Author Topic: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)  (Read 49225 times)

Offline boatdetective

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2015, 05:45:10 PM »
Would you want your wife, mother or sister treated like this in the workplace. If the answer is no how can you support your argument?

Dean  
My mother would have given the guy a piece of her mind right there- in front of everyone. He would've shrivelled up like a snail on a hotplate.
None of the women I've dated have been victims and none have let someone else speak for them or fight their battles.

Once again- to put things into perspective- we live in a world where there is slavery, ritualized rape, honor killing, and genital mutilation. The fact that this event is given such grave attention is only evidence that we can be self absorbed and unwilling to address far more pressing evils out there.

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Offline drw916

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2015, 05:46:02 PM »
From the EEOC definition:

Sexual Harassment

It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.
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Offline mtiberio

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2015, 05:48:48 PM »
great frank zappa song,
"Sexual Harassment In The Workplace"

wait for the best note ever at 49 seconds...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMd2HrY3kwk
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 05:49:13 PM by mtiberio »
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2015, 05:50:22 PM »

Just my opinion, but isn't it a good idea to treat others how you want to be treated?
JS


That's probably what got the guy going in the first place.

What's the first thing that all the guys say to each other at the first bathroom break at 10:00 AM at the annual day-long EEOC Anti-Harassment training session?

"Damn, I wish one of these babes would sexually harass ME!   Won't find ME making any complaints!"    All good fun at the bar, spring break, or Mardi Gras.   All business at work; has to be.

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2015, 05:50:22 PM »

Offline Guzzistajohn

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2015, 05:50:49 PM »
From the EEOC definition:

Sexual Harassment

It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.

Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.

Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.


That leaves alot to interpretation. I don't consider a hug a "sexual advance" do you?
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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2015, 05:57:42 PM »
In my (former) place of work, if the incident made your wife feel uncomfortable, she'd be well within her rights to file a complaint of her own, should she choose to do so.
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Offline Lannis

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2015, 05:59:07 PM »
That leaves alot to interpretation. I don't consider a hug a "sexual advance" do you?

Read it again>

{she said thank you,and held out her hand to shake his hand, at this point the guy opens his arms wide, and  tells her" Women dont shake hands, women hug" he then gave her a hug. after hugging her he states" I am going to make a woman out of you yet!" My wife , who was close by, in the next teller window, heard /saw the whole thing, and told me it made her feel embarassed, and uncomfortable.}

"I'm going to make a woman out of you yet?"  after refusing the offered handshake and forcing a hug?  He's dead, and should be.

Lannis
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 06:00:06 PM by Lannis »
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Offline Guzzistajohn

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2015, 05:59:23 PM »
That's probably what got the guy going in the first place.

What's the first thing that all the guys say to each other at the first bathroom break at 10:00 AM at the annual day-long EEOC Anti-Harassment training session?

"Damn, I wish one of these babes would sexually harass ME!   Won't find ME making any complaints!"    All good fun at the bar, spring break, or Mardi Gras.   All business at work; has to be.

Lannis

That's not my point Lannis, if I've offended someone, I would like them to tell me so and I'll apoligize and stop what ever it was I was doing. If I think your being an asshole you can bet you will know it right away, I won't go whining to HR I'll tell you so. I'd give you a chance to do better. It was a hug, not shooting her the moon.
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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2015, 06:00:14 PM »
There are issues on a number of levels here.

Apart from it being very 'Unprofessional' for a manager to go around touching his subordinates regardless of gender there is also the age difference thing which, I'm sorry, I find creepy. I'm in my late fifties but am still able to fully appreciate the attractiveness of young women but the idea of sleazing up to them and offering 'Hugs' or anything else is totally loathsome and purient! Also, as mentioned there is the 'Power' thing, Manager potentially has the ability to make decisions that will effect the career and future of their subordinates. That means that whether suggested, implied, threatened or not it could be interpreted by the subordinate that there might be repercussions if they didn't comply with the creepy request for physical contact. No employee should be put in that position.

