Author Topic: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300  (Read 55912 times)

dddd

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2013, 01:58:27 PM »
Quote from youcanrunnakled:
My 8V does not have any fueling problems and only during the first 500 miles or so did I have a low-speed hesitation, but not since. The driveline snatchiness I do not consider a problem but then I may just be used to it, remember I came from a T-3. There is still some popping on overrun but I do not see that as a problem or a negative. The windscreen buttons could be better placed but I have learned to use them on the move with minimal inconvenience and mostly adjust it when stopped anyway. The 8V either eliminated or significantly improved most of the complaints of the older Norges. Since the Norge is not really a sport bike I do not see a need for a slipper clutch. The throttle response is smooth enough that riding in the rain or on dirt does not require a "mode". Cruise control would be a nice touch however.
GliderJohn


I would have to agree with this as well. I have over 18000 k's on mine and never experienced pinging or fueling problems, apart from a stepper motor issue that is now resolved the bike is faultless.
 I can tell you that I have spent quite a bit of time on a friends fjr and in comparison to the 8v Norge it felt quite a lot heavier through the corners and to me lacked a bit of bottom end and mid range (which really surprised me) but had really good top end, which is really not that usefull in the canyans but is fun in the straight stuff
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 02:06:56 PM by dddd »

Offline Bill N

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2013, 03:51:02 PM »
I would have to agree with this as well. I have over 18000 k's on mine and never experienced pinging or fueling problems, apart from a stepper motor issue that is now resolved the bike is faultless.
 I can tell you that I have spent quite a bit of time on a friends fjr and in comparison to the 8v Norge it felt quite a lot heavier through the corners and to me lacked a bit of bottom end and mid range (which really surprised me) but had really good top end, which is really not that usefull in the canyans but is fun in the straight stuff
Can understand your impresion the FJR is heavier which might have been influenced by an old front tire or maybe it just felt heavier, who knows. But the last thing I'd say about my 09 FJR is that it "lacked a bit of bottom end and mid range." Well most spec's on the FJR show about 7 seconds from 0 to 100 MPH. For me that's performance in the low to mid range and I think its impressive. Personally I've not experienced its top end but it should be around 155 MPH or so. The FJR will fool you. It's so smooth and quiet (stock), and the slight lean forward positon hides the G forces of its awesome acceleration. After about 6000 RPM watch the speedo, you'll be in the triple digits in seconds.   Don't misunderstand my comments. I'd love to have  a new Norge, but I wouldn't expect it equal my FJR at bottom to mid range acceleration.
Best wishes, Bill  :pop

dddd

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2013, 10:41:33 PM »
Can understand your impresion the FJR is heavier which might have been influenced by an old front tire or maybe it just felt heavier, who knows. But the last thing I'd say about my 09 FJR is that it "lacked a bit of bottom end and mid range." Well most spec's on the FJR show about 7 seconds from 0 to 100 MPH. For me that's performance in the low to mid range and I think its impressive. Personally I've not experienced its top end but it should be around 155 MPH or so. The FJR will fool you. It's so smooth and quiet (stock), and the slight lean forward positon hides the G forces of its awesome acceleration. After about 6000 RPM watch the speedo, you'll be in the triple digits in seconds.   Don't misunderstand my comments. I'd love to have  a new Norge, but I wouldn't expect it equal my FJR at bottom to mid range acceleration.
Best wishes, Bill  :pop

When I said it lacked a bit of bottom end and mid range performance I was not referring to speed in any way, I was referring to engine RPM ie the engines performance throughout its operating range. Of corse if you wanted to talk speed the FJR has a lot more horsepower up high in the RPM and it is obviously a lot faster

Offline youcanrunnaked

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2013, 12:00:00 AM »
When I said it lacked a bit of bottom end and mid range performance I was not referring to speed in any way, I was referring to engine RPM ie the engines performance throughout its operating range. Of corse if you wanted to talk speed the FJR has a lot more horsepower up high in the RPM and it is obviously a lot faster

I think your butt dyno might need recalibration.   Between the Norge and the FJR, the two bikes have nearly identical bottom-end torque figures:

Norge 8V -- 60 ft / lb @2,200 rpm
FJR 1300 -- 60 ft / lb @2,000 rpm

After they pass that threshold, it's no contest.  The FJR stomps the Norge:





@ 2,700 rpm -- Norge = 61 ft / lb; FJR = 70 ft / lb
@ 3,100 rpm -- Norge = 58 ft / lb; FJR = 74 ft / lb
@ 3,500 rpm -- Norge = 56 ft / lb; FJR = 79 ft / lb

Compared to the Norge, which has a significant flat spot in its torque curve just off 2,200 rpm, the FJR is a powerhouse.  Even without the comparison, however, your "impression" of a "lack of bottom end and mid range performance" is simply false.  The FJR has a huge swell of torque from 1,800 rpm all the way to 3,800 rpm, and then another surge of torque at 5,000 rpm.

