation) to impose a high factor of safety on the design, which makes the extra weight not worth it.  What about aluminum forgings?  They're fine; no extra factors are needed.

It's possible that this swingarm had especially bad properties right at the location of the stress-riser (the drilled hole) while also being subjected to a rougher life than normal.  It all added up to the failure even if the motorcycle was never abused.  Bad things can happen at the skinny arms of the distribution, but that doesn't put all the other samples at risk.

It's my guess that the swingarm was sized foremost for stiffness and strength mostly took care of itself (was the hope).

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #35 on: March 31, 2015, 09:12:09 AM »
 What Deke says , and Pete , why do you say BMW can't build a gearbox , either Trans or bevel ?

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Offline pyoungbl

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #36 on: March 31, 2015, 09:13:40 AM »
FWIW, the swingarm (part # 978350) is the same on the 8V Norge, Griso, and Stelvio.  It is also found on the 4V Stelvio.  That tells me that this failure is extremely rare since the part has been used for at least 7 years and in multiple vehicle types.  One bad casting...stuff happens.

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Offline youcanrunnaked

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #37 on: March 31, 2015, 09:25:51 AM »
The jokes on Guzzi of course; I hear it now... Guzzi put the "R" in CARC in the wrong place.  :beat_horse


Hahaha!  ;-T

Here's a few more:

CARC kills.

CARC is whack.

Looks like it fell through the CARCs.

The jokes practically write themselves!


I vote for a one-off metallurgical failure.  File under: Shit happens.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2015, 04:21:25 PM by youcanrunnaked »
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Offline bad Chad

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #38 on: March 31, 2015, 09:54:15 AM »
FWIW, the swingarm (part # 978350) is the same on the 8V Norge, Griso, and Stelvio.  It is also found on the 4V Stelvio.  That tells me that this failure is extremely rare since the part has been used for at least 7 years and in multiple vehicle types.  One bad casting...stuff happens.

Peter Y.

Actually I think it's more like 10 years, as I believe the CARC debut on the 2006 Breva 1100 is exactly the same structure.
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Offline zedXmick

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #39 on: March 31, 2015, 10:27:48 AM »
It would be nice to see more detailed closeup pictures of the unit. I would vote on a bad casting, and I can see the owners point of taking the money vs a replacement bike. Glad to hear the guy WAS able to walk away from the crash and glad to hear he is still enjoying riding two wheels. 

Why all the hate on the original owner? From what was posted on ADV the orginal owner DIDN'T even post the pictures....some other guy on ADV came across them on an auction site that is trying to sell the bike.


It would be nice if MG would do a follow up on this unit and have a report on the findings but thats not going to happen. Never seen any follow up reports from BMW and Honda on their failed shaft drive units either.
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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #40 on: March 31, 2015, 11:55:06 AM »
No 'Hate' on the owner from me. If the story is true I can perfectly understand his concerns and his choice to move to another brand. What I think is absurd is that after one failure on a single machine all the shrieking hysterics come boiling out of the woodwork claiming that the design, used on many different models, is flawed and unsafe.

It also doesn't explain why the wreck is listed as impact damaged. Who knows the real story? Nobody!

Pete

Offline youcanrunnaked

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #41 on: March 31, 2015, 04:23:57 PM »
What I think is absurd is that after one failure on a single machine all the shrieking hysterics come boiling out of the woodwork claiming that the design, used on many different models, is flawed and unsafe.


Where are these "shrieking hysterics" of which you speak?   ???
"The transverse vibration is a great sensation -- hey, I think I just wrote a song!"
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"If Moto Guzzi were any more of a cult, you'd need a chicken."
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ridingron

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #42 on: March 31, 2015, 07:51:37 PM »
If the price was right and depending on all the other damage, I would buy the bike. A new part and whatever other parts needed for repair and ride it.

I didn't bother going over to the Adventure site to read their responses.

Any other failures on Guzzi bikes? The only one?

Offline Lannis

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #43 on: March 31, 2015, 08:34:54 PM »
No 'Hate' on the owner from me. If the story is true I can perfectly understand his concerns and his choice to move to another brand. What I think is absurd is that after one failure on a single machine all the shrieking hysterics come boiling out of the woodwork claiming that the design, used on many different models, is flawed and unsafe.

Pete

Haven't seen any of those yet, but I suppose that past experience may tell us to watch out for them .... !

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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2015, 08:50:30 PM »
No 'Hate' on the owner from me. If the story is true I can perfectly understand his concerns and his choice to move to another brand. What I think is absurd is that after one failure on a single machine all the shrieking hysterics come boiling out of the woodwork claiming that the design, used on many different models, is flawed and unsafe.

It also doesn't explain why the wreck is listed as impact damaged. Who knows the real story? Nobody!

