New "liquid-cooled" Bonnevilles for 2016

[Kev m]

Our local dealer of triumph and moto guzzi says this is for real.  He showed me these pics couple months ago.  They are talking 100hp and water cooled.  Probably be 14kish.

None of that makes sense.  .... Don't get me wrong, it makes sense to update and make the Bonnie more powerful, BUT currently it's their entry level bike that starts for about $8k. They're not going to double the HP and double the price if it's the only model in the line up.

I guess if this happens (100 hp/ $14k) the current model isn't going away.

[bpreynolds]

Our local dealer of triumph and moto guzzi says this is for real.  He showed me these pics couple months ago.  They are talking 100hp and water cooled.  Probably be 14kish.

Ahem.  I already have a water cooled Bonnie that is sub 500lbs and will soon turn out this power, or at least I hope, if my less than capable hands can put it all back together.  Well okay, whatever, it ain't a Bonnie and it's definitely not modern.  AND it's in pieces in my garage.  BUT I didn't pay near 14k for mine.   :BEER:
Supposedly after the rejetting, airbox mod, and new cams, bike turns out near 94ish rwh.  At the rate I'm going, however, it looks like this Bonnie will land before me and all the king's horses and men get this one put back together.   :-[

[skromfols]

My 08 America weights 500 lbs (dry) and now makes 70 RWHP, which is adequate for a cruiser and I easily stay with much larger displacement bikes on group rides.  While I invested some time and money into increasing the hp, Triumph could easily do the same thing for much less money without significantly changing the looks or increasing the weight of the bike. 

My Moto Guzzi Nevada now provides 51 RWHP, but weights 100 lbs less than the America and is a blast to ride in the two lane twisties.  Again, it took time and money to add hp to the little Goose, but MG could do the same thing for much less money and have a great little cruiser.

Just my two cents.

[redrider]

I like the placement on the Benelli and no heat on me.

[skromfols]

You can have 2 of the 3 items below, but not all 3 at the same time.  Thankfully we have enough choices that we can balance the 3 items to meet our needs/bank account.

low cost, less weight, higher horsepower

[Kev m]

HD's been doing it for years with the entry level 883. It is in fact sold at a loss. Investment in future sales, they actually track the percentage for the return buyer at one point on that model.

Ducati makes money but not that much on the Monster sales. Triumph makes money on the Bonneville based on production cost spread out over many years. Very little change on that bike since 01. They stayed in the red on that bike for many years. Bloor used it as a write off for his Real Estate company.

Kindly show me where you have the evidence that the 883 is sold at a loss?

I'm sure dealer margins are lower on it, just like the V7. So it's possible corporate margins are too. But I doubt they are actually losing money.

Sure the business plan is to use the entry level product to upsell that customer to a more expensive and more profitable model in the future, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily losing on the base model.

If you accept that Triumph had amortized the cost of the Bonnie then shyte Harley has covered that on the 883 considering they've sold about 500,000 Sportsters since the last major redesign.

[rocker59]

When I sold Harleys for a short time a decade ago, they were not sold at a loss.

[bpreynolds]

I doubt if HD would take an ongoing loss.  Maybe ask Erik Buell.

[Kev m]

So which is it? Is the dealer purvey or not? You've said both.

[Kev m]

I'm young enough to be your kid, and other than a slight hangover quite happy thanks.

:-*

[rocker59]

It's not worth arguing over and what the hell is the point anyway?
 

Good question.  And one you should ask yourself.

This site is filled with people with way above average interest and experience in motorcycles.  Of all kinds.

[Kev m]

8)

[rocker59]

Why , because we are disagreeing with you ? Or at least asking for something besides " Well , I know more than you guys do"  ???

  Dusty

d00d!  He "rides with" the owner of a dealership.  Even worked there 30 years ago!  Surely he has insight into the industry none of us could fathom!

 ;)

[Kev m]

d00d!  He "rides with" the owner of a dealership.  Even worked there 30 years ago!  Surely he has insight into the industry none of us could fathom!

 ;)

:-X  ;D  :D

[pyoungbl]

This talk about loss leaders (hopefully not lost leaders, but you never know for sure) is proof that we are in the cabin fever stage of winter.  There is absolutely no way to know what the real cost of production is for any motorcycle, particularly when the brand makes a few different models.  I don't care if you own a dealership or sleep in a Holiday Inn, the actual cost is going to be such a fuzzy number it will be virtually unknowable.  You would have to do some voodoo math that blends the cost of all parts, labor, machine costs, depreciation, advertising, warranty reserve, insurance, and other overhead.  Even figuring out if the company is making an overall profit can be daunting.  I do not think for a minute that Ducati, Triumph, or HD would sell a model at a loss except to get rid of old inventory.  Even then, the actual cost of making one basic motorcycle (not counting all the overhead stuff) can't be more than a few thousand dollars.  I'm not talking about some cutting edge model, just a basic lump like the 883.  HD can probably crank out one with less than 10 hours labor.  The parts alone are not exotic and they certainly have an experienced workforce.  Ducati is making a parts bin bike too so the cost can't be huge when you factor in the numbers they will crank out.  No, I believe these guys are smart and have determined that they will make a profit on every single one of these bikes.  As I recall, Ducati is building theirs in China so labor costs must be rock bottom.