If you think 85 ft /lbs @ 5,200 rpm is a "weak" mid-range, what exactly are you riding?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 12:04:21 AM by youcanrunnaked »
"The transverse vibration is a great sensation -- hey, I think I just wrote a song!"
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"If Moto Guzzi were any more of a cult, you'd need a chicken."
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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2013, 12:00:00 AM »

dddd

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #64 on: December 06, 2013, 03:27:23 AM »
I think your butt dyno might need recalibration.   Between the Norge and the FJR, the two bikes have nearly identical bottom-end torque figures:

Norge 8V -- 60 ft / lb @2,200 rpm
FJR 1300 -- 60 ft / lb @2,000 rpm

After they pass that threshold, it's no contest.  The FJR stomps the Norge:





@ 2,700 rpm -- Norge = 61 ft / lb; FJR = 70 ft / lb
@ 3,100 rpm -- Norge = 58 ft / lb; FJR = 74 ft / lb
@ 3,500 rpm -- Norge = 56 ft / lb; FJR = 79 ft / lb

Compared to the Norge, which has a significant flat spot in its torque curve just off 2,200 rpm, the FJR is a powerhouse.  Even without the comparison, however, your "impression" of a "lack of bottom end and mid range performance" is simply false.  The FJR has a huge swell of torque from 1,800 rpm all the way to 3,800 rpm, and then another surge of torque at 5,000 rpm.

If you think 85 ft /lbs @ 5,200 rpm is a "weak" mid-range, what exactly are you riding?

My apologies it would appear I am obviously wrong going of that dyno chart. I can say that when I got the bike new from the dealer it did feel as if it had a flat spot through the mid range as that torque curve suggest however after our MR Roper gave it its first service and reset the throttle bodies and valves (which were hopelessly out) it ran considerably stronger through the mid range which makes me wonder about the state of tune some of these MG press bikes go out like.
Putting that aside there is more to performance than just torque curves, gearing combined with the number of gears in each gearbox, weight of machine all contribute to overall feel.
These were simply my observations after swapping bikes for a considerable time. However don't worry in future I will keep my opinion to myself as would hate to think it would clash with anyone else's opinion

biking sailor

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #65 on: December 06, 2013, 06:14:45 AM »
dddd, don't get your panties wadded brother!   ;D

Seriously, all opinions are needed to make this an interesting place to visit.  My butt dino tells me my CBR600RR has more torque than the FJR I have spent time on, even though I know it doesn't, on paper.  The Yamaha is big, heavy, and smooth which is deceptive in feel compared to a smaller, lighter, more agile bike which makes the smaller bikes feel like they explode out from under you.  Kinda like the difference in feel between a sports car and a go cart.

Just the fact that I have never felt like the front wheel of the FJR I rode was going skyward when I hit the throttle pretty hard, unlike the CBR, doesn't mean it wasn't putting down some serious power and speed.  Sometimes it's just how your senses interpret what you feel.

Darren

Falko

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #66 on: December 06, 2013, 07:42:15 AM »
Yeah, the FJR is deceptive. I had an 09 and it would pull pretty hard down low, hit 5500 or so revs and it would start to lengthen your arms. Once you start to hear the "turbine type whine" you are really starting to move. But honestly, I rode all the time with my friend on his Norge (which is why I went to MG) and he never had an issue sticking with me unless we were on a dead straight in passing mode. But I always had an issue staying on his 6 in the twisties. The FJR definitely will pull like a freight train, but imo, it doesn't run on rails.

Offline youcanrunnaked

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #67 on: December 06, 2013, 10:21:30 AM »
dddd, I meant no offense.  Sometimes things posted on the internet do not have the tone one would convey in person.  Know that I welcome all opinions.

Sights, sounds and feel all contribute to the sensation of speed.  Many years ago I owned an MGB.  It was small, loud, low to the ground, and with the top down in fifth gear and the gas pedal floored, I thought I was flying.  The reality was that car made just north of 100 hp (there was some tuning done to it), but it "felt" fast.

