Is there a crab in my future? G5 content

[Chuck in Indiana]

A little history. When I bought the "almost new" G5, the previous owner told me that when it got hot, the clutch was grabby.
When I brought it home and put it up on the lift, I found the clutch actuating arm spring out of it's well, and trapped sideways. Smiled, figured I had this little problem solved, and started riding it. It was much better, but still didn't have much friction zone when hot.
Now, I'm making progress. It never has much friction zone.  It's rideable, but a PITA.
Looking at the maintenance records, it had it's transmission rebuilt, new clutch, and apparently a new flywheel 12K miles ago.
9-30-13 88027
Rebuilt transmission with all new bearings and seals.
New clutch
New rear main seal.
Fly wheel.
There are no receipts, so I don't know what "kind" of clutch plates were installed. It came with a couple of boxes of spares, including what appears to be new clutch plates.
So, what am I looking at? The throwout bearing gizmo is recessed about .030-.040" The clutch doesn't slip or drag. Could this be a notched input shaft? The clutch actuating arm has "plenty" of clearance to the case.
TIA

[Groover]

Do you mean it engages quickly, releasing the lever it goes from clutch pulled, to engaged without much clutch travel? Must be some sort of high performance clutch installed I'm thinking.. I don't know how to fix that, I'm just rehashing what you said without a purpose 

Edit, maybe the lever under the engine where the clutch cable attached is bent..

[kirby1923]

Ah, welcome to the unknown maintence history, I suffered plenty w/my CX.

My WAG??  "The throwout bearing gizmo "

Note: I said WAG!!

Luck be with you (or the force)

:-)

[fotoguzzi]

What's the mileage? Notched fly wheel splines? If the FW was not replaced with the clutch?

[oldbike54]

 I'll send along a good recipe for butter sauce .

 Dusty

[RinkRat II]

   
     I would go with the Dungeness and a fine Pinot Gris to complement that sauce!

    Paul B

[Chuck in Indiana]

Do you mean it engages quickly, releasing the lever it goes from clutch pulled, to engaged without much clutch travel? Must be some sort of high performance clutch installed I'm thinking.. I don't know how to fix that, I'm just rehashing what you said without a purpose 

Edit, maybe the lever under the engine where the clutch cable attached is bent..

Yes, engages very quickly. There is very little "friction zone" travel at the lever.

[malik]

A recessed outer body is supposed to be an indication of worn throwout components - for the prettiest pictures, see https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=70092.0.
Different Guzzi, but should be the same mechanism.
I'd first check the thrust (or throwout) bearing - easy enough to get to with the rear wheel off & the swingarm out of the way. Take off the clutch arm, check that it is not bent & that the clevis pin is undamaged. & moves freely.Then pull out the outer body, use a magnet to remove the throwout bearing. With any luck, it may only be that -$10-12 your money for a new one.

Sooner or later you are going to want to take out the clutch & inspect everything, but best check out the easier to get to bits first, as later may be more convenient than sooner. Good luck.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

It never has much friction zone.  It's rideable, but a PITA.

There are no receipts, so I don't know what "kind" of clutch plates were installed. It came with a couple of boxes of spares, including what appears to be new clutch plates.

Sounds like my '71 Ambo "Barney" when it had Sureflex friction plates in it. Clutch like a light switch.

A recessed outer body is supposed to be an indication of worn throwout components

Or new clutch plates...

[Tom H]

If I'm reading this right, the clutch engages and disengages properly, but it has a very small area of travel that it is on or off. I think I read something about Sureflex friction discs that may cause this feeling.

I'm sure that you have the handlebar lever and the trans lever adjusted correctly.

A new clutch plate will also cause the plunger to sit in a bit, Remember a new plate causes the pressure plate disc to sit in the flywheel deeper.

Tom

Charlie beat me to it

[rocker59]

Yeah, my money is on "racing" clutch plates.  That fire-breathing G5 needs 'em, don't ya know?

[Chuck in Indiana]

Sounds like my '71 Ambo "Barney" when it had Sureflex friction plates in it. Clutch like a light switch.

Or new clutch plates...

So I'm assuming there is really no way to tell what plates are in it without some

     I would go with the Dungeness and a fine Pinot Gris to complement that sauce!

and

I'll send along a good recipe for butter sauce .

and I'm also assuming it won't get any better with wear?

[RinkRat II]

      Unfortunately it looks like crabbing is in your future. All the advice above seems to indicate you won't really know until it's apart. Hey Now! another hi-quality "Chuck Tutorial" in the works??

        Paul B

[Guzzidad]

MG Cycle sells a slightly longer outer body ( the clutch throw out bearing gizmo ). It's something like .040" longer than original. I put one in my Sport and it solved the issue I was having. And, it's only about $25. Your issue, could be the clutch plates were installed backwards. That could cause the outer body to be recessed. The new, longer outer body could compensate for that.