Just my $.02

Peter Y.   (an opinionated old fart who does get out into fresh air)

[Joliet Jim]

I just want to know what cost accounting method they use, standard, direct, full absorption
, etc. ;D

[redrider]

 :pop

[Kev m]

GuzziV7fan, I don't know you and I have no idea why you've chosen to take a simple discussion about cycle manufacturers and reduce it to nothing but name calling.

My advice is that such tactics don't help the discussion or make friends.

[skromfols]

Is this really worth losing sleep over?  My nephew works for Wal Mart and I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and I declare this argument over.

PS.  And I read somewhere that Harley makes more selling clothes. Jewelry, and other Do Dads that say Harley than they make on motorcycles.

[rocker59]

GuzziV7fan, I don't know you and I have no idea why you've chosen to take a simple discussion about cycle manufacturers and reduce it to nothing but name calling.

My advice is that such tactics don't help the discussion or make friends.

+1

Personal attacks and name calling don't usually end well.....

[Kev m]

I read somewhere that Harley makes more selling clothes. Jewelry, and other Do Dads that say Harley than they make on motorcycles.

This is an oft stated theory that I've looked into and never found any convincing evidence.

If you read the annual reports the revenue differences between merchandizing and bike/parts sales are staggering. So based on that alone I suspect it's a myth.

But I would argue it's a moot point. If the bikes went away the merchandizing would dry up.

If the money was sufficient in merchandizing alone I suspect Polaris wouldn't have bothered designing and building new Indian motorcycles.

[Kev m]

My understanding , the MoCo makes money selling the trademark to the manufacturers of said merchandise , not on individual sales . The dealers however do make a good profit on Motorclothes and accessories .

  Dusty

Like I said it's all listed in the annual reports and the difference is beyond huge.

But still since we have no way to rectify overhead, cost of goods sold etc. It's all a theoretical argument.

And if it gets theoretical, since the merchandizing depends on continued existence of the motorcycles for all intents and purposes we can argue it is also the result of said sales.

As for the dealer level, no doubt they make a good profit with it or they wouldn't have so much square footage devoted to it. Right?

[Spuddy]

Altho use guys are hilarious, WTF happened to the 'new' Bonneville??

Spuddy

[Joliet Jim]

Remember when people used to get banned for personal attacks? I guess that's why they call it the good old days.
This thread went way over the line with the use of the term retard.

[Kev m]

Something weird happened here. This thread obviously isn't about THIS THREAD.

<snip>

I seriously hope that you overcome whatever is bothering you GV7F. I've been there before, lashing out because of some other pain in my life.

[redrider]

I have followed this thread because it started out well but it has degenerated into antics best suited for the 3rd grade. Name calling and physical threats are not hallmarks of adults.

GV7Fan, you have serious mental and emotional issues. Go away. I vote for Banishment. No more communion at the Guzzi Altar.

[Luap McKeever]

Remember when people used to get banned for personal attacks? I guess that's why they call it the good old days.
This thread went way over the line with the use of the term retard.

Agreed. The good old days are here again.

[Kev m]

So do we have anymore on these new Bonnie variants?

Do we still believe they will be water-cooled (as opposed to air/oil)? I kinda figure they will be, but the motors do still appear to have cooling fins.

I really do like the Triumph modern "classics".

Could really do well adding one to the fleet!

[blackcat]

I hate it when guys go off the rails when a simple, "Get off my lawn" will suffice.

[luthier]

Really this thread belongs on Illuminati.
I mean I don't think I've ever seen such language here, I'd say this thread will be gone by tomorrow morning.

PS, I can do without butt ugly Trumpies too. I know they are now reliable and bullet proof, but they just haven't got the lines right and this new one is getting even worse.
Why do half and half retro and modern? Better to embrace each direction or not go there.
Griso is the way with new look and styling, Trumpy is more like a Jap version of the once upon a time theme. The retro ones that is. The modern Trumps are honest bikes, with no pretences and great handling, Daytonas and Street Triples and such.
I'd like to see a real attempt to recreate the original Triumph engine done with modern technology. That would be something to get excited about.