I used to own a Norge so I know it feels faster than it is.  The initial tip-in is strong, the engine is clattery, exhaust is throaty, and the speedometer is <ahem> optimistic.  I've also ridden a friend's FJR, and my take is that it is deceptively fast.  The engine and exhaust are nearly silent, the aerodynamics are outstanding, and the pull from the engine is linear.  It is, however, the stronger engine, all the way through the rev range.   
"The transverse vibration is a great sensation -- hey, I think I just wrote a song!"
-- Billy Joel, Motorcyclist, 02/2012

"If Moto Guzzi were any more of a cult, you'd need a chicken."
--- Dan Neil, The Wall Street Journal, 04/19/2013

biking sailor

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #68 on: December 06, 2013, 11:57:32 AM »
Isn't that where the "I'd rather ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow" saying came from?   ;-T

Darren

Offline Bill N

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #69 on: December 06, 2013, 04:48:04 PM »
dddd
My response to your post mainly was the FJR is not lacking but superior in low, mid, and high performance. The graph's others have posted have proved that. That's all I challenged. I have a 1998 Guzzi EV. If I were on a twisty road on my EV driving against myself on my 09 FJR, I'd be pulling ahead on my Guzzi. My EV corners like a sport bike.  Like I said I'd love to own a Norge, but I'll never say my FJR is lacking in low or mid range performance.
Best wishes, Bill :pop

Offline Waltr

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #70 on: December 06, 2013, 06:14:57 PM »
  I have no experience with the FJR. My last bike was a Kawasaki C-14 2012. It lasted with me just one year before buying the bike I should have in the first place, a 2012 Norge.  I rode both of the bikes before I bought the Kaw and the Guzzi just did not impress on a far to short test drive.  I never got comfortable on the Kawasaki and went through 3 seats lower pegs and numerous risers and bar adjusters. I did a 6 day tour on the c-14 and just ended feeling beat up.  Could not fault the engine and with an Aeroflow windshield there was zero helmet buffeting and noise. I found myself contemplating Ohlins shocks when I came to my senses and sold it.  As good as some feel the handling is on the C-14 I never got to the point where I felt the bike was intuitive to ride.
  The Norge to me just works. I have just 700 miles on the bike, the last two hundred on a ride I did of around 200 miles on December 4'th, just got the bike a few weeks ago.  I used to pull my feet off the pegs and stretch my legs on the Kaw constantly but somehow the Norge doesn't require this stretch. If you check the motorcycle ergo website you can punch in For me the Guzzi requires very little attention to ride at moderate speeds on curves.  The Norge has a far superior highway ride.
  I know I am not talking about the FJR and if you have one  and love it good for you all I know with as few miles as I have on the Guzzi I am not looking back.
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2012 Norge

Offline LowRyter

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #71 on: December 06, 2013, 08:54:53 PM »
hey Walt,  Firesign Theater fan?

Oh Blinding Light,
Oh Light that Blinds,
 Look out for Me,
I can not See.

 ;D
John L 
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Offline bratman2

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2013, 09:18:13 AM »
Shear horsepower and acceleration is only one aspect of many for a motorcycle! It has to fit also like above!
Glenn Taylor
09 Norge with Staintune and Rexxer reflash
87 Subaru Brat (owned since 97)

dddd

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2013, 02:44:10 PM »
I knew my comment about the FJR lacking a bit of bottom end and mid range (in comparison to the Norge) would raise an eyebrow or two as I realise it sounds over the top, but I would ask if you ever get the chance to ride a properly tuned and run in 8V Norge  back to back with an FJR through twisting, winding roads (not just straight roads ) and simply ask yourself which is leaping out of corners faster which is getting through the corners easier and faster.
 
It was the FJR owners comment that the Norge was leaping away out of corners from him that prompted us to swap bikes in the first place. I also believe it may have something to do with the way the V twin puts its power to the ground as well. At the end of the day we both agreed the Guzzi may not have as much torque on paper but 100% of what it does have is all usable and that combined with the lighter more nimble feel of the bike is what gets it through the canyons faster.