This is not to suggest that there should never be any physical contact. Good lord we're social creatures and in a working environment like a bank or office there are always going to be times when people are reaching up to shelves or into filing cabinets and squeezing past each other in confined spaces but there is a big difference between that and some noxious perv wanting to squeeze his wrinkly old carcass against a young, female subordinate. I'd say the witness has every right to be upset. It's gross! I have no idea if I would of said something but I'd of made a few discreet enquiries around the place to see if it was the sort of thing that happened often and if it was I'd suggest something be done about it. I know if my daughter came home upset after being treated like that I'd be suggesting she make a formal complaint, (And not tell her mother otherwise Jude would probably be down there in about three seconds flat with a pair of pruning shears! She's never liked bullies!).

I'm with Lannis. Creep is an antediluvian throwback! It's the twenty first century! We don't need dickheads like this running anything more demanding than a tap!

Pete

PS, and Jon, I agree, there are many, much worse, things going on in the world but that doesn't make this situation OK.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 06:07:34 PM by Vasco DG »

Offline Lannis

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2015, 06:04:20 PM »
That's not my point Lannis, if I've offended someone, I would like them to tell me so and I'll apoligize and stop what ever it was I was doing. If I think your being an asshole you can bet you will know it right away, I won't go whining to HR I'll tell you so. I'd give you a chance to do better. It was a hug, not shooting her the moon.

That's great, if the interaction is BETWEEN YOU AND ME.   BETWEEN "EQUALS".

This is a male manager, IN THE WORKPLACE, with control over the young lady's career and paycheck, offering to press himself physically up against a 24-year-old woman without her permission.   There isn't any "whining" in that case, there isn't any "I'll give you a chance to do better."

Against a guy in a bar who can lay one up against your chin and cold-cock you?   Sure, let's talk it out.   Against a young woman in the workplace, who depends on your good word for her paycheck?   Get your mind right.

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Offline Guzzistajohn

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2015, 06:04:24 PM »
You know Lannis, I must have skimmed over the "make a woman outa you" comment, that is a problem. I stand corrected. He needs to know that's not acceptable.

If it were just the hug, not worth getting shit canned over. Tell him not to do that again and document it.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 06:12:21 PM by Guzzistajohn »
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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2015, 06:06:52 PM »
 We are an amazingly enlightened bunch of motorsickle riders . Kudos .

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Offline Guzzistajohn

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2015, 06:18:07 PM »
There are issues on a number of levels here.

Apart from it being very 'Unprofessional' for a manager to go around touching his subordinates regardless of gender there is also the age difference thing which, I'm sorry, I find creepy. I'm in my late fifties but am still able to fully appreciate the attractiveness of young women but the idea of sleazing up to them and offering 'Hugs' or anything else is totally loathsome and purient! Also, as mentioned there is the 'Power' thing, Manager potentially has the ability to make decisions that will effect the career and future of their subordinates. That means that whether suggested, implied, threatened or not it could be interpreted by the subordinate that there might be repercussions if they didn't comply with the creepy request for physical contact. No employee should be put in that position.

This is not to suggest that there should never be any physical contact. Good lord we're social creatures and in a working environment like a bank or office there are always going to be times when people are reaching up to shelves or into filing cabinets and squeezing past each other in confined spaces but there is a big difference between that and some noxious perv wanting to squeeze his wrinkly old carcass against a young, female subordinate. I'd say the witness has every right to be upset. It's gross! I have no idea if I would of said something but I'd of made a few discreet enquiries around the place to see if it was the sort of thing that happened often and if it was I'd suggest something be done about it. I know if my daughter came home upset after being treated like that I'd be suggesting she make a formal complaint, (And not tell her mother otherwise Jude would probably be down there in about three seconds flat with a pair of pruning shears! She's never liked bullies!).

I'm with Lannis. Creep is an antediluvian throwback! It's the twenty first century! We don't need dickheads like this running anything more demanding than a tap!

Pete

PS, and Jon, I agree, there are many, much worse, things going on in the world but that doesn't make this situation OK.

Pete, I just had a mental picture of YOUR wrinkly old carcass :D
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Offline Bob Wegman

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2015, 08:14:24 PM »
If the situation is brought to HR, I believe a new boss will be in charge shortly.
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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2015, 08:27:47 PM »
The good news is banks have cameras.  Hopefully the ladies can recall the time which this happened.