Pete
I do, read my posts, he fell after it broke, understandably, think I would've too, lucky he was going slowly, very lucky.
Why it wasn't removed and analysed is another story, you can prob find that out with a phone call.
Hysterics ? where ? most seem to think a one off casting fault, tend to agree but reserve that judgement to an expert in metallurgy, not me.

Someone will buy the thing, surely

NoVector

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #45 on: March 31, 2015, 10:10:12 PM »
I do believe the story though and it seems wrong to make out that the owner is a bullshitter.

I don't see anyone calling out the owner or poster.  I think we're all in the same boat and just wondering how this happened.  The most logical explanation is at some point, there was an "event" that caused a crack, and over time that crack grew until the final result as seen in the pictures.  The million dollar question is, what was this "event"?  I think we'd all agree that the most likely scenario is an impact of some sort, possibly days, weeks, or months prior and the owner never knew a crack had formed.  A much less likely scenario, but I guess still possible, is this idea of a bad CARC from the factory (i.e. a casting defect).  Hopefully someone will post up better pictures of the whole CARC, including the underside.  If there are no signs of impact along the fracture, then I guess we have a unicorn and the first ever CARC failure from bad casting (at least the first I've ever heard of), but my guess is an impact started this disaster.

In the end, CARC'd Guzzi's are more overbuilt than my car, so I'll keep riding the heck out of mine and not worry a moment about a similar failure.

-NV

Offline brenwin

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #46 on: March 31, 2015, 10:19:27 PM »
This old swing arm (Paralever) has been rolling down the highway for over 140,000 miles.  I suspect it might be a bit more delicate than the CARC design, however, no issues, aside from a driveshaft (u joint) that failed at 121,000 miles.  



There's several thousand Beemer single sided swingarms out there, and aside from the pic of the 'flaming' one, I haven't seen too many pics of failed units, at least not any that look like the CARC pic in this thread.  I have to agree .... the Stelvio must have hit something in its lifetime that fractured the swing arm.

One would think that something out of the ordinary would have caused this . Possibly started on a previous ride undetected but nobody really knows.
Good to hear from an unbiased Beemer owner . I love them all and always have just have a preference for Guzzi and that's ok . I hope he has better luck with the Triumph !
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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #47 on: April 01, 2015, 01:35:45 AM »
Well, I think someone got a bargain. I watched towards the end of the Auction but when it went above $4,000 I lost interest, I dont have that sort of money at the moment and Jude would of had my bollock on a plate if I'd bought it. I think it went for about 4.6k which for a 23K bike is pretty damn good!

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Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #48 on: April 01, 2015, 02:08:49 AM »
I don't see anyone calling out the owner or poster.  I think we're all in the same boat and just wondering how this happened.  The most logical explanation is at some point, there was an "event" that caused a crack, and over time that crack grew until the final result as seen in the pictures.  The million dollar question is, what was this "event"?  I think we'd all agree that the most likely scenario is an impact of some sort, possibly days, weeks, or months prior and the owner never knew a crack had formed.  A much less likely scenario, but I guess still possible, is this idea of a bad CARC from the factory (i.e. a casting defect).  Hopefully someone will post up better pictures of the whole CARC, including the underside.  If there are no signs of impact along the fracture, then I guess we have a unicorn and the first ever CARC failure from bad casting (at least the first I've ever heard of), but my guess is an impact started this disaster.

In the end, CARC'd Guzzi's are more overbuilt than my car, so I'll keep riding the heck out of mine and not worry a moment about a similar failure.

-NV
Have another look at picture, it's swingingarm not carc that broke,


Agree with Pete it was a bargain, I should've jumped on it, I'd use front end and brakes , engine, box and carc could've found homes for sure.

Offline bib

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #49 on: April 01, 2015, 02:26:15 AM »
I have witnessed folks taking a NEW bike off a showroom floor for a test ride ... and absolutely THRASH it thru the gears. Often wonder if these sort of people also take a Trail bike and do the same thing? Have never bought a demo bike yet ...
The only people who will know the truth on this single event is either a very good metallurgist or a rider that rode that bike in a way that created a fracture....
would just take one single event to do that.... was the bike parked somewhere and a gremlin with metal fracturing powers pick on it??
Keep it away from me!

canuguzzi

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #50 on: April 01, 2015, 01:54:41 PM »
Who has the schematics for welding braces onto the CARC to avoid this mishap? Maybe someone can come up with a right side bolt on gizmo and drive the rear wheel from both sides?

Better yet, an ejection seat is in order, that way you'll hit the ground much later than the bike and thus be able to video the whole affair from the air.