There is no doubt that when the roads straighten out and the speed increases the large top end power advantage the FJR has makes it a much faster bike, which is the better bike comes down to where your priorities lie

I should point out that his FJR was an early model,  have they changed much over the years, I'm not sure

Getting back to my comment about not just going off dyno charts, take a look at a dyno graph of say a 2012 Harley CVO street glide, if we were to go off the torque curve of that it would be unbeatable up to 4500 rpm but in real life of coarse we know just the opposite is true. As I said earlier you just cant go of dyno charts alone
« Last Edit: December 07, 2013, 02:59:06 PM by dddd »

Offline Bill N

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2013, 03:25:43 PM »
dddd
Your comment ..."lacking a bit of bottom end and mid-range"... relates in my opinion to acceleration performance not cornering.  I thik that's what some of us disagree with you about, 'cause it just ain't so in comparison to the Norge. However all the other things you compared I have no issue with. Like I wrote even on my humble EV I can out corner my FJR. Although I know riders that could smoke me terribly on the corners with a C-14 or a FJR and leave me far behind. All that's important is you have the bike that works for you.  I think it was mostly your choice of words that created the disagreement.  :BEER:
Bill

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #75 on: December 26, 2013, 04:54:41 AM »
I LIVE IN Guernsey in the Channel Islands 25 miles from France. Currently own a 1999 Honda Blackbird and a 2007 Norge GT. The Honda has never let me down in 14 years and starts at the first press of the starter. I bought the Norge for European touring 2-3000 mile trips once a year. Sadly, the Norge has broken down every trip! I love the bike but the reliability issues have knocked my confidence and its going to be replaced with an FJR.

Offline Waltr

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #76 on: December 26, 2013, 05:34:36 AM »
Yes, Firesign Theater.  
  On paper the bikes do not compare.  I bought my Norge to tour though and Yamaha does not recommend the FJR be loaded with a tourpack and passenger.  As far as dyno graphs they show full throttle response, who rides a touring bike like that?
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 05:42:49 AM by Waltr »
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Offline Zoom Zoom

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #77 on: December 26, 2013, 05:41:05 AM »
Sorry to hear about your bad experience Marty. We would probably be interested to hear what has happened to your Norge. There are a few things that have been well discussed on bikes during that era. The half plastic fuel filter inside the tank comes to mind. Taken care of preemptively is about an hour job when it is not sitting along the road. The other was the wire on the headlight bulb rubbing through and blowing the main fuse. Again, very easy to deal with when it is your idea at home. Mojohand has gone through several oil pressure sending units. For whatever reason, his is an unusual occurrence. (We have not heard of this being something affecting many bikes.)

Tribe Fan, I too had a Norge. Unlike some that have posted here, I took care of things in advance. (2007 model.) Easy and inexpensive things like the fuel filter noted above. The bike was trouble free and I liked it a lot. I traded mine for a Stelvio looking for more leg room. For the most part, any sport tourer will be somewhat limited in regard to seating position. My complaint with the Norge was that you are pretty much locked into ONE riding position, which is fine for a while. After that, the inability to move around a little bit would leave my knees and hip hurting. I do realize some of the ST's can be fitted with additional pegs to allow you some movement. If some mobility is a concern to you, investigate it before you buy. If you're not completely convinced you have to have a sport tourer, than consider a Stelvio or similar.

John Henry  

Offline guzziks

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #78 on: December 26, 2013, 08:31:38 AM »
Marty, please let us know what your breakdowns consisted of.  I have a 2007 and I wonder what is waiting to happen?  I take short trips each year, but still would not like to breakdown anywhere.

Thanks

Walt
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Offline Nic in Western NYS

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #79 on: December 26, 2013, 06:26:19 PM »
An inline 4 just isn't comparable to the Guzzi v-twin.  If the sound/feel of the engine matters, you'll really prefer one over the other.  The frequency of the vibrations transmitted to the rider are very different.  Make sure you like the inline 4's buzz versus the lower frequency pulsing of the twin. 

I had a Honda V-4 Magna and it felt more like a v-twin.  Have you considered the Honda ST1300 with the V4?

Nic
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Offline mojohand

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #80 on: December 26, 2013, 08:28:23 PM »
Yes, Firesign Theater.  
  On paper the bikes do not compare.  I bought my Norge to tour though and Yamaha does not recommend the FJR be loaded with a tourpack and passenger.  As far as dyno graphs they show full throttle response, who rides a touring bike like that?

I think there's a bit of a discrepancy here. As evidence....