The bad news is, if this is a smaller bank, then the manager probably has the advantage and will receive the benefit of the doubt with HR and upper management.

Sure, contacting HR is the thing to do.  Just be prepared for nothing to happen to the manager.  Be prepared for a hostile work environment after HR interviews the manager.  Be prepared to have to fight for what's right.  Are they prepared to file a lawsuit if they recieve no joy from HR?

Is a bank teller job worth that fight?  Really?

Banks are on every street corner.  No way I'd want to work in a place that allowed that BS to go unchecked.  I'd be passing my resume around to other banks and be on my way.  It's a job, not a career, and life is too short to have to hassle with this kind of BS.


« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 08:29:47 PM by rocker59 »
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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2015, 08:33:58 PM »
You know Lannis, I must have skimmed over the "make a woman outa you" comment, that is a problem. I stand corrected. He needs to know that's not acceptable.
 

While the comment was in poor taste, we don't even know if the manager is aware of the teller's orientation, or if he even cares.

Lesbians are women, after all, so the comment is a non-starter.

The "forced hug" is where he can get nailed.  But only if it's a larger company with a good HR department and a good policy.

If the manager is the owner's nephew or son-in-law or cousin, well...  Nothing will come of the complaint unless a lawsuit is threatened or filed...

I'd be asking to see the video that we all know exists.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 08:37:23 PM by rocker59 »
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Offline Rich A

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2015, 08:36:53 PM »
Anyone know Mrs. Bank Manager? A word to her offline might get Mr. Bank Manager in some deep and stinky do.

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Offline Lannis

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2015, 08:40:03 PM »

Is a bank teller job worth that fight?  Really?

Banks are on every street corner.  No way I'd want to work in a place that allowed that BS to go unchecked.  I'd be passing my resume around to other banks and be on my way.  It's a job, not a career, and life is too short to have to hassle with this kind of BS.


I agree.  It's just that without a LOT of effort, it's almost impossible for you or I to put ourselves in the place of a 24-year-old female bank teller with a child at home.

You and me?  Sure, we'll either square off with the guy and punch out his lights and walk out singing "Take this Job and Shove It!", or go get another job tomorrow.  No sweat ... for US!

If we had a 24-year-old female bank teller on this forum to give her opinion, well .... But we don't.   We're 95% 35+ year-old white men with good jobs; no way we know what it's like for some  obnoxious creep to be trying sexual domination on us and threaten our paycheck with it.    

That's why the rules, and the process is in place.   Not everyone can just walk out and go on with life as easy as we can ....

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Offline youcanrunnaked

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2015, 08:45:54 PM »
The particular incident your recount suggests harassment based on sexual orientation.  I question whether the law in your jurisdiction considers such to be illegal, or whether the employer's internal policies address whether such is prohibited.
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Offline charlie b

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2015, 08:57:27 PM »
You know Lannis, I must have skimmed over the "make a woman outa you" comment, that is a problem. I stand corrected. He needs to know that's not acceptable.

If it were just the hug, not worth getting shit canned over. Tell him not to do that again and document it.

Sorry, but from those comments he made he KNOWS he is doing unacceptable things and he knows he ismgetting away with it.

I have been through this kind of thing with an employee who could just not control his mouth.  He lasted about 6 months, eve with his appeals. 

It should be reported to HR now.  You have no idea if his actions have been reported before and HR is waiting on confirming reports.

A simple hug, while frequently inappropriate, is not always harassment, but, married with her action and his comments it is.
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Offline bratman2

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2015, 09:33:02 PM »
I work as a supervisor for a major chemical company. Their policy is if you have witnessed anything that could be inappropriate it is your responsibility to report it to HR. Even if the event was not directed at you. Their policy states that if you do nothing then they consider that you condoned the inappropriate behavior. The bank's policy may be totally different. The EEOC has their own take on harassment that I can assure you the heads of that bank do not want to have to deal with. First if they investigate a complaint and find probable cause you do not need a lawyer. They already have plenty at their disposal. Even with our companies policy I am trying to put myself in their position at the bank. The way I see it is total abuse of power over a young woman that most likely needs her job. I am tending to go along with banding together as witnesses if someone wanted to file a complaint with HR. There should be a confidential hot line or other way to make a complaint. Document, document and the ladies need to stick together. Tapes in banks usually only record so much memory at a time. The incident may still be on the tape but will most surely be gone soon. If there HR department is worth a crap and has any sense about what could happen they will act. I feel for the young lady as a father of three grown ladies myself. As a supervisor I do not tolerate inappropriate behavior. Some HR departments, such as ours, actually has a woman that is the corporate worldwide manager. Theirs maybe also! Most likely the only chance of no repercussions is if; all the ladies band together, or he is removed or relocated to another branch, the manager is relieved of his duties.
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Offline HDGoose