Offline Waterbottle

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #51 on: April 01, 2015, 03:35:27 PM »
I haven't zoomed in on the picture, but it looks to me like the crack was there for a while. Dark colour in front of the tire , and shiny ( fresh ) aluminium colour where it finally let go.
Giving it a bath once in a while , that crack may have been discovered before it failed completely, Ohhhh thats right , some of you guys are allergic to a clean bike  :D
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Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2015, 03:49:57 PM »
I haven't zoomed in on the picture, but it looks to me like the crack was there for a while. Dark colour in front of the tire , and shiny ( fresh ) aluminium colour where it finally let go.
Giving it a bath once in a while , that crack may have been discovered before it failed completely, Ohhhh thats right , some of you guys are allergic to a clean bike  :D
-Ron.   

I'd noticed that Ron but didn't think it worth mentioning as I was sure I'd be shouted down and told I was an apologist for Piaggio. I still reckon it stinks of pre-existing damage that led to failure. How and why that damage occured is open to conjecture.

I know of lots of people who ride their CARC Guzzis on dirt regularly, myself included, but the Stelvio I recently had to do the complete engine rebuild on lives several km down a real goat track that only gets graded once every couple of years. If anything was going to kill a swingarm? That would do it! Both that bike and the owners previous one, an earlier 'Small Tank' Stelvio', have never given any problems in terms of chassis *Irregularities*. In contrast BMW's used previously for similar tasks has continuous niggling issues, broken spokes, collapsed bearings, gearbox issues.... I know which one I'd trust.....

Pete

Offline cj750

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2015, 04:23:03 PM »
For perspective, here's a Stelvio (not mine) that hasn't had any reported problems with the swingarm:









(photos from the ADV Rider site.)

Then again, when I was watching Predator I didn't think two members of its cast would become governors, either. So you never know.

Doppelgaenger

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2015, 01:20:41 AM »
Have another look at picture, it's swingingarm not carc that broke,


Agree with Pete it was a bargain, I should've jumped on it, I'd use front end and brakes , engine, box and carc could've found homes for sure.


It's interesting how the cross-beam of the swingarm tore open along that dirty looking break... with that kind of pre-existing damage I would expect it to fail as bad as it did.

CanuckGoosie

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #55 on: July 04, 2015, 12:07:13 AM »
It's interesting how the cross-beam of the swingarm tore open along that dirty looking break... with that kind of pre-existing damage I would expect it to fail as bad as it did.
I haven't been on the site for awhile because of reasons relating to a similar situation. I was quite surprize to see this post and glad to see I wasnt alone.
I have agree with the rider and the chap that submitted the post as being as close to the truth as one can get.
In my case to be brief happened with the same bike same amount of KM's/mileage same year same type of rider.
Sorry to say Pete it broke in the exact same place and here are some photo's!
Speed at the time was between 100-105km/h as I was peeling back in my lane after over taking another vehicle in a normal pass
sorry Im havind trouble loading a photo attachment - is there a secret button hiding somewhere??
« Last Edit: July 04, 2015, 02:02:47 AM by CanuckGoosie »

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2015, 01:16:54 AM »
Look, it's very unfortunate but quite simply the design has been in production and use for well over a decade. There has been no pattern of systematic failure. Ofeople want to scaremonger they are welcome to but it's bullshit plain and simple. Two failures in a decade does not a 'Flawed Product' make. If it did BMW's system would be streets ahead in the failure rate.

Pete

beetle

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2015, 01:24:21 AM »
Chain drive rules.

BMW's are lovely.

The Tuono is slow.

The 75HP small block is about to be released.

The CARC/single sided swingarm is dangerous and breaks.

Let the Hysteria abound! 


Penderic

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2015, 02:19:08 AM »
Maybe I am wrong, but it looks like the break first started right in front of the rear tire. The edges of the broken center section are dull, grey (oxidized?) while the edges of the broken side section carrying the driveshaft, looks fresh and shiny.

Maybe the center section cracked first and the side failed much later. Looks like it to my eye.

Could a rock get wedged in that area?  Maybe a bad casting that slipped through inspection?

I had a sleeping bag wedge in tightly between my tire and the rear fender (a weak bungie cord holding it on the bike came loose and caught a spoke on a 69 BSA years ago - instant lockup!)

Something strange happened.


CanuckGoosie

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Re: Stelvio CARC failure in Oz
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2015, 02:22:18 AM »
Look, it's very unfortunate but quite simply the design has been in production and use for well over a decade. There has been no pattern of systematic failure. Ofeople want to scaremonger they are welcome to but it's bullshit plain and simple. Two failures in a decade does not a 'Flawed Product' make. If it did BMW's system would be streets ahead in the failure rate.

Pete

well nothing is perfect and just like the suspension link there is always a few that dont make the grade! Too bad I cant post all the findings I think it would change your mind about the quality!

 

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