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Offline Waltr

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #81 on: December 26, 2013, 09:01:40 PM »
I said passenger and tourpack so unless your passenger is in that little box I don't see a misstatement .  This is Yamaha's recommendation not mine. I owned a Kaw C14 and they did list a higher payload vs Yamaha.  Other than that if had bought the Yamaha instead of the C14 I could well have been an all around better bike for me and I might have never bought the Guzzi.   When I sold the Kaw after a year and at a big loss there were no tears shed. 
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Falko

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2013, 07:47:38 AM »
I think there's a bit of a discrepancy here. As evidence....



FJR's (genI and genII, not sure about the latest) had an issue with weight breaking the subframe structure in the rear of the bike. The recommended only about 10lbs in the top case or something ridiculous. I guess they didn't want a rear case loaded then a passenger leaning on it as well. That said, I loaded mine full for camping multiple times, and hauled a stack of firewood on it across about a mile of back bumpy dirt roads, never an issue. But I have seen pics of broken subs in the cast area of the back. All bikes have their hiccups.

Offline Scott of the Sahara

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #83 on: December 27, 2013, 09:20:36 AM »
I sat on a FJR 1300. Too tall for me. I did not have to ride it, it simply didn't fit.
I did not want an inline 4, I wanted a twin. I do not want to ride a sewing machine, and I don't want to cruise at 100mph.
A friend of mine from Church has a FJR 1300 and he has done a 1500 mile day on it. I don't think that would be possible on the Norge

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #84 on: December 27, 2013, 09:43:51 AM »
I sat on a FJR 1300. Too tall for me. I did not have to ride it, it simply didn't fit.
I did not want an inline 4, I wanted a twin. I do not want to ride a sewing machine, and I don't want to cruise at 100mph.
A friend of mine from Church has a FJR 1300 and he has done a 1500 mile day on it. I don't think that would be possible on the Norge

Sure it would.. <shrug>
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal
 
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Offline blackcat

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #85 on: December 27, 2013, 09:51:31 AM »
I don't think that would be possible on the Norge

Why do you think it wouldn't be possible?
1968 Norton Fastback
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JohninVT`

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #86 on: December 27, 2013, 10:39:13 AM »
I like the FJR1300.  I like the ST1300 even more but they're both stupendously huge feeling.  I almost bought a ST but came to my senses when I thought about trying to manhandle it around in my steep, dirt driveway.

Riders on FJR's have broken more long distance riding records and won more IBA rallies than any other bike since the model was introduced.  If you want to win or place in the top ten in Ironbutt, you'd better ride a FJR.....at least that's what the results the last decade would lead you to believe. 

Falko

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #87 on: December 27, 2013, 10:46:50 AM »
FJR have some things going for them in long distance riding, speed, decent distance mileage, ergos, reliability. If I had to drive across the country in a short period of time, the FJR would be my first choice. If I had to choose a back road all day riding machine, it wouldn't be the FJR.

Offline mojohand

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #88 on: December 27, 2013, 11:27:01 AM »
FJR have some things going for them in long distance riding, speed, decent distance mileage, ergos, reliability. If I had to drive across the country in a short period of time, the FJR would be my first choice. If I had to choose a back road all day riding machine, it wouldn't be the FJR.

FJR for multiple days, both back roads and highways, in my book. Quite frankly, if my experience with Guzzi reliability were better, I'd not be moving from the brand. But multiple issues later, I'll relegate Raven to a day-tripper only.
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Previous: 2000 Jackal, 04 Breva 750, 06 Breva 1100, 07 Norge, 09 Griso, 12 Norge, 14 FJR, 14 Striple, 16 SpeedTriple, 18 KTM Super Adventure S

Offline mojohand

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Re: 2012 MG Norge or 2013 Yamaha FJR 1300
« Reply #89 on: December 27, 2013, 05:01:18 PM »
The February 2014 issue of Rider magazine has a review of the FJR1300ES, focusing on its electronic suspension. At the end of a balanced article it says,

"With or without electronic suspension, the FJR1300 remains one of the best deals in sport--excuse me, supersport--touring. Fast, smooth, nimble and comfortable with good wind protection, hard luggage and a big gas tank, it's ready for any journey, be it a Sunday morning ride or consecutive 1,000-mile days."

À chacun son goût, of course, but I thought some readers of this topic might be interested.
Richmond, VA, USA
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Previous: 2000 Jackal, 04 Breva 750, 06 Breva 1100, 07 Norge, 09 Griso, 12 Norge, 14 FJR, 14 Striple, 16 SpeedTriple, 18 KTM Super Adventure S

 

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