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2015, 09:38:06 PM »
My first reaction to the post that Dean read to me was disgust.  Unfortunately it takes aging to get to the place where I am today and would have told the bank manager exactly what he could do with his hug and remarks. When I was 24 I too would have said or done nothing; it was the way of business back then. But not today.

Sexual harassment is not about sex. It’s about power. The power one person has over another as in this instance a manager to a subordinate. The 24 year old feels obligated to accept the behavior for fear of losing her job or being treated badly if she shows any resistance.  It’s tantamount to quid pro quo where women get to keep their jobs if the manager gets to harass them.  And it’s illegal.
Additionally any statement, noise or gestures the manager has made about attractive female customers is sexual harassment not mention cultivating a hostile environment. Again there are laws against it.

I am willing to bet that the bank has a sexual harassment policy in place. It should have been communicated to every employee upon hire and should have clear guidelines (1.) what constitutes harassment and (2.) the steps to take to report the unacceptable behavior.
Tell your wife and the 24 year old to use it and do it now! Tell them to make notes of dates, time and place and any others who may have witnessed the behavior. Tell them to go to HR and verbally require that their discussion be held in strict confidence. (It will be believe me, that is, if the HR dept. has any clue of what it could cost them if they don’t take immediate and appropriate action.)

Neither your wife nor the 24 year old has to confront the manager; that’s HR’s job. They just need to give HR everything they remember about all the instances that have taken place. Then they need to go back to work and see if changes are made. If nothing happens and the behavior continues then have them contact the EEOC.

The EEOC will want all the same information including when and who in HR was notified. The EEOC will take it from there. Nobody at the bank can stop them from taking whatever action they deem necessary to investigate. If the EEOC finds cause, the bank will be penalized and all parties who have filed a claim can obtain attorneys and file civil suits.

Tell your wife not to be afraid, there are at least two who can testify about the manager’s behavior and it needs to stop. 

Dean's wife Cindy


Thanks Cindy. "Evil flourishes when good men do nothing'.

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2015, 10:08:30 PM »
Harassment is harassment no matter what kind nobody should have to tolerate or be uncomfortable in the work place. Since this is a Major Bank, I'm sure this will be resolves rather quickly "If" reported.

Our company has zero tolerance for any form of harassment, we have a 1-800 number to corporate ethics and a investigation is started.

Just two weeks ago we had a branch manager lose his job for harassment, he had only been with our company for a few months and this harassment happened after hours at a bar.....Zero Tolerance!     But of course every company I different..

Offline Hacksaw

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2015, 08:28:43 AM »
[snip]This manager is an abusive, pompous ass, and a "bully" type, who in the past numerous times has said innapropriate comments, mostly regarding  attractive female customers that enter the bank, and on numerous occasions has yelled at and belittled female employees ,even in front of customers.
.....do you think my wife should take any action with HR, etc. or just let it slide?
[snip

Tell her to take action with the HR folks NOW NOW NOW.
She has already "let it slide" way too long.
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Offline Nic in Western NYS

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2015, 10:14:06 AM »
Speaking as someone who is in a position of authority in a business setting, if there is a problem with the highest ranking supervisor on a site, HR should be involved asap.  It is only the poorest performing organizations these days that would regard the described situation as tolerable.  It is a risk management issue as well as a human rights issue.
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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2015, 10:22:35 AM »
 My wife worked as a short order cook and there was always some fooling around in the kitchen. You know,verbal nonsense between adults. One time the owner got a bit touchy with some of the women...My wife said, with a smile, while holding a boning knife, " touch me and I'll cut your f***ing dick off ". The owner got the message.
  People need to initially deal with problems at the personal level...  Women or men who feel they have been harassed need to tell the harasser to get lost. If the harasser doesn't, then call out the dogs.