[pehayes]

Would never install properly or work at all with the plates backwards.
Does this happen differently if cold or hot?  If cold, then it could be oil contamination.  The oil makes the plates sticky and grabby but improves as it heats up.  If hot, then it likely indicates central hub or flywheel splines.
In either case, prepare to crab the frame.

Oh, and if you do, upgrade to the 4mm hub and plates.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Idontwantapickle]

Sounds like my '71 Ambo "Barney" when it had Sureflex friction plates in it. Clutch like a light switch.

Or new clutch plates...

I'd bet Charlie's reputation that it's got Sureflex clutch plates. BTDT. How is it they still make those?
Hunter

[voncrump]

I put Sureflex plates in my 1100 sport 6 years ago.
The first problem was getting the arm adjuster right.
It is adjusted through a long way and the lock nut is holding by about 3/4 depth.
Next problem was Getting used to the very early take up of the clutch.
What I mean is that as soon as the lever starts to to move from the the fully pulled in position the clutch starts to take up.
It is however a smooth engagement.
The main everyday frustration is the vast difference between the the adjustment as the clutch warms up.
Zero clearance at the lever until a bit of warmth gets into the innards and the clearance settles to normal.
I have chosen to just run it until it either settles into a proper adjustment position or it breaks in some way.
Consequently I have been treating myself to some awesome full power takeoffs.
When you get the revs up and slip the clutch a bit these bikes really take off and it doesn’t tend to lift the front.
My best experience with this was when a bloke on an Aprilia RSV1000 factory lined up with me, guess who ate my dust all the way through to third gear.
Cheers, voncrump.

[80CX100]

     Hey Chuck,     Very interesting, I have a similar trail of bread crumbs.

     When I first got my CX100 5 speed Tonti 6 yrs ago, and went through it verifying some of the mechanicals, similar to you I found my clutch push rod return spring out of place, but mine was completely gone. Not sure if the missing spring had contributed to the issue; but even though I replaced the spring and push rod bearing/seals,the clutch was always what I have read described as a "country clutch".

     I could ride the bike in any type of heat out in the back hills on country roads, and the clutch would be fine,,, but if I took it into the city with any type of stop and go traffic, especially if it was hot out, I would lose my clutch as you've described.

     I think I've read those symptoms attributed to warped clutch plates or damaged/failing fastening rivets also notched hubs as mentioned by others.

     I was totally good riding it the way it was, but the guzzi gods had other plans. 

     I will have the opportunity to do the clutch and hub when I crab the bike at some point to have a look at a separate tranny issue. 

     I'll be following your adventure closely   

     Good luck with it

     Kelly

    Edit  Ps,   I just read your other post about this being a new bike congrats on the new ride. I noticed in your other post you mention needing to balance the carbs; I'm not sure how or why, but I know when I balanced my carbs, my "country clutch" symptoms improved quite a bit, fwiw.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Sure sounds like it has Sureflex plates in it from reading the descriptions above.

MG Cycle sells a slightly longer outer body ( the clutch throw out bearing gizmo ). It's something like .040" longer than original. I put one in my Sport and it solved the issue I was having. And, it's only about $25.

TWENTY FIVE DOLLARS?? <biting off corncob pipe stem and snapping suspenders> I could make one for nothing..

[Groover]

"I think" if there were a way to make the operating lever (part 12) straight and shorter, it would give more friction range to the hand lever in this case, but at cost of making the clutch lever harder to pull. Though, with the clutch cable adjustment being where it is, not sure it can be done. I'd say hit the machine shop and make something, and if it works, then you have the fix and a sellable product to go with those Sureflex clutches :-)

[brider]

Could this be a notched input shaft?

If it was a notched input hub (the term I'm more familiar with, since that part is shot on my Automatic), the clutch might reluctantly dis-engage even with the clutch pulled all the way in, until you hold the rear brake and blip the throttle slightly to free the plates from the "notches". If you're not seeing a hint of this behavior, it's probably not the input hub, but the plates, as others have deduced.

Had a similar problem on my old '74 Eldo, got worse as it got hot. Stop-go traffic was awful, was wishing I was on my Auto every time that happened.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

"I think" if there were a way to make the operating lever (part 12) straight and shorter, it would give more friction range to the hand lever in this case, but at cost of making the clutch lever harder to pull. Though, with the clutch cable adjustment being where it is, not sure it can be done. I'd say hit the machine shop and make something, and if it works, then you have the fix and a sellable product to go with those Sureflex clutches :-)

The Eldorado clutch arm was straight, but not really any shorter. If used on a Tonti, it would likely hit the frame. I really don't think it would help anyway.