Offline youcanrunnaked

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2015, 10:28:41 AM »
My wife worked as a short order cook and there was always some fooling around in the kitchen. You know,verbal nonsense between adults. One time the owner got a bit touchy with some of the women...My wife said, with a smile, while holding a boning knife, " touch me and I'll cut your f***ing dick off ". The owner got the message.
  People need to initially deal with problems at the personal level...  Women or men who feel they have been harassed need to tell the harasser to get lost. If the harasser doesn't, then call out the dogs.

The problem with this approach is that if the harasser is in a position of power, they can doctor up a case for discipline or termination of the person who complained.  Then the harasser has a ready defense to any subsequent accusations -- that the person complaining is trying to save their job with false accusations.  While it is hard to believe that in this day and age, this is simply a matter of, "If he knew better, he would do better," this is a management issue and it is for management, not a rank-and-file employee, to make the call whether the offending manager can be rehabilitated or should be let go.
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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2015, 11:41:09 AM »
The problem with this approach is that if the harasser is in a position of power, they can doctor up a case for discipline or termination of the person who complained.  Then the harasser has a ready defense to any subsequent accusations -- that the person complaining is trying to save their job with false accusations.  While it is hard to believe that in this day and age, this is simply a matter of, "If he knew better, he would do better," this is a management issue and it is for management, not a rank-and-file employee, to make the call whether the offending manager can be rehabilitated or should be let go.

 Sometimes you have to man up ,do what has to be done and take your chances. If someone was bulling you,and sexual harassment is bulling, would would confront the bully? Besides most states,like NY, are  "at will employment".. meaning the employer needs no reason to terminate employment unless there is contract stating otherwise.

Offline Pasta Hog

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2015, 11:55:48 AM »
Employment lawyer here. The correct answer to questions like these is always "consult with a qualified attorney." The law is not simple. There is a reason why law school lasts three years. Internet forum posts from laymen are totally useless and more likely to do harm than good.

Unless things have changed, there is a very short time period during which a plaintiff can take action.
People who claim they don't have ten seconds to answer your stupid questions can always find several minutes to criticize them.

Offline youcanrunnaked

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Re: Sexual harrasment at work question ( ngc)
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2015, 12:22:25 PM »
Sometimes you have to man up ,do what has to be done and take your chances. If someone was bulling you,and sexual harassment is bulling, would would confront the bully? Besides most states,like NY, are  "at will employment".. meaning the employer needs no reason to terminate employment unless there is contract stating otherwise.

"Man up?"  In a thread about harassment of women?  Good grief!  ::)

Speaking from 30 years' experience as a labor and employment law attorney, I think you are being naive.  Any guy today who routinely harasses women in the workplace knows exactly what he is doing, and exactly what to do to build a case for discharge against an underling who speaks to him about it "privately" (i.e., without witnesses) and thereby identifies herself as a litigation threat.  At-will employment is irrelevant to this point.  Firing an employee for "any or no reason" is not going to cut it as a defense to a sex discrimination lawsuit.  A manger who thinks he is at risk for such a charge is quite capable of papering an employee's file in anticipation of defending such a lawsuit -- at least if nobody from HR or upper management knows of the harassment.  That's one of many reasons why upper management and/or HR needs to get involved.

"Take your chances?"  Why should anyone have to put their employment at risk when it is THEIR legal rights that are being violated?  To satisfy your personal notion of fair play?  This is not a misunderstanding between friends, or a minor dispute among neighbors, where the parties are on equal footing and can "talk it out."  Sexual harassment is an abuse of authority; the act itself betrays any notions of fair play.  It is not a personal matter -- it is a personnel matter, and the appropriate management employees in charge of such matters should be given the necessary information so they can do their jobs.
"The transverse vibration is a great sensation -- hey, I think I just wrote a song!"
-- Billy Joel, Motorcyclist, 02/2012

"If Moto Guzzi were any more of a cult, you'd need a chicken."
--- Dan Neil, The Wall Street Journal, 04/19/2013

 

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