[Idontwantapickle]

A little history. When I bought the "almost new" G5, the previous owner told me that when it got hot, the clutch was grabby.
When I brought it home and put it up on the lift, I found the clutch actuating arm spring out of it's well, and trapped sideways. Smiled, figured I had this little problem solved, and started riding it. It was much better, but still didn't have much friction zone when hot.
Now, I'm making progress. It never has much friction zone.  It's rideable, but a PITA.
Looking at the maintenance records, it had it's transmission rebuilt, new clutch, and apparently a new flywheel 12K miles ago.
9-30-13 88027
Rebuilt transmission with all new bearings and seals.
New clutch
New rear main seal.
Fly wheel.
There are no receipts, so I don't know what "kind" of clutch plates were installed. It came with a couple of boxes of spares, including what appears to be new clutch plates.
So, what am I looking at? The throwout bearing gizmo is recessed about .030-.040" The clutch doesn't slip or drag. Could this be a notched input shaft? The clutch actuating arm has "plenty" of clearance to the case.
TIA

Chuck,
The bottom line is if you continue to ride it with abrupt engagement it will destroy every splined connection in the drivetrain. $$$$
Don't delay.

Hunter

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Chuck,
The bottom line is if you continue to ride it with abrupt engagement it will destroy every splined connection in the drivetrain. $$$$
Don't delay.

Hunter

The Sureflex plates in "Barney" destroyed the (aftermarket) clutch hub in about 15k miles. Everything else was fine.

[brider]

TWENTY FIVE DOLLARS?? <biting off corncob pipe stem and snapping suspenders> I could make one for nothing..

  Everytime you do this I get a visual and almost pee my pants laughing! I'll bet you really do chew on a corncob pipe and snap your (wide) suspenders!

[Chuck in Indiana]

Everytime you do this I get a visual and almost pee my pants laughing! I'll bet you really do chew on a corncob pipe and snap your (wide) suspenders!

Gotta keep the stereotype alive.. <spitting>  Gots plenty of red suspenders for being the oldest rider on a Guzzi at rallies.
Since the longer outer body gizmo is only 25 bucks, I'll try one, although I have a hard time seeing what good it will do.. <shrug> There's a *little* oil on the back of the transmission, and the double O rings Shirley  would help that..

[John A]

Chuck, try a spacer between the clutch lever perch and the handlebar. I made one about 3/8" or 1/4" thick, half moon shaped to move the lever away from the bar. It gives it more throw so you can have plenty of free play and still get good plate separation . It only works on split clamp style perch, of course and the fit has to be good or you will break the clamp when you tighten it. Don't ask how I found that out.  I found this trick when trying to get Ram clutches to last. I liked it so I use it on regular clutches where it works well. I also recommend a ClickAdjust lever unless you have large hands.http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=38&products_id=1209 http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=38&products_id=1215u
https://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/british-standard-handlebar-shims-reducers-run-7-8-inch-handlebars-with-1-inch-risers-or-p-clamps.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwb6Ezamp4wIVB7XACh3BRgwCEAQYCCABEgKUO_D_BwE  Similar to this except thicker in th middle and tapered to the edges

[Chuck in Indiana]

Chuck, try a spacer between the clutch lever perch and the handlebar. I made one about 3/8" or 1/4" thick, half moon shaped to move the lever away from the bar. It gives it more throw so you can have plenty of free play and still get good plate separation . It only works on split clamp style perch, of course and the fit has to be good or you will break the clamp when you tighten it. Don't ask how I found that out.  I found this trick when trying to get Ram clutches to last. I liked it so I use it on regular clutches where it works well. I also recommend a ClickAdjust lever unless you have large hands.http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=38&products_id=1209 http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=38&products_id=1215u
https://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/british-standard-handlebar-shims-reducers-run-7-8-inch-handlebars-with-1-inch-risers-or-p-clamps.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwb6Ezamp4wIVB7XACh3BRgwCEAQYCCABEgKUO_D_BwE  Similar to this except thicker in th middle and tapered to the edges

Thanks, John.. but I don't have a split clutch perch. The real problem is it takes very little movement of the lever from engaged to disengaged. I have *plenty* of lever travel after the clutch is disengaged.. the end of the lever is about 1" from the grip at that point.

[Groover]

That's why I think a shorter lever at the engine would help. Would need to be about half the length of the factory one if it clears the frame and doesn't make too sharp of a turn for the cable. I haven't even looked under to bike to see if that is even possible, so I'm suggesting something here that may not even be possible, and not everyone could make (but you've got the skills  ) It's a leverage ratio play in my mind, and I'm basing this off of some Vespa experience I had when I was younger. Certain model Vespa from the late 60's had a short clutch lever at the engine, then later they were using longer levers to make the feel at the handlebar more "comfortable" however, this change made the clutch behave differently too. Just thinking this is a comparable scenario.

[John A]

I'm thinking now that a slightly warped floater would do it.  I've seen others and have warped a floater myself when I was a kid .  They can be saved with careful wailing on it with a bfh but it's false economy, they warp to a cone shape.
So your going to have to yard it apart unfortunately .